Re: Censorship/Administrator
On Sep 20, 2006, at 4:18 PM, pentalab wrote: --- In ham_amplifiers@..., FRANCIS CARCIA <carcia@...>
wrote:
I just hope we don't spend 3 weeks deciding which size wire to run
to the shack.
That one sent me running away. ### I suggested at least 2 ga wire to my buddy. Turns out it
shoulda been a heluva lot bigger.... once we determined the
peak current on the 240 vac line.... every 8.3 msecs..... using
Duncans amp tools. The chief culprit was the input Z of the
plate xfmr primary [aprx 70 ohms]... and NOT the
meassured .08 ohm Dc resistance. The Z looking into the primary is a function of what's on the secondary.
### To get bigger wire to fit a 100 A breaker.... snip a few
strands off the outer layer... and re-twist... fits like a glove.
Silver soldering the remaining strands with 6%-Ag, 94%-Sn (221?C) solder is helpful.
Later... Jim VE7RF
Yahoo! Groups Links
R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734 r@...
|
Can Grid Dissipation in metal GG triodes be increased ????
Gents
On these 3CX-6000's and also the socketless version [ YC-243],
I fool with from time to time, Eimac/ Svetlana state's the grid
diss at 225 Watts CCS. [3CX-3000A7 is also 225 w CCS grid]
Now, since the tube(s) can be operated in either GG OR grid
driven.... it occured to me that in grid driven mode... the grid
should still has a 225 w CCS rating ???
The point here is..... in GG service... you bolt this huge grid
ring to the chassis.... and in the case of the socketless
version.... an even bigger diam grid flange is bolted to the
chassis !
Now... that alone should heatsink the grid ??? Since the grid
is sitting in a vac... the only way for thermal heat to escape is
via the grid flange.
Since the below chassis compartment is pressurized... one might
think the actual grid dissipation can perhaps be increased via
this heatsink action ?? [GG mode]
Am I out to lunch here ???
Later..... Jim VE7RF
|
On Sep 20, 2006, at 4:11 PM, pentalab wrote: --- In ham_amplifiers@..., "w5uc" <w5uc@...> wrote:
There is something really wrong when the name of the moderator must
be
kept a secret. Looking forward to enjoying the new group.
73.
Mike, W5UC ### agreed ! This new group is gonna blow away the
old 'amps' group.... hands down... To thrive, like a TV soap opera, a discussion group needs a protagonist and an antagonist. Tom and yours truly are such. Without Tom, my guess is that there will be a lot less entertainment value. stay tuned.
Later... and greetings... from Jim VE7RF
Yahoo! Groups Links
R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734 r@...
|
Re: New poll for ham_amplifiers
I never tried driving the grid but in gg it is close to X15 when motivated by a pair of UTC CG310s on the high taps. I've read your article a number of times on the on you did Rick. Frank wa1gfz
R L Measures wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
In grid-driven service, the 4cx3000A has a power gain of c. 60x. On Sep 20, 2006, at 4:51 PM, FRANCIS CARCIA wrote: > Yup Mike, > They all went to Frank because I have a box of 4CX3000As. They also > work well in GG mode and have a bit more gain than the 4-1000A. >
wa1gfz > > Mike Sawyer < w3slk@uplink.net> wrote: > Frank, > I thought I took all your 4-1000's ;>) Welcome to the new group. > Mod-U-Lator, > Mike(y) > W3SLK > ----- Original Message ----- > From: FRANCIS CARCIA > To: ham_amplifiers@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 5:32 PM > Subject: Re: [ham_amplifiers] New poll for ham_amplifiers > > Maybe we could change the pole to what size breaker can you > trip.......I plea the fifth > > ham_amplifiers@yahoogroups.com wrote: > > Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the > ham_amplifiers group: > > what is the output power capability of your HF power amplifier. > (obviously we
never exeed our legal limit) > > o < 2 kW > o 3 kW > o 6 kW > o 12 kW > o > 15 kW > > To vote, please visit the following web page: > > > Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are > not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups > web site listed above. > > Thanks! > > > > R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734 r@...
