|
I quickly realized I should have changed the title line as "Gail" piggybacked my lubrication problem? with a completely different problem. SORRY!
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 08:03:04 AM PST, Wayne Tarling <tarlingw@...> wrote:
I am not an audio electronics person.? I think you should provide a lot more information for anyone to begin to assist.? I assume you are referring to the purpose-built Leslie that the high pitch is coming from(?).? This Leslie is solid state.? What is this "high pitch" you refer to?? ? How long has it had this problem?? ? Does the volume of the high pitch follow the swell?? ? Are you an electronics person?? ? Do you have the "Hammond X77 and X77GT Manual"?? ? ? ?Where are you?? Have you looked for a Hammond tech? You say you have been "unable to eliminate".? What have you done to this organ so far?
I am curious to know what the problem is as many of the techs on this forum may be ...but information is very helpful to get the ball rolling.
On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 06:50:21 PM PST, Gail Wrighter via groups.io <gwrighte@...> wrote:
i have a high pitch coming out of my X 77 and an unable to eliminate. It seems to be coming out of the lower front speaker. Any suggestions for anyone.
On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 06:40:45 PM EST, Wayne Tarling via groups.io <tarlingw@...> wrote:
Thanks for this Chris
You pretty well nailed exactly what I had done.? I did not want to mention this for fear anything said might influence anyone to not respond if they had a different way of tackling this problem.
The organ is the X-77 with both the matching Leslie and a 147.
Trying to isolate an area where the "noise" was coming from, was only guessing when sitting on the bench.? When looking at the assembly from the back, with the top "plate" attached, it was pretty well impossible to see let alone try to figure out a way to identify the culprit bearing(s). The only "easy" way to access under this plate was to cut each of the wires on the "inner side" of the top plate (the side toward the keyboard).? There was only the one lead on this side, on each "bank" going to either a cap or cap/coil assy ....so 24 in all.? This allowed me to lift the one side of the plate to expose the entire tonewheel assembly.
Then using an extension cord (to control power on/off from the back), very quick connection to power just to initiate some "spinning", I could not only immediately confirm the noise coming from the RHS (I'm now at the back looking forward), but immediately straight to the "area" ....as the spin slowed.? I only needed/wanted a slow spin and then coast to a stop, rather than the whole tone wheel area screaming/squealing and noise coming from all over the place ...because the noise can simply transmit down the culprit shaft(s) as well.
I could not tell "which" bearing(s) were making the noise.
Because the bearing noise is likely due to a "dry" condition and also potentially now an over-size or obround shaft/bearing clearance condition, my preference was to use a heavier weight, more viscous oil rather than the Hammond oil.? My understanding is the Hammond oil is designed to used for "wicking". Additives like waxes would eventually hinder the wicking? ....but if applying directly to a bearing, this is not a concern.
I used the most viscous lube I have which is a 30W Way Oil ...which is design to "stick" to/on "ways" found on machine tools (lathes, mills, etc). I used a syringe to apply directly on one bearing at a time ("design of experiments" principles).? I started on the end bearing closest to me, and applied a little lube on both sides (ends) of the bearing and quickly applied power and immediately disconnected ..again, just to get the tonewheel assy turning to make the noise.? This first bearing changed nothing.? This is a "lay shaft", so the opposite end then needed the same treatment. Again, a quick/short power up, changed nothing.
The "next" reachable shaft in this "first bank" was on the opposite side (toward the keys), again, a lay shaft.? When repeating the procedure, I immediately identified a change to the noise from the outside bearing. It was significantly reduced.? I then repeated on the bearing on the opposite end of this lay shaft and the noise all but disappeared.? I had found the primary culprit bearings as being the lay shaft at the opposite end of the drive motor.
However, not ALL the noise was gone. As it turned out, the next bearing, furthest away from oiling point, was on the drive shaft.? An application of oil on this one bearing and ALL the noise was gone.
I have since let the organ run for several hours and turned off to allow it to cool, and repeated this few times now.? There has been one instance where a very faint noise has started, which prompted me to add some lube to all three bearings ...and herein lies the problem of potentially needed to continually need to add lubrication to these three bearings.? ?If this is what needs to be done, then I will design some kind of system that will put lube directly on to these three bearings when needed.
At one point I looked at the entire assy and recognized this is NOT a "friendly" assy to work with. As you pointed out, Hammond would have jigs and fixtures along with a very elaborate assy instruction.
What I am wondering is if there is a lubrication product that is designed to "fill" voids or "over-size" conditions, that might offer some form of a more permanent "repair" to worn bearings. This would be "shaft-to-bearing" fit.? Something that might be perhaps "anerobic"?? ? ? Would anyone know if there is such a product available specifically for worn bearings?? ?I have looked and found different products, but I can't tell if they are for this kind of "repair" or they are meant to be applied to the outside (OD) of the bearing only.
I have used a 30W lubrication with success.? I could easily consider 50W lube as well ...but my quest is a permanent fix.
Anyone have any other ideas?
