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Re: GG Push-pull Amplifier
Hi Hsu --
Have you been able to find the information you needed from the Holiday issue 1976 73 Magazine? If not I have that issue in hand. 73, Jim - K5LAD On 6 Jan 2007 at 22:10, Hsu wrote: Hi,"It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it." -- Sam Levenson ======================================= My Web Page - |
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Re: hi power mobile
craxd
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "badgerscreek" <qrp73@...>
wrote: antenna running 1 or more kilowatts at the higher frequencies would have meabout your health, or maybe theres no danger?I've heard of this causing some health problems for a few in those key-downs they do. Long term exposure though could be pretty bad I'd think. Yup, that's the name of those batteries, I couldn't remember it when I wrote the post. |
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Mobile power supplies revisited
Here's another thought, more geared towards the gentleman in .eu who was looking at running a bunch of 2 volt batteries in series, and home charging it.
I have done this in the past, and although it isn't the best method, since your going to use 2 volt batteries, you can still accomplish this and stay within the realm of 16 volts. Take 2 of those 2 volt batteries and run them in series, creating 1X 4 volt cell. Connect that in series, neg from the new bank to + on the car battery, and run your amp from the + side of the new battery bank. From vehicle ground to amplifier B+, you will see app 16 volts. Now, the trick is here... Take ONLY the B+ out from the ALTERNATOR (I always disconnect the vehicle CHARGE lead at the alternator, then run a dedicated lead from the alt to the battery stack), and connect it as well to the top of the battery stack (to the 16 volt side). Since the cars electronics will all still see 12 volts, and the alternator will have to produce 18 volts to charge the 16 volt system, everything charges nicely. I also think it is best to take and run a relay / solenoid setup to disconnect the extra 4 volt stack when not being used, to prevent overcharging. Usually 10 to 45 minutes of charging while driving around is sufficient. Just use a solenoid to disconnect the B+ from the alt to the top of the 16 volt stack to the + / - junction of the 12 and 4 volt batteries. This works well in systems where you can't install a second alternator. Your car works fine, the amp works fine, everything charges nicely, BUT, you don't get something for nothing. Your alternator is usually running > manuf ratings, and you won't see rated Aout at 18 volts.... Expect about 20 percent less... Or even less efficiency. Still, makes it easy to run increased collector voltage cheaply. --Toll_Free |
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Re: The real benefits of running qro.
Harold Mandel
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýNow this is what hamming is all about! ? Oh, yes! ? The knife switches with 5/16¡± thick copper bars, the contactors that go CHUNG!. ? The smallest RF connector in your shack is a 7/16DIN and the stuff going out to your antenna is 1-5/8¡±? diameter. ? My friend Dale runs two 4-1000A¡¯s modulated by two 4-1000A¡¯s on A-M, with reactors, no less. Push-pull! ? He says he barely uses more than $100.00 of electricity a month with that puppy. ? Can you imagine Guglielmo Marconi¡¯s reaction the first time he keyed that 50KW spark station on Cape Cod? The station¡¯s biography says that neighbors a half-mile away could hear the spark. ? Thanks for the great posting. Hal ? From: ham_amplifiers@...
[mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On
Behalf Of Philip Leonard WV?T
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 5:23 PM To: ham_amplifiers@... Subject: Re: [ham_amplifiers] Re: The real benefits of running qro. ? pentalab
wrote: |
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Re: The real benefits of running qro.
pentalab wrote:
### qro heats ur home... makes u feel better, reduces stress.. u feel like u just beat collins/henry/harris, at their own game... lots of satisfaction, ur friends are all impressed..esp wide eyed computer geeks, and it's fun to watch plate meter's bouncing up/down...ditto with wattmeter. You have the only 0-5 A plate meter in town. You have the only 0-1 A grid meter in town. You have the only 10/25 kw slug in town. Ur plate xfmr will power 8 x homes in winter. Ur girlfriend will be dully impressed. You have more power than the local college FM station. Ur friends with 25 watt push pull tube audio amps are really impressed, [esp with a 2 x4-1000 amp.. and a window, and tubes cherry red] U have more power than 99.99% of the hams on the planet. Ur mother would be proud. Pundits think you are actually a 'broadcast engineer'. 11m ops are really impressed. You can dim all the lights on your street. Who else can say they actually smoked the pole-pig in front of their home.... and plunged the entire street into darkness. No need for counselling or self medication. You are more focused, and have better concentration..esp around 8-10 kv. You can light up several 8' fluorescent tubes in your back yard... with no wires attached. People stay clear of you in aisle 6 of your local grocery store. You can casually mention stuff at the local hamfest... like how you set the tree's on fire.. and blew the end insulator's off ur dipole. You can give a real Corona demo late at night. You once melted RG-17 on 10m. QST will never publish your schematic.This is one of the funniest things I've read in a long long time! Thank you. I'm going to print this out and hang it on the wall!! Philip |
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Re: hi power mobile
PA3DUV
¿ªÔÆÌåÓý:-) Alles klar?Peter. What diameter loading coil would you suggest for a multiband
centerloaded vertical with 3500 kilocycles as the lowest frequency.
