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New Dual51 and Felder owner #dual51 #electrical #format4 #jointerplaner #welcome

 

Hi all,
?
Im Ty from Washington.?? We have a wood business in Whidbey Island, WA.? Last week I purchased a Format4 Dual 51 in CA and drove it home this weekend.? The machine was manufactured in 2014.? It has the helical head and 10HP configuration.? The trip was uneventful like I like.? Unload was tricky but smooth.? Ive got to buff out some light rust picked up from the trip.?
?
Now we are on to the electricity question.? Initial research indicates that single phase VHDs are out for both power and power sensitivity reasons.? Rotary seems to be the way to go (please confirm).? We have an unused 30HP idler motor still in crate, so would prefer to put that to work with the right phase converter setup.? Reading over some threads here seem to indicate that the internal motorized controls require tight electrical specifications.? Also would be interested to know if these machines have a soft start as that would be a data point for my phase converter decision. ?
?
?
Anyway, nice to meet you all and very excited to get this machine operational.
Cheers,
Ty
 

Hi Ty,? welcome to the FOG, I have a 2004 Dual 51, same hp as yours. I use 2 Kay Rotary PCs. 5hp and 7.5.? No issues with start and running. It does have soft start.?
Take care John


On Tue, Jan 21, 2025 at 8:35 AM, Ty
<ty@...> wrote:
Hi all,
?
Im Ty from Washington.?? We have a wood business in Whidbey Island, WA.? Last week I purchased a Format4 Dual 51 in CA and drove it home this weekend.? The machine was manufactured in 2014.? It has the helical head and 10HP configuration.? The trip was uneventful like I like.? Unload was tricky but smooth.? Ive got to buff out some light rust picked up from the trip.?
?
Now we are on to the electricity question.? Initial research indicates that single phase VHDs are out for both power and power sensitivity reasons.? Rotary seems to be the way to go (please confirm).? We have an unused 30HP idler motor still in crate, so would prefer to put that to work with the right phase converter setup.? Reading over some threads here seem to indicate that the internal motorized controls require tight electrical specifications.? Also would be interested to know if these machines have a soft start as that would be a data point for my phase converter decision. ?
?
?
Anyway, nice to meet you all and very excited to get this machine operational.
Cheers,
Ty
 

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Hi Ty,

Welcome and congratulations on the new old machine. I have one from 2011 with Tersa head. To your questions:

“single phase VHDs are out for both power and power sensitivity reasons”
I assume you meant VFD. VFD has a better regulated output (granted it produces electrical noise) than a RPC but it needs to be integrated into the machine where it is eventually directly connected to the motor. In simple terms, it does not work as a power plant. Load has to be connected to the VFD at power up you cannot switch the load.

RPC and Digital converters can be used as power plants. There are additional options for Phaseperfect (a digital converter) but not relevant here.

I am not sure about your intention with the motor on hand. An option, I imagine is to buy or build a static converter to start that 3 ph motor and use it as a RPC. I built a RPC and these are the basic components but then you need to add capacitors between phases to balance voltage and current. Former is easier than later.

In my case, I built and used a RPC with KF 700 successfully because both motors were identical. Keep in mind that you will not be able to dial in the RPC as good as a commercial one and it will only be dialed in for one machine under one condition, idling. Also, my older KF did not have any sensitive digital circuits. This however is not an electrical concern with a quality RPC that is connected properly rather a matter of convincing Felder that it is not a source of issue when one does arise. I rather not fight that battle.

We have gone thru this discussion here, it seems dozens of time. Most here will go with a digital converter like phaseperfect, especially for a new machine. I think that is wise to avoid issues with Felder.

?I have an older PP 10HP unit. When the fans are running?it is louder than my home built RPC and the frequency of noise is more annoying than the hum of a motor idling ?Many here complain about this so if you are sensitive to noise, PP can be purchased with proper cabinet for exterior installation.

Imran Malik
IAM Wood Creations

On Jan 21, 2025, at 8:35?AM, Ty via groups.io <ty@...> wrote:

single phase VHDs are out for both power and power sensitivity reasons
 

Hello Ty,
?
We switched from a Kay RPC to a Phase Perfect a couple years ago. ?Primarily because the RPC is 20 years old, and didn’t want to risk a failure at the wrong time. ??
While the PP makes some background noise, once the dust collection/equipment is fired up it’s a non issue. ?We do shut the PP down when doing assembly, and crank up the music….

Mike
M.E. Blake General Contractors?
 