Thanks Wayne
PS - now that the tone wheel assembly is fully exposed, I will be applying oil to every bearing from both sides. If may not be necessary, but there should be no harm to doing this ....unless someone knows otherwise.? I look forward to any comments with previous experience/successes.
On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 11:10:11 AM PST, Chris Clifton <clifton.christopher@...> wrote:
Although I've come across several instances of noisy, and even
seized bearings, these have all responded to lubrication. Often
the best way to get oil where it's needed without waiting for it
to make its way through the oiling wicks is to use a syringe to
apply a drop of oil directly to each bearing. Depending on the
model of organ it may be necessary to disconnect some of the
wiring to the generator to be able to move the generator to get
access to the underside.
I doubt that there is any practicable way of replacing bearings,
the amount of work involved in dismantling, and more importantly
reassembling a generator would make it difficult if not impossible
to replace bearings. Indeed, I'm by no means certain that it's
even possible to reassemble a generator without the original
factory tooling and jigs. I'd consider any tone wheel generator
that had bearings so badly worn as to require replacement as
beyond economic repair
On 02/02/2023 18:07, Wayne Tarling via
groups.io wrote:.
Hello Community
I haven't heard much about
"bearing problems" in any of the discussions. A few messages
about Hammond lube (which I have lots of), but nothing about
"failed bearings".
Considering there are some
144 or more bearings, has anyone had a problem with a "failed"
bearing?? If so, is there any easy "fix" per se.
I won't go into a lot of
detail yet, particularly if there is indeed an easy fix.
If more information is
needed, I can certainly provide a lot more detail of what the
problem is and what I have done ....so far.
Regards to all.
Wayne
|
I'm far froman electronic tech. High pich has been there for quite a while. Have oiled everything. Doesn't change with the swell but get louder with the celeste. Can play but I can hear the high pitch and is very annoying. There are no Hammond techs in my area. (Southern Tier of NY) Have puttered with manybthings hoping to fall over the problem. Organ is 55 yrs. old.
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 11:06:11 AM EST, Wayne Tarling via groups.io <tarlingw@...> wrote:
I quickly realized I should have changed the title line as "Gail" piggybacked my lubrication problem? with a completely different problem. SORRY!
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 08:03:04 AM PST, Wayne Tarling <tarlingw@...> wrote:
I am not an audio electronics person.? I think you should provide a lot more information for anyone to begin to assist.? I assume you are referring to the purpose-built Leslie that the high pitch is coming from(?).? This Leslie is solid state.? What is this "high pitch" you refer to?? ? How long has it had this problem?? ? Does the volume of the high pitch follow the swell?? ? Are you an electronics person?? ? Do you have the "Hammond X77 and X77GT Manual"?? ? ? ?Where are you?? Have you looked for a Hammond tech? You say you have been "unable to eliminate".? What have you done to this organ so far?
I am curious to know what the problem is as many of the techs on this forum may be ...but information is very helpful to get the ball rolling.
On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 06:50:21 PM PST, Gail Wrighter via groups.io <gwrighte@...> wrote:
i have a high pitch coming out of my X 77 and an unable to eliminate. It seems to be coming out of the lower front speaker. Any suggestions for anyone.
On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 06:40:45 PM EST, Wayne Tarling via groups.io <tarlingw@...> wrote:
Thanks for this Chris
You pretty well nailed exactly what I had done.? I did not want to mention this for fear anything said might influence anyone to not respond if they had a different way of tackling this problem.
The organ is the X-77 with both the matching Leslie and a 147.
Trying to isolate an area where the "noise" was coming from, was only guessing when sitting on the bench.? When looking at the assembly from the back, with the top "plate" attached, it was pretty well impossible to see let alone try to figure out a way to identify the culprit bearing(s). The only "easy" way to access under this plate was to cut each of the wires on the "inner side" of the top plate (the side toward the keyboard).? There was only the one lead on this side, on each "bank" going to either a cap or cap/coil assy ....so 24 in all.? This allowed me to lift the one side of the plate to expose the entire tonewheel assembly.
Then using an extension cord (to control power on/off from the back), very quick connection to power just to initiate some "spinning", I could not only immediately confirm the noise coming from the RHS (I'm now at the back looking forward), but immediately straight to the "area" ....as the spin slowed.? I only needed/wanted a slow spin and then coast to a stop, rather than the whole tone wheel area screaming/squealing and noise coming from all over the place ...because the noise can simply transmit down the culprit shaft(s) as well.
I could not tell "which" bearing(s) were making the noise.
Because the bearing noise is likely due to a "dry" condition and also potentially now an over-size or obround shaft/bearing clearance condition, my preference was to use a heavier weight, more viscous oil rather than the Hammond oil.? My understanding is the Hammond oil is designed to used for "wicking". Additives like waxes would eventually hinder the wicking? ....but if applying directly to a bearing, this is not a concern.
I used the most viscous lube I have which is a 30W Way Oil ...which is design to "stick" to/on "ways" found on machine tools (lathes, mills, etc). I used a syringe to apply directly on one bearing at a time ("design of experiments" principles).? I started on the end bearing closest to me, and applied a little lube on both sides (ends) of the bearing and quickly applied power and immediately disconnected ..again, just to get the tonewheel assy turning to make the noise.? This first bearing changed nothing.? This is a "lay shaft", so the opposite end then needed the same treatment. Again, a quick/short power up, changed nothing.