?
Cheers, Dick
PA3DUV
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Re: hi power mobile
Peter Voelpel
The 4 feet aerea around my 80m vertical looks the same.
To prevent grass growing near the feedpoint, I drain the ground regularly with vineger. 73 Peter ________________________________ From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of Robert B. Bonner Back in the 70's a couple of my club members took a tour at 830 WCCO-AM in the Minneapolis area. They are a 50KW full time station. They noticed that for the first 10 or more feet around the base of the tower there was NO GRASS GROWING AT ALL, just dirt. The rest of the lawn was immaculate. Does this tell you something also? It made a heck of an impression on those guys back then. |
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Re: hi power mobile
Peter Voelpel
Beside, when using real loading coils and not such 5" mickey mouse coils,
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500W are all one needs to work any station heard on 80m and break most dx pileups easily. 73 Peter -----Original Message-----
From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of 1800 Toll Free What you need has been done, by the car stereo crowd years ago, you just need to do a little bit of lookin around before you spend the hard earned dollars :) |
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Re: hi power mobile
FRANCIS CARCIA
I worked for motorola for a couple years. We had a guy who thought nothing of climbing a tower with multiple 400 MHz rigs going. I pointed?out to him that he was in danger but blew me off. He always had a tan. Last?I heard he was still fighting brain cancer. I also don't own a microwave built to third world quality controls. "Robert B. Bonner" wrote:
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Re: hi power mobile
The Touota Prius has a 200v, 250A-max Ni-MH battery. The battery
recharges from the electric motor-generator that is powered by the 1500cc gas engine or from braking the already-moving vehicle. On Jan 10, 2007, at 9:07 AM, Robert B. Bonner wrote: R. L. Measures, AG6K, 805.386.3734 r@..., rlm@..., www.somis.org |
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Re: hi power mobile
Robert B. Bonner
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýI used to work for a tower company back many years ago.? My buddy (who owned the company and a ham) finally sold out and semi-retired maybe 10 years ago now. ? He told me, he had to do some work on a 50 or 100KW FM BC tower and scheduled with the engineer to have the transmitter reduced to low power for the job.? It was supposed to be brought down to like 10KW ERP. For the day.? My buddy double checked and said this absolutely HAS TO BE DONE.? He preferred it to be brought offline completely but the owner said no way¡? That day the engineer wasn¡¯t available to confirm he had reduced the power and my buddy went ahead with the project. ? Later he felt really sick and was in major distress for nearly a month.? Turns out dipstick engineer didn¡¯t do his job as promised and he spent half a day on the tower getting his guts cooked. ? This was about 20 years ago and He¡¯s had major problems ever since. ? We¡¯re talking major power at bad frequencies¡ ? Back in the 70¡¯s a couple of my club members took a tour at 830 WCCO-AM in the Minneapolis area.? They are a 50KW full time station.? They noticed that for the first 10 or more feet around the base of the tower there was NO GRASS GROWING AT ALL, just dirt.? The rest of the lawn was immaculate.? Does this tell you something also?? It made a heck of an impression on those guys back then. ? I wouldn¡¯t give a couple KW on 20 meters a second thought, however, I¡¯m thinking 100KW in a mobile install is pretty risky at 27 MHz. ? BOB DD ? From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of Harold Mandel
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:49 AM To: ham_amplifiers@... Subject: RE: [ham_amplifiers] Re:hi power mobile ? On the Bechtel/AWS project just before, during and after the WTC disaster we serviced cell site antennae throughout Manhattan as well as all the other boroughs. ? When going out on the roof of WTC1 it was necessary to wear a grounded RF suit with internal EME detector calibrated for alarms at less than 50 uW-to-alarm. ? The stupidest work picture I ever saw were these two geniuses climbing on the Empire State Building broadcast array in the middle of the day without hard hats, without safety glasses, without gloves. The picture was taken from above, so there was a third genius on the array. The photo was distributed by the ES&H people at Bechtel. ? Hal W4HBM ? From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of Robert B. Bonner ? There is very little tissue heating at HF.
