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hi power mobile
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pentalab
One would think the logical way to go, would be a 24-26 v system..
instead of 12 v ? You could use something like 2 x cat batteries in series.... with a 28 V... 3 phase alternator. You could still run the vehicle on the 12v from one battery. .... or run half the car's 12 v stuff on one battery... and the other half of the vehicle's 12 v stuff.... on the other battery. Even a 50 v system.. with 4 x batteries in series would work. Later... Jim VE7RF |
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On Jan 8, 2007, at 5:07 PM, pentalab wrote:
One would think the logical way to go, would be a 24-26 v system..** In Europe, Diesel vehicles are already using 42v electrics to make for easier starting in cold weather. At the current price of copper, the savings per automobile are considerable. R. L. Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734 r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org |
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Peter Voelpel
I do the latter with my IC-2KL, 4 batteries are switched in series on
transmit and parallel on receive 73 Peter ________________________________ From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of pentalab You could use something like 2 x cat batteries in series.... with a 28 V... 3 phase alternator. You could still run the vehicle on the 12v from one battery. .... or run half the car's 12 v stuff on one battery... and the other half of the vehicle's 12 v stuff.... on the other battery. Even a 50 v system.. with 4 x batteries in series would work. |
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craxd
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "pentalab" <jim.thomson@...>
wrote: system.. instead of 12 v ?a 28 V... 3 phase alternator. We made some tube mobiles this way back in the late 70's to early 80's. You took the 14V 3 phase AC and powered a HV transformer with it. The large tube amps they use on those 11 meter shoot outs are set up this way. Galaxy Transformer up in New Jersey makes the transformers for several amp builders. You could still run the vehicle on theone battery... and the other half of the vehicle's 12 v stuff.... onthe other battery. Yup, and you have way less current draw meaning you don't have to handle all that large battery cable to hook a 12 volt amp up. I also made what was called a motor maul which is really a voltage regulator that ties to 2 banks of 12 V batteries in series. It works from RF keying. During Idle, the batteries are in parallel and are being charged by the alternator. When it's keyed by the RF sensing circuit, it places the batteries in series making 24 V then runs that through a variable series regulator. When using 2SC2879 transistors, you can run them at around 18-19 Vdc and get Mo-Power from them and they run just fine. At 12 Vdc, it cuts the power by about 1/4. Heavier heatsink is recommended though when running one class AB at 18 Vdc.
Best, Will |
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It's kind of funny watching the thread about the mobile amplifiers and voltage requirements.
Here, we learned long ago (on 11 meters) how to fix this problem. The 11 meter crowd calls it a "dead motor maul", and it's nothing more than a bank of pass transistors (or mosfets, if the builder knows what he's doing) that act as a regulator. They use a charging system consisting of a 24 volt alternator, and run parallel / series combos of standard car batteries (or standard and deep cycle, if they are smart) to have a 24 volt electric system. One alternator, and a pair of batteries will power quite a large system, as long as the number of active devices in the regulator is up to the job. This allows you to do a number of things, but vary the collector voltage from < 11 volts to > 20 volts is possible. Run a regulator to the bias section of the amp to keep bias in check and runaway in check, and you can run 16 volts on the collectors easily. I have a 12 volt 16X2SC2879 amplifier that produces > 2400 watts PEP at 15 volts. This is a bootleg cb amplifier produced by Messenger years ago. It has a simple 10 meter filter on the output, which I can't measure the effectiveness of due to lack of equipment. Stock, it ran > 1 volt of bias on the base of the transistors, and would toast them at > 14 volts (like, a stiff charging system, with long periods of keydown, here's another 300 dollars in transistors). I redid the bias circuit with different diodes (a diode feeding / clamping each pair of transistors) and a 12 volt regulator with a pair of pass transistors feeding the bias regulator. This keeps things a lot better running higher Vcoll than afforded with the stock "regulated" system of nearly any amplifier. --Toll_Free |
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PA3DUV
开云体育Will,
?
How does a series regulator for 300 amps look
like?
The efficiency from such a regulator seems to
questionable, the voltage difference x current is obviously dissipated and
turned into heat. ([22 loaded?- 16] x 300 =
1800 watt)
?
?
?