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Re: [-] Re: Re: Panasonic/Matsushita Switcher HV-PS u-Wave Oven
On Sep 20, 2006, at 4:01 PM, Paul Playford wrote: It is information like this that maintains my interest in amateur radio. Are you interested enough to build one? My guess is that 6 of the Panasonic switchers would power an 8170 in SSB-mode, especially if an energy-storage C bank was connected to the output and the units were powered from a 50A electric range outlet.
de Paul, W8AEF
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Glover" <r.glover@...>
To: <ham_amplifiers@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 2:39 PM
Subject: [-] Re: [ham_amplifiers] Re: Panasonic/Matsushita Switcher HV-PS
u-Wave Oven
Dave Smith VK3HZ did some ivvesigation of these, with interesting findings
at:
www.users.bigpond.net.au/dwsmith/hv_inverter.pdf
Roger
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dick" <pa3duv@...>
To: <ham_amplifiers@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 9:33 PM
Subject: [ham_amplifiers] Re: Panasonic/Matsushita Switcher HV-PS u-Wave
Oven
Very interesting Rich.
What would be the regulation of this switched mode power supply?
Cheers, Dick
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:
I purchased one unit from Costco. The price was $99. The unit was
surprisingly light in weight compared to my old transformer-
powered
400W u-wave oven. I found no RFI problem from 50 - 550 MHz. The
rating is 1300w, which is most probably the DC input power to the
magnetron. At 120V, c. 17A of current is drawn. If a SSB amateur
radio amplifier was built using the Matsushita switcher PS, two units
are probably needed. By putting the 120V inputs to the two switcher
supplies in series, operation from a standard, 240VCT, 20A outlet
would work. I have not yet disassembled the oven to measure the HV.
Does anyone know what's the typical range of potentials used to power
magnetrons of this size? tnx
R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734
r@...
Yahoo! Groups Links
R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734 r@...
|
Mike\(W5UC\) & Kathy\(K5MWH\)
The absence of secret moderators is a
blessing.? Now if we can just avoid month long discussions about the miniscule
merits of harmonic suppressors.
Pentalabs wrote:
To thrive, like a TV soap opera, a discussion group needs a
protagonist and an antagonist. Tom and yours truly are such. Without
Tom, my guess is that there will be a lot less entertainment value.
|
On Sep 20, 2006, at 2:36 PM, FRANCIS CARCIA wrote: man you got that right John.....all that useless mail. The one on wiring back to the breaker panel that went on for ever sent me a runnin. my $50,000 alpha won't work
jcoupejr <JCoupejr@...> wrote:
I am very happy we have found a new unmoderated home. Recent posts on
the old group have been boaring to say the least.
Welcome to all and lets continue to have free and meaningful
discussions on this great topic! Unmoderated is a euphemism for uncensored. // As I see it, when a member goes over the top, he will be ignored by the rest of the discussion group and. if given enough time. he eventually wither on the vine. This is essentially censoring by everyone. I call it democratic censoring.
John Coupe
WA3BXH
R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734 r@...
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Re: New poll for ham_amplifiers
Funny, the YC-156 TRIODE has 3 times that gain in GG. I drive my grid driven 4CX3000A by a 4CX350a in class A which I integrated into the amp 73 Peter --- In ham_amplifiers@..., FRANCIS CARCIA <carcia@...> wrote:
I never tried driving the grid but in gg it is close to X15 when
motivated by a pair of UTC CG310s on the high taps. I've read your article a number of times on the on you did Rick. Frank wa1gfz
R L Measures <r@...> wrote: In grid-driven service,
the 4cx3000A has a power gain of c. 60x.