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Re: hi power mobile
Harold Mandel
If any of you are seriously interested in QROO/mobile and need
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info on battery plants, regulators, alternators and 3-phase inverters, etc., please contact me off-list. Let me send you the pic of the Dodge Hemi motor running 7 alternators, all in the cargo area. Hal W4HBM -----Original Message-----
From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of 1800 Toll Free Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:59 AM To: ham_amplifiers@... Subject: [ham_amplifiers] Re: hi power mobile Will, How does a series regulator for 300 amps look like? It's all about duty cycle. Most of the motor mauls I saw or had the pleasure of fixing where about the same size as an amp of comparable power output.... ie... One that had 16 active pass devices in it would be the same size as a 16 transistor HF amp. --Toll_Free Yahoo! Groups Links |
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Re: hi power mobile
Harold Mandel
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýOn the Bechtel/AWS project just before, during and after the WTC disaster we serviced cell site antennae throughout Manhattan as well as all the other boroughs. ? When going out on the roof of WTC1 it was necessary to wear a grounded RF suit with internal EME detector calibrated for alarms at less than 50 uW-to-alarm. ? The stupidest work picture I ever saw were these two geniuses climbing on the Empire State Building broadcast array in the middle of the day without hard hats, without safety glasses, without gloves. The picture was taken from above, so there was a third genius on the array. The photo was distributed by the ES&H people at Bechtel. ? Hal W4HBM ? From:
ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of Robert B. Bonner ? There is very little tissue heating at HF. -----Original Message-----
From: ham_amplifiers@ On Behalf Of badgerscreek Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 5:34 AM To: ham_amplifiers@ Subject: [ham_amplifiers] Re:hi power mobile I think those Yellow Top Batteries are called Optima Batteries? I dont know why nobody is concerned about having their brains so close to the antenna? I mean sitting in the near field of the antenna running 1 or more kilowatts at the higher frequencies would have me worried. Maybe the adrenalin rush is more potent than worrying about your health, or maybe theres no danger? Greg --- In ham_amplifiers@ > > --- In ham_amplifiers@ > wrote: > > > > --- In ham_amplifiers@ > > > wrote: > > > > > > It's kind of funny watching the thread about the mobile > amplifiers > > and > > > voltage requirements. > > > > ##### I have zero experience with it. I was just waiting for > you > > to come out of the wood work.... since I knew you guys had this > down > > pat... and was all old news. The deep cycle communications > > batteries work pretty good. > > > Right now, they're running those yellow top batteries with the spiral > cells. They claim these to be the best. Also, there's really no limit > to the batteries that you parallel together to get the power required > you need. The more batteries, the longer you can run. I've seen the > big 24V batteries used in diesel rigs too ran in these set ups. The > ones you want have the largest amp-hour ratings. > > > > > > ### I also read in an old QST... where they would use 2 x > > batteries in series.... like those used in golf carts..... but one > > was 6 V... and the other was 8 V. [didn't even know u could get > > deep cycle batteries... big ones... in 6 + 8 V ] Then ur car > > regulator would charge em to 14 .3 V..... then with engine OFF.... > > ur small 706-mk-2-G would last way longer. That setup was also > > used in some Field day event's. > > > > > > > > > > > They use a charging system consisting of a 24 volt alternator, > and > > run > > > parallel / series combos of standard car batteries (or standard > > and deep > > > cycle, if they are smart) to have a 24 volt electric system. > One > > > alternator, and a pair of batteries will power quite a large > > system, as > > > > ### Don't some of em use train alternator's ??? Think they > > were split stator, dual rotor.... or split rotor, dual stator... > > made by Neville Leece.... at 1000 A per stator ?? Or was this > > for the tube setups ?? > > > They'll use like 6 of the Leece Neville alternators under the hood to > power the big solid state amps. Some have used generators that can > provide 115/230 Vac too ran off the belt. > > > > > > ### I still haven't seen any detailed website on this hi power > > mobile stuff. Trying to generate the power is a huge project in > > itself. RFI, etc... Rf decks... is another issue. You are > > right... hams are just trying to reinvent the wheel. > > > Right, not a lot has been published on this as it was all done sort > of under the table away from the FCC. > > > > > > Later... Jim VE7RF > > > > > > > --Toll_Free > > > > > > > > Best, > > Will > Yahoo! Groups Links
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Re: hi power mobile
Robert B. Bonner
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýI have a couple alternator companies quoting a 48 volt alternator (54V) at 100 amps for my pickup.? I figure a couple 24 v truck batteries in series in a bed mounted battery box with a custom remote mounted amp.? I¡¯ll build up a couple 50V amplifier modules.? I think the CBer¡¯s are right, just add an electrical system for what you think you need¡ Maybe I can get away from the 750MCM battery cables that way¡.. ? BOB DD ? From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of PA3DUV
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 9:09 AM To: ham_amplifiers@... Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [ham_amplifiers] Re:hi power mobile ? Will, ? Thanks for the input. After reading all the post on this subject I will finish the power supply as follows: ? 8 x 2 volt 230 Ah cells feeding the amplifier stack ? 16 volt 3 stage charger, input voltage 230 V AC ? 12 VDC => 230 VAC sine wave inverter to supply a limited 230 AC?for the charger ?while driving ? an external 230 VAC connector on my trailer hitch so I can charge the batteries when the car is on the driveway ? A better alternative would be to install a second 16 volt DC alternator, but there is simply no space for a second alternator. ? ? Cheers, Dick PA3DUV ?? ? ? ? ?