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pentalab
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., 1800 Toll Free
<TollFree1800@...> wrote: and voltage requirements.##### I have zero experience with it. I was just waiting for you to come out of the wood work.... since I knew you guys had this down pat... and was all old news. The deep cycle communications batteries work pretty good. ### I also read in an old QST... where they would use 2 x batteries in series.... like those used in golf carts..... but one was 6 V... and the other was 8 V. [didn't even know u could get deep cycle batteries... big ones... in 6 + 8 V ] Then ur car regulator would charge em to 14 .3 V..... then with engine OFF.... ur small 706-mk-2-G would last way longer. That setup was also used in some Field day event's. They use a charging system consisting of a 24 volt alternator, andrun parallel / series combos of standard car batteries (or standardand deep cycle, if they are smart) to have a 24 volt electric system. Onesystem, as ### Don't some of em use train alternator's ??? Think they were split stator, dual rotor.... or split rotor, dual stator... made by Neville Leece.... at 1000 A per stator ?? Or was this for the tube setups ?? ### I still haven't seen any detailed website on this hi power mobile stuff. Trying to generate the power is a huge project in itself. RFI, etc... Rf decks... is another issue. You are right... hams are just trying to reinvent the wheel. Later... Jim VE7RF --Toll_Free |
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craxd
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., PA3DUV <pa3duv@...> wrote:
The largest one I made and sold was a 200 amp. I designed a 300 and 400 amp but never built one as I never had an order for one over 200 amps. Anyhow, the ones I built used 10 pass transistors connected in parallel (I forget the part number but they had a TO-3 case), which had a maximum dissapation rating of 300 watts each, and a 30 amp current rating running in the safe area at the specified voltage. These were driven from a variable regulator circuit. They were mounted on a large heatsink I had made from sheet aluminum bent into C channels where one was slightly narrower than the other so they stacked together making the fins. They were stacked up to make a base about 3/8" thick. I'd have to look at the prints for the other dmensions like width and length sense it's been a while building one. Your correct, there's heat generated by the pass transistors as it works the same as any series pass power supply. As was mentioned by another, FET's can be used here also. The pass elements I used were NPN transistors. Each had a 0.1 ohm balancing resistor in series with each emitter lead. The charging circuit was switched by using starter solenoids rated at 400 amps each. The RF keyer turned the regulator on then keyed the amp afterwards so the amp would have power before the RF got to it. This was done by a simple relay timing. For a ham rig, you can do this without a RF keyer of course using the keying from the rig like on running an external amp. The problem of the switching here though creates a slight delay after the mic is keyed before you can broadcast of about 1/2 to 1 second due to the speed of the starter solenoids and relays. The regulator has to come on and supply the amps source voltage before the amps RF relay closes. So the regulator keys the amps RF relay. The regulator box and batteries were mounted in the trunk or in the back of a Bronco, Suburban, or van. The remote that mounted under the dash had an on/off switch, volt meter, and voltage adjustment pot on it. Best, Will |
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craxd
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "pentalab" <jim.thomson@...>
wrote: amplifiers andyouvoltage requirements.##### I have zero experience with it. I was just waiting for to come out of the wood work.... since I knew you guys had thisdown pat... and was all old news. The deep cycle communications Right now, they're running those yellow top batteries with the spiral cells. They claim these to be the best. Also, there's really no limit to the batteries that you parallel together to get the power required you need. The more batteries, the longer you can run. I've seen the big 24V batteries used in diesel rigs too ran in these set ups. The ones you want have the largest amp-hour ratings. and runOneparallel / series combos of standard car batteries (or standardand deepcycle, if they are smart) to have a 24 volt electric system. alternator, and a pair of batteries will power quite a largesystem, as They'll use like 6 of the Leece Neville alternators under the hood to power the big solid state amps. Some have used generators that can provide 115/230 Vac too ran off the belt.
Right, not a lot has been published on this as it was all done sort of under the table away from the FCC.
Best, Will |
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On Jan 10, 2007, at 3:33 AM, badgerscreek wrote:
I think those Yellow Top Batteries are called Optima Batteries?** In the early 1960s I used to work at Raytheon, Point Mugu. Bill Hunter, W6YK, worked in the engineering division. On cold mornings, he would warm his hands on the 300w X-band doppler radar. Bill did not die young. ...R. L. Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734 r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org |
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PA3DUV
开云体育Will,
?
Thanks for the input.
After reading all the post on this subject I will
finish the power supply as follows:
?
8 x 2 volt 230 Ah cells feeding the amplifier
stack
?
16 volt 3 stage charger, input voltage 230 V
AC
?