On Sep 20, 2006, at 4:51 PM, FRANCIS CARCIA wrote:
Yup Mike,
They all went to Frank because I have a box of 4CX3000As. They
also work well in GG mode and have a bit more gain than the 4-1000A.
wa1gfz
Mike Sawyer <w3slk@...> wrote:
Frank,
I thought I took all your 4-1000's ;>) Welcome to the new group.
Mod-U-Lator,
Mike(y)
W3SLK
----- Original Message -----
From: FRANCIS CARCIA
To: ham_amplifiers@...
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [ham_amplifiers] New poll for ham_amplifiers
Maybe we could change the pole to what size breaker can you
trip.......I plea the fifth
ham_amplifiers@... wrote:
Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
ham_amplifiers group:
what is the output power capability of your HF power amplifier.
(obviously we never exeed our legal limit)
o < 2 kW
o 3 kW
o 6 kW
o 12 kW
o > 15 kW
To vote, please visit the following web page:
Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.
Thanks!
R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734
r@...
|
Re: Panasonic/Matsushita Switcher HV-PS u-Wave Oven
On Sep 20, 2006, at 1:30 PM, Dick wrote: Very interesting Rich.
What would be the regulation of this switched mode power supply?
Cheers, Dick I have no idea, but it has to be pretty good, since due to a switcher's light weight, if there was a lot of ESR, something would be likely to melt down.
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., R L Measures <r@...> wrote:
I purchased one unit from Costco. The price was $99. The unit was
surprisingly light in weight compared to my old transformer-
powered
400W u-wave oven. I found no RFI problem from 50 - 550 MHz. The
rating is 1300w, which is most probably the DC input power to the
magnetron. At 120V, c. 17A of current is drawn. If a SSB amateur
radio amplifier was built using the Matsushita switcher PS, two units
are probably needed. By putting the 120V inputs to the two switcher
supplies in series, operation from a standard, 240VCT, 20A outlet
would work. I have not yet disassembled the oven to measure the HV.
Does anyone know what's the typical range of potentials used to power
magnetrons of this size? tnx
R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734
r@...
Yahoo! Groups Links
R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734 r@...
|
Re: Censorship/Administrator
On Sep 20, 2006, at 11:33 AM, Pete Smith wrote: And what's the alternative? I should "out" him? That's not my
prerogative, either.
I have been a member of amps since its inception, and while I
disagree with prior restraint of speech, I think its series of
moderators have acted with great self-control in the face of
extraordinary provocation. I believe the previous moderator
resigned at least in part because of the private vitriol directed
at him.
I'm done now - if you guys are going to run an amps reflector, talk
amps. But you are opposed to talking about those who censor amplifier discussions?
73, Pete N4ZR
At 11:45 AM 9/20/2006, Mike(W5UC) & Kathy(K5MWH) wrote:
Pete, I guess you do what you think you must do, BUT, I have a lot
of trouble with the idea that someone operates an “open” forum and
feels the need to hide. That concept really bothers me. I post
my name and callsign every time I post to a reflector, and I am
very suspicious about the intentions of someone who feels the need
to hide in the shadows.
73,
Mike, W5UC
<>
----------
From: ham_amplifiers@...
[mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of Pete Smith
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 9:26 AM
To: ham_amplifiers@...
Subject: Re: [ham_amplifiers] Censorship/Administrator
I am going to respect his anonymity.
73, Pete N4ZR
At 08:32 AM 9/20/2006, Jan Erik Holm wrote:
OK it isn?t W8JI, who is it?
73 SM2EKM
--------------------------------------
Pete Smith wrote:
This may be my first and last post on this list, but I wanted to
clear
a few misconceptions:
Tom Rausch is not the Admin of Amps. I'm not either ;^)
W4AN was not a fan of free speech - he replaced me as Admin of
Towertalk when I refused to censor posts there; this is not a
knock on
Bill, just a difference of philosophy.
I run a local community affairs mailing list with only two rules
- sign
your real name and maintain basic civility - keep it
substantive, not
personal. In 6 years, I've had to ban one person for a week. A
parallel list has no such rules, and has disintegrated into ugly
name-
calling.
