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I will echo Demetre Julian - we're not trying to drive you off - and
I suppose your comment " Due to the intemperate diatribe directed at
me by another member of this list" was directed to me - if so I
apologize if you took it as being intemperate.

But you keep insisting on things being one way when the laws of
physics have time and time and time again proven them to different.
You keep asking for help in trying to solve a problem that appears by
conventional theory, unsolveable. Also in some ways, not in need of a
solution - you might be perceiving a problem that doesn't exist.

A lot of people have offered you a lot of good help and tried to
point you in the direction to where you can help yourself more.
Eventually, people tend to get weary of pointing their finger in the
same direction.

I never studied Physics in school. I had to finish 6 months after the
rest of my class due to a run in with an instructor of a required
course. I never went to college. I could have if hadn't I been lazy
and bored by school. (I used to read books in primary school upside
down because it was more of a challange - helped in later in business
when sitting accross the desk from a customer or sales rep)

But I was curious about things wireless, and I read - a lot -
practically everything I could ever get my hands on about
antennas..... and a good amount of it from antenna companies is BUNK.

When I first started reading Moxon's book, after about 2 chapters, I
had such a headache, you wouldn't beleive!!! I didn't get a lot of it
at first, or at the second reading.... but I kept at it, and
experimented - a lot of them were failures, but others were
fantastic.

I was able to work all states and about 30 or more countries with a
12' dipole made from mobile whips that was 3' off my second story
balcony of a 4 story building of wiremesh and concrete running 50
watts. That was about my 10th attempt for a good working antenna at
that QTH.

So keep at it - maybe you will find the secret - here is a hint:
Moxon talks about radials for a vertical that are shortened with
loading coils working better than full length ones.... haven't had
the time to try it, but that may be the holy grail you seek - try
using your ATX as the "counterpoise" for the MP1 - see what that
does.... I am anxious to find out - and make the lower mast of the
MP1 about 3' - that should yield between 3 - 6 db better signal. And
maybe mount it on a camera tripod so it is higher and the "radial" is
less coupled to the earth - yes - a L-pole - I think it is your best
chance.

73

Don
W6ZO



--- In FT817@y..., "Demetre Valaris - SV1UY" <sv1uy@s...> wrote:

--- In FT817@y..., julian@t... wrote:

Thanks, Demetre.

I did download the W4RNL article but it was a bit much to get my

head

round. It is a very long time since I did school physics and

learnt

about fields and stuff. All I actually wanted to do was find a

way

to

tune the MP-1 so it presented a good SWR and I could use it with

the

817 without a tuner.

Due to the intemperate diatribe directed at me by another member

of

this list I no longer wish to contribute, so I shall unsubscribe

now

and let you carry on discussing computer software and opening up
receive coverage and similar matters in peace. Perhaps in a few
months I will once again be able to go up in the mountains and

use

my

817 as I intended, and perhaps one day, Demetre, I shall have the
pleasure of a QSO with you.

Until then, 73.

Julian, G4ILO

Hi Julian,

No need to be so radical man. I think everyone is trying to help
here, not to send members of the group away. After all these Groups
are for this reason, where we can all tell our opinion and help

each

other. Nobody here is expected to be a rocket scientist and I do

not

anyone of us here is.

On the other hand perhaps you could continue this discussion to a
more specialized group such as the HFpack. If you are not already a
member of it, I think it would be a good idea joining it.

As for a QSO with me Julian I am visiting the UK on 20 July and

will

stay there for 2 weeks. Please e-mail me privately if you like to
sv1uy@y... telling me if you are going to be there.

Also I will be QRV this Sunday at 04.00z on 18,157 KHZ and at

08.00z

on 28,337 KHZ and at 08.15z on 21,437 KHZ on my Sunday trek at Mt.
Ymittos talking to Keith G4MSF and Terry G0EHX. You are welcome to
call me. Feel free to break the QSO.

73 de Demetre SV1UY

--- In FT817@y..., don@h... wrote:

Moxon talks about radials for a vertical that are shortened with
loading coils working better than full length ones.... haven't had
the time to try it, but that may be the holy grail you

Don
W6ZO

Hello Don & Julian,,
Something I have just tried, maybe because I read it somewhere.
This is part of another message I have just posted.
Rgds -- David

One thing I did try with my 10M Maldol whip,
and the results are interesting..
Instead of trailing @ 8' wire which was O.K, but SWR bounces
while moving, I wrapped the wire round a 1/2" dia rod, then
removed it. I then stretched the windings into a @ a 2' long coil,
that just dangles by my side.
I still can get a 1/2 bars SWR...
But it seems less sensitive to movement. YMMV.

--- In FT817@y..., don@h... wrote:

A lot of people have offered you a lot of good help and tried to
point you in the direction to where you can help yourself more.

Here is a link to somebody else who uses the "Noise Tune Method".
The whole thing is actually interesting.

Best Regards
David

Julian G4ILO wrote:

Surely, in an ideal situation, with a perfect ground,
the ground acts as a constant reference point and all
the RF energy will go into the vertical radiating element?

Think about how electricity flows:
There are two wires coming out of your mains outlet.
Both of these wires carry the same current.

The same is true for a quarterwave vertical antenna. Current flows and
RF is radiated by "both halves" of the system.

Bonnie KQ6XA

Yes, this is true if you are using just one or two elevated radials.
However, if you use three or more equally spaced radials the lobes from each
combine to cancel most of the radiation from the radials and the majority of
your signal is radiated from the vertical element creating the omni
directional pattern. As someone suggested earlier, I think you will find the
article entitled "Verticals Without Vertigo" by W4RNL at
to be quite enlightening. He has done a
great deal of antenna modeling as well as experiments with physical
antennas. Some of his results are quite surprising.

I have been experimenting with a pair of Maldol whips configured as a
dipole. I have tried it both vertical and horizontal and though I have made
contacts both ways the results have been disappointing.

So this afternoon I threw together a simple wire vertical by taping 11 feet
of wire (resonant on 15 meters) to a fiber glass pole. I set the butt of the
pole down on a concrete patio and tied it vertical to the patio railing with
a short piece of dacron rope. Then stretched out a single 11' piece of wire
at the base and just laid it on a concrete walkway. I fed it directly to my
Z11 tuner by using an alligator clip to the vertical wire with a banana plug
on the other end into the tuner. The horizontal wire is attached directly to
the Z11 with a hose clamp around one of the coax connectors on the back. The
Z11 does Its thing and loads this kludge on all bands from 40-10 meters. So
far I have made several contacts on 20, 17, 15 and 10 meters. It certainly
doesn't compare to my two element quad at 65 feet but it runs rings around
the Maldol's and should be satisfactory for picnic table and hotel balcony
portable.

----
73, Rich - W3ZJ

"David Henn" <drhenn@y...> wrote:

Here is a link to somebody else who uses the "Noise Tune Method".
The whole thing is actually interesting.

Very similar to what I did with my modified RS back-of-set antenna and
then with a radio-mounted MP-1. First adjust for noise, then adjust
for SWR. One caution others have raised is that the FT-817 SWR null
may not be set for 50 ohms so the "SWR" seen isn't acutally what we
might think it is. However, if the antenna is accepting power and the
transmitter is not turning itself down with ALC, the result is the
same.

Cortland

However, if you don't like current delivered to your counterpoise,

you

can replace the antenna with a 50 ohm resistor :-)

Bonnie KQ6XA

Ooooo!! That was cruel, Bonnie. ;-)

72 de Tony, VE3TNW

Tony VE3TNW

Ooooo!! That was cruel, Bonnie. ;-)

I apologize.

Bonnie KQ6XA