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Workshop Tapes - was Re: Examine RDR Files
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Dave Wade wrote:
I think the old ones are in VMFPLC2 format, (might be TAPE),Unless you already know exactly what files are on the tape, I would not recommend doing that. The "LOAD" function reads the files from the tape and actually loads them onto your minidisk. Instead, I would do a "SCAN", which reads the tape and just lists the files that are on the tape but does not actually load them. Also, if you were not aware, Hercules comes with a vmfplc2 utility too (*), which, while completely different from VM's VMFPLC2 (or TAPE) commands, has similar functionality but is designed as a simple Linux or Windows host command-line command instead, that allows you to examine (SCAN) an existing .aws/.het VMFPLC2/TAPE format tape file, or create such a tape from host files (DUMP function), or LOAD files from such a tape onto your host system. Basically it provides the same basic functionality as VM's command, but is designed to be run your host as a Hercules offline utility. Documentation for how to use it is in our README.VMFPLC2.md file: * (You might consider installing some type of "markdown viewer" browser plugin/extension so our README files are properly formatted/displayed in your browser.) So I would personally do a Hercules vmfplc2.exe SCAN function, and then, is there is a file on the tape called "ABSTRACT LISTING", then I would run the utility again and LOAD that file onto your Windows/Linux host and examine (view) it there. Then you'll know exactly what file(s) you'll want to LOAD onto your VM/CE system. But then maybe that's just me. :) --------------------- (*) FYI: (shameless plug) My HercGUI product () also makes Hercules's VMFPLC2 utility much easier to use too. Some of the later ones are in BLOKTAP format.Is that different from TAPE format? If it is, then I don't think Hercules's vmfplc2.exe utility will be able to handle it. It only supports the newer VMFPLC2 format or the older TAPE format. I've never heard of BLOKTAP format before. Is BLOKTAP format documented anywhere? Maybe Hercules's utility can be updated to support that VM tape format too? HTH -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@... |
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-----Original Message-----Generally yes, but the workshop tapes all have "abstract listing" as the first file... I actually find your VMFPLC2 a tad un-helpful on these tapes. On VM you can do a "VMFPLC2 SCAN" which lists the contents of the first physical file, so up to the first tape mark. This only has the "ABSTRACT LISTING" so then a "VMFPLC2 REW" and a "VMFPLC2 LOAD" to get the contents. You can then read that, and use the FSF , SCAN, REW and LOAD to position the tape, check the contents of that physical file and load it.... .. on windows you do a scan and you get all the tape, about 300 files, then you need to build a control file to get the ones you want. I think it would be good to have options to skip so many tape marks and only list so many physical files.. .. but that¡¯s just me... Dave |
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Dave Wade wrote:
[...] I actually find your VMFPLC2 a tad un-helpful on these tapes.Touch¨¦. :) So Hercules's SCAN always lists the contents of the *entire* tape, which you'd rather it not do? You'd rather have the ability to limit the SCAN function to only ONE specific physical (tapemark delimited) file? Yes? And you'd also rather not have to manually build the ctlfile in order to LOAD only the specific file(s) you want? Yes? How about this: make the <ctlfile> an optional argument for the SCAN function, which, when specified, specifies the name of the <ctlfile> that you want SCAN to automatically *create* for you instead? (i.e. when specified, the tape's contents would not be shown, but rather would simply be written to the specified output file instead. Then to easily LOAD only the file(s) you want, you could simply edit that file and either delete (or comment out) all of the file(s) you *didn't* want, and then specify that <ctlfile> in your LOAD command. Does that sound like something that would make Hercules's vmfplc2 utility a little easier to use? -------------------- Just as an explanation, Herc's vmfplc2 will never be as easy to use as VM's, due to the need for a <ctlfile> due to the difference in the processing hosts. VM's VMFPLC2 tool's filesystem is quite different from your Hercules host's, as well as its data format too (EBCDIC vs. ASCII) and the fact that on VM, it's able to physically position the physical input tape and it will stay there until the next command is issued, whereas on your Hercules host, each time a new command is issued, the input tape always starts out positioned at loadpoint each time (not to mention the need to be able to "translate" a CMS filename to/from a Linux/Windows host filename for the DUMP and LOAD functions). Thus the need for a <ctlfile>. Hopefully my proposed change will make creating/using <ctlfile>'s a little bit easier. I'd appreciate your thoughts, Dave. Thanks! -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@... |