12 VDC => 230 VAC sine wave inverter to supply a
limited 230 AC?for the charger ?while driving
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an external 230 VAC connector on my trailer hitch
so I can charge the batteries when the car is on the driveway
?
A better alternative would be to install a second
16 volt DC alternator, but there is simply no space for a second
alternator.
?
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Cheers, Dick
PA3DUV
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Robert B. Bonner
There is very little tissue heating at HF.
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As you start passing through Vhf to UHF you have severe issues. Some very serious tissue effects can happen at 432. My 432 amp can generate 2KW out. With big antennas at those frequencies ERP's in the mega watt range are possible at ham power levels. The original microwave ovens ran around 900MHz well there's another ham band too. You have more problems stopping pacemakers at HF. I wonder if there could be any liability at a stop sign if the person in the car next to you keeled over because you were trying to work the 7Alpha on 20 meters from the car? At the old WB0DRL VHF/UHF contest station they tuned the amps with microwave leakage detectors, you know the tool for testing ovens. All the stations had them. The shack was RF tight, however when the door was opened the detectors would all start banging off the pegs to the CW. Everybody would scream "Shut that door" I declare Ham Radio is completely safe. What? (Battle Cry heard from the LT as you charge the enemy with only a knife in your teeth) YOU WANT TO LIVE FOREVER? BOB DD -----Original Message-----
From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of badgerscreek Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 5:34 AM To: ham_amplifiers@... Subject: [ham_amplifiers] Re:hi power mobile I think those Yellow Top Batteries are called Optima Batteries? I dont know why nobody is concerned about having their brains so close to the antenna? I mean sitting in the near field of the antenna running 1 or more kilowatts at the higher frequencies would have me worried. Maybe the adrenalin rush is more potent than worrying about your health, or maybe theres no danger? Greg --- In ham_amplifiers@..., "craxd" <craxd@...> wrote:
Yahoo! Groups Links |
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I really need to figure out how to get this thing to quote, when I get things in the digest. Makes it easier for everyone else to figure out what I'm trying to say....
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., 1800 Toll Free <TollFree1800@...> wrote: and voltage requirements.##### I have zero experience with it. I was just waiting for you to come out of the wood work.... since I knew you guys had this down pat... and was all old news. The deep cycle communications batteries work pretty good. Me, as in myself, or me as in one of "those" cb'ers :) I've found it's best to parallel.. A deep cycle and a standard battery. That gives you the enormous avg current reserve that the deep cycle has, as well as the instantaneous peak power the car battery has. I haven't had any experience with the bigger caps the other gentleman was talking about... I did, however, power a 32 device off 4 alternators (165 amp leece neville's) and a bank of capacitors. The biggest problem seemed to be overshoot, where when I would hit the button, it took a second for the alternator to catch up to the current demand. Voltage sag, big time.. Within a second that was fixed, though.... And that brought the next problem.. I had overshoot when I would lose the big current draw.. It would go to full field voltage very quickly, and be over it very quickly, but using some alternators, you would see > 30 VDC. Went back to a battery setup, and all that was lost. What I lost in efficiency (ie, not hauling hundreds of pounds of batteries around), I gained in convenience and reliability. ### I also read in an old QST... where they would use 2 x batteries in series.... like those used in golf carts..... but one was 6 V... and the other was 8 V. [didn't even know u could get deep cycle batteries... big ones... in 6 + 8 V ] Then ur car regulator would charge em to 14 .3 V..... then with engine OFF.... ur small 706-mk-2-G would last way longer. That setup was also used in some Field day event's. The best mobile system I have found so far is the 8 volt batteries. Tug boats make them (if you want deep cycle), and you can get new ones for Model A or T Fords, I forget which one... But early EARLY autos used an 8 volt system. I would series two 8 volts, ran 16 volts and charged 18.5. I found that to be the most efficient point easily obtainable, without using the "motor maul" type device. On SSB, my amp worked flawlessly. 2400 watts PEP output, with about 600 watts of headroom, or 25 percent. They use a charging system consisting of a 24 volt alternator, andrun parallel / series combos of standard car batteries (or standardand deep cycle, if they are smart) to have a 24 volt electric system. One alternator, and a pair of batteries will power quite a largesystem, as ### Don't some of em use train alternator's ??? Think they were split stator, dual rotor.... or split rotor, dual stator... made by Neville Leece.... at 1000 A per stator ?? Or was this for the tube setups ?? They are made by Electrodyne. 