The "next" reachable shaft in this "first bank" was on the opposite side (toward the keys), again, a lay shaft.? When repeating the procedure, I immediately identified a change to the noise from the outside bearing. It was significantly reduced.? I then repeated on the bearing on the opposite end of this lay shaft and the noise all but disappeared.? I had found the primary culprit bearings as being the lay shaft at the opposite end of the drive motor.
However, not ALL the noise was gone. As it turned out, the next bearing, furthest away from oiling point, was on the drive shaft.? An application of oil on this one bearing and ALL the noise was gone.
I have since let the organ run for several hours and turned off to allow it to cool, and repeated this few times now.? There has been one instance where a very faint noise has started, which prompted me to add some lube to all three bearings ...and herein lies the problem of potentially needed to continually need to add lubrication to these three bearings.? ?If this is what needs to be done, then I will design some kind of system that will put lube directly on to these three bearings when needed.
At one point I looked at the entire assy and recognized this is NOT a "friendly" assy to work with. As you pointed out, Hammond would have jigs and fixtures along with a very elaborate assy instruction.
What I am wondering is if there is a lubrication product that is designed to "fill" voids or "over-size" conditions, that might offer some form of a more permanent "repair" to worn bearings. This would be "shaft-to-bearing" fit.? Something that might be perhaps "anerobic"?? ? ? Would anyone know if there is such a product available specifically for worn bearings?? ?I have looked and found different products, but I can't tell if they are for this kind of "repair" or they are meant to be applied to the outside (OD) of the bearing only.
I have used a 30W lubrication with success.? I could easily consider 50W lube as well ...but my quest is a permanent fix.
Anyone have any other ideas?
Thanks Wayne
PS - now that the tone wheel assembly is fully exposed, I will be applying oil to every bearing from both sides. If may not be necessary, but there should be no harm to doing this ....unless someone knows otherwise.? I look forward to any comments with previous experience/successes.
On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 11:10:11 AM PST, Chris Clifton <clifton.christopher@...> wrote:
Although I've come across several instances of noisy, and even
seized bearings, these have all responded to lubrication. Often
the best way to get oil where it's needed without waiting for it
to make its way through the oiling wicks is to use a syringe to
apply a drop of oil directly to each bearing. Depending on the
model of organ it may be necessary to disconnect some of the
wiring to the generator to be able to move the generator to get
access to the underside.
I doubt that there is any practicable way of replacing bearings,
the amount of work involved in dismantling, and more importantly
reassembling a generator would make it difficult if not impossible
to replace bearings. Indeed, I'm by no means certain that it's
even possible to reassemble a generator without the original
factory tooling and jigs. I'd consider any tone wheel generator
that had bearings so badly worn as to require replacement as
beyond economic repair
On 02/02/2023 18:07, Wayne Tarling via
groups.io wrote:.
Hello Community
I haven't heard much about
"bearing problems" in any of the discussions. A few messages
about Hammond lube (which I have lots of), but nothing about
"failed bearings".
Considering there are some
144 or more bearings, has anyone had a problem with a "failed"
bearing?? If so, is there any easy "fix" per se.
I won't go into a lot of
detail yet, particularly if there is indeed an easy fix.
If more information is
needed, I can certainly provide a lot more detail of what the
problem is and what I have done ....so far.
Regards to all.
Wayne
|
Well, if I can be blunt, this is something you are not qualified to be working on.? "Puttering" can be very dangerous for you and more importantly, the organ.? What does "a while" mean when mentioning how long the problem has existed.? ?How long have you owned this organ?? If you have owned the organ for one year and it had this high pitch from day one ...then who knows how long the problem has existed and was probably the reason why it was sold to you ...or ...you have owned it for 55 years ...and the high pitch just started last week ....or you have been living with it for 45 years. (INFORMATION!)
If there are no Hammond techs in your area you need to either 1) do a search for the next closest Hammond tech using the internet, or 2) find an audio tech in your city or via internet.? ?I think the latter is the likely path.
This sounds like a hands-on task in order to "find" the source of the problem and that can't begin until you have the manual ....which you did not answer.? Remember, if you want help, people who know these organs need to have an idea of where to start.? It sounds like is could be a filter, but your info about "Celeste" could be very telling to a tech.? ? ?I think this might be a signal source problem.? You are NOT going to "fall over the problem".
I'm on the opposite side of the continent ..Vancouver, B.C. Canada.? ?Are you experiencing this new Arctic flow?? ?We are at a balmy 5¡ãC right now.
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 08:12:10 AM PST, Gail Wrighter via groups.io <gwrighte@...> wrote:
I'm far froman electronic tech. High pich has been there for quite a while. Have oiled everything. Doesn't change with the swell but get louder with the celeste. Can play but I can hear the high pitch and is very annoying. There are no Hammond techs in my area. (Southern Tier of NY) Have puttered with manybthings hoping to fall over the problem. Organ is 55 yrs. old.
