My profile 45z finally made its way to the port. Hoping to get it delivered in the next month. In preparation, I need to get a Phase Perfect wired up since this is my first three phase machine. I was planning to buy the 20HP enterprise unit. The shaper is 13.5HP, so I could probably get away with the 10HP or 15HP unit. I might add a wide belt some day or a 4 head molder to support the sawmill side of my hobby, so the extra capacity would be nice.

Questions I have:

Is buying direct from Phase Technologies the best way to go from a price/support perspective? Or are there dealers with better pricing/support?

Regarding wiring, to keep things simple at first, I was going to mount the PP right next to my 200A panel and feed it with 4ga and a 60A breaker. Then pull a direct line of 8ga to the shaper (60’) with a twist lock receptacle. I’m wondering what’s the easiest way to protect the output side. Would you have a 2’ run of 8ga to a single DIN rail 3 phase 40A breaker, then the 60’ run to the shaper? Or would you need to match the 4ga on the input side to the output side up to the 40A breaker, then 8ga post breaker? Any suggestions on a breaker/supplier I can get this from online? All advice welcome. Thanks.

I reached out to Phase Perfect a few weeks ago because I was considering making the jump to 3-phase.? Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like it's worth the overall cost and investment (due to how much effort is needed for a full permit type install).? One of the things was noise of the PP, which is actually considerable:



I spoke in depth with Phase Perfect service on the noise produced by different generations and models.? I found out that they have a “QT” option on their 10/20/30 HP Performance models.? This QT option adds another inductor to reduce the high frequency electrical buzz/noise and it is a $430 option.? If you are mounting this inside your shop, the QT option might be a good idea so that the PP noise is not as intrusive/offensive.

-Aaron

Ed,

If you want to email me I can walk you through my setup.

For the 10hp PP you need an 80 amp breaker, 15hp PP is a 125 amp breaker and the 20hp is 160 amp (all of this is in PP's manual).? I did a din rail setup for breakers for my machines.? It works.? In my shop I am building now I will do a 3ph sub panel.

I mounted the PP outside, so the noise is not a big deal in the shop.? I do agree that the noise would not be bearable for my ears if it were in the shop.? I would opt for the quiet version if mounting outside was not an option.

I have my profil 45z x-motion (10hp) connected to it and other machines too, including a 15hp J/P.

PK

I think the statement that you can "run a 15HP machine on a 10HP Phase Perfect" should be taken with a grain of salt.? In most cases, this is possible.? With the exception of a dust collector, most woodworking machines will likely not pull "Full Load Amps" when running.? My 4HP table saw only pulls 1100 watts when it's just spinning the blade.? If you are pushing through some 12/4 hardwood, the amperage will be significantly higher than 1100 watts and will likely reach the 3000 watt "full load amps".? The actual amount of current being pulled by a machine is dependent on the type of machine and how hard you are pushing it.

PK says he can start his 15HP L'Vincible jointer/planer.? I think it's mostly due to the star-delta starting mechanism that doesn't make the motor attempt to pull "full starting amps" during ramp up.? Other machines may have different reactions.? I think it's entirely possible that the 15HP machine could trip some overload monitor on the Phase Perfect if he tries to push through some 21" hardwood with a large 5mm cut.

I could be totally wrong here, but I would ask Phase Perfect support if you really want to be sure.

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This is one of the arguments for running a VFD per machine even if you have a 3-phase source. You can program the start ramp.

Aaron Inami

Thursday, July 20, 2023 11:25 AM

I think the statement that you can "run a 15HP machine on a 10HP Phase Perfect" should be taken with a grain of salt.? In most cases, this is possible.? With the exception of a dust collector, most woodworking machines will likely not pull "Full Load Amps" when running.? My 4HP table saw only pulls 1100 watts when it's just spinning the blade.? If you are pushing through some 12/4 hardwood, the amperage will be significantly higher than 1100 watts and will likely reach the 3000 watt "full load amps".? The actual amount of current being pulled by a machine is dependent on the type of machine and how hard you are pushing it.

