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Hello folks, I’m new here having just purchased a couple of second hand Hammer machines, a B3 Perform and an N4400.
Overall I am delighted with both machines, however the B3 has an odd (and very unsafe) quirk in that sometimes it won’t switch off, using any of the “off” switches (there are three in all on this model).
I leave the machine unplugged unless I’m using it, and unplugging does NOT necessarily reset it back to a normal condition - if I plug it in again, some times it will start immediately.
As far as I can tell there have been no alterations to the wiring of the machine, and a lot of the time it works just as expected, however sometimes it goes rogue.
The only thing I can think is that (maybe!) the “on” switch contact(s) are somehow “locked” together in the “on” position inside the switch, and thus override any of the “off” switches. Just to be clear, once the saw is in this “I’m staying on whatever you do” mode, I cannot switch it off using the off button next to the on switch, the emergency off button at the side of the saw, or the emergency off button at the rear of the saw. Both of the latter are of the “push to stop, rotate and pull to re-enable” variety.
Any help you can give will be greatly appreciated - as it stands the saw is a bit on the deadly side.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions you can provide.
Regards, Morgan
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The start/stop buttons are all low voltage that engage or disengage a relay inside the machine to power it on/off. I suspect your relay has burned contacts and is sticking shut. Replace that and it should solve your problems.
Brian Lamb blamb11@... lambtoolworks.com
On Wednesday, January 29, 2025 at 07:42:07 AM MST, Morgan Skinner <morgan@...> wrote:
Hello folks, I’m new here having just purchased a couple of second hand Hammer machines, a B3 Perform and an N4400.
Overall I am delighted with both machines, however the B3 has an odd (and very unsafe) quirk in that sometimes it won’t switch off, using any of the “off” switches (there are three in all on this model).
I leave the machine unplugged unless I’m using it, and unplugging does NOT necessarily reset it back to a normal condition - if I plug it in again, some times it will start immediately.
As far as I can tell there have been no alterations to the wiring of the machine, and a lot of the time it works just as expected, however sometimes it goes rogue.
The only thing I can think is that (maybe!) the “on” switch contact(s) are somehow “locked” together in the “on” position inside the switch, and thus override any of the “off” switches. Just to be clear, once the saw is in this “I’m staying on whatever you do” mode, I cannot switch it off using the off button next to the on switch, the emergency off button at the side of the saw, or the emergency off button at the rear of the saw. Both of the latter are of the “push to stop, rotate and pull to re-enable” variety.
Any help you can give will be greatly appreciated - as it stands the saw is a bit on the deadly side.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions you can provide.
Regards, Morgan
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Brian,
Thanks for the very prompt reply. Could you help me to identify which part the relay is?
Thanks again for your assistance, it’s very much appreciated.
Regards,
Morgan
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On 29 Jan 2025, at 14:46, Brian Lamb via groups.io <blamb11@...> wrote:
?
The start/stop buttons are all low voltage that engage or disengage a relay inside the machine to power it on/off. I suspect your relay has burned contacts and is sticking shut. Replace that and it should solve your problems.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
lambtoolworks.com
On Wednesday, January 29, 2025 at 07:42:07 AM MST, Morgan Skinner <morgan@...> wrote:
Hello folks, I’m new here having just purchased a couple of second hand Hammer machines, a B3 Perform and an N4400.
Overall I am delighted with both machines, however the B3 has an odd (and very unsafe) quirk in that sometimes it won’t switch off, using any of the “off” switches (there are three in all on this model).
I leave the machine unplugged unless I’m using it, and unplugging does NOT necessarily reset it back to a normal condition - if I plug it in again, some times it will start immediately.
As far as I can tell there have been no alterations to the wiring of the machine, and a lot of the time it works just as expected, however sometimes it goes rogue.
The only thing I can think is that (maybe!) the “on” switch contact(s) are somehow “locked” together in the “on” position inside the switch, and thus override any of the “off” switches. Just to be clear, once the saw is in this “I’m staying on
whatever you do” mode, I cannot switch it off using the off button next to the on switch, the emergency off button at the side of the saw, or the emergency off button at the rear of the saw. Both of the latter are of the “push to stop, rotate and pull to re-enable”
variety.
Any help you can give will be greatly appreciated - as it stands the saw is a bit on the deadly side.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions you can provide.
Regards, Morgan
|
I don't have a wiring diagram, but it's going to be one of the black boxes on the lower right in your picture. I would contact Felder or examine your wiring chart to determine which is which.
Brian Lamb blamb11@... lambtoolworks.com
On Wednesday, January 29, 2025 at 08:12:31 AM MST, Morgan Skinner <morgan@...> wrote:
Brian,
Thanks for the very prompt reply. Could you help me to identify which part the relay is?
Thanks again for your assistance, it’s very much appreciated.
Regards,
Morgan
On 29 Jan 2025, at 14:46, Brian Lamb via groups.io <blamb11@...> wrote:
?
