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Hello Everyone,
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Long time lurker, first time poster.
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I have been fortunate enough to be asked by a friend to start and run a woodworking shop. He currently has an excavation, construction and real-estate company and has always wanted a professional woodworking shop in the mix. My job is to do everything from purchasing the tools to designing the remodel of an .??
The new shop’s focus will be cabinetry, furniture, millwork, and doors down the line. I have worked in professional cabinet shops and run my own shop for the past 15 years. Lately I have been building pieces for this new shop out of my much smaller shop.
Big shout-out to fellow member Tom Gensmer, who has been generously sharing his advice and insights on this project. When ordering clamps, I was also given great advice from Mac Campshure and have of course been reading anything from David Best I can find. Thanks to all of you for what you provide for this community.
I have anxiously decided to share my project with the group to get further input on machine layout and anything else that comes to mind. I have included my current idea for machine layout and some renderings of the remodel. Currently all the Felder equipment is sitting in California and awaiting delivery. I have already purchased most of the tools and will be using a Minimax sc 3c sliding table saw the owner already owns.
3 phase power was installed in late fall and last week they began working on heating and cooling for the shop. I started receiving quotes for windows and a new garage door and hope to have them ordered ASAP. Next, they will be installing a plywood floor and putting up for the finished interior walls. We are using 1 ?” and 3” XPS foam for our insulation. With any luck I will be able to begin commissioning the new machines in March.
While I've ordered a Felder RL 200 dust collector, I'm wondering if it's sufficient for the task at hand, considering potential future employees (1-2) and hopefully the addition of a wide belt sander. I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts on dust collection and insights into accommodating a wide belt sander in this space. It would be great if I could somehow replace the drum sander with 43" or 53" wide belt. If I choose to go with a different dust collector I have been looking at the Nederman S-1000, but am interested in other suggestions. My dust collection ducting has not yet been purchased but I am currently planning on going with .?
Additionally, there's a nearby 12' X 40' shop earmarked for my paint booth and storage for completed projects awaiting finish. Any advice on converting this space into an efficient spray shop would be immensely helpful.
?
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1)???
1. Plywood storage
2. Mobile Clamping Cart
3. Storage Benches/Display Cabinets
4. Nova Voyager Drill Press
5. Castle TSM-12 Pocket Hole Machine
6.?
7.?
8. DeWalt DW788 Scroll Saw
9.?Mobile Mechanics Cabinet (Rousseau?)
10.?
11. 48” X 96” Assembly Bench on Southworth Lift (#4,000)
12.?
13. Rangate RL300
14. Felder FS 900 KF Edge Sander
15. SuperMax 25-50 Drum Sander
16. Felder Profil 45 Z
17. Minimax sc 3c (To be upgraded)
18. Felder D 951Planer
19. SCMI Formula 440p Bandsaw
20. Felder A 951 L Jointer
21. Shaper Cutter Storage (Rousseau?)
22. Williams & Hussey Moulder
23. Solid Wood Storage (vertical)
24. Festool Kapex
25. Blum Minipress
26. Felder RL200 Dust Collector
27. Saylor-Beall VT-735-80-3
28. Storage Rack
29. Solvent Storage
30. Wadkin Bursgreen DM/V Mortiser (not shown)
I was originally going to purchase Lista cabinets for the shop but on Friday I found out they are 20 weeks out. Now I am looking at Rousseau and will call Vidmar to check availability. Any suggestions for a quality mechanics rolling cabinet and shaper cutter storage cabinet is appreciated.? ?
Looking forward to your constructive advice.
?
Best,
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John
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Looks like a fun shop build. ?I have a few immediate reactions:
- Forget the Drum sander idea. ?You will not be happy with it for any kind of production. ?Instead, invest in a genuine wide belt - even with a single head.
- If you do get a wide belt sander, you’re going to need a dust extractor that can handle fines better than an RL200 can. ?I’ll stand back and let others make suggestions on that topic.