From what I have read, such a regime on amps would have worked
pretty well, though the Admin would have had to ban a few people.
73, Pete Smith N4ZR
Yahoo! Groups Links
Yahoo! Groups Links
R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734 r@...
|
Re: Censorship/Administrator
On Sep 20, 2006, at 11:29 AM, Dino Darling wrote: My guess is that Pete won't get banned from here, if that was what he
was implying. If he chooses not to post here, it will be of his own
free will. at least, this is my understanding of policy on this new
and improved list.
I wonder who else has been banned from the other list in the past week... Probably no one. Apparently Tom has been quietly censoring AMPS members who mention this group.
At 04:45 AM 9/20/2006, you wrote:
This may be my first and last post on this list, but I wanted to clear
a few misconceptions: Dino - K6RIX
dino@...
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.5/451 - Release Date: 9/19/2006
Yahoo! Groups Links
R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734 r@...
|
On Sep 20, 2006, at 10:16 AM, Martin AA6E wrote: Here's a simple request from one op who is interested in amps. Personal
grudge matches are bad news and will put off people who don't have any
ax to grind. The W8JI-AG6K dispute that existed on AMPS - and previously on rec,amateur-radio.homebrew was not grudge based, it was based on electronic theory. W8JI's position was that AC circuit-analysis was inaccurate when analyzing VHF parasitic suppressors, that Ni-Cr alloys had reverse skin effect at HF, and that even though a DC current pulse could ring a HF-resonant circuit, it could not ring a VHF-resonant circuit. I did not agree and said so. If we really want to support ham amplifier work, this
stuff is counterproductive. Allowing newcomers to believe that W8JI's above statements are correct is productive? Let's take our flames back to the NNTP world. Telling people what to do is hardly good form.
I am giving the Yahoo group a try, because I think the anonymous
moderation and "appropriate use" policies of the other list were very
worrisome.
The straw that broke the camel's back was when Tom censored my post about why the TL-922 switches faster from Tx to Rx than it does when switching from Rx to Tx -- which could help to explain why so many 922 owners experience parasitic arcing when switching to Rx from Tx.
I hope I don't have to unsubscribe from both of these groups!
Zzzzzzzzzzz
73 Martin AA6E
...
R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734 r@...
|
Re: Censorship/Administrator
On Sep 20, 2006, at 9:30 AM, bill_w4zv wrote: --- In ham_amplifiers@..., "Pete Smith" <n4zr@...> wrote:
I run a local community affairs mailing list with only two rules - sign
your real name and maintain basic civility - keep it substantive, not
personal. I agree Pete, although I also maintain strict topic focus on the
Topband reflector. I got booted off of Topband for questioning questionable technical statements bu Tom RAUCH, W8JI. Bill, are you a friend of Tom?
AG6K wrote:
I was booted off of AMPS by W8JI, Charles Thomas Rauch, Jr. This list is off to a great start with a lie. I know who the
moderator is also and confirm it's not W8JI (...or me).
73, Bill
Yahoo! Groups Links
R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734 r@...
|
Re: Censorship/Administrator
On Sep 20, 2006, at 8:45 AM, Mike((W5UC)) & Kathy((K5MWH)) wrote: Pete, I guess you do what you think you must do, BUT, I have a lot
of trouble with the idea that someone operates an “open” forum and
feels the need to hide. That concept really bothers me. I post my
name and callsign every time I post to a reflector, and I am very
suspicious about the intentions of someone who feels the need to
hide in the shadows. Amen, Mike. I found it curious that Tom knew the reasons why I got "unsubscribed" / jackbooted from AMPS without the reasons having been posted.
73,
Mike, W5UC
From: ham_amplifiers@...
[mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of Pete Smith
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 9:26 AM
To: ham_amplifiers@...
Subject: Re: [ham_amplifiers] Censorship/Administrator
I am going to respect his anonymity.