PK says he can start his 15HP L'Vincible jointer/planer.? I think it's mostly due to the star-delta starting mechanism that doesn't make the motor attempt to pull "full starting amps" during ramp up.? Other machines may have different reactions.? I think it's entirely possible that the 15HP machine could trip some overload monitor on the Phase Perfect if he tries to push through some 21" hardwood with a large 5mm cut.

I could be totally wrong here, but I would ask Phase Perfect support if you really want to be sure.

I’m running a split to 3 phase VFD on my dust collector for that very reason. However, the Profil 45z needs a phase converter. Felder no longer offers a 240v vfd option on the spindle motor.

Aaron,

I do agree with much of what you stated.? My machines all have star-delta start.? I plan on wiring my new setup with larger wire to the Phase Perfect in case I do need to move up to a larger unit with a wide belt.

The graph below shows the capacity of the 10, 15 and 20hp PP units.? The 10hp PP can deliver 70 amps for 10 seconds and 50+ amps for 20 seconds.? The plate on my 15hp L'invincible shows a 33 amp load for 240v 3ph.

I do not run a 3ph dust collector, so that does not impact these electrical demands from the PP.

?

Here is the stated performance from Phase Perfect:



YMMV, And agreed -call PP? They are great!
PK

I spoke to a sales rep at PP today. Wasn’t very talkative, but really pushed the PT020 over the PTE020. Said they have zero problems with the PT vs PTE in motor starting.?

Did anyone here order the on off switch? I tend to work mostly on weekends and don’t want it drawing 80 watts around the clock. I was just going to kill the breaker feeding it each time, but figured the on off switch would do the same job and would save wear and tear on the breaker (which technically shouldn’t be used as a switch). Just wanted to make sure the internal switch actually stopped it from drawing any idle power before I add it on. Also planned to order the “quiet” QT option since this is in my basement shop.

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Ed,

?

A 20HP Phase Perfect may be overkill for your needs.??Paul provided the load handling curves earlier, but practical experience suggests to me that a 15HP unit will probably be more than sufficient unless you are planning on a huge WB in the future.??

?

I have the older model 10HP Phase Perfect?connected to the shop single-phases load center via a 70 Amp breaker and #6 THHN wire in MT conduit.??The wiring to the 3-phase equipment is all #8 THHN in EMT. ?I have a 10HP Kappa 400 xMotion saw, 10HP Profil 45 shaper, 5.5HP RL160 dust extractor, 13 HP Dual 51 J/P, 7.5HP widebelt sander. ?

?

The most demanding load is running the Dual 51, planning wide hardwoods at significant depths of cut, pushed to max feed rates.??My Dual 51 has the Tersa head, so I would expect the power demands are considerably higher than a spiral cutterblock, or even a larger tilt/turn cutterstack on the 13HP Profil 45.

?

In real-world experience with this setup, I have surfaced 18” wide cherry at 4mm depth of cut with the RL160 also going, and the Phase Perfect handles it just fine.??I could even run the Kappa 400 in parallel for modest cutting.??All this with the 10HP Phase Perfect.

?

My 3-phase shop wiring setup is shown below.??This is the 4^th?shop I have wired in this fashion.??I am not an electrician, but this type of setup has been 100 percent trouble free in all my shops.??As you can see, I didn’t not employ disconnects or breakers (other than the plugs) downstream from the Phase Perfect.??I'm sure there are lots of licensed electricians would love to take pot-shots at this setup, but this setup was done under permit and passed local building inspector in Portland OR, and San Rafael CA.

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I don’t know if this is relevant on my ?25 “ Okoma JP it only has a7.5 hp main cutterhead motor it has reduced voltage starter Same as my larger shaper , you turn the switch on 1/2 way when the big ass 5” ?cutterhead starts ramping up to 6000 rpm when it sounds good you turn switch all the way on for heavy loads I like this set up.

I have a 30 HP Phase Perfect that feeds several panels in the shop for my Felder RL 160 dust extractor, FB 710 bandsaw, AD 941 J/P, and 15 HP vacuum pump for my ShopSabre. I may add a wide belt to the shop at some point as well in future.


l.?

They sell a Qt version!? On the pt020? ?Good grief I would have loved to know that when I bought it. The buzz is so annoying. It does not cut through my machines with the music on but with just music it is torture. It does however get me to shut it off immediately so I guess that is a good thing. Otherwise I would let it run for a few hours more per day. I am going to see if I can add it after the fact.?