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 11:06:11 AM EST, Wayne Tarling via groups.io <tarlingw@...> wrote:
I quickly realized I should have changed the title line as "Gail" piggybacked my lubrication problem? with a completely different problem. SORRY!
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 08:03:04 AM PST, Wayne Tarling <tarlingw@...> wrote:
I am not an audio electronics person.? I think you should provide a lot more information for anyone to begin to assist.? I assume you are referring to the purpose-built Leslie that the high pitch is coming from(?).? This Leslie is solid state.? What is this "high pitch" you refer to?? ? How long has it had this problem?? ? Does the volume of the high pitch follow the swell?? ? Are you an electronics person?? ? Do you have the "Hammond X77 and X77GT Manual"?? ? ? ?Where are you?? Have you looked for a Hammond tech? You say you have been "unable to eliminate".? What have you done to this organ so far?
I am curious to know what the problem is as many of the techs on this forum may be ...but information is very helpful to get the ball rolling.
On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 06:50:21 PM PST, Gail Wrighter via groups.io <gwrighte@...> wrote:
i have a high pitch coming out of my X 77 and an unable to eliminate. It seems to be coming out of the lower front speaker. Any suggestions for anyone.
On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 06:40:45 PM EST, Wayne Tarling via groups.io <tarlingw@...> wrote:
Thanks for this Chris
You pretty well nailed exactly what I had done.? I did not want to mention this for fear anything said might influence anyone to not respond if they had a different way of tackling this problem.
The organ is the X-77 with both the matching Leslie and a 147.
Trying to isolate an area where the "noise" was coming from, was only guessing when sitting on the bench.? When looking at the assembly from the back, with the top "plate" attached, it was pretty well impossible to see let alone try to figure out a way to identify the culprit bearing(s). The only "easy" way to access under this plate was to cut each of the wires on the "inner side" of the top plate (the side toward the keyboard).? There was only the one lead on this side, on each "bank" going to either a cap or cap/coil assy ....so 24 in all.? This allowed me to lift the one side of the plate to expose the entire tonewheel assembly.
Then using an extension cord (to control power on/off from the back), very quick connection to power just to initiate some "spinning", I could not only immediately confirm the noise coming from the RHS (I'm now at the back looking forward), but immediately straight to the "area" ....as the spin slowed.? I only needed/wanted a slow spin and then coast to a stop, rather than the whole tone wheel area screaming/squealing and noise coming from all over the place ...because the noise can simply transmit down the culprit shaft(s) as well.
I could not tell "which" bearing(s) were making the noise.
Because the bearing noise is likely due to a "dry" condition and also potentially now an over-size or obround shaft/bearing clearance condition, my preference was to use a heavier weight, more viscous oil rather than the Hammond oil.? My understanding is the Hammond oil is designed to used for "wicking". Additives like waxes would eventually hinder the wicking? ....but if applying directly to a bearing, this is not a concern.
I used the most viscous lube I have which is a 30W Way Oil ...which is design to "stick" to/on "ways" found on machine tools (lathes, mills, etc). I used a syringe to apply directly on one bearing at a time ("design of experiments" principles).? I started on the end bearing closest to me, and applied a little lube on both sides (ends) of the bearing and quickly applied power and immediately disconnected ..again, just to get the tonewheel assy turning to make the noise.? This first bearing changed nothing.? This is a "lay shaft", so the opposite end then needed the same treatment. Again, a quick/short power up, changed nothing.
The "next" reachable shaft in this "first bank" was on the opposite side (toward the keys), again, a lay shaft.? When repeating the procedure, I immediately identified a change to the noise from the outside bearing. It was significantly reduced.? I then repeated on the bearing on the opposite end of this lay shaft and the noise all but disappeared.? I had found the primary culprit bearings as being the lay shaft at the opposite end of the drive motor.
However, not ALL the noise was gone. As it turned out, the next bearing, furthest away from oiling point, was on the drive shaft.? An application of oil on this one bearing and ALL the noise was gone.
I have since let the organ run for several hours and turned off to allow it to cool, and repeated this few times now.? There has been one instance where a very faint noise has started, which prompted me to add some lube to all three bearings ...and herein lies the problem of potentially needed to continually need to add lubrication to these three bearings.? ?If this is what needs to be done, then I will design some kind of system that will put lube directly on to these three bearings when needed.
At one point I looked at the entire assy and recognized this is NOT a "friendly" assy to work with. As you pointed out, Hammond would have jigs and fixtures along with a very elaborate assy instruction.
What I am wondering is if there is a lubrication product that is designed to "fill" voids or "over-size" conditions, that might offer some form of a more permanent "repair" to worn bearings. This would be "shaft-to-bearing" fit.? Something that might be perhaps "anerobic"?? ? ? Would anyone know if there is such a product available specifically for worn bearings?? ?I have looked and found different products, but I can't tell if they are for this kind of "repair" or they are meant to be applied to the outside (OD) of the bearing only.