73, Pete N4ZR
At 08:32 AM 9/20/2006, Jan Erik Holm wrote:
OK it isn?t W8JI, who is it?
73 SM2EKM
--------------------------------------
Pete Smith wrote:
This may be my first and last post on this list, but I wanted to clear
a few misconceptions:
Tom Rausch is not the Admin of Amps. I'm not either ;^)
W4AN was not a fan of free speech - he replaced me as Admin of
Towertalk when I refused to censor posts there; this is not a
knock on
Bill, just a difference of philosophy.
I run a local community affairs mailing list with only two rules
- sign
your real name and maintain basic civility - keep it
substantive, not
personal. In 6 years, I've had to ban one person for a week. A
parallel list has no such rules, and has disintegrated into ugly
name-
calling.
From what I have read, such a regime on amps would have worked
pretty
well, though the Admin would have had to ban a few people.
73, Pete Smith N4ZR
Yahoo! Groups Links
R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734 r@...
|
On Sep 20, 2006, at 4:32 AM, GGLL wrote:
Jan Erik Holm escribió:
Thank?s to W3SLK for the info, it finaly made the
old amps-list.
I was sorry to see what happened over at the old list,
personally I hate censorship no matter what it is. I sent a message there announcing the creation of this new list
and it was
censored, so I guess if "you know who" erased it to prevent AMPS
"instability".
Things became personal matters.
If the censor is not Tom, it's probably one of his drinkin' buddies. cheers, Guillermo
Best regards
Guillermo - LU8EYW.
For years I have been wounder who the moderator was at
the amps-list, I know now, guess I should have figured
it out.
73 Jim SM2EKM
Yahoo! Groups Links
R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734 r@...
|
chortle On Sep 20, 2006, at 2:06 AM, w5uc wrote: The mesage got through anyway. VK6APK posted a respomse with the
announcement at the bottom and the censor missed it.
73,
Mike, W5UC
Yahoo! Groups Links
R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734 r@...
|
On Sep 19, 2006, at 7:40 PM, craxd wrote: Mike,
No, the melting temperature raises when you use silver in a solder. Silver melts at 960.8?C. Tin melts at 231.9?C. Silver-tin solder is eutectic (the lowest possible melting point) at 221?C, when the silver content is c. 6%. Less than 6% silver or more than 6% silver raises the melting point. The more silver, the higher the melting temperature. Some has to be
used at red hot brazing temperatures. Thus in order for it to flow and
bond, it has to be at the correct temperature to do it.
Best,
Will
--- In ham_amplifiers@..., "Mike Sawyer" <w3slk@...>
wrote:
This has some redeeming value, but on another bulletin board, the
topic of using nichrome wire came up being used as a meter shunt.
someone chimed in that you can't solder to nichrome wire. Another
stated that you had to add enough solder to the joint to make it
mechanically stable. I was under the impression that you had to use
allot of heat, (like one of those large soldering irons you see in the
bargain boxes below the flea market tables), due to the heat wicking
properties of the wire. Am I correct in that assumption or only half
correct?
Mod-U-Lator,
Mike(y)
W3SLK
Yahoo! Groups Links
R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734 r@...
|
Re: Censorship/Administrator
It's also funny that when I asked on the amps reflector if Rich had been
kicked off, Tom wrote back to me the reasons he was kicked off for, before it
ever showed up on the reflector that he was gone. The admin guy didn't answer me
until the next day.? If the admin guy is not Tom, then he must be helping
the admin guy censor.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 6:29
PM
Subject: Re: [ham_amplifiers]
Censorship/Administrator
On Sep 20, 2006, at 8:45 AM, Mike((W5UC)) &
Kathy((K5MWH)) wrote:
> Pete, I guess you do what you think you must
do, BUT, I have a lot?
> of trouble with the idea that someone
operates an “open” forum and?
> feels the need to hide.? That
concept really bothers me.? I post my?
> name and callsign
every time I post to a reflector, and I am very?
> suspicious
about the intentions of someone who feels the need to?