- Look more closely at SCMI for your jointer selection. ?You’ll find the reasons detailed in my “Jointer Table Analysis” document on my web site. ?https://davidpbest.com/publications-and-videos#felder
- Looks like your plywood storage is vertical. ?If you plan on buying entire lifts of plywood, you’ll be put off by having to store it vertically.
- Vidmar and Rousseau cabinets are great, but very expensive. I’d recommend using them in situations where there is a lot of weight involved and a lot of open/close use. ?In other areas, I’d go with the HF cabinets.
- I grew up in pole barn territory - make sure you’re doing whatever is necessary to keep the RH under 50 percent, otherwise your equipment and especially the shaper tooling will suffer from rust.
- I think he will quickly outgrow the Minimax slider if he’s doing much production.
- What are you planning for edge banding - solid material clamp-on glue ups?
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
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On Jan 13, 2024, at 3:35?PM, JohnStephenson <jstephenson@...> wrote:
Hello Everyone, ? Long time lurker, first time poster. ? I have been fortunate enough to be asked by a friend to start and run a woodworking shop. He currently has an excavation, construction and real-estate company and has always wanted a professional woodworking shop in the mix. My job is to do everything from purchasing the tools to designing the remodel of an .??
The new shop’s focus will be cabinetry, furniture, millwork, and doors down the line. I have worked in professional cabinet shops and run my own shop for the past 15 years. Lately I have been building pieces for this new shop out of my much smaller shop.
Big shout-out to fellow member Tom Gensmer, who has been generously sharing his advice and insights on this project. When ordering clamps, I was also given great advice from Mac Campshure and have of course been reading anything from David Best I can find. Thanks to all of you for what you provide for this community.
I have anxiously decided to share my project with the group to get further input on machine layout and anything else that comes to mind. I have included my current idea for machine layout and some renderings of the remodel. Currently all the Felder equipment is sitting in California and awaiting delivery. I have already purchased most of the tools and will be using a Minimax sc 3c sliding table saw the owner already owns.
3 phase power was installed in late fall and last week they began working on heating and cooling for the shop. I started receiving quotes for windows and a new garage door and hope to have them ordered ASAP. Next, they will be installing a plywood floor and putting up for the finished interior walls. We are using 1 ?” and 3” XPS foam for our insulation. With any luck I will be able to begin commissioning the new machines in March.
While I've ordered a Felder RL 200 dust collector, I'm wondering if it's sufficient for the task at hand, considering potential future employees (1-2) and hopefully the addition of a wide belt sander. I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts on dust collection and insights into accommodating a wide belt sander in this space. It would be great if I could somehow replace the drum sander with 43" or 53" wide belt. If I choose to go with a different dust collector I have been looking at the Nederman S-1000, but am interested in other suggestions. My dust collection ducting has not yet been purchased but I am currently planning on going with .?
Additionally, there's a nearby 12' X 40' shop earmarked for my paint booth and storage for completed projects awaiting finish. Any advice on converting this space into an efficient spray shop would be immensely helpful. ?
?
1)???<Burma Shop.png>
1. Plywood storage
2. Mobile Clamping Cart
3. Storage Benches/Display Cabinets
4. Nova Voyager Drill Press
5. Castle TSM-12 Pocket Hole Machine
6.?
7.?
8. DeWalt DW788 Scroll Saw
9.?Mobile Mechanics Cabinet (Rousseau?)
10.?
11. 48” X 96” Assembly Bench on Southworth Lift (#4,000)
12.?
13. Rangate RL300
14. Felder FS 900 KF Edge Sander
15. SuperMax 25-50 Drum Sander
16. Felder Profil 45 Z
17. Minimax sc 3c (To be upgraded)
18. Felder D 951Planer
19. SCMI Formula 440p Bandsaw
20. Felder A 951 L Jointer
21. Shaper Cutter Storage (Rousseau?)
22. Williams & Hussey Moulder
23. Solid Wood Storage (vertical)
24. Festool Kapex
25. Blum Minipress
26. Felder RL200 Dust Collector
27. Saylor-Beall VT-735-80-3
28. Storage Rack
29. Solvent Storage
30. Wadkin Bursgreen DM/V Mortiser (not shown)
I was originally going to purchase Lista cabinets for the shop but on Friday I found out they are 20 weeks out. Now I am looking at Rousseau and will call Vidmar to check availability. Any suggestions for a quality mechanics rolling cabinet and shaper cutter storage cabinet is appreciated.? ?
