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My new saw is mis-behaving. The commissioning tech suggests changing the output voltage from my Phase Perfect to be closer to 230 v. Right now the display is showing voltages flickering around 240 to 242 volts. Felder recommends voltage within 5% of the machine’s electrical package, which I think is 240 volts.
?
Anyone here made such an adjustment? The PP manual describes a process, but I’m not much of an electrical wizard.
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John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
|
Hi John,
First, I thought Felder spec was +/- 10% (207V - 253V). May be Felder spec is tighter for saws with PCS.
My PP unit is very old and don’t recall it having the capability of changing the output. It creates the 3rd leg within some tolerance of the single phase input, which BTW, goes to the machine unadulterated. I can see them adding a calibration for the manufactured leg on the the new units but it would be difficult to modify the input voltage without a transformer (that is one way and least complicated).
You can share your PP document (relevant section) if you want another set of eyes.
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On Dec 16, 2024, at 4:20?PM, John Hinman via groups.io <jhinman1911@...> wrote: ? My new saw is mis-behaving. The commissioning tech suggests changing the output voltage from my Phase Perfect to be closer to 230 v. Right now the display is showing voltages flickering around 240 to 242 volts. Felder recommends voltage within 5% of the machine’s electrical package, which I think is 240 volts.
?
Anyone here made such an adjustment? The PP manual describes a process, but I’m not much of an electrical wizard.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
|
I had an issue when I got my 2nd PP here in Arizona. The voltage being delivered to my house by the utility was too high. I was unable to alter the output of the PP unit. I had to add a buck/boost box prior to the Phase Perfect to get the voltage down to acceptable levels for the output to be within tolerance. The utility came to my house and although their voltage was at their top limit, they weren’t going to do anything.? Bill Belanger
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On Dec 16, 2024, at 15:02, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? Hi John,
First, I thought Felder spec was +/- 10% (207V - 253V). May be Felder spec is tighter for saws with PCS.
My PP unit is very old and don’t recall it having the capability of changing the output. It creates the 3rd leg within some tolerance of the single phase input, which BTW, goes to the machine unadulterated. I can see them adding a calibration for the manufactured leg on the the new units but it would be difficult to modify the input voltage without a transformer (that is one way and least complicated).
You can share your PP document (relevant section) if you want another set of eyes.
On Dec 16, 2024, at 4:20?PM, John Hinman via groups.io <jhinman1911@...> wrote:
? My new saw is mis-behaving. The commissioning tech suggests changing the output voltage from my Phase Perfect to be closer to 230 v. Right now the display is showing voltages flickering around 240 to 242 volts. Felder recommends voltage within 5% of the machine’s electrical package, which I think is 240 volts.
?
Anyone here made such an adjustment? The PP manual describes a process, but I’m not much of an electrical wizard.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
|
I’m not an electrician but my electrician worked with Felder and we got the output to be where we needed. Bill Belanger
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On Dec 16, 2024, at 15:17, Bill Belanger via groups.io <bllblngr@...> wrote:
? I had an issue when I got my 2nd PP here in Arizona. The voltage being delivered to my house by the utility was too high. I was unable to alter the output of the PP unit. I had to add a buck/boost box prior to the Phase Perfect to get the voltage down to acceptable levels for the output to be within tolerance. The utility came to my house and although their voltage was at their top limit, they weren’t going to do anything.? Bill Belanger On Dec 16, 2024, at 15:02, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? Hi John,
First, I thought Felder spec was +/- 10% (207V - 253V). May be Felder spec is tighter for saws with PCS.
My PP unit is very old and don’t recall it having the capability of changing the output. It creates the 3rd leg within some tolerance of the single phase input, which BTW, goes to the machine unadulterated. I can see them adding a calibration for the manufactured leg on the the new units but it would be difficult to modify the input voltage without a transformer (that is one way and least complicated).
You can share your PP document (relevant section) if you want another set of eyes.