I have used a 30W lubrication with success.? I could easily consider 50W lube as well ...but my quest is a permanent fix.
Anyone have any other ideas?
Thanks Wayne
PS - now that the tone wheel assembly is fully exposed, I will be applying oil to every bearing from both sides. If may not be necessary, but there should be no harm to doing this ....unless someone knows otherwise.? I look forward to any comments with previous experience/successes.
On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 11:10:11 AM PST, Chris Clifton <clifton.christopher@...> wrote:
Although I've come across several instances of noisy, and even
seized bearings, these have all responded to lubrication. Often
the best way to get oil where it's needed without waiting for it
to make its way through the oiling wicks is to use a syringe to
apply a drop of oil directly to each bearing. Depending on the
model of organ it may be necessary to disconnect some of the
wiring to the generator to be able to move the generator to get
access to the underside.
I doubt that there is any practicable way of replacing bearings,
the amount of work involved in dismantling, and more importantly
reassembling a generator would make it difficult if not impossible
to replace bearings. Indeed, I'm by no means certain that it's
even possible to reassemble a generator without the original
factory tooling and jigs. I'd consider any tone wheel generator
that had bearings so badly worn as to require replacement as
beyond economic repair
On 02/02/2023 18:07, Wayne Tarling via
groups.io wrote:.
Hello Community
I haven't heard much about
"bearing problems" in any of the discussions. A few messages
about Hammond lube (which I have lots of), but nothing about
"failed bearings".
Considering there are some
144 or more bearings, has anyone had a problem with a "failed"
bearing?? If so, is there any easy "fix" per se.
I won't go into a lot of
detail yet, particularly if there is indeed an easy fix.
If more information is
needed, I can certainly provide a lot more detail of what the
problem is and what I have done ....so far.
Regards to all.
Wayne
|
WHite Face mountain, not far from where I live, Is -40 right now.Could hit -100 degrees wind chill tonight/tomorrow. It's 9 here with 30 MPH winds. Staying indoors for sure. Manual---can't read it. I've owned it for 55 yrs. Parents bought if for me in 1968. Only been in 2 homes and moved only once. Beautiful piece of furniture. Is a 77L speaker. Appreciate your time.
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 11:36:27 AM EST, Wayne Tarling via groups.io <tarlingw@...> wrote:
Well, if I can be blunt, this is something you are not qualified to be working on.? "Puttering" can be very dangerous for you and more importantly, the organ.? What does "a while" mean when mentioning how long the problem has existed.? ?How long have you owned this organ?? If you have owned the organ for one year and it had this high pitch from day one ...then who knows how long the problem has existed and was probably the reason why it was sold to you ...or ...you have owned it for 55 years ...and the high pitch just started last week ....or you have been living with it for 45 years. (INFORMATION!)
If there are no Hammond techs in your area you need to either 1) do a search for the next closest Hammond tech using the internet, or 2) find an audio tech in your city or via internet.? ?I think the latter is the likely path.
This sounds like a hands-on task in order to "find" the source of the problem and that can't begin until you have the manual ....which you did not answer.? Remember, if you want help, people who know these organs need to have an idea of where to start.? It sounds like is could be a filter, but your info about "Celeste" could be very telling to a tech.? ? ?I think this might be a signal source problem.? You are NOT going to "fall over the problem".
I'm on the opposite side of the continent ..Vancouver, B.C. Canada.? ?Are you experiencing this new Arctic flow?? ?We are at a balmy 5¡ãC right now.
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 08:12:10 AM PST, Gail Wrighter via groups.io <gwrighte@...> wrote:
I'm far froman electronic tech. High pich has been there for quite a while. Have oiled everything. Doesn't change with the swell but get louder with the celeste. Can play but I can hear the high pitch and is very annoying. There are no Hammond techs in my area. (Southern Tier of NY) Have puttered with manybthings hoping to fall over the problem. Organ is 55 yrs. old.
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 11:06:11 AM EST, Wayne Tarling via groups.io <tarlingw@...> wrote:
I quickly realized I should have changed the title line as "Gail" piggybacked my lubrication problem? with a completely different problem. SORRY!
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 08:03:04 AM PST, Wayne Tarling <tarlingw@...> wrote:
I am not an audio electronics person.? I think you should provide a lot more information for anyone to begin to assist.? I assume you are referring to the purpose-built Leslie that the high pitch is coming from(?).? This Leslie is solid state.? What is this "high pitch" you refer to?? ? How long has it had this problem?? ? Does the volume of the high pitch follow the swell?? ? Are you an electronics person?? ? Do you have the "Hammond X77 and X77GT Manual"?? ? ? ?Where are you?? Have you looked for a Hammond tech? You say you have been "unable to eliminate".? What have you done to this organ so far?
I am curious to know what the problem is as many of the techs on this forum may be ...but information is very helpful to get the ball rolling.
On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 06:50:21 PM PST, Gail Wrighter via groups.io <gwrighte@...> wrote:
i have a high pitch coming out of my X 77 and an unable to eliminate. It seems to be coming out of the lower front speaker. Any suggestions for anyone.