400 and 600A each rotor. 6 of them was used in a Suburban I helped put together. I've seen up to 10 of them wrapped around a big block. 1 2290 2 2879 8 2879s 3 8877s 2 4CX10,000s This was powered by 6 Electrodynes (for the final), 1 300A leece neville AC output alternator (3X8877s) and a 200A (solid state drivers) and a stock alternator. 70Kw carrier power. Pictures and videos on my website of up to 125,000 watt mobile installations. The DC guys have started running AC output alternators because they figured (or someone taught them) that they can compete in AC 1 alternator class, with 32, 48 or 64 devices (yes, their is a 96 and a 128 device amp being used, and I know of a 192 device amp built, tested and working, but not used at the moment) and a HELL of a lot of battery power, and they can compete. I also showed a LOT of guys that when you pull the diode stack out of the alternator, the heat goes WAY down, so that's been a big trend as well... Remove the diode stacks, run them externally, and you have 3 wires carrying DC (to split the load up) instead of 1 HUGE wire (I use 4/0 in my 16 device installation when using just DC output alternators. One wire front to back.. When I had AC output alternators, I used 2 ga wire (but, 3 runs per alternator) front to back. ### I still haven't seen any detailed website on this hi power mobile stuff. Trying to generate the power is a huge project in itself. RFI, etc... Rf decks... is another issue. You are right... hams are just trying to reinvent the wheel. is my website. Lots of others out there, but as someone else pointed out, they are mostly clandestine, since this IS illegal radio. FYI, Reid has a tube out in CB service. One off. 4CX30,000. Basically a 20K with a larger cooler. Expect to see this tube out in commercial service in the next few years.... So, all the people who poo-pooed CBers and their big amps... Guess what. lol. Also, I think it's worth noting, one of the biggest "tube with handles" builders in the US is learning about bias. His trend is to build his boxes with bias now, running in class AB... So, yeah, people can be taught things, it just takes a few years to get through to some of the thickheaded people :) --Toll_Free Later... Jim VE7RF --Toll_Free-- *Ratings are for transistors, tubes have guidelines* |
Will, How does a series regulator for 300 amps look like? It's all about duty cycle. Most of the motor mauls I saw or had the pleasure of fixing where about the same size as an amp of comparable power output.... ie... One that had 16 active pass devices in it would be the same size as a 16 transistor HF amp. --Toll_Free |
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David C. Hallam
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Will, Thanks for the input. 8 x 2 volt 230 Ah cells feeding the amplifier stack 16 volt 3 stage charger, input voltage 230 V AC 12 VDC => 230 VAC sine wave inverter to supply a limited 230 AC for the an external 230 VAC connector on my trailer hitch so I can charge the A better alternative would be to install a second 16 volt DC alternator, Cheers, Dick Your best bet would be to get a dual output alternator, my friend. No matter what the car, the car stereo manufacturers make a dual output high current alternator. 100 amps is easy to get... 150 amps in almost any case style alternator. 200 and 225 amps are also sizes that most of the aftermarket audio manufacturers build. You can get 250 amps out of pheonix gold alternators. 300A leece neville. Rockford Fosgate makes a big alternator that fits in our "import" cars here. What you need has been done, by the car stereo crowd years ago, you just need to do a little bit of lookin around before you spend the hard earned dollars :) |
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Robert B. Bonner
开云体育I have a couple alternator companies quoting a 48 volt alternator (54V) at 100 amps for my pickup.? I figure a couple 24 v truck batteries in series in a bed mounted battery box with a custom remote mounted amp.? I’ll build up a couple 50V amplifier modules.? I think the CBer’s are right, just add an electrical system for what you think you need… Maybe I can get away from the 750MCM battery cables that way….. ? BOB DD ? From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of PA3DUV
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 9:09 AM To: ham_amplifiers@... Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [ham_amplifiers] Re:hi power mobile ? Will, ? Thanks for the input. After reading all the post on this subject I will finish the power supply as follows: ? 8 x 2 volt 230 Ah cells feeding the amplifier stack ? 16 volt 3 stage charger, input voltage 230 V AC ? 12 VDC => 230 VAC sine wave inverter to supply a limited 230 AC?for the charger ?while driving ? an external 230 VAC connector on my trailer hitch so I can charge the batteries when the car is on the driveway ? A better alternative would be to install a second 16 volt DC alternator, but there is simply no space for a second alternator. ? ? Cheers, Dick PA3DUV ?? ? ? ? ?
