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Configuring a single 3-phase converter to support two tools #phaseconverterquestions

 

I've recently received my AD-741 and FB-710 for a new shop and am trying to nail down the electrical configuration. ?I've not dealt with 3-phase nor am I versed in such matters, but based on prior reading here I'm looking at a Phase Perfect converter. ?After a conversation with their tech support I'm looking at the PTE010, which I understand is plenty for either tool individually but not enough to run both simultaneously, which I have no need or intention of doing. ?My question is about how to configure this. ?Ideally I'd like some way of switching the converter output to support one machine or the other and preclude the possibility of powering both simultaneously. ?I've seen some discussion here about supporting multiple tools from one converter, but nothing addressing this switching question (not that my search has been exhaustive...). ?It would be acceptable to have a single 3-phase "highway" with plugs for both machines, relying on my own discipline to only power one at a time, but that would not be my preference. ?Am I making this more difficult than it needs to be?
?
Thank you,
Doug
 

i ran a main feed line from the converter to a metal box near the machines. within the box are wabco motor starters on a DIN rail that feed individual circuits for each machine.?


On Wed, Feb 5, 2025 at 7:57?AM Doug Speck via <speckde=[email protected]> wrote:
I've recently received my AD-741 and FB-710 for a new shop and am trying to nail down the electrical configuration.? I've not dealt with 3-phase nor am I versed in such matters, but based on prior reading here I'm looking at a Phase Perfect converter.? After a conversation with their tech support I'm looking at the PTE010, which I understand is plenty for either tool individually but not enough to run both simultaneously, which I have no need or intention of doing.? My question is about how to configure this.? Ideally I'd like some way of switching the converter output to support one machine or the other and preclude the possibility of powering both simultaneously.? I've seen some discussion here about supporting multiple tools from one converter, but nothing addressing this switching question (not that my search has been exhaustive...).? It would be acceptable to have a single 3-phase "highway" with plugs for both machines, relying on my own discipline to only power one at a time, but that would not be my preference.? Am I making this more difficult than it needs to be?
?
Thank you,
Doug
 
Edited

I think you are overcomplicating things, not sure what motor configurations did you take, but if you did the 5.5HP (4kW) for the bandsaw and 7.5HP (5.5kW) for the J/P, you are at 9.5kW range, so you’ll be around 28A on 3PH, well within the PRE010 output (36A) (not to mention that it highly unlikely that you will get to the point of consuming the max peak of each machine)
 

Doug,
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Think of the phase converter output as any other circuit in your panel. You likely have circuits with multiple outlets on them that would trip the breaker if all outlets were used at the same time with a decent amount of load.
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I believe that David Best has shared a diagram in several topics here showing his wiring layout where he uses power distribution blocks to split the 3phase circuit out to multiple tools. This would be your best bet IMO. You could go the route of a dedicated 3 phase sub panel fed by the phase converter, but that's not really necessary.
--
?
Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood

> Making youtube videos now!
??? -

 

I have the 7.5HP (5.5kW) on both machines, if that matters.
?
Thank you,
Doug
 

Doug,
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I agree with the sentiments stated already.
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There are many people that just hook all of the machines to the PP in a string like they wire a 240 volt circuit.? It works, if you are not overwhelming the PP.
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The PTE010 can deliver 36 amps steady state (under-rated in everyone's opinion).? It also can deliver 150 amps for 2 seconds, 100 amps for 5 seconds, and 50 amps for 20 plus seconds.? FWIW, I ran my 15hp SCM L'invincible FS 7 off my PTE010 for over a year with zero issues.
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I now have my 3 phase set up connected to a load center with circuit breakers for each machine, but that is because I started from scratch with an empty building.
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Don't over think it!
?
PK
 

It sounds like appropriate choices for breakers would preclude my having a problem even with a circuit layout that would permit both machines to be powered up at the same time.
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I did see (and download) a diagram from David Best showing his power distribution approach.
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Thank you,
Doug
 