On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 06:40:45 PM EST, Wayne Tarling via groups.io <tarlingw@...> wrote:
Thanks for this Chris
You pretty well nailed exactly what I had done.? I did not want to mention this for fear anything said might influence anyone to not respond if they had a different way of tackling this problem.
The organ is the X-77 with both the matching Leslie and a 147.
Trying to isolate an area where the "noise" was coming from, was only guessing when sitting on the bench.? When looking at the assembly from the back, with the top "plate" attached, it was pretty well impossible to see let alone try to figure out a way to identify the culprit bearing(s). The only "easy" way to access under this plate was to cut each of the wires on the "inner side" of the top plate (the side toward the keyboard).? There was only the one lead on this side, on each "bank" going to either a cap or cap/coil assy ....so 24 in all.? This allowed me to lift the one side of the plate to expose the entire tonewheel assembly.
Then using an extension cord (to control power on/off from the back), very quick connection to power just to initiate some "spinning", I could not only immediately confirm the noise coming from the RHS (I'm now at the back looking forward), but immediately straight to the "area" ....as the spin slowed.? I only needed/wanted a slow spin and then coast to a stop, rather than the whole tone wheel area screaming/squealing and noise coming from all over the place ...because the noise can simply transmit down the culprit shaft(s) as well.
I could not tell "which" bearing(s) were making the noise.
Because the bearing noise is likely due to a "dry" condition and also potentially now an over-size or obround shaft/bearing clearance condition, my preference was to use a heavier weight, more viscous oil rather than the Hammond oil.? My understanding is the Hammond oil is designed to used for "wicking". Additives like waxes would eventually hinder the wicking? ....but if applying directly to a bearing, this is not a concern.
I used the most viscous lube I have which is a 30W Way Oil ...which is design to "stick" to/on "ways" found on machine tools (lathes, mills, etc). I used a syringe to apply directly on one bearing at a time ("design of experiments" principles).? I started on the end bearing closest to me, and applied a little lube on both sides (ends) of the bearing and quickly applied power and immediately disconnected ..again, just to get the tonewheel assy turning to make the noise.? This first bearing changed nothing.? This is a "lay shaft", so the opposite end then needed the same treatment. Again, a quick/short power up, changed nothing.
The "next" reachable shaft in this "first bank" was on the opposite side (toward the keys), again, a lay shaft.? When repeating the procedure, I immediately identified a change to the noise from the outside bearing. It was significantly reduced.? I then repeated on the bearing on the opposite end of this lay shaft and the noise all but disappeared.? I had found the primary culprit bearings as being the lay shaft at the opposite end of the drive motor.
However, not ALL the noise was gone. As it turned out, the next bearing, furthest away from oiling point, was on the drive shaft.? An application of oil on this one bearing and ALL the noise was gone.
I have since let the organ run for several hours and turned off to allow it to cool, and repeated this few times now.? There has been one instance where a very faint noise has started, which prompted me to add some lube to all three bearings ...and herein lies the problem of potentially needed to continually need to add lubrication to these three bearings.? ?If this is what needs to be done, then I will design some kind of system that will put lube directly on to these three bearings when needed.
At one point I looked at the entire assy and recognized this is NOT a "friendly" assy to work with. As you pointed out, Hammond would have jigs and fixtures along with a very elaborate assy instruction.
What I am wondering is if there is a lubrication product that is designed to "fill" voids or "over-size" conditions, that might offer some form of a more permanent "repair" to worn bearings. This would be "shaft-to-bearing" fit.? Something that might be perhaps "anerobic"?? ? ? Would anyone know if there is such a product available specifically for worn bearings?? ?I have looked and found different products, but I can't tell if they are for this kind of "repair" or they are meant to be applied to the outside (OD) of the bearing only.
I have used a 30W lubrication with success.? I could easily consider 50W lube as well ...but my quest is a permanent fix.
Anyone have any other ideas?
Thanks Wayne
PS - now that the tone wheel assembly is fully exposed, I will be applying oil to every bearing from both sides. If may not be necessary, but there should be no harm to doing this ....unless someone knows otherwise.? I look forward to any comments with previous experience/successes.
On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 11:10:11 AM PST, Chris Clifton <clifton.christopher@...> wrote:
Although I've come across several instances of noisy, and even
seized bearings, these have all responded to lubrication. Often
the best way to get oil where it's needed without waiting for it
to make its way through the oiling wicks is to use a syringe to
apply a drop of oil directly to each bearing. Depending on the
model of organ it may be necessary to disconnect some of the
wiring to the generator to be able to move the generator to get
access to the underside.
I doubt that there is any practicable way of replacing bearings,
the amount of work involved in dismantling, and more importantly
reassembling a generator would make it difficult if not impossible
to replace bearings. Indeed, I'm by no means certain that it's
even possible to reassemble a generator without the original
factory tooling and jigs. I'd consider any tone wheel generator
that had bearings so badly worn as to require replacement as
beyond economic repair
On 02/02/2023 18:07, Wayne Tarling via
groups.io wrote:.
