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On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 10:27 PM, Joseph Wonoski wrote:
If you have a fully adjustable power supply for voltage and current limiting, all of that can be lumped together as a single overall limit to suit the entire setup observing the specs of all elements. It's from that perspective that I commented.
Yep, and fully understood ;-)
?
My so called bench PSU failed a few years back, not got around to replacing it,
but I used to use that for charging my 7ah gell cell.
?
(Will one day build my own when I get time).
?
In the meantime I just insert a 22 Ohm wirewound resistor in series with a bog
standard 13.8v PSU and that does the trick.
?
?
73 de Andy
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If you have a fully adjustable power supply for voltage and current limiting, all of that can be lumped together as a single overall limit to suit the entire setup observing the specs of all elements. It's from that perspective that I commented. Joe?
On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 4:52 PM, G0FTD via groups.io <andyfoad@...> wrote: On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 12:15 AM, Joseph Wonoski wrote:
So you're saying that there's two kinds of current limits?
Yes and no.
?
The initial inrush current *could* be interpreted as what your charger PSU
might have to handle if you try charging a discharged pack with it and
thus the charger / psu should really be built to handle this current if
you don't want to let out any magic smoke from it.
?
This is normally higher than the SAFE charging / float current, which of course
should be limited to approc 1/10th of cell capacity.
?
So if you had a 10ah pack then you never really want to have 1 amp flowing
at any one time into it, otherwise you you'll screw the cell pack.
?
That's it ;-)
?
Andy
?
?
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On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 12:15 AM, Joseph Wonoski wrote:
So you're saying that there's two kinds of current limits?
Yes and no.
?
The initial inrush current *could* be interpreted as what your charger PSU
might have to handle if you try charging a discharged pack with it and
thus the charger / psu should really be built to handle this current if
you don't want to let out any magic smoke from it.
?
This is normally higher than the SAFE charging / float current, which of course
should be limited to approc 1/10th of cell capacity.
?
So if you had a 10ah pack then you never really want to have 1 amp flowing
at any one time into it, otherwise you you'll screw the cell pack.
?
That's it ;-)
?
Andy
?
?
|
On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 12:13 AM, Joseph Wonoski wrote:
Too bad Single Malt Scotch doesn't come that size. ?
Yeah, can'r even fit a miniature in it, grrr.
?
73 de Andy
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Hmmmm, a coax looking straw perhaps
Mike WA1MAD
Too bad Single Malt Scotch doesn't come that size. ?
Joe? On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 6:03 PM, G0FTD via On Mon, Oct 7, 2024 at 11:05 PM, James Todd wrote:
Way back in the day, I knew a fellow who used the space for a memory keyer, CW filter, and something else.? He had to use external batteries anyway, so that saved some space for other things. With SMD s and tiny relays, there might be enough space in there for an antenna, tuner.?
I've used it for carrying antenna wire, 7m or so for a fishing rod vertical antenna and a few
meters of wire for a radial, spare fuses, and a pack of chewing gum for when my bottle(s) of water run
out down the beach, just to give my mouth some livation.
?
Maybe we should have a discussion about what else the cell compartment could be used for ?
?
Simple first aid kit ?
Ham license paperwork / bandplans ?
Small note pad and pen for logging / QSO notes ?
Earbuds ?
Emergency ciggerettes and lighter for when out DXPEDITION goes sour and stranded on a desert island ;-)
Mini torch / flashlight / gas lighter ?
Candy ?
Condoms ? (OK JUST JOKING!!)
?
73 de Andy
?
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So you're saying that there's two kinds of current limits?
On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 5:44 PM, G0FTD via groups.io <andyfoad@...> wrote: On Tue, Oct 8, 2024 at 11:00 PM, Joseph Wonoski wrote:
The Power Sonic one sitting in front of me as I type has the information printed directly on the case.
Standby use 13.6 V
Cyclic use 14.4 - 15.0 V
Initial current limit 2.1 A
?
Just for reference, initial current limit is NOT the safe limit.
?
It only specifies what the pack initially draws from a deep discharge.
?
If the initial current limit is greater than 1/10th cell capacity then you
screw your pack :-(
?
Repeat -?
?
If the initial current limit is greater than 1/10th cell capacity then you
screw your pack :-(
No way in hell would I let any pack of mine go beyone that, I proved that the
hard way of course.
?
73 de Andy
?
?
|
Too bad Single Malt Scotch doesn't come that size. ?
On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 6:03 PM, G0FTD via groups.io <andyfoad@...> wrote: On Mon, Oct 7, 2024 at 11:05 PM, James Todd wrote:
Way back in the day, I knew a fellow who used the space for a memory keyer, CW filter, and something else. ?He had to use external batteries anyway, so that saved some space for other things. With SMD s and tiny relays, there might be enough space in there for an antenna, tuner.?