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Re: hi power mobile
Will, Thanks for the input. 8 x 2 volt 230 Ah cells feeding the amplifier stack 16 volt 3 stage charger, input voltage 230 V AC 12 VDC => 230 VAC sine wave inverter to supply a limited 230 AC for the an external 230 VAC connector on my trailer hitch so I can charge the A better alternative would be to install a second 16 volt DC alternator, Cheers, Dick Your best bet would be to get a dual output alternator, my friend. No matter what the car, the car stereo manufacturers make a dual output high current alternator. 100 amps is easy to get... 150 amps in almost any case style alternator. 200 and 225 amps are also sizes that most of the aftermarket audio manufacturers build. You can get 250 amps out of pheonix gold alternators. 300A leece neville. Rockford Fosgate makes a big alternator that fits in our "import" cars here. What you need has been done, by the car stereo crowd years ago, you just need to do a little bit of lookin around before you spend the hard earned dollars :) |
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Re: hi power mobile
David C. Hallam
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýIn the
past and maybe still, 27 MHz was used in diathermy machines.
Effect????
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David
KC2JD
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Re: hi power mobile
Will, How does a series regulator for 300 amps look like? It's all about duty cycle. Most of the motor mauls I saw or had the pleasure of fixing where about the same size as an amp of comparable power output.... ie... One that had 16 active pass devices in it would be the same size as a 16 transistor HF amp. --Toll_Free |
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Re: hi power mobile
I really need to figure out how to get this thing to quote, when I get things in the digest. Makes it easier for everyone else to figure out what I'm trying to say....
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., 1800 Toll Free <TollFree1800@...> wrote: and voltage requirements.##### I have zero experience with it. I was just waiting for you to come out of the wood work.... since I knew you guys had this down pat... and was all old news. The deep cycle communications batteries work pretty good. Me, as in myself, or me as in one of "those" cb'ers :) I've found it's best to parallel.. A deep cycle and a standard battery. That gives you the enormous avg current reserve that the deep cycle has, as well as the instantaneous peak power the car battery has. I haven't had any experience with the bigger caps the other gentleman was talking about... I did, however, power a 32 device off 4 alternators (165 amp leece neville's) and a bank of capacitors. The biggest problem seemed to be overshoot, where when I would hit the button, it took a second for the alternator to catch up to the current demand. Voltage sag, big time.. Within a second that was fixed, though.... And that brought the next problem.. I had overshoot when I would lose the big current draw.. It would go to full field voltage very quickly, and be over it very quickly, but using some alternators, you would see > 30 VDC. Went back to a battery setup, and all that was lost. What I lost in efficiency (ie, not hauling hundreds of pounds of batteries around), I gained in convenience and reliability. ### I also read in an old QST... where they would use 2 x batteries in series.... like those used in golf carts..... but one was 6 V... and the other was 8 V. [didn't even know u could get deep cycle batteries... big ones... in 6 + 8 V ] Then ur car regulator would charge em to 14 .3 V..... then with engine OFF.... ur small 706-mk-2-G would last way longer. That setup was also used in some Field day event's. The best mobile system I have found so far is the 8 volt batteries. Tug boats make them (if you want deep cycle), and you can get new ones for Model A or T Fords, I forget which one... But early EARLY autos used an 8 volt system. I would series two 8 volts, ran 16 volts and charged 18.5. I found that to be the most efficient point easily obtainable, without using the "motor maul" type device. On SSB, my amp worked flawlessly. 2400 watts PEP output, with about 600 watts of headroom, or 25 percent. They use a charging system consisting of a 24 volt alternator, andrun parallel / series combos of standard car batteries (or standardand deep cycle, if they are smart) to have a 24 volt electric system. One alternator, and a pair of batteries will power quite a largesystem, as ### Don't some of em use train alternator's ??? Think they were split stator, dual rotor.... or split rotor, dual stator... made by Neville Leece.... at 1000 A per stator ?? Or was this for the tube setups ?? They are made by Electrodyne. 400 and 600A each rotor. 6 of them was used in a Suburban I helped put together. I've seen up to 10 of them wrapped around a big block. 