Hello Community
I haven't heard much about
"bearing problems" in any of the discussions. A few messages
about Hammond lube (which I have lots of), but nothing about
"failed bearings".
Considering there are some
144 or more bearings, has anyone had a problem with a "failed"
bearing?? If so, is there any easy "fix" per se.
I won't go into a lot of
detail yet, particularly if there is indeed an easy fix.
If more information is
needed, I can certainly provide a lot more detail of what the
problem is and what I have done ....so far.
Regards to all.
Wayne
|
WHOOOOOOE ....had to look that up ...in NY
Are you used to those temps???
Is this the 145 page manual? If it is, this is what a tech would need. This is available online ...which you can easily reference and have a teck pickup for their review.
Original owner ...nice. I would look for an audio tech as close by as possible ...or use this forum to try to connect up with someone who knows Hammond.? You may have to supply this manual to help them analyze the possible causes.? It might be a simple as removing a module or section and sending this to a repair shop.? ?I think this would be most cost effective option ....if a person can identify the most likely or perhaps even obvious cause.
The most work facing you is perhaps finding an audio electronics repair shop within a reasonable distance. If you connect, let them ask the questions and they will provide guidance.
Get that fireplace going for tonight 
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 01:29:59 PM PST, Gail Wrighter via groups.io <gwrighte@...> wrote:
WHite Face mountain, not far from where I live, Is -40 right now.Could hit -100 degrees wind chill tonight/tomorrow. It's 9 here with 30 MPH winds. Staying indoors for sure. Manual---can't read it. I've owned it for 55 yrs. Parents bought if for me in 1968. Only been in 2 homes and moved only once. Beautiful piece of furniture. Is a 77L speaker. Appreciate your time.
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 11:36:27 AM EST, Wayne Tarling via groups.io <tarlingw@...> wrote:
Well, if I can be blunt, this is something you are not qualified to be working on.? "Puttering" can be very dangerous for you and more importantly, the organ.? What does "a while" mean when mentioning how long the problem has existed.? ?How long have you owned this organ?? If you have owned the organ for one year and it had this high pitch from day one ...then who knows how long the problem has existed and was probably the reason why it was sold to you ...or ...you have owned it for 55 years ...and the high pitch just started last week ....or you have been living with it for 45 years. (INFORMATION!)
If there are no Hammond techs in your area you need to either 1) do a search for the next closest Hammond tech using the internet, or 2) find an audio tech in your city or via internet.? ?I think the latter is the likely path.
This sounds like a hands-on task in order to "find" the source of the problem and that can't begin until you have the manual ....which you did not answer.? Remember, if you want help, people who know these organs need to have an idea of where to start.? It sounds like is could be a filter, but your info about "Celeste" could be very telling to a tech.? ? ?I think this might be a signal source problem.? You are NOT going to "fall over the problem".
I'm on the opposite side of the continent ..Vancouver, B.C. Canada.? ?Are you experiencing this new Arctic flow?? ?We are at a balmy 5¡ãC right now.
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 08:12:10 AM PST, Gail Wrighter via groups.io <gwrighte@...> wrote:
I'm far froman electronic tech. High pich has been there for quite a while. Have oiled everything. Doesn't change with the swell but get louder with the celeste. Can play but I can hear the high pitch and is very annoying. There are no Hammond techs in my area. (Southern Tier of NY) Have puttered with manybthings hoping to fall over the problem. Organ is 55 yrs. old.
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 11:06:11 AM EST, Wayne Tarling via groups.io <tarlingw@...> wrote:
I quickly realized I should have changed the title line as "Gail" piggybacked my lubrication problem? with a completely different problem. SORRY!
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 08:03:04 AM PST, Wayne Tarling <tarlingw@...> wrote:
I am not an audio electronics person.? I think you should provide a lot more information for anyone to begin to assist.? I assume you are referring to the purpose-built Leslie that the high pitch is coming from(?).? This Leslie is solid state.? What is this "high pitch" you refer to?? ? How long has it had this problem?? ? Does the volume of the high pitch follow the swell?? ? Are you an electronics person?? ? Do you have the "Hammond X77 and X77GT Manual"?? ? ? ?Where are you?? Have you looked for a Hammond tech? You say you have been "unable to eliminate".? What have you done to this organ so far?
I am curious to know what the problem is as many of the techs on this forum may be ...but information is very helpful to get the ball rolling.
On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 06:50:21 PM PST, Gail Wrighter via groups.io <gwrighte@...> wrote:
i have a high pitch coming out of my X 77 and an unable to eliminate. It seems to be coming out of the lower front speaker. Any suggestions for anyone.
On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 06:40:45 PM EST, Wayne Tarling via groups.io <tarlingw@...> wrote:
Thanks for this Chris
You pretty well nailed exactly what I had done.? I did not want to mention this for fear anything said might influence anyone to not respond if they had a different way of tackling this problem.
The organ is the X-77 with both the matching Leslie and a 147.
