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The internal hose in my slider has disintegrated.? Felder is out of stock both here and in Austria.? They forecast an 8–10 week delivery delay for a replacement.? Further, some years ago, David Best recommended against using Felder hose and favored Air Handling's AH Plus product.? Air Handling no longer has that product designation but offers a few abrasion-resistant choices at a significant up charge.??
So now, my questions:? 1.? Can I substitute a slightly larger 4" hose for the 100mm original?? 2.? Is there a method to fit a 4" hose (internal circumference 12.42") onto the rectangular chute that measures 4.75" x 1.75" (outside dimension 13")?? 3.? How can I form the reinforcement wire in the hose from a circle to a rectangle, just bend the wire?? 4. How does one install this stuff one-handed via the minuscule access opening?? 5.? Are there any outside the box solutions like (a) commissioning a metal or 3-D printed rectangle-to-round transition or (b) sealing all of cabinet openings (except for the blade assembly) and evacuating the whole plenum with a 6" vacuum line?
It has already occurred to me that a few inexpensive changes at the design and manufacturing end would have minimized this annoying problem, but I don't have a time machine so that is out.? Any other suggestions will be gratefully appreciated.?
Thanks.
Jim Fleming
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Hi Jim, A few months ago I started working with someone on this very issue. He sent me the diagram of the part he wanted printed and when I asked for dimensions, he stopped responding. It’s my understanding that the hose needs to be formed onto the port. I was going to print a rectangular port adapter that transitioned to a 4” hose part.?
I’m still willing to do that if I can find a willing participant. I don’t have this machine so I’m shooting in the dark here, but willing to help. It’s the part circled in yellow, not red. Rectangle to circle.
Bill Bélanger 
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On Mar 26, 2024, at 13:10, Jim Fleming <jameshfleming@...> wrote:
The internal hose in my slider has disintegrated.? Felder is out of stock both here and in Austria.? They forecast an 8–10 week delivery delay for a replacement.? Further, some years ago, David Best recommended against using Felder hose and favored Air Handling's AH Plus product.? Air Handling no longer has that product designation but offers a few abrasion-resistant choices at a significant up charge.??
So now, my questions:? 1.? Can I substitute a slightly larger 4" hose for the 100mm original?? 2.? Is there a method to fit a 4" hose (internal circumference 12.42") onto the rectangular chute that measures 4.75" x 1.75" (outside dimension 13")?? 3.? How can I form the reinforcement wire in the hose from a circle to a rectangle, just bend the wire?? 4. How does one install this stuff one-handed via the minuscule access opening?? 5.? Are there any outside the box solutions like (a) commissioning a metal or 3-D printed rectangle-to-round transition or (b) sealing all of cabinet openings (except for the blade assembly) and evacuating the whole plenum with a 6" vacuum line?
It has already occurred to me that a few inexpensive changes at the design and manufacturing end would have minimized this annoying problem, but I don't have a time machine so that is out.? Any other suggestions will be gratefully appreciated.?
Thanks.
Jim Fleming
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Jim,
Yes, you can use 4” instead of 100mm. ?Focus on finding hose with good flexibility since the tilting trunion will mash and stretch whatever hose you use. ?It also helps if you get a hose with a smooth interior wall. ?Polyurethane will be a much better choice than PVC. ?The Felder HD stuff is a good choice, but if they don’t have stock, then I would focus on another supplier. ?I have no experience with this hose or company, but they do sell a polyurethane 100mm version by the meter: ?
If you use 4”, you will discover that you have two transitions to make inside the machine: one on the saw trunion, the other where the hose attaches to the chassis extractor port.?
You will need a custom adapter on the trunion end - probably either way (100mm or 4”). ?Nordfab, and I’m sure some others will make you a custom metal adapter. ?But I recommend you work with Bill Belanger to design and get a 3D printed part fabricated.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
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On Mar 26, 2024, at 1:10?PM, Jim Fleming <jameshfleming@...> wrote:
The internal hose in my slider has disintegrated.? Felder is out of stock both here and in Austria.? They forecast an 8–10 week delivery delay for a replacement.? Further, some years ago, David Best recommended against using Felder hose and favored Air Handling's AH Plus product.? Air Handling no longer has that product designation but offers a few abrasion-resistant choices at a significant up charge.??