Wow, what a warm welcome.? Thank you all for the quick and thoughtful responses.? I did intend to say 'VFD' earlier, must have been a late night typo.?
?
In researching the Phase Perfect, it appears I can get by with smaller breakers on the single phase side, which it good since we've maxxed out our panel.? Now that Im leaning their direction, the question is which unit?? I'd like to stay with the 'Simple' line for cost savings, but Im confused on comparing the ratings between my machine nameplate and the options PP offers.?
?
My machine nameplate shows -?
  • V 230.0
  • PH:3
  • HZ:60
  • A:24
  • KW: 7.35? S6-40%
The specs for the PTS are:
?
I'm deducing the machine is a 10HP from the 7.35KW rating.? I dont know what S6-40% means.?? From the PP specs the PTS005 appears to barely support the output (7.4kva), but the output amps are low - 18A when I require a max of 24.? Stepping up to the PTS007 appears to exceed both the KVA/KW requirements as well as the output amps.? However it still shows a rated HP of 7.5 which is confusing because that rating is lower than the stated output.
?
Simply put, will the PTS007 adequately power my Dual 51?? Are there any other reasons I should step up to the PP Enterprise line instead of the PP Simple?
?
Much appreciation for your expertise & input.
Ty
?
 

Hello TY,

There is a consensus that the digital phase converter is better than VFD.
For your question, you should "ignore" the HP rating and look at the amp usage, theoretically the PTS007 should be enough, the the simple line of PP doesn't work well with the electronic break of the machine.
Few months ago, someone bought the PTS007 and he had issues with that model (it enter error state and he needed to reboot the PP)
You should probably want to get the PTE010

P.S.
Can you please add your details to the signature so we will know who we are speaking with?
 

PP told me the Simple version would not support the electronics of my saw. I do not have the comprehension of the issues to know why. I did get the more expensive model, and truly the difference was small compared to the cost of the tool and the installation.?
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
 

On the PP you will need to go to an Enterprise (PTE) Model, as the Simple doesnt support the regenerative break (see - Model Comparison)

The nameplates are quite conservative, and the jump from a PTE007 to a PTE010 is pretty minor (~$600) and has quite a few happy users (myself included). If you search Phase Perfect here there are numerous discussions on sizing, efficency and the such.

Otherwise, welcome!

-Karl
 

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I don’t want to be a nuisance but I dislike misinformation. Felder machines that I am familiar with (Saw, Shaper, Jointer and Planer) do not have regenerative braking and would be surprised if any other Felder machines do.

The reason for simple model possibly not working may be due to this:

After writing above few months ago, I called PP and explained to tech how the Felder brake works. Best we could think of is that the capacitors on the enterprise model can supply the unbalanced current demand from 2 phases during braking without setting error code.

As a side note: In one of the Felder schematics I see a different brake board for 400V machine vs 230V machine. Interestingly the brake board for 400V system applies brake by injecting into all 3 phases. Kindof moot point as there is no 400V simple model, per the website.

Imran Malik
IAM Wood Creations

On Jan 21, 2025, at 5:11?PM, Karl via groups.io <bombamanwa@...> wrote:

?
On the PP you will need to go to an Enterprise (PTE) Model, as the Simple doesnt support the regenerative break (see - Model Comparison)

The nameplates are quite conservative, and the jump from a PTE007 to a PTE010 is pretty minor (~$600) and has quite a few happy users (myself included). If you search Phase Perfect here there are numerous discussions on sizing, efficency and the such.

Otherwise, welcome!

-Karl
 

Imran, so what is the break system they use for the 230V machines?
?
anyway, if we are back to the original discussion,
IMHO, the delta between the two models is low enough to go with the larger model and to save the trouble fighting with PP about comparability issues with the “simple” line if they’ll occur. ?The extra amperage (up to 36A) can provide better expandability. [I started with a 5.5kW saw and thought the PTS007 will be sufficient).
I am glad I went with the bigger PP that supports additional 3PH machines I added later on (shaper/BS/J-P)
 

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Netanel,

It is the simplest one, DC Injection. Here are common methods in order of increasing complexity:

DC Injection
Dynamic Braking
Regenerative Braking
Plugging

Imran Malik
IAM Wood Creations

On Jan 21, 2025, at 7:15?PM, netanel.belgazal via groups.io <netanel.belgazal@...> wrote:

?
Imran, so what is the break system they use for the 230V machines?
?
anyway, if we are back to the original discussion,
IMHO, the delta between the two models is low enough to go with the larger model and to save the trouble fighting with PP about comparability issues with the “simple” line if they’ll occur. ?The extra amperage (up to 36A) can provide better expandability. [I started with a 5.5kW saw and thought the PTS007 will be sufficient).
I am glad I went with the bigger PP that supports additional 3PH machines I added later on (shaper/BS/J-P)
 

Good to know Imran, I knew the Hammer series had a DC Break, but had never questioned the Felder series having a regenerative break.

That noted Ty, your first 3? tool is a bit of a gateway drug, leading into a world of other tooling that may require it, so still consider the upgrade.
-Karl
 

I've consumed the info from this thread and the other one @imranindiana referenced.? Clearly this path is well traveled and the best course is to the PP Enterprise.? Thanks to all for your input.? Im quickly discovering this equipment comes with its own form of expensive addiction.?
?
Ill update when we get things connected.?
?
Cheers!
 