> hide in
the shadows.
Amen, Mike.? I found it curious that Tom knew the
reasons why I got?
"unsubscribed" / jackbooted from AMPS without the
reasons having been?
posted.
>
>
>
73,
>
> Mike, W5UC
>
>
>
>
>
>
From: ham_amplifiers@yahoogroupscom?
> [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of Pete
Smith
> Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 9:26 AM
> To: ham_amplifiers@yahoogroupscom
>
Subject: Re: [ham_amplifiers]
Censorship/Administrator
>
>
>
> I am going to respect
his anonymity.
>
> 73, Pete N4ZR
>
> At 08:32 AM
9/20/2006, Jan Erik Holm wrote:
> >OK it isn?t W8JI, who is
it?
> >
> >73 SM2EKM
>
>--------------------------------------
> >Pete Smith
wrote:
> >> This may be my first and last post on this list, but I
wanted to?
> clear
> >> a few misconceptions:
>
>>
> >> Tom Rausch is not the Admin of Amps. I'm not either
;^)
> >>
> >> W4AN was not a fan of free speech - he
replaced me as Admin of
> >> Towertalk when I refused to censor
posts there; this is not a?
> knock on
> >> Bill, just
a difference of philosophy.
> >>
> >> I run a local
community affairs mailing list with only two rules?
> -
sign
> >> your real name and maintain basic civility - keep
it?
> substantive, not
> >> personal. In 6 years, I've
had to ban one person for a week. A
> >> parallel list has no such
rules, and has disintegrated into ugly?
> name-
> >>
calling.
> >>
> >>>From what I have read, such a
regime on amps would have worked?
> pretty
> >> well,
though the Admin would have had to ban a few people.
> >>
>
>> 73, Pete Smith N4ZR
> >>
> >
>
>
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
R L MEASURES, AG6K.
805-386-3734
r@...
?
Yahoo!
Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go
to:
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<*>
Your email settings:
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On Sep 20, 2006, at 5:26 PM, Mike((W5UC)) & Kathy((K5MWH)) wrote: The absence of secret moderators is a blessing. Now if we can just avoid month long discussions about the miniscule merits of harmonic suppressors. The are parasitic oscillation suppressors but no harmonic suppressors. Did you avoid discussions about the latter?
Pentalabs wrote:
To thrive, like a TV soap opera, a discussion group needs a
protagonist and an antagonist. Tom and yours truly are such. Without
Tom, my guess is that there will be a lot less entertainment value.
R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734 r@...
|
Mike\(W5UC\) & Kathy\(K5MWH\)
I got so tired of the long term kicking of
dead horses that I just started going through my unread mail and automatically
clicking AMPs mail as read without opening it or looking at the subject.? I
should have left long before I did.? When I saw the announcement about
this reflector, I joined it and unsubscribed to AMPS, then deleted all AMPS
messages and the AMPS mailbox from my system.? God knows that I enjoy a
little fun & BS, but I was having trouble finding boots with high enough
tops.
?
73,
Mike, W5UC
?
From:
ham_amplifiers@... [mailto:ham_amplifiers@...] On Behalf Of R L Measures
Sent: Wednesday, September 20,
2006 9:13 PM
To: ham_amplifiers@...
Subject: Re: [ham_amplifiers] Re:
Moderator
?
On Sep 20, 2006, at 5:26 PM, Mike((W5UC)) & Kathy((K5MWH)) wrote:
> The absence of secret moderators is a blessing. Now if we can just
> avoid month long discussions about the miniscule merits of harmonic
> suppressors.
The are parasitic oscillation suppressors but no harmonic
suppressors. Did you avoid discussions about the latter?
>
>
> Pentalabs wrote:
>
>
> To thrive, like a TV soap opera, a discussion group needs a
> protagonist and an antagonist. Tom and yours truly are such. Without
> Tom, my guess is that there will be a lot less entertainment value.
>
>
>
>
R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734
r@...
|