So now, my questions:? 1.? Can I substitute a slightly larger 4" hose for the 100mm original?? 2.? Is there a method to fit a 4" hose (internal circumference 12.42") onto the rectangular chute that measures 4.75" x 1.75" (outside dimension 13")?? 3.? How can I form the reinforcement wire in the hose from a circle to a rectangle, just bend the wire?? 4. How does one install this stuff one-handed via the minuscule access opening?? 5.? Are there any outside the box solutions like (a) commissioning a metal or 3-D printed rectangle-to-round transition or (b) sealing all of cabinet openings (except for the blade assembly) and evacuating the whole plenum with a 6" vacuum line?
It has already occurred to me that a few inexpensive changes at the design and manufacturing end would have minimized this annoying problem, but I don't have a time machine so that is out.? Any other suggestions will be gratefully appreciated.?
Thanks.
Jim Fleming
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I too have encountered this problem. I have a Hammer C3-31 (same saw as the K3). My original hose, after about 4 - 5 years of very light use completely broke down.? I purchased a new 4” hose and formed it to fit. It was very hard to do, and in my opinion, a very poor solution.? I can take and send some pictures if you think it will help.? I think there may be at least one (significant ?) problem with making a rectangular to round “fitting” for this connection. When the saw blade is tilted to 45 degrees, this R to R fitting will run into the side wall of the housing or enclosure. This may be why Felder/Hammer uses a flexible hose. It is a cheap and poorly designed solution that breaks down rather quickly. More to come…maybe?
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On Mar 26, 2024, at 5:13?PM, David P. Best <dbestworkshop@...> wrote:
? Jim,
Yes, you can use 4” instead of 100mm. ?Focus on finding hose with good flexibility since the tilting trunion will mash and stretch whatever hose you use. ?It also helps if you get a hose with a smooth interior wall. ?Polyurethane will be a much better choice than PVC. ?The Felder HD stuff is a good choice, but if they don’t have stock, then I would focus on another supplier. ?I have no experience with this hose or company, but they do sell a polyurethane 100mm version by the meter: ?
If you use 4”, you will discover that you have two transitions to make inside the machine: one on the saw trunion, the other where the hose attaches to the chassis extractor port.?
You will need a custom adapter on the trunion end - probably either way (100mm or 4”). ?Nordfab, and I’m sure some others will make you a custom metal adapter. ?But I recommend you work with Bill Belanger to design and get a 3D printed part fabricated.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
On Mar 26, 2024, at 1:10?PM, Jim Fleming <jameshfleming@...> wrote:
The internal hose in my slider has disintegrated.? Felder is out of stock both here and in Austria.? They forecast an 8–10 week delivery delay for a replacement.? Further, some years ago, David Best recommended against using Felder hose and favored Air Handling's AH Plus product.? Air Handling no longer has that product designation but offers a few abrasion-resistant choices at a significant up charge.??
So now, my questions:? 1.? Can I substitute a slightly larger 4" hose for the 100mm original?? 2.? Is there a method to fit a 4" hose (internal circumference 12.42") onto the rectangular chute that measures 4.75" x 1.75" (outside dimension 13")?? 3.? How can I form the reinforcement wire in the hose from a circle to a rectangle, just bend the wire?? 4. How does one install this stuff one-handed via the minuscule access opening?? 5.? Are there any outside the box solutions like (a) commissioning a metal or 3-D printed rectangle-to-round transition or (b) sealing all of cabinet openings (except for the blade assembly) and evacuating the whole plenum with a 6" vacuum line?
It has already occurred to me that a few inexpensive changes at the design and manufacturing end would have minimized this annoying problem, but I don't have a time machine so that is out.? Any other suggestions will be gratefully appreciated.?
Thanks.
Jim Fleming
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I made an adaptor to fit onto the original outlet of the blade surround out of 3mm mdf, it took several iterations due to allowing for blade tilt but it has been there for a few years and given no problems. I know of one saw in which the owner (a sheet metal worker) built a metal duct and did away the hose altogether. I don't see why MDF could not be used to do the same thing if someone was keen enough. I would love to see how the factory gets the hose onto the blade surround because it is not an easy task.??