Update -?
?
We were ready to pull the trigger on a Phase perfect and encountered an objection I was not expecting.? The hissing / buzzing sound coming from the unit is very objectionable to my wife's ears.? She's got hearing good enough to hear a fly fart, so I suspect from any room (and our workshop and home are connected) she would hear the buzzing.? The specific sound range is nail-on-a-chalkboard grating to her.? ?I checked with PP about the sound dampening kit, and they could off "no guarantees" it would solve my issue.??
?
That was a long-winded way of saying we are back to the rotary phase converter option.? I'm pretty concerned about the power quality and effects of that on this Felder machine.? I'd appreciate input from the group on the safest way to proceed.? ?I have an unused 30HP idler motor available.? Here are the top three options under consideration -?
?
  1. North America Phase Converter CP-30 ()
  2. American Rotary AD30 STK ()
  3. American Rotary ADX30 ()
?
Naturally I'd like to make use of the existing idler motor available to me.? ?AR is telling me that the ADX is the right one, but that requires a specially manufactured idler supplied only by them.? As this is a new area for me, Im struggling to understand what is marketing hype and what is good science.? All three options support the inrush current as measured by Imran for this machine.? All three produce more HP/amps than I need (with some to spare).? Are there other factors I should be considering???
?
Thank you all,
Ty
 

Ty
? It might be a trade off on the noise front.? I have both an American Rotary and a Phase Perfect.? I personally don't like the nose of the AR idler motor running nor the buzz of the PP.? I do have my AR idler up in the attic which helps.
Dave Davies

On Thu, Jan 30, 2025 at 5:55?PM Ty via <ty=[email protected]> wrote:
Update -?
?
We were ready to pull the trigger on a Phase perfect and encountered an objection I was not expecting.? The hissing / buzzing sound coming from the unit is very objectionable to my wife's ears.? She's got hearing good enough to hear a fly fart, so I suspect from any room (and our workshop and home are connected) she would hear the buzzing.? The specific sound range is nail-on-a-chalkboard grating to her.? ?I checked with PP about the sound dampening kit, and they could off "no guarantees" it would solve my issue.??
?
That was a long-winded way of saying we are back to the rotary phase converter option.? I'm pretty concerned about the power quality and effects of that on this Felder machine.? I'd appreciate input from the group on the safest way to proceed.? ?I have an unused 30HP idler motor available.? Here are the top three options under consideration -?
?
  1. North America Phase Converter CP-30 ()
  2. American Rotary AD30 STK ()
  3. American Rotary ADX30 ()
?
Naturally I'd like to make use of the existing idler motor available to me.? ?AR is telling me that the ADX is the right one, but that requires a specially manufactured idler supplied only by them.? As this is a new area for me, Im struggling to understand what is marketing hype and what is good science.? All three options support the inrush current as measured by Imran for this machine.? All three produce more HP/amps than I need (with some to spare).? Are there other factors I should be considering???
?
Thank you all,
Ty



--
Dave & Marie Davies

318-219-7868
 

Dave,
?
I have to say that my new PTE015 is far quieter than my 3 year old PTE010 was.? I had heard they were working to make them quieter and subjectively I would say it is like half as loud as the prior one.
?
YMMV and I would ask the people at Phase Perfect, but there is a significant difference.
?
PK
 

I have a PP from the last year and the noise isn’t that bad.
You can also install an on-off switch. When the unit is off you won’t be hearing any noise (and since you only use it for the J/P, the noise from running the machine will be loader than the PP)
 

I have a PT40 I just go in a crate still waiting on the new shop in addition to my 7.5HP PP...so hopefully it will be quiet.
Dave Davies

On Thu, Jan 30, 2025 at 6:21?PM netanel.belgazal via <netanel.belgazal=[email protected]> wrote:

I have a PP from the last year and the noise isn’t that bad.
You can also install an on-off switch. When the unit is off you won’t be hearing any noise (and since you only use it for the J/P, the noise from running the machine will be loader than the PP)



--
Dave & Marie Davies

318-219-7868
 

One of the few benefits of losing hearing, I suppose.?

My PP is quiet, unless the cooling fan comes on. I have it in a utility room with the furnace and water heater, so neither of us normally hear it.?
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
 

My PTE010 that I ordered about a year ago is basically nails on a chalkboard to me. Unbearable. But back then, I made a post here and someone helped me pick out a specific type of sound dampening panel that I used to hack together a makeshift enclosure around the PP. This has dramatically improved the sound, and I can barely hear it now from 20ft away in direct line of sight.
?
Might be worth looking into for your shop.
--
?
Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood

> Making youtube videos now!
??? -

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