I've used it for carrying antenna wire, 7m or so for a fishing rod vertical antenna and a few
meters of wire for a radial, spare fuses, and a pack of chewing gum for when my bottle(s) of water run
out down the beach, just to give my mouth some livation.
?
Maybe we should have a discussion about what else the cell compartment could be used for ?
?
Simple first aid kit ?
Ham license paperwork / bandplans ?
Small note pad and pen for logging / QSO notes ?
Earbuds ?
Emergency ciggerettes and lighter for when out DXPEDITION goes sour and stranded on a desert island ;-)
Mini torch / flashlight / gas lighter ?
Candy ?
Condoms ? (OK JUST JOKING!!)
?
73 de Andy
?
|
On Mon, Oct 7, 2024 at 11:05 PM, James Todd wrote:
Way back in the day, I knew a fellow who used the space for a memory keyer, CW filter, and something else. ?He had to use external batteries anyway, so that saved some space for other things. With SMD s and tiny relays, there might be enough space in there for an antenna, tuner.?
I've used it for carrying antenna wire, 7m or so for a fishing rod vertical antenna and a few
meters of wire for a radial, spare fuses, and a pack of chewing gum for when my bottle(s) of water run
out down the beach, just to give my mouth some livation.
?
Maybe we should have a discussion about what else the cell compartment could be used for ?
?
Simple first aid kit ?
Ham license paperwork / bandplans ?
Small note pad and pen for logging / QSO notes ?
Earbuds ?
Emergency ciggerettes and lighter for when out DXPEDITION goes sour and stranded on a desert island ;-)
Mini torch / flashlight / gas lighter ?
Candy ?
Condoms ? (OK JUST JOKING!!)
?
73 de Andy
?
|
On Tue, Oct 8, 2024 at 11:00 PM, Joseph Wonoski wrote:
The Power Sonic one sitting in front of me as I type has the information printed directly on the case.
Standby use 13.6 V
Cyclic use 14.4 - 15.0 V
Initial current limit 2.1 A
?
Just for reference, initial current limit is NOT the safe limit.
?
It only specifies what the pack initially draws from a deep discharge.
?
If the initial current limit is greater than 1/10th cell capacity then you
screw your pack :-(
?
Repeat -?
?
If the initial current limit is greater than 1/10th cell capacity then you
screw your pack :-(
No way in hell would I let any pack of mine go beyone that, I proved that the
hard way of course.
?
73 de Andy
?
?
|
On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 10:27 AM, Mike EI9FEB wrote:
PS / Alarm / Security / Emergency light gel packs are the worse as the assumption is that they are not regularly deep discharged. One or two deep discharges destroys them.
These devices do destroy gel cells that have been discharged, but there's two
ESSENTIAL conditions here that need to be understood as to why.
?
1 - A too deep discharge below about 10.5v without them being re-charged
is the killer. Assumes something like a 12v gel cell.
?
and
?
2 - The crappy inbuilt chargers dont have the current limiting, and the gel cell gets
a what of maybe 1.5 - 2 amps before settling down after about an hour or two.
?
It's too much for the batery chemistry to survive, and should ALWAYS be limited to
1/10th of pack capacity. All it needs is a current limiting resistor, and my experience
of things like UPS's and emergency lights etc has shown that they never bother
to include this vital but utterly essential component.
?
Please please re-read my advice ;-)
?
If you don't observe thes rules then you kill the pack, simple.
?
73 de Andy
?
?
|
But alarm/security gel packs I assume you mean used ones that have been in float for long periods of time.
On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 5:27 AM, Mike EI9FEB <ei9feb@...> wrote: Making up a NiMH pack without the tray (file / sand a corner and solder) fits fine with any model of NIMH. Avoid ones claimed to be 2700 mAH or higher unless you know they are good. I've had to replace nominal 12V packs in test gear that used spot welded AA cells.
UPS / Alarm / Security / Emergency light gel packs are the worse as the assumption is that they are not regularly deep discharged. One or two deep discharges destroys them.
The internal battery compartment is a feature and no worse than any handheld CB using NiMH and maybe 5x better run time than 1970s AA NiCd cells (2500 mAH vs 450 to 500 mAH)
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Making up a NiMH pack without the tray (file / sand a corner and solder) fits fine with any model of NIMH. Avoid ones claimed to be 2700 mAH or higher unless you know they are good. I've had to replace nominal 12V packs in test gear that used spot welded AA cells.
UPS / Alarm / Security / Emergency light gel packs are the worse as the assumption is that they are not regularly deep discharged. One or two deep discharges destroys them.