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On Mon, 26 Aug 2024 at 15:05, Fish Fish via <david.b.trout=[email protected]> wrote: [...] Just as an explanation, Herc's vmfplc2 will never be as easy to use as VM's, due to the need for a <ctlfile> due to the difference in the processing hosts. VM's VMFPLC2 tool's filesystem is quite different from your Hercules host's, as well as its data format too (EBCDIC vs. ASCII) and the fact that on VM, it's able to physically position the physical input tape and it will stay there until the next command is issued, whereas on your Hercules host, each time a new command is issued, the input tape always starts out positioned at loadpoint each time (not to mention the need to be able to "translate" a CMS filename to/from a Linux/Windows host filename for the DUMP and LOAD functions). Um, why does a tape in these circumstances not stay where it was left? Who is rewinding/"resetting" to loadpoint
(but presumably not unloading) each time, and why? I guess in my experience it's very common on VM to use TAPE/VMFPLC2 to browse quite interactively, and the Hercules version seems to be more oriented to batch operation where you know in advance exactly what you want to do. Tony H. |
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-----Original Message-----A scan of the waterloo tape I have produces nearly 4000 lines of output, so yes, loess might be more.... You'd rather have the ability to limit the SCAN function toWell of course I am greedy so a range would be good, so something like -files n<-m> Well yes... How about this: make the <ctlfile> an optional argument for the SCANSounds good. Then to easily LOAD only the file(s) you want, you could simply edit that fileYes, I mean for the Waterloo tape it may not be necessary to delete but yes it would be good... Does that sound like something that would make Hercules's vmfplc2 utility aYes Yes, I realize not being able to maintain position between commands creates a design challenge... Hopefully my proposed change will make creating/using <ctlfile>'s a little bitI think that¡¯s a good compromise. Have an auto generated control is a big plus. One last wish. Would it be possible to support tapes written using BLOCKTAP. We have quite a few tapes written using this.... .. the source is on here... --Dave |
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Tony Harminc wrote:
Fish wrote:Because the Hercules vmfplc2.exe utility is not the same thing as the Hercules emulator. It's just a simple command-line program. Hercules must emulate a real tape device, and real tape devices can be positioned and will remain positioned until unloaded. Host command line commands can also position themselves to any point within a file, but once the utility exits, the next time you issue that same command line again, it has no idea what the previous command did. It's just a one-time-shot file processing command. For example: on Linux, I believe there is a tool/utility (i.e. command line command) called "head", yes? Entering the command "head -n 10 myfile.txt" will display the first 10 lines of the file. But entering the same command again, does not display the next 10 lines. It will display the exact same first 10 lines exactly like before. It has no idea what the previous command did. It has no idea where the previous command left off at. The same is true with Hercules's vmfplc2 utility. It doesn't run under the Hercules emulator itself. It runs under the host (Windows or Linux, etc). Each time you enter the command, it starts "fresh". Who is rewinding/"resetting" to loadpoint (but presumably notYour host operating system (Windows or Linux) in combination with the vmfplc2 executable itself. Each time it is run, it begins fresh. Each invocation knows nothing about any previous invocation. I guess in my experience it's very common on VM to use TAPE/VMFPLC2Well... VM's VMFPLC2 command is not interactive. It, like Hercules's vmfplc2 command, is not written to be interactive. It, just like Hercules, does one thing each time and that's it. But one of the things it is able to do is issue commands to tape devices, which are then processed by the Hercules emulator, which then positions the emulated tape device as requested and REMEMBERS (for as long as Hercules remains up and running!) where that tape device is positioned at. So the next time the VMFPLC2 is issued, its "input file" (tape device) is still position where the previous command left off at. If the file that Hercules's vmfplc2 command was reading was actually a real physical tape device, then yeah, it would behave pretty much identically to VM's, because that's the way real tape devices behave. But Hercules's vmfplc2 command is not reading a real tape device. It's reading an ordinary binary Windows/Linux disk file. And Windows/Linux doses not remember where each command "left off at"! It's not an emulator! Is that clear now? Does all that make any sense? -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@... |
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Dave Wade wrote:
Fish wrote:[...] Great! I'll see what I can do!Does that sound like something that would make Hercules'sYes [...] Yes, I realize not being able to maintain position betweenIndeed! [...] One last wish. Would it be possible to support tapes writtenI can't say. I would need to know about the BLOKTAP format first. We have quite a few tapes written using this....Hmmm... You mean "BLOCKTAP"?! (Doh!) Silly me! You wrote "BLOKTAP" in one of your earlier emails, which I had never heard of before. I also did a "find" on all of my emails from this group for "bloktap" and "blocktap" and apparently there have been many emails containing both words which I'm presuming were all referring to the same thing: Steven Howes's BLOCKTAP command: * Yes? Correct? If so, then my answer changes to "probably". I haven't read through the entire thing yet (nor bothered to study the BLOCKTAP command's actual source code yet), but if all it is, is the same thing as the existing TAPE format but using 32K block sizes instead, then I have to say it certainly sounds simple enough. So yeah, I think the chances are good that I'll be able to add support for that tape format. But let me make those other changes first. They take priority. Once they're working properly, then I'll try to add support for BLOCKTAP format. And as always, I can't say how long it'll take me to make these changes either. My main focus right now is with helping to get 4.8 out the door. It takes priority right now. But when I find myself with a bit of free time here and there I'll certainly work on this change for you. Cool? -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@... |
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-----Original Message-----I believe it works for any tape i/o. I haven't looked at the code either, but it must put extra information on the tape because it correctly handles short blocks... So yeah, I think the chances are good that I'll be able to add support for thatOf course And as always, I can't say how long it'll take me to make these changes either.Very cool Fish. Whenever you have a moment. --Dave |
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Dave Wade wrote:
[...] I think that¡¯s a good compromise. Have an auto generated controlDo you (or anyone else) have such a tape that I could get a copy of? The other part of your requested changes have been completed. The only thing remaining is the support for BLOCKTAP format request. I'd like to have one I could test with. Thanks. -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@... |
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In?
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On Tuesday, September 17, 2024, 3:02 PM, Fish Fish <david.b.trout@...> wrote:
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Hi, Fish,
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That BLOCKTAP thing is like an MS-DOS TSR -- you start it up, then it remains active and any commands you use to read or write a tape go through BLOCKTAP.??
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So, all you need to do to "test" it is to load it, then have a blank tape attached, and do a TAPE DUMP or VMFPLC2 DUMP of some stuff.? ?Then, rewind the tape, then attempt to read the tape, e.g. TAPE LOAD or VMFPLC2 LOAD.
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HTH,
Mark S. Waterbury |
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Mark Waterbury wrote:
Hi, Fish,I'm not interested in testing BLOCKTAP. to load it, then have a blank tape attached, and do a TAPE DUMPSo are you volunteering to do the first part of that for me and then send me the resulting tape? -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@... |
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Disregard i don¡¯t even remember sending an email
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Laddie Hanus On Tuesday, September 17, 2024, 6:21 PM, Fish Fish <david.b.trout@...> wrote:
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Hello!
I don't know either, amazing individual in scales and fins. Also and this a word to the group for this thread only, it is temporarily being moderated. Strange? What's that bubbly noise coming from a flat in a soggy part of the Pacific NW? Oh right it is an aerator in a large fish tank. ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@... "This signature was present when the impossible happened 23 years ago, twice." On Tue, Sep 17, 2024 at 8:21?PM Fish Fish via groups.io <david.b.trout@...> wrote:
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Check your system for malware then?
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It contained a link to "mail (dot) onelink (dot) me" that, upon searching the web, appears to *possibly* be malware related? (not sure) (Or is that just your email signature?) -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@... -----Original Message----- |
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Gregg Levine wrote:
[...] What's that bubbly noise coming from a flat in aAn aerator? Cool! My wife will be glad to hear that! (She has asthma.) Thanks, Gregg! ;-) -- "Fish" (David B. Trout) Software Development Laboratories mail: fish@... |
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On Tue, Sep 17, 2024 at 04:02 PM, Fish Fish wrote:
Do you (or anyone else) have such a tape that I could get a copy of? I am uploading a zipped AWS tape which requires BLOCKTAP ON for vmfplc2 to scan beyond the first file.
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Look for 1987.87TL.AWS.zip in a VMWORKSHOP folder.
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?... Mark S |
Mark A. Stevens
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