<Whitepine Millworks.png>
<Shop - NW.png>
<Shop - SE.png>
Looking forward to your constructive advice. ? Best, ? John
<Shop Diagram.pdf>
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I will echo David's recommendation for Harbor Freight tool chests.? Their "U.S. General" line of chests are actually very nice.? I read a few days ago when David was joking about Husky boxes from Home Depot.? When I was shopping around for the tool chests, I visited several places.? When opening a drawer and pushing down on the drawer bottoms on the Husky stuff at HD, I literally heard a "tink".? This is the same "tink" that you hear when you squeeze a coke can and dent the sides.? Definitely some crappy level stuff.? All the chests at this price point advertise "120 lbs per drawer", but I really only trust the Harbor Freight stuff due to metal thickness and construction quality.
If you want heavier capacity, the Icon stuff from Harbor Freight is excellent.? All drawers support a minimum 265 lbs (with 500+ on the dual slide drawers).? The bottom of the double-slide 530lb drawers are re-inforced with sheet metal square beam cross members.?? Obviously, if you need 400lbs on every drawer, you can get Rousseau at about double the cost.
Harbor Freight actually has one green 36" Icon tool test on their scratch&dent page at a discount.? They also have several 36" stainless steel tops.? Be aware that the 36" model is discontinued so parts/support can be a challenge.
-Aaron
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I’ve not run a Felder RL200 but I’ve read several posts on FOG from people who have and I’ve read that design is less than ideal for a wide belt sander. ?Hopefully owners can chime in.?
I have four US General cabinets and they are nicer than HUSKY but the drawers with lots of mechanical tools don’t make me smile when I use them. ?I did take one and make a poor man’s Vidmar with all my hardware. Found a source online with various plastic boxes to fit in each drawer.?
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On Jan 13, 2024, at 8:55?PM, Aaron Inami <ainami@...> wrote:
?I will echo David's recommendation for Harbor Freight tool chests.? Their "U.S. General" line of chests are actually very nice.? I read a few days ago when David was joking about Husky boxes from Home Depot.? When I was shopping around for the tool chests, I visited several places.? When opening a drawer and pushing down on the drawer bottoms on the Husky stuff at HD, I literally heard a "tink".? This is the same "tink" that you hear when you squeeze a coke can and dent the sides.? Definitely some crappy level stuff.? All the chests at this price point advertise "120 lbs per drawer", but I really only trust the Harbor Freight stuff due to metal thickness and construction quality.
If you want heavier capacity, the Icon stuff from Harbor Freight is excellent.? All drawers support a minimum 265 lbs (with 500+ on the dual slide drawers).? The bottom of the double-slide 530lb drawers are re-inforced with sheet metal square beam cross members.?? Obviously, if you need 400lbs on every drawer, you can get Rousseau at about double the cost.
Harbor Freight actually has one green 36" Icon tool test on their scratch&dent page at a discount.? They also have several 36" stainless steel tops.? Be aware that the 36" model is discontinued so parts/support can be a challenge.
-Aaron
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Hi Eric? Thanks for kind words. My first thoughts are to provide racking for raw materials. Sticks and flats .? Think end products what kind of material flow rip first ? Cross cut first ? Mix ? Keep rough mill separate from finishing stuff .? Where does material come in is I stored in a tempered place , ideal conditions are 65 to 70 f 30 to 40 RH? Room to move carts how many?? Dust running down main line with branch drops.? Go through the steps than figure out what will take least steps and plant machines there .? Hard wire outside walls and standardize size of conduit I like 1”so stock lots of parts in one size . Design to be flexible what you think works today may fool you tomorrow. Nun all no 10 ?wire unless larger needed , Lots of led lights .? Figure how much time you will need and 4 to 5 times is more like what it will take.? Take advantage of uni strut, re purpose stiff so not to waste. Mac,,
Designing and building for 50 years
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On Jan 13, 2024, at 8:32?PM, Joe Jensen <joe@...> wrote:
? I’ve not run a Felder RL200 but I’ve read several posts on FOG from people who have and I’ve read that design is less than ideal for a wide belt sander. ?Hopefully owners can chime in.?