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So hammer does not come with a transition from rectangular to round like Felder?
My 2002 KF has a nice plastic transition that comes on/off really easy to remove thin slivers that get in the chute.
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On Mar 26, 2024, at 8:26?PM, chrjparks@... wrote: ?I made an adaptor to fit onto the original outlet of the blade surround out of 3mm mdf, it took several iterations due to allowing for blade tilt but it has been there for a few years and given no problems. I know of one saw in which the owner (a sheet metal worker) built a metal duct and did away the hose altogether. I don't see why MDF could not be used to do the same thing if someone was keen enough. I would love to see how the factory gets the hose onto the blade surround because it is not an easy task.??
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Someone had me make a 100mm x 35mm adapter to an 80mm hose. Maybe this is it?
Bill Belanger
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On Mar 26, 2024, at 18:37, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? So hammer does not come with a transition from rectangular to round like Felder?
My 2002 KF has a nice plastic transition that comes on/off really easy to remove thin slivers that get in the chute.
On Mar 26, 2024, at 8:26?PM, chrjparks@... wrote:
?I made an adaptor to fit onto the original outlet of the blade surround out of 3mm mdf, it took several iterations due to allowing for blade tilt but it has been there for a few years and given no problems. I know of one saw in which the owner (a sheet metal worker) built a metal duct and did away the hose altogether. I don't see why MDF could not be used to do the same thing if someone was keen enough. I would love to see how the factory gets the hose onto the blade surround because it is not an easy task.??
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Hi Bill:
?
I don’t have a Hammer or Felder, just the Kappa 400, but my understanding is that they all suffer from the same/similar problem in that when the blade is tilted to 45 degrees, there is next to no space inside
the machine chassis to accommodate a flex hose, let alone a plastic transition.
?
I was so frustrated with my 120mm connection when I first got the Kappa that I wanted to modify the hell out of it and get some decent extraction working. But the rectangular port on the Kappa is actually
cast into the motor/arbor/assembly such that it is impossible (IMO) to do much modifying.
?
I have two ideas for you to consider, if you ever get the dimensions from a Hammer/Felder owner:
?
- The transition from rectangular to round needs to have a 30-45 degree bend built in so that there is enough space for a mounted transition when the blade
is tilted. If you’re looking straight down at the arbour (from the sliding table side), the bend would be away from the slider (going under the motor/arbor/assembly) and also towards the back of the machine.
- The above idea may not even work – there really is “no room” inside my Kappa and the flex hose hits hard into the machine chassis when the blade is tilted.
So an alternative idea is not to make a traditional transition at all, but a 30mm long “collar” which has a round outside (say 100mm or even 120mm) but a rectangular inside. This sort of printed piece could be glued onto the metal rectangle (whether sheet
metal or cast iron) and then the flex could be fitted over the top and clamped in the usual way with a hose clamp. It would not be a “transition” at all, but at least an adaptor that allowed flex to be installed and replaced more easily.
?
Anyway, just some brainstorming ideas for you.
?
Lucky
?
Someone had me make a 100mm x 35mm adapter to an 80mm hose.
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On Mar 26, 2024, at 18:37, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
?
So hammer does not come with a transition from rectangular to round like Felder?
My 2002 KF has a nice plastic transition that comes on/off really easy to remove thin slivers that get in the chute.
?
On Mar 26, 2024, at 8:26?PM, chrjparks@... wrote:
?I made an adaptor to fit onto the original outlet of the blade surround out of 3mm mdf, it took several iterations due to allowing for
blade tilt but it has been there for a few years and given no problems. I know of one saw in which the owner (a sheet metal worker) built a metal duct and did away the hose altogether. I don't see why MDF could not be used to do the same thing if someone was
keen enough. I would love to see how the factory gets the hose onto the blade surround because it is not an easy task.??
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This is what the KF came with and is still there after 22 yrs. Item #25
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On Mar 26, 2024, at 10:15?PM, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote: ?
Hi Bill:
?