Taylor, yes they sell a quieter version. It’s a $430 option. The sales guy was all but useless. He never offered up the option and only confirmed it when I asked. If it weren’t for the search feature here, I’d never have known to ask. Did you happen to get any discounted pricing? Also, how do you turn it off? With a breaker or the optional on/off switch.

David, thanks for the detailed specs on the components you used. Seeing that you didn’t use a breaker anywhere on the output side makes me wonder if our local code would approve it as well. Do you have any photos to share of the mounted PP and possibly one of the distribution boxes? Sometimes seeing the finished job fills in the nuances that I may miss while planning. FYI, your diagram shows #4-6 wire, but your description says #6-8. I’m thinking 6-8 is correct?

The PT series only has a 10 and 20HP version now. So I’m going to have to think hard about what I realistically might add in the future. I have no doubts the 10HP would run the 45z shaper with ease.

I'm a bit confused about receptacle sizing. The 10hp PP says max output of 36A. Using 30 amp receptacles without a 30amp breaker between the load and the PP has potential for the receptacle (and wiring sized for 30A) to overheat and catch fire right? Since the PP can do 36A continuous out, and an 80A single phase breaker can feed that into the PP without tripping (even a 70A breaker can support continuous 32A if my math is correct).

Am I wrong about something here?
--

Larry Long Neck

Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood

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Ed...I'm curious what you meant by "...PT series only has a 10 and 20HP version now". Their website shows that they have PT Performance models (what I have but didn't use to be called Performance) from 7.5 HP up to 75 HP in their 230V models.

I ordered it with the lever to shut it off. I use it frequently and wouldn’t be without it. I also got the better surge protection, which oddly doesnt come installed and when I went to install it, using a torque wrench for the first time, I mistook ftlbs for inlbs and sheared the bastard off. They wanted me to pay another $350 at PP but I called the manufacturer and they took pity on me and sold it for just $90 which i believe is their cost.?

I ordered from PP directly. ?It was cheapest that way at the time which was about a year ago.

Given this is on a residential property, I could only increase my panel to 400 amps which is split 200 for the shop and 200 for the house (all electrical appliances). This limited me to the pt020, which basically limits me to my 25” grizzly widebelt with the DC running (nederman s1000p). Oddly the DC is overkill at my current shop (bought it when I had employees in an industrial warehouse) but I wouldnt downgrade it while upgrading a widebelt. As such I utilize the cnc and rotex combo with minimal disappointment. ?I don’t do plywood stuff that would require a larger widebelt.?

I have the 20 HP PP Enterprise. Sales rep did not tell me about the $430 quiet option. The unit does make an annoying noise. I ordered the auxiliary on/off switch, which is very convenient. The unit is silent and voltages on all three phases are cut when the switch is in the standby/off state, so there is no need to shut off the 125A breaker when the unit is not in use. The display on the PP remains active when the the switch is in the standby/off state. Annoying, the run time indicator keeps incrementing when the switch is off, so that the unit shows thousands of hours of "run time", when the actual on-state operating time is only a few hours. PP tech support said it is not possible to reconfigure the run time indicator to show only on-state operating time.? ?I was also told that no harm is done to the unit if it is cycled on and off with the auxiliary switch, so I only turn on the PP when I am actually using the Minimax TW55 ES shaper or FS52 ES J/P. This avoids much of the noise problem, since the PP noise is not as loud as the dust collection system.?

The PP also does not play well with some LED lighting (my LED shop lights are not affected). PP tech support provided information on a few possible ways to overcome this problem, but I have not bothered to go on that snipe hunt since the machines are only operated intermittently.?

Don

I also ordered the on/off switch and now only use the shut off switch which disconnects it from power because of the run time meter. Its good to hear that it doesnt affect it but I remember the day I left it on overnight and my horror when I saw it climb from 1.5 to 18 hours the next day. ?

I should ask if the terminal disconnect is bad for the PP, I sometimes use it instead of turning the machines off individually for convenience. Also on my martin tablesaw it coasts down instead of activating the brake which would make the brake last longer when I dont need it to stop quickly .?