I have four US General cabinets and they are nicer than HUSKY but the drawers with lots of mechanical tools don’t make me smile when I use them. ?I did take one and make a poor man’s Vidmar with all my hardware. Found a source online with various plastic boxes to fit in each drawer.?
On Jan 13, 2024, at 8:55?PM, Aaron Inami <ainami@...> wrote:
?I will echo David's recommendation for Harbor Freight tool chests.? Their "U.S. General" line of chests are actually very nice.? I read a few days ago when David was joking about Husky boxes from Home Depot.? When I was shopping around for the tool chests, I visited several places.? When opening a drawer and pushing down on the drawer bottoms on the Husky stuff at HD, I literally heard a "tink".? This is the same "tink" that you hear when you squeeze a coke can and dent the sides.? Definitely some crappy level stuff.? All the chests at this price point advertise "120 lbs per drawer", but I really only trust the Harbor Freight stuff due to metal thickness and construction quality.
If you want heavier capacity, the Icon stuff from Harbor Freight is excellent.? All drawers support a minimum 265 lbs (with 500+ on the dual slide drawers).? The bottom of the double-slide 530lb drawers are re-inforced with sheet metal square beam cross members.?? Obviously, if you need 400lbs on every drawer, you can get Rousseau at about double the cost.
Harbor Freight actually has one green 36" Icon tool test on their scratch&dent page at a discount.? They also have several 36" stainless steel tops.? Be aware that the 36" model is discontinued so parts/support can be a challenge.
-Aaron
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Joe, are you referring to these Schaller boxes? ??
And now for the loud chorus about how they can be 3D printed at home for ? the cost. ? lol
David Best - via mobile phone?_._,_._,_
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Hey Joe!
I too have seen mixed reviews here and other forums for the RL200 on sanders. Hopefully someone here can chime in on a good alternative. I'm also curious if the RL 200 will have the power to keep up with multiple machines if necessary.?
Recently I read your post about Schaller Corp and have them bookmarked for a future purchase. Thanks for putting that out there.?
John?
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Thank you for the second vote on HF tool chests, I will take a look at them this week. In my current shop I have a Craftsman chest that drives me nuts with how cheaply built it is. I want to make sure and not repeat this in the new shop.?
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David, ? Did you just order one of their assortment packages? Thanks Dave Davies
Joe, are you referring to these Schaller boxes? ??
And now for the loud chorus about how they can be 3D printed at home for ? the cost. ? lol
David Best - via mobile phone?
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
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Thank you for the reply David. Also, thank you for all of the material you have published. I have been trying to read everything you have available. It has been a great resource.
I agree with you on the drum sander. I worry about having the space for a wide belt but I know I will not want to go to another shop and rent time on theirs when I could have my own.?
Unfortunately I am too late to change lanes on the jointer. I have already ordered the A 951 L and it was built and shipped to the US in December. Currently it is in California with my other machines waiting to be delivered.??
I will look into plywood storage, that is a good point.
Thank you for bringing up RH, this has me worried. Other than making sure we have as tightly sealed envelope as possible do you have any recommendations for humidity control??
You are absolutely right about the Minimax slider. Although this will not be a high production shop I hope to move to a larger saw as soon as I can.?
I will start with face frame cabinetry as this is what I know, but hope to try my hand at frameless as time goes by as they interest me. I will have to cross the edge banding bridge when I get there. I use Lamello Tensos or clamps and glue for my face frames.?
John
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Hey Mac,
I assume you are replying to me, John, and not Eric?
Thank you for your input.?
I have attempted to layout the shop to allow a minimum of 48" spacing for easy access and to allow material to be transported thought the shop on a Rangate RL300 cart.?
My wiring will all be routed through wall mounted conduit. Do you find 1" to be sufficient for most applications??