1 2290 2 2879 8 2879s 3 8877s 2 4CX10,000s This was powered by 6 Electrodynes (for the final), 1 300A leece neville AC output alternator (3X8877s) and a 200A (solid state drivers) and a stock alternator. 70Kw carrier power. Pictures and videos on my website of up to 125,000 watt mobile installations. The DC guys have started running AC output alternators because they figured (or someone taught them) that they can compete in AC 1 alternator class, with 32, 48 or 64 devices (yes, their is a 96 and a 128 device amp being used, and I know of a 192 device amp built, tested and working, but not used at the moment) and a HELL of a lot of battery power, and they can compete. I also showed a LOT of guys that when you pull the diode stack out of the alternator, the heat goes WAY down, so that's been a big trend as well... Remove the diode stacks, run them externally, and you have 3 wires carrying DC (to split the load up) instead of 1 HUGE wire (I use 4/0 in my 16 device installation when using just DC output alternators. One wire front to back.. When I had AC output alternators, I used 2 ga wire (but, 3 runs per alternator) front to back. ### I still haven't seen any detailed website on this hi power mobile stuff. Trying to generate the power is a huge project in itself. RFI, etc... Rf decks... is another issue. You are right... hams are just trying to reinvent the wheel. is my website. Lots of others out there, but as someone else pointed out, they are mostly clandestine, since this IS illegal radio. FYI, Reid has a tube out in CB service. One off. 4CX30,000. Basically a 20K with a larger cooler. Expect to see this tube out in commercial service in the next few years.... So, all the people who poo-pooed CBers and their big amps... Guess what. lol. Also, I think it's worth noting, one of the biggest "tube with handles" builders in the US is learning about bias. His trend is to build his boxes with bias now, running in class AB... So, yeah, people can be taught things, it just takes a few years to get through to some of the thickheaded people :) --Toll_Free Later... Jim VE7RF --Toll_Free-- *Ratings are for transistors, tubes have guidelines* |
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Re: hi power mobile
Robert B. Bonner
There is very little tissue heating at HF.
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As you start passing through Vhf to UHF you have severe issues. Some very serious tissue effects can happen at 432. My 432 amp can generate 2KW out. With big antennas at those frequencies ERP's in the mega watt range are possible at ham power levels. The original microwave ovens ran around 900MHz well there's another ham band too. You have more problems stopping pacemakers at HF. I wonder if there could be any liability at a stop sign if the person in the car next to you keeled over because you were trying to work the 7Alpha on 20 meters from the car? At the old WB0DRL VHF/UHF contest station they tuned the amps with microwave leakage detectors, you know the tool for testing ovens. All the stations had them. The shack was RF tight, however when the door was opened the detectors would all start banging off the pegs to the CW. Everybody would scream "Shut that door" I declare Ham Radio is completely safe. What? (Battle Cry heard from the LT as you charge the enemy with only a knife in your teeth) YOU WANT TO LIVE FOREVER? BOB DD -----Original Message-----
From: ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of badgerscreek Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 5:34 AM To: ham_amplifiers@... Subject: [ham_amplifiers] Re:hi power mobile I think those Yellow Top Batteries are called Optima Batteries? I dont know why nobody is concerned about having their brains so close to the antenna? I mean sitting in the near field of the antenna running 1 or more kilowatts at the higher frequencies would have me worried. Maybe the adrenalin rush is more potent than worrying about your health, or maybe theres no danger? Greg --- In ham_amplifiers@..., "craxd" <craxd@...> wrote:
Yahoo! Groups Links |
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Re: hi power mobile
PA3DUV
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýWill,
?
Thanks for the input.
After reading all the post on this subject I will
finish the power supply as follows:
?
8 x 2 volt 230 Ah cells feeding the amplifier
stack
?
16 volt 3 stage charger, input voltage 230 V
AC
?
12 VDC => 230 VAC sine wave inverter to supply a
limited 230 AC?for the charger ?while driving
?
an external 230 VAC connector on my trailer hitch
so I can charge the batteries when the car is on the driveway
?
A better alternative would be to install a second
16 volt DC alternator, but there is simply no space for a second
alternator.
?
?
Cheers, Dick
PA3DUV
??
?
?
?
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