Trying to isolate an area where the "noise" was coming from, was only guessing when sitting on the bench.? When looking at the assembly from the back, with the top "plate" attached, it was pretty well impossible to see let alone try to figure out a way to identify the culprit bearing(s). The only "easy" way to access under this plate was to cut each of the wires on the "inner side" of the top plate (the side toward the keyboard).? There was only the one lead on this side, on each "bank" going to either a cap or cap/coil assy ....so 24 in all.? This allowed me to lift the one side of the plate to expose the entire tonewheel assembly.
Then using an extension cord (to control power on/off from the back), very quick connection to power just to initiate some "spinning", I could not only immediately confirm the noise coming from the RHS (I'm now at the back looking forward), but immediately straight to the "area" ....as the spin slowed.? I only needed/wanted a slow spin and then coast to a stop, rather than the whole tone wheel area screaming/squealing and noise coming from all over the place ...because the noise can simply transmit down the culprit shaft(s) as well.
I could not tell "which" bearing(s) were making the noise.
Because the bearing noise is likely due to a "dry" condition and also potentially now an over-size or obround shaft/bearing clearance condition, my preference was to use a heavier weight, more viscous oil rather than the Hammond oil.? My understanding is the Hammond oil is designed to used for "wicking". Additives like waxes would eventually hinder the wicking? ....but if applying directly to a bearing, this is not a concern.
I used the most viscous lube I have which is a 30W Way Oil ...which is design to "stick" to/on "ways" found on machine tools (lathes, mills, etc). I used a syringe to apply directly on one bearing at a time ("design of experiments" principles).? I started on the end bearing closest to me, and applied a little lube on both sides (ends) of the bearing and quickly applied power and immediately disconnected ..again, just to get the tonewheel assy turning to make the noise.? This first bearing changed nothing.? This is a "lay shaft", so the opposite end then needed the same treatment. Again, a quick/short power up, changed nothing.
The "next" reachable shaft in this "first bank" was on the opposite side (toward the keys), again, a lay shaft.? When repeating the procedure, I immediately identified a change to the noise from the outside bearing. It was significantly reduced.? I then repeated on the bearing on the opposite end of this lay shaft and the noise all but disappeared.? I had found the primary culprit bearings as being the lay shaft at the opposite end of the drive motor.
However, not ALL the noise was gone. As it turned out, the next bearing, furthest away from oiling point, was on the drive shaft.? An application of oil on this one bearing and ALL the noise was gone.
I have since let the organ run for several hours and turned off to allow it to cool, and repeated this few times now.? There has been one instance where a very faint noise has started, which prompted me to add some lube to all three bearings ...and herein lies the problem of potentially needed to continually need to add lubrication to these three bearings.? ?If this is what needs to be done, then I will design some kind of system that will put lube directly on to these three bearings when needed.
At one point I looked at the entire assy and recognized this is NOT a "friendly" assy to work with. As you pointed out, Hammond would have jigs and fixtures along with a very elaborate assy instruction.
What I am wondering is if there is a lubrication product that is designed to "fill" voids or "over-size" conditions, that might offer some form of a more permanent "repair" to worn bearings. This would be "shaft-to-bearing" fit.? Something that might be perhaps "anerobic"?? ? ? Would anyone know if there is such a product available specifically for worn bearings?? ?I have looked and found different products, but I can't tell if they are for this kind of "repair" or they are meant to be applied to the outside (OD) of the bearing only.
I have used a 30W lubrication with success.? I could easily consider 50W lube as well ...but my quest is a permanent fix.
Anyone have any other ideas?
Thanks Wayne
PS - now that the tone wheel assembly is fully exposed, I will be applying oil to every bearing from both sides. If may not be necessary, but there should be no harm to doing this ....unless someone knows otherwise.? I look forward to any comments with previous experience/successes.
On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 11:10:11 AM PST, Chris Clifton <clifton.christopher@...> wrote:
Although I've come across several instances of noisy, and even
seized bearings, these have all responded to lubrication. Often
the best way to get oil where it's needed without waiting for it
to make its way through the oiling wicks is to use a syringe to
apply a drop of oil directly to each bearing. Depending on the
model of organ it may be necessary to disconnect some of the
wiring to the generator to be able to move the generator to get
access to the underside.
I doubt that there is any practicable way of replacing bearings,
the amount of work involved in dismantling, and more importantly
reassembling a generator would make it difficult if not impossible
to replace bearings. Indeed, I'm by no means certain that it's
even possible to reassemble a generator without the original
factory tooling and jigs. I'd consider any tone wheel generator
that had bearings so badly worn as to require replacement as
beyond economic repair
On 02/02/2023 18:07, Wayne Tarling via
groups.io wrote:.
Hello Community
I haven't heard much about
"bearing problems" in any of the discussions. A few messages
about Hammond lube (which I have lots of), but nothing about
"failed bearings".
Considering there are some
144 or more bearings, has anyone had a problem with a "failed"
bearing?? If so, is there any easy "fix" per se.
I won't go into a lot of
detail yet, particularly if there is indeed an easy fix.
If more information is
needed, I can certainly provide a lot more detail of what the
problem is and what I have done ....so far.
Regards to all.
Wayne
|