For lighting I am currently planning on using two rows of five . I am also planning on putting five of the existing Metal Halide fixtures in the eve. Lights will be switched on zones with dimmers. Additionally I will have seven 16" gooseneck style lights mounted to the walls.?
John?
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John- that's a great project! My quick takes:
1. Lots of light where you can, 200+ foot-candles where possible at the machines where you can overlap shadows esp operators standing over machines
2. I'm gonna say the drum sander is very handy and economic for calibration tasks with 80 or 100grit-? we use a supermax 19-38 and it's great for small parts and single boards, and delicate thicknessing a planar is too heavy handed for.? Not for finish sanding. BUT, it is not the same as a quality widebelt and at some point recommend an allowance for a decent widebelt setup that matches your particular application needs.?
3. Need a good parking place and laneways for pallet jacks, hand truck/dollies, and hopefully forklift/stickers
4. I'm sure doors are restricted by original build but the biggest you can muster for in/out of building. And enough clearance to load/unload trailers trucks and vans, even if they just back up to the door in bad weather.
5. Give yourself room to reconfigure everything again later!
Thank you for the reply David. Also, thank you for all of the material you have published. I have been trying to read everything you have available. It has been a great resource.
I agree with you on the drum sander. I worry about having the space for a wide belt but I know I will not want to go to another shop and rent time on theirs when I could have my own.?
Unfortunately I am too late to change lanes on the jointer. I have already ordered the A 951 L and it was built and shipped to the US in December. Currently it is in California with my other machines waiting to be delivered.??
I will look into plywood storage, that is a good point.
Thank you for bringing up RH, this has me worried. Other than making sure we have as tightly sealed envelope as possible do you have any recommendations for humidity control??
You are absolutely right about the Minimax slider. Although this will not be a high production shop I hope to move to a larger saw as soon as I can.?
I will start with face frame cabinetry as this is what I know, but hope to try my hand at frameless as time goes by as they interest me. I will have to cross the edge banding bridge when I get there. I use Lamello Tensos or clamps and glue for my face frames.?
John
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On Jan 13, 2024, at 10:08?PM, David P. Best <dbestworkshop@...> wrote:
? Joe, are you referring to these Schaller boxes? ??
And now for the loud chorus about how they can be 3D printed at home for ? the cost. ? lol
David Best - via mobile phone?
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Come on Dave, you know me better than that. ?I first measured every tool and made a 3D model of each one ?in Fusion 360, then exported all those dimensions into a spreadsheet and did a sort on length and width, ?A bit of math and I knew now many and what size boxes I needed and asked Schaller for a quote. ?We went back and forth three times, with me pointing out how I could 3D print them at home for ? the cost and we got to a final price. ?LOL
Seriously now, what I actually did was buy a couple of their assortment kits. ?I fitted everything I could and then ordered some additional stuff.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
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On Jan 13, 2024, at 7:24?PM, David Davies <myfinishingtouch@...> wrote:
David, ? Did you just order one of their assortment packages? Thanks Dave Davies Joe, are you referring to these Schaller boxes? ??
<image0.jpeg>
<image1.jpeg>
And now for the loud chorus about how they can be 3D printed at home for ? the cost. ? lol
David Best - via mobile phone?
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
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On Jan 13, 2024, at 10:08?PM, David P. Best <dbestworkshop@...> wrote:
? Joe, are you referring to these Schaller boxes? ??
And now for the loud chorus about how they can be 3D printed at home for ? the cost. ? lol
David Best - via mobile phone?
|
Thank you for the suggestions Brett.
1. Although my finish surfaces are far from complete I am currently working on my lighting design. You can see me current plan in my reply to Mac on this thread. I would appreciate your thoughts on my idea if you have the time. The lower cords of my trusses are at 12' 6".? The existing roof has t. I would like to reproduce this effect but in a more energy conscious manner. Those panels face South and would provide great natural light.?
2. The sander has been a hard part for me. I was decided on using the drum sander we have until I mentioned purchasing? to the owner the other day and he looked at me and said "well, its on your list isn't it". I'm not sure I could make room for 53" double head sander, but now it has me rethinking the drum sander and my dust collector choice. Unfortunately I know very little about wide belt sanders.?