The internal battery compartment is a feature and no worse than any handheld CB using NiMH and maybe 5x better run time than 1970s AA NiCd cells (2500 mAH vs 450 to 500 mAH)
|
In my view, the internal battery storage compartment is superior to the alternative, which is some kind of proprietary backpack style lipo.
I find that the FT817/FT818 internal battery storage is much more flexible and diy friendly than alternatives in the amateur radio world.
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Show quoted text
On Mon, Oct 7, 2024 at 05:02 PM, Joseph Wonoski wrote: Although I remain a
Yaesu fan, I view the internal battery compartment feature as a fundamental
failure along with the internal charging control. I use the space for spare
fuses and such.? ?FWIW, JMHO, YMMV, etc.
Joe N1KHB?
Sent from AOL on Android
On Mon, Oct 7, 2024 at 4:46 PM, G0FTD via
groups.io<andyfoad@...> wrote: On Sun, Oct 6, 2024 at
10:17 PM, Andy GD1MIP wrote:
Thanks all, I have reverted to the dry cell tray and some NiMH AA cells whilst
I ponder my options.
Just another small note.?Just about all rechargable cells like AA type are
over size physically.?Bulging battery compartment syndrome etc.?ENELOOP
cells use the correct dimensions as well as having a VERY low self
dischargerate. You can leave them for months when charged, unlike NiCd / other
NiMH chemistrytypes that goes dead after a few months, and do not
recover.?Sure, you can charge the older type, terminal voltage can be reached
and your whizzbangcharger says ready to go. Un oh, nope. Now try pulling some
current out of them and therig will switch off.?The other bugbear of using
the internal empty cell case is terminal resistance.?Keep this contacts clean
on the cells / springs otherwise it's like having a pack witha high internal
resistance that limits the current.?Try to run 5w output and again the rig
shuts off, grr.?That's why I keep going back to a simple ?15? external 7ah
gel cell for /P ops.?73 de Andy?
|
Except that 13 volts is too low for cyclic use. The lower voltage is intended for standby use. At least another volt higher will get you a fuller charge.? Each manufacturer has their own max charging current spec. The Power Sonic one sitting in front of me as I type has the information printed directly on the case. Standby use 13.6 V Cyclic use 14.4 - 15.0 V Initial current limit 2.1 A ? ?I personally use 14.4 V. Charging current normally doesn't reach the max spec unless I've discharged deeper than usual. I once saw a brand specs at 1.8 A, but that was years ago of some namea I don't recollect. Been using these things for decades counting work applications. That's what has always worked well.
Joe N1KHB?
On Tue, Oct 8, 2024 at 4:26 PM, G0FTD via groups.io <andyfoad@...> wrote: On Mon, Oct 7, 2024 at 10:02 PM, Joseph Wonoski wrote:
? Although I remain a Yaesu fan, I view the internal battery compartment feature as a fundamental failure along with the internal charging control. I use the space for spare fuses and such.
Hi Joe,
?
I agree it was a failure.
?
I wanted to use the space for 18650's, but it was a millimeter too small in each dimension.
?
But Martin admin says he's printed a cell pack and got it working.
?
I wonder if it's down to the cell protection that adds the extra length that spoils it.
?
Non protected cells are a tiny bit shorter.
?
Just a few extra millimeters in the cell pack area would have made all the difference, grrr.
?
But that has to be tempered with the fact that these 18650's are only really 2500-3000mah
max, so I guess even if we could have fitted them then operating time was at least in
my opinion just a bit too short for my liking, so it was back to a 7ah gel cell.
?
Cheap, easy to charge , just supply with 13v current limited to about 700ma as we have both agreed.
?
73 de Andy
?
?
|
Thanks Andy, I've ordered the Windcamp battery, door kit a few days ago and today on Prime day, ordered 4,18650 batteries, a 3 cell holder and charger. My "plan" is to incorporate the 3 batteries and holder into the compartment, with a Powerpole cord to plug into the Windcanp power adapter. Now I may be a bit low on voltage, at 11.1vdc. but it may work. Just playing around with ideas.?
Mike WA1MAD
On Oct 8, 2024 4:26 PM, "G0FTD via groups.io" <andyfoad@...> wrote: On Mon, Oct 7, 2024 at 10:02 PM, Joseph Wonoski wrote:
? Although I remain a Yaesu fan, I view the internal battery compartment feature as a fundamental failure along with the internal charging control. I use the space for spare fuses and such.
Hi Joe,
?
I agree it was a failure.
?
I wanted to use the space for 18650's, but it was a millimeter too small in each dimension.
?
But Martin admin says he's printed a cell pack and got it working.
?