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Harold Mandel
开云体育On the Bechtel/AWS project just before, during and after the WTC disaster we serviced cell site antennae throughout Manhattan as well as all the other boroughs. ? When going out on the roof of WTC1 it was necessary to wear a grounded RF suit with internal EME detector calibrated for alarms at less than 50 uW-to-alarm. ? The stupidest work picture I ever saw were these two geniuses climbing on the Empire State Building broadcast array in the middle of the day without hard hats, without safety glasses, without gloves. The picture was taken from above, so there was a third genius on the array. The photo was distributed by the ES&H people at Bechtel. ? Hal W4HBM ? From:
ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of Robert B. Bonner ? There is very little tissue heating at HF. -----Original Message-----
From: ham_amplifiers@ On Behalf Of badgerscreek Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 5:34 AM To: ham_amplifiers@ Subject: [ham_amplifiers] Re:hi power mobile I think those Yellow Top Batteries are called Optima Batteries? I dont know why nobody is concerned about having their brains so close to the antenna? I mean sitting in the near field of the antenna running 1 or more kilowatts at the higher frequencies would have me worried. Maybe the adrenalin rush is more potent than worrying about your health, or maybe theres no danger? Greg --- In ham_amplifiers@ > > --- In ham_amplifiers@ > wrote: > > > > --- In ham_amplifiers@ > > > wrote: > > > > > > It's kind of funny watching the thread about the mobile > amplifiers > > and > > > voltage requirements. > > > > ##### I have zero experience with it. I was just waiting for > you > > to come out of the wood work.... since I knew you guys had this > down > > pat... and was all old news. The deep cycle communications > > batteries work pretty good. > > > Right now, they're running those yellow top batteries with the spiral > cells. They claim these to be the best. Also, there's really no limit > to the batteries that you parallel together to get the power required > you need. The more batteries, the longer you can run. I've seen the > big 24V batteries used in diesel rigs too ran in these set ups. The > ones you want have the largest amp-hour ratings. > > > > > > ### I also read in an old QST... where they would use 2 x > > batteries in series.... like those used in golf carts..... but one > > was 6 V... and the other was 8 V. [didn't even know u could get > > deep cycle batteries... big ones... in 6 + 8 V ] Then ur car > > regulator would charge em to 14 .3 V..... then with engine OFF.... > > ur small 706-mk-2-G would last way longer. That setup was also > > used in some Field day event's. > > > > > > > > > > > They use a charging system consisting of a 24 volt alternator, > and > > run > > > parallel / series combos of standard car batteries (or standard > > and deep > > > cycle, if they are smart) to have a 24 volt electric system. > One > > > alternator, and a pair of batteries will power quite a large > > system, as > > > > ### Don't some of em use train alternator's ??? Think they > > were split stator, dual rotor.... or split rotor, dual stator... > > made by Neville Leece.... at 1000 A per stator ?? Or was this > > for the tube setups ?? > > > They'll use like 6 of the Leece Neville alternators under the hood to > power the big solid state amps. Some have used generators that can > provide 115/230 Vac too ran off the belt. > > > > > > ### I still haven't seen any detailed website on this hi power > > mobile stuff. Trying to generate the power is a huge project in > > itself. RFI, etc... Rf decks... is another issue. You are > > right... hams are just trying to reinvent the wheel. > > > Right, not a lot has been published on this as it was all done sort > of under the table away from the FCC. > > > > > > Later... Jim VE7RF > > > > > > > --Toll_Free > > > > > > > > Best, > > Will > Yahoo! Groups Links
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Harold Mandel
If any of you are seriously interested in QROO/mobile and need
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info on battery plants, regulators, alternators and 3-phase inverters, etc., please contact me off-list. Let me send you the pic of the Dodge Hemi motor running 7 alternators, all in the cargo area. Hal W4HBM -----Original Message-----
From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of 1800 Toll Free Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:59 AM To: ham_amplifiers@... Subject: [ham_amplifiers] Re: hi power mobile Will, How does a series regulator for 300 amps look like? It's all about duty cycle. Most of the motor mauls I saw or had the pleasure of fixing where about the same size as an amp of comparable power output.... ie... One that had 16 active pass devices in it would be the same size as a 16 transistor HF amp. --Toll_Free Yahoo! Groups Links |