3. I plan to let the pallet jack live in the storage area off the East end of the shop by the storage shelf. I will have to look at my layout and revisit my laneways.?
4. On the West end of the shop there will be a 9' 4" X 11' 8" tall garage door. I am planning on installing 36" wide doors in all other areas. The 36" doors will be new and have not yet been purchased or framed in.?
5. I am trying my best to keep things reconfigurable. I will get quick clamp ducting and use surface mount conduit for my electrical. Beyond this do you have any suggestions??
John?
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Suggestions: ?put the conduit on the outside of the finished wall. ?In two states I have lived in, putting conduit behind wallboard is against code. ?Plus it makes it a lot easier on adds/changes with it external. ?If you are burying it in the wall, I see no need for conduit. ?I have similar equipment to what you are planning, and used 1” conduit throughout, mixing 3P and 1P in the same conduits where code allows. ?Check your local code and insurance requirements. ?Also, put your outlet boxes at 50” AFF so that a sheet of plywood leaning against the wall doesn’t cover them. ?
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
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On Jan 13, 2024, at 7:39?PM, JohnStephenson <jstephenson@...> wrote:
Hey Mac,
I assume you are replying to me, John, and not Eric?
Thank you for your input.?
I have attempted to layout the shop to allow a minimum of 48" spacing for easy access and to allow material to be transported thought the shop on a Rangate RL300 cart.?
My wiring will all be routed through wall mounted conduit. Do you find 1" to be sufficient for most applications??
For lighting I am currently planning on using two rows of five . I am also planning on putting five of the existing Metal Halide fixtures in the eve. Lights will be switched on zones with dimmers. Additionally I will have seven 16" gooseneck style lights mounted to the walls.?
John?
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What are you going to sand? ?Finished frame/panel doors? ?Face frame assemblies? ?Veneered plywood? ?Rough-sawn PurpleHeart? ?And how often? ?Figuring this out will help you determine the WB sander requirement for “in the shop” versus “send out to someone else”. ?I have gotten by easily with a 16” open-side wide belt, sending out everything over that width. ?The overhead in dust extraction and WB equipment cost for a dual-head 43 or 52” WB is very high.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
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On Jan 13, 2024, at 8:10?PM, JohnStephenson <jstephenson@...> wrote:
Thank you for the suggestions Brett.
1. Although my finish surfaces are far from complete I am currently working on my lighting design. You can see me current plan in my reply to Mac on this thread. I would appreciate your thoughts on my idea if you have the time. The lower cords of my trusses are at 12' 6".? The existing roof has t. I would like to reproduce this effect but in a more energy conscious manner. Those panels face South and would provide great natural light.?
2. The sander has been a hard part for me. I was decided on using the drum sander we have until I mentioned purchasing? to the owner the other day and he looked at me and said "well, its on your list isn't it". I'm not sure I could make room for 53" double head sander, but now it has me rethinking the drum sander and my dust collector choice. Unfortunately I know very little about wide belt sanders.?
3. I plan to let the pallet jack live in the storage area off the East end of the shop by the storage shelf. I will have to look at my layout and revisit my laneways.?
4. On the West end of the shop there will be a 9' 4" X 11' 8" tall garage door. I am planning on installing 36" wide doors in all other areas. The 36" doors will be new and have not yet been purchased or framed in.?
5. I am trying my best to keep things reconfigurable. I will get quick clamp ducting and use surface mount conduit for my electrical. Beyond this do you have any suggestions??
John?
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David,
Yes, I will be mounting the conduit on the surface of the interior finish walls as you recommend, sorry for the confusion. That is good to know 1" conduit works. Do you use metal, PVC or another type of conduit?
That is a great suggestion on mounting height for electrical boxes.?
John?
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I would be sanding face frames, cabinet doors, entry doors, solid wood tops and other miscellaneous items for furniture. I have no intention of sanding rough lumber other than the occasional slab and can't imagine a situation where I would be sanding veneered plywood.?
John?
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JohnStephenson
David P. Best
Joe Jensen