The start/stop buttons are all low voltage that engage or disengage a relay inside the machine to power it on/off. I suspect your relay has burned contacts and is sticking shut. Replace that and it should solve your problems.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
lambtoolworks.com
On Wednesday, January 29, 2025 at 07:42:07 AM MST, Morgan Skinner <morgan@...> wrote:
Hello folks, I’m new here having just purchased a couple of second hand Hammer machines, a B3 Perform and an N4400.
Overall I am delighted with both machines, however the B3 has an odd (and very unsafe) quirk in that sometimes it won’t switch off, using any of the “off” switches (there are three in all on this model).
I leave the machine unplugged unless I’m using it, and unplugging does NOT necessarily reset it back to a normal condition - if I plug it in again, some times it will start immediately.
As far as I can tell there have been no alterations to the wiring of the machine, and a lot of the time it works just as expected, however sometimes it goes rogue.
The only thing I can think is that (maybe!) the “on” switch contact(s) are somehow “locked” together in the “on” position inside the switch, and thus override any of the “off” switches. Just to be clear, once the saw is in this “I’m staying on
whatever you do” mode, I cannot switch it off using the off button next to the on switch, the emergency off button at the side of the saw, or the emergency off button at the rear of the saw. Both of the latter are of the “push to stop, rotate and pull to re-enable”
variety.
Any help you can give will be greatly appreciated - as it stands the saw is a bit on the deadly side.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions you can provide.
Regards, Morgan
|
I agree with Brian on sticking relay but want to caution you (if you are probing) that some Hammer machines do run line voltage to the switches. This was discussed before here:
?
The older hammer machines have a schematic with 24VAC safety circuit like Felder but based on only 2 accounts it seems that the Hammer has line voltage going to switches.
?
The older machines with low voltage circuit, that I have come across, have electrical cabinet like Felder. The newer Hammer machine has all electrical stuffed in a box and the 2 machines I have come across with line voltage switches (one in USA the other abroad) were of this design.
?
Imran Malik
IAM Wood Creations
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Brian,?
Thanks once again - I’ll contact Felder.
Cheers,
Morgan
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Show quoted text
On 29 Jan 2025, at 15:27, Brian Lamb via groups.io <blamb11@...> wrote:
?
I don't have a wiring diagram, but it's going to be one of the black boxes on the lower right in your picture. I would contact Felder or examine your wiring chart to determine which is which.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
lambtoolworks.com
On Wednesday, January 29, 2025 at 08:12:31 AM MST, Morgan Skinner <morgan@...> wrote:
Brian,
Thanks for the very prompt reply. Could you help me to identify which part the relay is?
Thanks again for your assistance, it’s very much appreciated.
Regards,
Morgan
On 29 Jan 2025, at 14:46, Brian Lamb via groups.io <blamb11@...> wrote:
?
The start/stop buttons are all low voltage that engage or disengage a relay inside the machine to power it on/off. I suspect your relay has burned contacts and is sticking shut. Replace that and it should solve your problems.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
lambtoolworks.com
On Wednesday, January 29, 2025 at 07:42:07 AM MST, Morgan Skinner <morgan@...> wrote:
Hello folks, I’m new here having just purchased a couple of second hand Hammer machines, a B3 Perform and an N4400.
Overall I am delighted with both machines, however the B3 has an odd (and very unsafe) quirk in that sometimes it won’t switch off, using any of the “off” switches (there are three in all on this model).
I leave the machine unplugged unless I’m using it, and unplugging does NOT necessarily reset it back to a normal condition - if I plug it in again, some times it will start immediately.
As far as I can tell there have been no alterations to the wiring of the machine, and a lot of the time it works just as expected, however sometimes it goes rogue.
The only thing I can think is that (maybe!) the “on” switch contact(s) are somehow “locked” together in the “on” position inside the switch, and thus override any of the “off” switches. Just to be clear, once the saw is in this “I’m staying on
whatever you do” mode, I cannot switch it off using the off button next to the on switch, the emergency off button at the side of the saw, or the emergency off button at the rear of the saw. Both of the latter are of the “push to stop, rotate and pull to re-enable”
variety.
Any help you can give will be greatly appreciated - as it stands the saw is a bit on the deadly side.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions you can provide.
Regards, Morgan
<image0.jpeg>
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Thanks Imran - I’ve decided against using my multimeter here as looking at the wiring at the switch and the gauge of wire used, I’d be surprised if it was anything but mains voltage.
Cheers,
Morgan
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Show quoted text
On 29 Jan 2025, at 15:38, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
?
I agree with Brian on sticking relay but want to caution you (if you are probing) that some Hammer machines do run line voltage to the switches. This was discussed before here:
?
The older hammer machines have a schematic with 24VAC safety circuit like Felder but based on only 2 accounts it seems that the Hammer has line voltage going to switches.
?
The older machines with low voltage circuit, that I have come across, have electrical cabinet like Felder. The newer Hammer machine has all electrical stuffed in a box and the 2 machines I have come across with line voltage switches (one in USA the other
abroad) were of this design.
?