The answer is the same. 11kW is still within the PP output.
i think David mention that he run his Dual 51 (13.5HP) with the shaper (10HP) and still had enough power to run the TS in the background on the PTE010
 

How I run my Phase Perfect,

Main Panel -> 100amp Sub Panel, on my sub panel I have a circuit that goes to the Phase Perfect
The output of the Phase Perfect goes to a Siemens ES Series 3 Phase Main Lug Only load center, then have dedicated Q3xx breakers for each tool. Wiring direct means your machine could draw more than its rated amperage, and all wire needs to be supportive of your full output amperage.

Its a bit more outlay, but I find it gives more expandability. Others do something simmilar with a DIN rail style breaker.

Hope this helps
-Karl
 

On Wed, Feb 5, 2025 at 08:27 AM, Karl wrote:
How I run my Phase Perfect,

Main Panel -> 100amp Sub Panel, on my sub panel I have a circuit that goes to the Phase Perfect
The output of the Phase Perfect goes to a Siemens ES Series 3 Phase Main Lug Only load center, then have dedicated Q3xx breakers for each tool. Wiring direct means your machine could draw more than its rated amperage, and all wire needs to be supportive of your full output amperage.

Its a bit more outlay, but I find it gives more expandability. Others do something simmilar with a DIN rail style breaker.

Hope this helps
-Karl
Great. ?I already have the "Main Panel -> 100amp Sub Panel" part...
 

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Hi Doug,

I agree with others that you can have all machines hooked up to the PP. If you are overcautious, you can add a sub panel to protect the downstream circuits or like me add a simple distribution panel. Mine was made 25 yrs ago with salvage parts. Since then I have added a 3rd?circuit. It is nothing more that 1 to many distribution blocks (3 silver items up top) and individual circuits protected by fuses.


It is not needed but if you absolutely would like a change over (one machine powered at one time) something like this could be used.

They are very common and do offer one benefit. They will remove power from downstream circuits. Remember that single phase voltage will be provided by the phase perfect to the downstream circuits even when it is not running. My unit is old but I believe new ones work the same way.

Imran

From:[email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Doug Speck via groups.io <speckde@...>
Sent:?Wednesday, February 5, 2025 10:55 AM
To:[email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject:?[FOG] Configuring a single 3-phase converter to support two tools #phaseconverterquestions
?
I've recently received my AD-741 and FB-710 for a new shop and am trying to nail down the electrical configuration. ?I've not dealt with 3-phase nor am I versed in such matters, but based on prior reading here I'm looking at a Phase Perfect converter. ?After a conversation with their tech support I'm looking at the PTE010, which I understand is plenty for either tool individually but not enough to run both simultaneously, which I have no need or intention of doing. ?My question is about how to configure this. ?Ideally I'd like some way of switching the converter output to support one machine or the other and preclude the possibility of powering both simultaneously. ?I've seen some discussion here about supporting multiple tools from one converter, but nothing addressing this switching question (not that my search has been exhaustive...). ?It would be acceptable to have a single 3-phase "highway" with plugs for both machines, relying on my own discipline to only power one at a time, but that would not be my preference. ?Am I making this more difficult than it needs to be?
?
Thank you,
Doug
 

"Wiring direct means your machine could draw more than its rated amperage, and all wire needs to be supportive of your full output amperage."

Just to clarify on this point, wiring direct from your PP to a machine would require the wire from the PP Output to a machine to be rated for full ampacity. So on a PTE010, means each machine would need to be like 8AWG Copper, so would get expensive fast if you had any long runs, vs some 12AWG copper for a 4Kw motor for example.

That said, I always recommend consulting an electrican if your not certain, as random people (me included) on the internet don't have liability if you have an electrical fault that causes a fire, or breaks a machine!