I don’t have a Hammer or Felder, just the Kappa 400, but my understanding is that they all suffer from the same/similar problem in that when the blade is tilted to 45 degrees, there is next to no space inside
the machine chassis to accommodate a flex hose, let alone a plastic transition.
?
I was so frustrated with my 120mm connection when I first got the Kappa that I wanted to modify the hell out of it and get some decent extraction working. But the rectangular port on the Kappa is actually
cast into the motor/arbor/assembly such that it is impossible (IMO) to do much modifying.
?
I have two ideas for you to consider, if you ever get the dimensions from a Hammer/Felder owner:
?
- The transition from rectangular to round needs to have a 30-45 degree bend built in so that there is enough space for a mounted transition when the blade
is tilted. If you’re looking straight down at the arbour (from the sliding table side), the bend would be away from the slider (going under the motor/arbor/assembly) and also towards the back of the machine.
- The above idea may not even work – there really is “no room” inside my Kappa and the flex hose hits hard into the machine chassis when the blade is tilted.
So an alternative idea is not to make a traditional transition at all, but a 30mm long “collar” which has a round outside (say 100mm or even 120mm) but a rectangular inside. This sort of printed piece could be glued onto the metal rectangle (whether sheet
metal or cast iron) and then the flex could be fitted over the top and clamped in the usual way with a hose clamp. It would not be a “transition” at all, but at least an adaptor that allowed flex to be installed and replaced more easily.
?
Anyway, just some brainstorming ideas for you.
?
Lucky
?
Someone had me make a 100mm x 35mm adapter to an 80mm hose.
<image0.png>
On Mar 26, 2024, at 18:37, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
?
So hammer does not come with a transition from rectangular to round like Felder?
My 2002 KF has a nice plastic transition that comes on/off really easy to remove thin slivers that get in the chute.
?
On Mar 26, 2024, at 8:26?PM, chrjparks@... wrote:
?I made an adaptor to fit onto the original outlet of the blade surround out of 3mm mdf, it took several iterations due to allowing for
blade tilt but it has been there for a few years and given no problems. I know of one saw in which the owner (a sheet metal worker) built a metal duct and did away the hose altogether. I don't see why MDF could not be used to do the same thing if someone was
keen enough. I would love to see how the factory gets the hose onto the blade surround because it is not an easy task.??
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Hi Bill,
This looks like what goes on the overhead guard.
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On Mar 26, 2024, at 9:50?PM, Bill Belanger <bllblngr@...> wrote: ? Someone had me make a 100mm x 35mm adapter to an 80mm hose. Maybe this is it?
Bill Belanger <image0.png> On Mar 26, 2024, at 18:37, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? So hammer does not come with a transition from rectangular to round like Felder?
My 2002 KF has a nice plastic transition that comes on/off really easy to remove thin slivers that get in the chute.
On Mar 26, 2024, at 8:26?PM, chrjparks@... wrote:
?I made an adaptor to fit onto the original outlet of the blade surround out of 3mm mdf, it took several iterations due to allowing for blade tilt but it has been there for a few years and given no problems. I know of one saw in which the owner (a sheet metal worker) built a metal duct and did away the hose altogether. I don't see why MDF could not be used to do the same thing if someone was keen enough. I would love to see how the factory gets the hose onto the blade surround because it is not an easy task.??
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David and Bill, thanks for your responses.? David, I get it that urethane is superior.? Air Handling has it but their shipping quote exceeds the price of the material which always bugs me.? And Zoic appears to be in the UK.? Other suppliers seem to be out of stock. David, I am impressed that you unearthed, no kidding, a paleontology supplier to respond to my questions.??
I will talk to Felder again tomorrow about whether their replacement hose is formed up for the port and what hose choices they have in stock.
As for either a metal or 3d printed port transition goes, I foresee difficulties in attaching the transition to the port because there is only about 1/2" unobstructed at the bottom of the port.? See the enclosed sketch and photo.? Also, the port tapers downward which make harder to attach the transition.? I think those challenges suggest that Felder tacked on the tabs to brace their hose clamp against slippage.?
The existing transition at the exhaust end of the hose is tapered and accepted the original 100mm as well as a leftover piece of 4" that I tried.
