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Hi all,
I'm sure there are folks here that have processed plain sawn Sapele (sometimes called African Mahogany). Has anyone experienced stability issues with plain sawn Sapele?
I came across 100 bdft of the wood (5/4) 6 months ago and it's been in the shop acclimating (shop has HVAC). I would have rather had quarter sawn but they were out. This morning I planed down a board, taking equal number of passes on each side for cabinet face frames, they also started moving after dimensioning them. This movement is 0.25" or more and some boards are moving in the face and edge directions. ?The face frame grain looks uniform and the end grain doesn't appear to directional changes. At this point I'm not sure if the lack of stability is characteristic of plain sawn Sapele or just the board I picked. I generally don't experience this with White Oak, Cherry or Walnut. I'm doing another test where I process this material more slowly to see if the woods behavior changes, but this will take weeks. I experienced this issue before when processing Zebra wood for a project.
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Thanks in advance,
Darrell Miller
Chico, Tx
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Hey Darrell,
I made a few morris chairs out of 'African?Mahogany' years ago, so maybe 100+/- bdft? I experienced an abnormal of movement post-processing like you describe. Now, 'sapele' from my lumber yard is a different animal. Ive made many a project from sapele and love the stuff. Exterior door, large 15' dining table, plenty of island tops, smaller coffee table, smattering of cutting boards, and a maloof lowback. Overall, i have?3-4,000bdft of experience with it. The only real downside is it can sometimes have microchecks/fractures in the middle of a board that are impossible to spot in the rough. I dont know if its a drying defect specific to sapele or something inherent to the growth, but it can suck to discover right before finishing. Post a photo of your boards, but from my experience sapele is a darker red tone and denser than the african mahogany. I have never seen sapele/african mahogany marketed as the same set of species. The African Mahogany i used was lighter in color similar to freshly planed Honduran Mahogany, if you have ever built with the stuff.?
Patrick
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 3:16?PM DARRELL MILLER via <dmiller823a= [email protected]> wrote: Hi all,
I'm sure there are folks here that have processed plain sawn Sapele (sometimes called African Mahogany). Has anyone experienced stability issues with plain sawn Sapele?
I came across 100 bdft of the wood (5/4) 6 months ago and it's been in the shop acclimating (shop has HVAC). I would have rather had quarter sawn but they were out. This morning I planed down a board, taking equal number of passes on each side for cabinet face frames, they also started moving after dimensioning them. This movement is 0.25" or more and some boards are moving in the face and edge directions.? The face frame grain looks uniform and the end grain doesn't appear to directional changes. At this point I'm not sure if the lack of stability is characteristic of plain sawn Sapele or just the board I picked. I generally don't experience this with White Oak, Cherry or Walnut. I'm doing another test where I process this material more slowly to see if the woods behavior changes, but this will take weeks. I experienced this issue before when processing Zebra wood for a project.
?
Thanks in advance,
Darrell Miller
Chico, Tx
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Darrell,
Just curious did you throw a moisture meter on it?
Thx,
Wade
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On Feb 19, 2025, at 12:16 PM, DARRELL MILLER via groups.io <dmiller823a@...> wrote:
? Hi all,
I'm sure there are folks here that have processed plain sawn Sapele (sometimes called African Mahogany). Has anyone experienced stability issues with plain sawn Sapele?
I came across 100 bdft of the wood (5/4) 6 months ago and it's been in the shop acclimating (shop has HVAC). I would have rather had quarter sawn but they were out. This morning I planed down a board, taking equal number of passes on each side for cabinet face frames, they also started moving after dimensioning them. This movement is 0.25" or more and some boards are moving in the face and edge directions. ?The face frame grain looks uniform and the end grain doesn't appear to directional changes. At this point I'm not sure if the lack of stability is characteristic of plain sawn Sapele or just the board I picked. I generally don't experience this with White Oak, Cherry or Walnut. I'm doing another test where I process this material more slowly to see if the woods behavior changes, but this will take weeks. I experienced this issue before when processing Zebra wood for a project.
?
Thanks in advance,
Darrell Miller
Chico, Tx
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Darrel, I gave up using Sapele after a simular experience to you. Try looking for Sipo, it looks very similar, but is so much more stable. Kindest Regards
Jonathan Samways
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Darrell,
Just curious did you throw a moisture meter on it?
Thx,
Wade On Feb 19, 2025, at 12:16 PM, DARRELL MILLER via <dmiller823a=[email protected]> wrote:
? Hi all,
I'm sure there are folks here that have processed plain sawn Sapele (sometimes called African Mahogany). Has anyone experienced stability issues with plain sawn Sapele?