-Karl
 

I find that whenever resawing multiples from a single board, it is convenient to have both the jointer and bandsaw running at the same time. This is to eliminate the need to power them on and off as the rough face from the band saw is jointed after each resaw.
?
Sal
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Sal, I do the same thing. When ripping narrower pieces from a wider board I do a similar thing - joint, rip, joint, rip.
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My understanding is that the machines draw little power when just idling.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
 

Karl.
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I did it almost the same as you did but the shop has 200amps and I now have a PTE015r.
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The main panel with the 125amp breaker for the PP:
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The PP PTE015R is right outside on the back side of the main panel.? This is my Siemens 3PH panel:
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I wired the machines with separate circuits and breakers.? I just had to pull new wire through the conduit for my new saw - needed 40 amps - and then moved the dust collector to an outside building so I needed to fill the last breaker spot in the panel.
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Overkill yes, but no drama anymore.? I have since taken some advice from the NEC and used the proper wire colors/tape for each of the three phases.? Black, Blue and Red.
?
PK
 

On Wed, Feb 5, 2025 at 08:32 AM, imranindiana wrote:
It is not needed but if you absolutely would like a change over (one machine powered at one time) something like this could be used.
?
They are very common and do offer one benefit. They will remove power from downstream circuits. Remember that single phase voltage will be provided by the phase perfect to the downstream circuits even when it is not running. My unit is old but I believe new ones work the same way.
?
This is what I was envisioning.
?
In the case of single phase voltage being passed through whether running the machine or not, what is the risk? ?Obviously, you have a live circuit, but is there something else?
?
Thank you,
Doug
 

Be aware too that the switch in that link is listed as not being made for load breaking. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know what would happen if you switched it while a machine was powered on, but for disconnect switches, I always look for ones rated for load breaking.
--
?
Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood

> Making youtube videos now!
??? -

 

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Larry, Thanks for pointing out. Something’s are obvious to me but never hurts to spell it out. In OP’s application, I cannot imagine NOT switching one machine off prior to turning on the next machine.

Imran Malik
IAM Wood Creations

On Feb 5, 2025, at 2:30?PM, Larry Long Neck via groups.io <longneckwood@...> wrote:

?
Be aware too that the switch in that link is listed as not being made for load breaking. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know what would happen if you switched it while a machine was powered on, but for disconnect switches, I always look for ones rated for load breaking.
--
?
Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood

> Making youtube videos now!
??? -

 

I'm actually curious what would happen if say the main motor was off but the machine itself was still powered on (LCD screens, lights, etc) and you turned that switch. I would imagine it would arc?
--
?
Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood

> Making youtube videos now!
??? -

 

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Hi Doug,

You have a disconnect at the machine so, no issue with servicing the machine. I only shared because you asked but I personally would not use such device. It would be an absolute pain to switchover every time I switch machine.

I may have missed it, but if not mentioned already I would like to add. If a single run is made directly from PP to the machines then the wiring needs to be rated to the PP breaker size. If you add a subpanel or distribution box with fuses then the heavy cable is only between PP and the box or panel. Downstream circuits then are wired according to their fuse size. I have a 30A, 20A & 10A 3 phase run from my distribution box. Obviously, the run from the circuit breaker in main panel to the PP also is per breaker size.

I am not a licensed electrician and codes do change somewhat based upon location. Hopefully, someone will correct if I am mistaken.

Imran Malik
IAM Wood Creations

On Feb 5, 2025, at 2:26?PM, Doug Speck via groups.io <speckde@...> wrote:

?
On Wed, Feb 5, 2025 at 08:32 AM, imranindiana wrote:
It is not needed but if you absolutely would like a change over (one machine powered at one time) something like this could be used.
?
They are very common and do offer one benefit. They will remove power from downstream circuits. Remember that single phase voltage will be provided by the phase perfect to the downstream circuits even when it is not running. My unit is old but I believe new ones work the same way.
?
This is what I was envisioning.
?
In the case of single phase voltage being passed through whether running the machine or not, what is the risk? ?Obviously, you have a live circuit, but is there something else?
?
Thank you,
Doug

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