Bill, I know almost nothing about 3d printing so let me know what is doable and also if I need to clarify or confirm the dimensions.? It is tough to do precise measurements with all the obstructions.
I don't think the transition needs to be anything like airtight because there is a wide open blade slot down the left side of the port.? However, as David said, the rotation of the trunnion will stress the connection so that will need to be pretty solid.
Thanks again to both.
Jim
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Here are the sketch and photo.
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Hey Lucky, I think this is what you’re describing, but I wonder if it will fit in that tight space? Bill Belanger
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On Mar 26, 2024, at 20:00, Jim Fleming <jameshfleming@...> wrote:
Here are the sketch and photo.
<20240326_195133.jpg><20240326_182528.jpg>
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This is the good stuff from Felder. ?It is not as flexible as the OEM stuff that comes on the machine and disintegrates in 2 years and thus is more challenging to work with in tight quarters, ?but I was able to refit my K975 with it. ? It was a struggle - the coiled wire is stiff so I would not try to maneuver this onto a rectangular or housing. ?Felder eShop says it’s in stock. ?If you don’t like unexpected high shipping costs, you might want to take a Valium before you look at post-facto invoice from Felder.
 David Best - via mobile phone?
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On Mar 26, 2024, at 7:57?PM, Jim Fleming <jameshfleming@...> wrote:
? David and Bill, thanks for your responses.? David, I get it that urethane is superior.? Air Handling has it but their shipping quote exceeds the price of the material which always bugs me.? And Zoic appears to be in the UK.? Other suppliers seem to be out of stock. David, I am impressed that you unearthed, no kidding, a paleontology supplier to respond to my questions.??
I will talk to Felder again tomorrow about whether their replacement hose is formed up for the port and what hose choices they have in stock.
As for either a metal or 3d printed port transition goes, I foresee difficulties in attaching the transition to the port because there is only about 1/2" unobstructed at the bottom of the port.? See the enclosed sketch and photo.? Also, the port tapers downward which make harder to attach the transition.? I think those challenges suggest that Felder tacked on the tabs to brace their hose clamp against slippage.?
The existing transition at the exhaust end of the hose is tapered and accepted the original 100mm as well as a leftover piece of 4" that I tried.
Bill, I know almost nothing about 3d printing so let me know what is doable and also if I need to clarify or confirm the dimensions.? It is tough to do precise measurements with all the obstructions.
I don't think the transition needs to be anything like airtight because there is a wide open blade slot down the left side of the port.? However, as David said, the rotation of the trunnion will stress the connection so that will need to be pretty solid.
Thanks again to both.
Jim
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To all - in this really interesting thread. Imran - your schematic, # 25, is exactly the kind of transition I was thinking of. Not sure if that would clear the side wall ( when saw blade is tilted to 45) in the Hammer K3 and C3-31 machines, but it looks promising.? Thanks for sharing. I have been wondering if a pivoting rectangular to round adapter could be configured? So that as the saw blade is tilted to 45 degrees, the adapter swings down so the round connector for the hose is always pointing downward.
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On Mar 26, 2024, at 10:46?PM, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? Hi Bill,
This looks like what goes on the overhead guard.
On Mar 26, 2024, at 9:50?PM, Bill Belanger <bllblngr@...> wrote:
? Someone had me make a 100mm x 35mm adapter to an 80mm hose. Maybe this is it?
Bill Belanger <image0.png> On Mar 26, 2024, at 18:37, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? So hammer does not come with a transition from rectangular to round like Felder?
My 2002 KF has a nice plastic transition that comes on/off really easy to remove thin slivers that get in the chute.
On Mar 26, 2024, at 8:26?PM, chrjparks@... wrote:
?I made an adaptor to fit onto the original outlet of the blade surround out of 3mm mdf, it took several iterations due to allowing for blade tilt but it has been there for a few years and given no problems. I know of one saw in which the owner (a sheet metal worker) built a metal duct and did away the hose altogether. I don't see why MDF could not be used to do the same thing if someone was keen enough. I would love to see how the factory gets the hose onto the blade surround because it is not an easy task.??