I came across 100 bdft of the wood (5/4) 6 months ago and it's been in the shop acclimating (shop has HVAC). I would have rather had quarter sawn but they were out. This morning I planed down a board, taking equal number of passes on each side for cabinet face frames, they also started moving after dimensioning them. This movement is 0.25" or more and some boards are moving in the face and edge directions.? The face frame grain looks uniform and the end grain doesn't appear to directional changes. At this point I'm not sure if the lack of stability is characteristic of plain sawn Sapele or just the board I picked. I generally don't experience this with White Oak, Cherry or Walnut. I'm doing another test where I process this material more slowly to see if the woods behavior changes, but this will take weeks. I experienced this issue before when processing Zebra wood for a project.
?
Thanks in advance,
Darrell Miller
Chico, Tx
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Wade,
A moisture meter is one of several tools I have not acquired yet. ?But it just got placed on the top!
Thanks,
Darrell
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Patrick,
I'll post a few picks tomorrow. It's good to know Sapele could be useable.
I have a frozen water well head I need to thaw out at the moment.
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Thanks,
Darrell
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Sapele has a lot of movement. Sipo also known as Utile is a far better choice. With both these African timbers you want to mill them down slowly especially from the rough. Rough cut to length and width. Wait a day and if coming from rough do a hit and miss and wait another day to S4S to size.
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I have used sapele on the interior of a gun case and some boat parts and had no issues.? In general, I think it is known as a fairly stable and workable wood.?? ?Moisture in your material might be one problem.? Another could be the log that it was sawn from.? A tree (any tree) that grows less than vertical will have compression wood on the underside and extension wood on the upper side.? Ripping boards will expose this defect.? Care in drying will not prevent it.? Naturally, the more off vertical the growth, the greater the defect.? Its a matter of degrees (- ; )? Worst case, boards sawn from branches will also carry this defect and should not be used for furniture or fine joinery.?
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Probably the best way to avoid this material is to by from reputable suppliers that honor return sales.? No one wants to pay for a hardwood floor twice.
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The attached photo shows two sequentially sawn chair splats sawn from a single 4” thick chunk of Sapele. Note that the two splats were sawn adjacent to each other, but one twisted horribly. This happened less than five minutes after sawing. Most strange is how the cutoff on the end didn’t twist. This happened several years ago. I used the one good cutoff for the chair and kept the cutoffs and the twisted splat around for a couple of years just for grins. Most surprisingly, no further movement occurred on either of the three remaining pieces.
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I’ve worked quite alot of Sapele, and have found it notorious for moving immediately after sawing. Once in service though, it seems to be quite stable. I’m not alone with this. Other WW’rs I have met have traded their Sapele stories with me. Despite this one flaw, it remains one of my favorite woods to work.
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JB, Now you've got me really nervous! I have a couple 16/4 planks 13" x 16' in the shop for an upcoming door project. Mine are quarter sawn however. I've been planning on solid 2.25" stiles, but you've got me rethinking cutting veneers. All the Greene and Greene work I've done has been Sapele and I've not had any movement issues to speak of. I've got time to mill slowly, so I'm going to do that. I guess I can cut the stiles as if using solid and cut them up for face veneers if they go nuts.?
Jason
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612.432.2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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Here is what I am experiencing with this batch of plain sawn Sapele. Pictures below.
The first picture is a 0.5" x 24" board re-sawn 0.25". The large gap and appearance are obvious.
The second and third pictures attempt to show the cupping (0.25" worse case) and twist of the milled face frames.
From the communities comments and pictures a quarter sawn board might have fewer surprises.
Well, a lesson learned and now I have some kindling for the fireplace!
Thank all,
Darrell Miller
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I've generally had pretty good luck with Sapele, but I've only ever used quarter sawn, kiln dried stock. As Joe Calhoon suggests, slow initial milling helps, and there will inevitably be a squirrely board in there, so I try to leave a little extra when I'm rough milling for blanks.?
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Jason, I've asked a local yard about sourcing Utile, he said he'd keep me to the loop if an opportunity presents itself.?
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Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
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Darrell, that is some gnarly twist! See, your lumber is much lighter than what i associate with 'sapele', which makes me wonder if you are using actual sapele. This is where i dont?know enough to know, but some organizations saw khaya, santos, utile, sapele, and however many other species and then lump them in as 'african mahogany'. My wholesaler carries sapele, utile, and african mahogany. From my previous experience i outlined, i dont?see myself ever buying another stick of african mahogany.?
Patrick
I've generally had pretty good luck with Sapele, but I've only ever used quarter sawn, kiln dried stock. As Joe Calhoon suggests, slow initial milling helps, and there will inevitably be a squirrely board in there, so I try to leave a little extra when I'm rough milling for blanks.?
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Jason, I've asked a local yard about sourcing Utile, he said he'd keep me to the loop if an opportunity presents itself.?