I wonder if it's down to the cell protection that adds the extra length that spoils it.
?
Non protected cells are a tiny bit shorter.
?
Just a few extra millimeters in the cell pack area would have made all the difference, grrr.
?
But that has to be tempered with the fact that these 18650's are only really 2500-3000mah
max, so I guess even if we could have fitted them then operating time was at least in
my opinion just a bit too short for my liking, so it was back to a 7ah gel cell.
?
Cheap, easy to charge , just supply with 13v current limited to about 700ma as we have both agreed.
?
73 de Andy
?
?
|
On Mon, Oct 7, 2024 at 10:02 PM, Joseph Wonoski wrote:
? Although I remain a Yaesu fan, I view the internal battery compartment feature as a fundamental failure along with the internal charging control. I use the space for spare fuses and such.
Hi Joe,
?
I agree it was a failure.
?
I wanted to use the space for 18650's, but it was a millimeter too small in each dimension.
?
But Martin admin says he's printed a cell pack and got it working.
?
I wonder if it's down to the cell protection that adds the extra length that spoils it.
?
Non protected cells are a tiny bit shorter.
?
Just a few extra millimeters in the cell pack area would have made all the difference, grrr.
?
But that has to be tempered with the fact that these 18650's are only really 2500-3000mah
max, so I guess even if we could have fitted them then operating time was at least in
my opinion just a bit too short for my liking, so it was back to a 7ah gel cell.
?
Cheap, easy to charge , just supply with 13v current limited to about 700ma as we have both agreed.
?
73 de Andy
?
?
|
I seem to recall that someone fitted an Elecraft T1 automatic antenna matcher into the battery compartment of an 817 some years ago. ? ?
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Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Michael Davis via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, 8 October 2024 09:10
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [ft817] Internal battery FT-817ND? Ha ha, that space for a tuner would be wonderful. I’m using the LDG 817 tuner in hopes It’ll keep me from “cooking” the finals. Thanks
On Oct 7, 2024, at 6:05?PM, James Todd via groups.io <toddjam@...> wrote:
? Way back in the day, I knew a fellow who used the space for a memory keyer, CW filter, and something else. ?He had to use external batteries anyway, so that saved some space for other things. With SMD s and tiny relays, there might be enough space in there for an antenna, tuner.?
|
Ha ha, that space for a tuner would be wonderful. I’m using the LDG 817 tuner in hopes It’ll keep me from “cooking” the finals. Thanks Mike Davis WA1MAD
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 7, 2024, at 6:05?PM, James Todd via groups.io <toddjam@...> wrote:
? Way back in the day, I knew a fellow who used the space for a memory keyer, CW filter, and something else. ?He had to use external batteries anyway, so that saved some space for other things. With SMD s and tiny relays, there might be enough space in there for an antenna, tuner.?
|
Way back in the day, I knew a fellow who used the space for a memory keyer, CW filter, and something else. ?He had to use external batteries anyway, so that saved some space for other things. With SMD s and tiny relays, there might be enough space in there for an antenna, tuner.?
|
I too favor gel batteries. Low initial cost is a driving factor along with a simple charging? protocol. If one is concerned about extra internal heat being generated, just put one or two 5 amp rectifiers in series. They too generate heat, but it remains outside of the radio. ? ? Although I remain a Yaesu fan, I view the internal battery compartment feature as a fundamental failure along with the internal charging control. I use the space for spare fuses and such. ? ?FWIW, JMHO, YMMV, etc.
On Mon, Oct 7, 2024 at 4:46 PM, G0FTD via groups.io <andyfoad@...> wrote: On Sun, Oct 6, 2024 at 10:17 PM, Andy GD1MIP wrote:
Thanks all, I have reverted to the dry cell tray and some NiMH AA cells whilst I ponder my options.
Just another small note.
?
Just about all rechargable cells like AA type are over size physically.
?
Bulging battery compartment syndrome etc.
?
ENELOOP cells use the correct dimensions as well as having a VERY low self discharge
rate. You can leave them for months when charged, unlike NiCd / other NiMH chemistry
types that goes dead after a few months, and do not recover.
?
Sure, you can charge the older type, terminal voltage can be reached and your whizzbang
charger says ready to go. Un oh, nope. Now try pulling some current out of them and the
rig will switch off.
?
The other bugbear of using the internal empty cell case is terminal resistance.
?
Keep this contacts clean on the cells / springs otherwise it's like having a pack with
a high internal resistance that limits the current.
?
Try to run 5w output and again the rig shuts off, grr.
?
That's why I keep going back to a simple ?15? external 7ah gel cell for /P ops.
?
73 de Andy
?
|
Mike EI9FEB
Michael Davis