Imran Malik
IAM Wood Creations
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Hi Morgan,
If possible please share your machine electrical docs here or with me privately. It helps us to help others with these docs. Currently I only have hammer C3-31 circa 2000.
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Show quoted text
On Jan 29, 2025, at 11:52?AM, Morgan Skinner via groups.io <morgan@...> wrote: ?
Thanks Imran - I’ve decided against using my multimeter here as looking at the wiring at the switch and the gauge of wire used, I’d be surprised if it was anything but mains voltage.
Cheers,
Morgan
On 29 Jan 2025, at 15:38, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
?
I agree with Brian on sticking relay but want to caution you (if you are probing) that some Hammer machines do run line voltage to the switches. This was discussed before here:
?
The older hammer machines have a schematic with 24VAC safety circuit like Felder but based on only 2 accounts it seems that the Hammer has line voltage going to switches.
?
The older machines with low voltage circuit, that I have come across, have electrical cabinet like Felder. The newer Hammer machine has all electrical stuffed in a box and the 2 machines I have come across with line voltage switches (one in USA the other
abroad) were of this design.
?
Imran Malik
IAM Wood Creations
|
Hi Morgan,
I should have also mentioned that if your machine is out of warranty, you can purchase the relay online by using the PN on the relay. The PN should also be in the wiring diagram. There are coupon reasons to consider this. The potential price delta and the time it might take for you to receive the part.
It is also easy to confirm the stuck contacts once I am able to see the electrical docs. Can be done safely with power removed.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 29, 2025, at 11:52?AM, Morgan Skinner via groups.io <morgan@...> wrote: ?
Thanks Imran - I’ve decided against using my multimeter here as looking at the wiring at the switch and the gauge of wire used, I’d be surprised if it was anything but mains voltage.
Cheers,
Morgan
On 29 Jan 2025, at 15:38, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
?
I agree with Brian on sticking relay but want to caution you (if you are probing) that some Hammer machines do run line voltage to the switches. This was discussed before here:
?
The older hammer machines have a schematic with 24VAC safety circuit like Felder but based on only 2 accounts it seems that the Hammer has line voltage going to switches.
?
The older machines with low voltage circuit, that I have come across, have electrical cabinet like Felder. The newer Hammer machine has all electrical stuffed in a box and the 2 machines I have come across with line voltage switches (one in USA the other
abroad) were of this design.
?
Imran Malik
IAM Wood Creations
|
Imran,
?
Thanks again for your help here. Felder have provided me with the attached, which may be the correct schematic, but my machine is 2014 and this schematic is from 2019. The chap from
Felder mentioned he thought it might be the brake board. I’m not sure if my B3 has a brake, I can’t say I’ve used a saw that does, and mine (when it does decide to shut off) doesn’t seem to spin down any slower than the other table saws I have owned which
most definitely didn’t have a brake.
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Anyway, he mentioned this…
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I have picked up your ticket with regards to your hammer B3P and looking at the information on the ticket I would suggest the brake board is being temperamental
and needs to be looked at.
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The brake board is labelled up either 1B1 or 2B1 and is shown on the attached wiring diagram, there is a small led light on this and I would be interested
to see what that light is doing. Stable or flashing.
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The reason I don’t think this is anything to do with the brake (even if I have one) is that I’d expect there to be an NVR switch/circuit in a machine of this quality, and whilst
I appreciate that once running, if there was a brake then that could possibly impede the shutdown, I’d also expect that removing the power entirely and then plugging it in again would not make the saw start up again.
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Anyway, I’ve attached the schematic and if I do happen to get another one I’ll pass that on.
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Cheers,
?
Morgan
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From: felderownersgroup@groups.io <felderownersgroup@groups.io>
On Behalf Of imranindiana via groups.io
Sent: 29 January 2025 17:29
To: felderownersgroup@groups.io
Cc: felderownersgroup@groups.io
Subject: Re: [FOG] B3 won’t switch off
?
Hi Morgan,
I should have also mentioned that if your machine is out of warranty, you can purchase the relay online by using the PN on the relay. The PN should also be in the wiring diagram. There are coupon reasons to consider this. The potential
price delta and the time it might take for you to receive the part.
It is also easy to confirm the stuck contacts once I am able to see the electrical docs. Can be done safely with power removed.
On Jan 29, 2025, at 11:52?AM, Morgan Skinner via groups.io <morgan@...> wrote:
?
Thanks Imran - I’ve decided against using my multimeter here as looking at the wiring at the switch and the gauge of wire used, I’d be surprised if it was anything but mains voltage.
?
I agree with Brian on sticking relay but want to caution you (if you are probing) that some Hammer machines do run line voltage to the switches. This was discussed before here:
The older hammer machines have a schematic with 24VAC safety circuit like Felder but based on only 2 accounts it seems that the Hammer has line voltage going to switches.
The older machines with low voltage circuit, that I have come across, have electrical cabinet like Felder. The newer Hammer machine has all electrical stuffed in a box and the 2 machines I have come across with line voltage switches (one
in USA the other abroad) were of this design.
Imran Malik
IAM Wood Creations
|
imran