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Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
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Jason,
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???????? Since the price of lumber has gone up over the years, I'm now making all doors with 1/8" veneers. Of course, it's a ton more work, but I also feel good about using less hardwoods. I also don't make slab tables, as I feel it's a huge waste of rare hardwoods. But that's just me and how I personally feel.? I hope you have good luck with your project.? Tom Ruth
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Hi Tom and reply to your comment on slab tables here’s my thoughts on it. I have 22 inch wide. by 4 inch thick by 8 foot long Cuban mahogany. I’m not gonna do anything with him but build some base for him and leave them just like they are except they’ll probably do a hit miss on the on the surface. I figure leave them like that and they have a little bit of value for my sweetheart when I croak she can either use them as a table or sell them probably buy a new car they’re about I’ve had them for 30 years. Designing and building for 50 years
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On Feb 22, 2025, at 10:21?AM, tomruth via groups.io <tomruth@...> wrote:
? Jason,
?
???????? Since the price of lumber has gone up over the years, I'm now making all doors with 1/8" veneers. Of course, it's a ton more work, but I also feel good about using less hardwoods. I also don't make slab tables, as I feel it's a huge waste of rare hardwoods. But that's just me and how I personally feel.? I hope you have good luck with your project.? Tom Ruth
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Another cause of internal stress in a single piece of wood is improper drying.? ?If a kiln is run too hot, the wood can case harden and cause internal stresses.? If the conditioning phase is too short, the stresses will not be relieved.? If charge samples are not run, the problem will not be discovered until resawn, probably by the end user.??
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Has this ever happened: the boss yells at the kiln operator "hurry up and get that load dried".? The kiln operator naturally turns up the heat then pulls the load out as soon as it reaches the target moisture content.? Who needs another 18 hours of conditioning. Hide the samples and report your miracle drying prowess to the boss.
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Again its a matter of degrees.? Wood will warp, twist, and move and never stop.? How much is acceptable and PREVENTABLE.? Talk to your supplier.
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Jason ? This is the system I designed and designed the tooling for door dividers 4 inch by inch and three-quarter with a car inside. The rails are solid styles are laminated. Mac,,?  Designing and building for 50 years
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On Feb 22, 2025, at 11:32?AM, Jonathan Smith via groups.io <jonathan.smith@...> wrote:
? Another cause of internal stress in a single piece of wood is improper drying.? ?If a kiln is run too hot, the wood can case harden and cause internal stresses.? If the conditioning phase is too short, the stresses will not be relieved.? If charge samples are not run, the problem will not be discovered until resawn, probably by the end user.??
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<samples.png> <examples.png> ?
Has this ever happened: the boss yells at the kiln operator "hurry up and get that load dried".? The kiln operator naturally turns up the heat then pulls the load out as soon as it reaches the target moisture content.? Who needs another 18 hours of conditioning. Hide the samples and report your miracle drying prowess to the boss.
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Again its a matter of degrees.? Wood will warp, twist, and move and never stop.? How much is acceptable and PREVENTABLE.? Talk to your supplier.
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Sapele often does this. I have worked with this tree many times and have witnessed some of the problems you have experienced. I can even say that one time the tree exploded while I was sawing it. Yes, it really exploded. I have also used it a few times in carving and strange cracks appeared in the first month of carving. (My starting humidity was 11%) Sapele seems to be an unstable element. I agree with the other friends about Sipo.
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Burak 骋ü谤别谤
Türkiye (owner Ad 951-K740S-FB710)
gurerwoodcraft/Instagram?
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Case hardening due to improper drying is a possibility, but I purchased quite a number of planks from a single lot of 16/4 Sapele. It seems some of them are problematic, even if they are perfectly radially sawn, and most others are “not bad” to “no problems”.
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I’ve also had problems with 4/4, 5/4, and 8/4 stock btw.
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I have tried “going slow” on the milling, and stickering the newly sawn boards onto a flat surface and clamping them down for a few days to settle in. That hasn’t worked for me either. Seems if a plank wants to twist, it’ll do it no matter what I do to avoid it. So now I aim to find out as quickly as possible.
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I’ve learned to simply live with the problem and be ready to mill extra stock as the need arises. I’ve also given up making door stiles w/ solid Sapele. I always veneer those, and often use solid stock ?for the rest of the door.
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The backup plan of sawing the teisty planks into veneer if need be is a good one IMO.
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Mac, can you post a pic of that Cuban Mahogany plank? Wow! It belongs in a WW’ing museum.
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Hi Darrell,?
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I forgot to address your mention of Sapele sometimes being referred to as "African mahogany". This may be a regional vernacular, as I've always associated "African mahogany" with Khaya. Khaya is indeed usually lighter in color than Sapele, has less resistance to rot, and, in my experience, tends to move more than Sapele. Is it possible some Khaya got mixed in with your Sapele??
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As JB points out, some boards just want to twist, regardless of species. When I run into a board that seems to want to keep moving, I'll set it aside for other purposes, since I don't want to run the risk of that board continuing to move over time. Cheaper to just buy extra material than to build a whole new door/project.?
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While it can be frustrating when our materials move, I do appreciate the challenge and skill necessary to anticipate and work with these natural materials. Besides, if it were easy, everybody would be doing it, right?? :-)?
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
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Jonathan Smith
Jason Holtz
Tom Gensmer
骋ü谤别谤