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Hi Chris,
I can measure the height/depth of the rectangular top. I believe it was mentioned that hammer only has 1/2” to accept such transition. 1/2” should allow for it to be held with couple of bolts and knobs on the outside.
One would need to measure the clearance at 45 deg (space between bottom of chute and machine chassis). If that forces a restricted airway, perhaps the transition can be flared to improve airflow. Assuming there is space to allow such flare.
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On Mar 27, 2024, at 9:45?AM, Christopher Rozycki <croz1950@...> wrote: ? To all - in this really interesting thread. Imran - your schematic, # 25, is exactly the kind of transition I was thinking of. Not sure if that would clear the side wall ( when saw blade is tilted to 45) in the Hammer K3 and C3-31 machines, but it looks promising.? Thanks for sharing. I have been wondering if a pivoting rectangular to round adapter could be configured? So that as the saw blade is tilted to 45 degrees, the adapter swings down so the round connector for the hose is always pointing downward. Chris Rozycki? On Mar 26, 2024, at 10:46?PM, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? Hi Bill,
This looks like what goes on the overhead guard.
On Mar 26, 2024, at 9:50?PM, Bill Belanger <bllblngr@...> wrote:
? Someone had me make a 100mm x 35mm adapter to an 80mm hose. Maybe this is it?
Bill Belanger <image0.png> On Mar 26, 2024, at 18:37, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? So hammer does not come with a transition from rectangular to round like Felder?
My 2002 KF has a nice plastic transition that comes on/off really easy to remove thin slivers that get in the chute.
On Mar 26, 2024, at 8:26?PM, chrjparks@... wrote:
?I made an adaptor to fit onto the original outlet of the blade surround out of 3mm mdf, it took several iterations due to allowing for blade tilt but it has been there for a few years and given no problems. I know of one saw in which the owner (a sheet metal worker) built a metal duct and did away the hose altogether. I don't see why MDF could not be used to do the same thing if someone was keen enough. I would love to see how the factory gets the hose onto the blade surround because it is not an easy task.??
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This is something I will print for my K3 in the next couple of weeks. I will let you know how it works out.
Neureiter shop seems to have flex in stock.?
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If you do print it and it does work please let me know. I would be interested in purchasing one for my Hammer C3-31. Croz1950@... Chris Rozycki?
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On Mar 27, 2024, at 3:12?PM, infer66 via groups.io <infer66@...> wrote:
?This is something I will print for my K3 in the next couple of weeks. I will let you know how it works out.
Neureiter shop seems to have flex in stock.?
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On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 01:45 PM, Christopher Rozycki wrote:
Imran - your schematic, # 25, is exactly the kind of transition I was thinking of. Not sure if that would clear the side wall ( when saw blade is tilted to 45) in the Hammer K3 and C3-31 machines, but it looks promising.?
Thanks for sharing.
I have been wondering if a pivoting rectangular to round adapter could be configured? So that as the saw blade is tilted to 45 degrees, the adapter swings down so the round connector for the hose is always pointing downward.
I'd been thinking along similar lines. Option 1 being to adapt from rectangular to circular, with the port on the side (as per Imran's drawing), and then running the hose to a new port on the machine's side. Option 2 being an adapter with a pivoting section in the way that you describe. I suspect the problem with both would be more tendency clog, but option 1 gives lots of scope for a big "plenum", perhaps with a door for clearing it. In the short term I made an adapter out of scrap plywood and a section of plastic pipe that I softened and reshaped with a heat gun - it looks cr*p but has worked for quite a while, although it sometimes falls off on the rare times I have to go to 45 degrees. Dave (in the UK)
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I have had to recently replace my internal hose due to original disintegrating also, I was surprised to hear felder didnt have this kind of fitting like yours at the printables url you provided.? Thanks for this thread id very much like to try out that model on my saw. It was an absolute pain to try and adapt the 100mm hose around that rectangle, had to cut the wire in a couple areas for it to fit.
Ill get this model printed and also fit my zero clearance insert to see how that improves collection.
Thanks,
Nathan
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Jim Fleming
Bill Belanger
David P. Best
imran
David Luckensmeyer
Nathan D'Elboux