On Dec 16, 2024, at 4:20?PM, John Hinman via groups.io <jhinman1911@...> wrote:
? My new saw is mis-behaving. The commissioning tech suggests changing the output voltage from my Phase Perfect to be closer to 230 v. Right now the display is showing voltages flickering around 240 to 242 volts. Felder recommends voltage within 5% of the machine’s electrical package, which I think is 240 volts.
?
Anyone here made such an adjustment? The PP manual describes a process, but I’m not much of an electrical wizard.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
|
Imran is correct that T1 and T2 pass directly through the Phase Perfect unit unaltered. ?When I had my shop in San Francisco, the voltage was 208. Phase Perfect was able to supply the necessary buck/boost transformer to bring it up to the required 230 V. ?So you might check with Phase Perfect. ? David Best - via mobile phone?
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On Dec 16, 2024, at 2:22?PM, Bill Belanger via groups.io <bllblngr@...> wrote:
? I’m not an electrician but my electrician worked with Felder and we got the output to be where we needed. Bill Belanger <image0.jpeg> <image1.jpeg> On Dec 16, 2024, at 15:17, Bill Belanger via groups.io <bllblngr@...> wrote:
? I had an issue when I got my 2nd PP here in Arizona. The voltage being delivered to my house by the utility was too high. I was unable to alter the output of the PP unit. I had to add a buck/boost box prior to the Phase Perfect to get the voltage down to acceptable levels for the output to be within tolerance. The utility came to my house and although their voltage was at their top limit, they weren’t going to do anything.? Bill Belanger On Dec 16, 2024, at 15:02, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? Hi John,
First, I thought Felder spec was +/- 10% (207V - 253V). May be Felder spec is tighter for saws with PCS.
My PP unit is very old and don’t recall it having the capability of changing the output. It creates the 3rd leg within some tolerance of the single phase input, which BTW, goes to the machine unadulterated. I can see them adding a calibration for the manufactured leg on the the new units but it would be difficult to modify the input voltage without a transformer (that is one way and least complicated).
You can share your PP document (relevant section) if you want another set of eyes.
On Dec 16, 2024, at 4:20?PM, John Hinman via groups.io <jhinman1911@...> wrote:
? My new saw is mis-behaving. The commissioning tech suggests changing the output voltage from my Phase Perfect to be closer to 230 v. Right now the display is showing voltages flickering around 240 to 242 volts. Felder recommends voltage within 5% of the machine’s electrical package, which I think is 240 volts.
?
Anyone here made such an adjustment? The PP manual describes a process, but I’m not much of an electrical wizard.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
|
I understand that T1 and T2 pass unaltered, so T1/ground and T2/ground voltages are as supplied by the utility. T3 is manufactured. In my case, my electrician measured T1/ground and T2/ground as 118.5 and 119.8 v, and T3/ground was 207. Leg to leg voltages were 238 v for each combination.
?
Today I measured 119.3, 208, and 121 to ground, and leg to leg voltages of 240, 240.5, and 241.5, so a little higher than the electrician measured. I confess to being not experienced in this sort of thing, and it is hard to get the right connection in the outlet to measure voltages.
?
It ?is the leg-to-leg voltage that Felder seems to be concerned with, and they recommend a tighter tolerance for PCS-equipped machines. If the machine is looking for 230 volts I am right at the 5% tolerance. The cotton-pickin’ thing ought to be OK.
?
I can only guess what the voltage calibration procedure PP describes actually does. Perhaps it changes the relationship between the manufactured leg and each of the two other legs (V23 and V31). I attached a couple of screen shots of the pages from the PP manual.
?
?
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
|
Hi John,
The top part of the first page appears to describe output voltage calibration. I would only venture there if the output voltage (manufactured leg) was out of specified tolerance.
Like others have mentioned if you need to change the voltage to the machine you need to lower/raise the single phase voltage to PP with a buck/boost transformer.
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On Dec 16, 2024, at 8:21?PM, John Hinman via groups.io <jhinman1911@...> wrote: ? I understand that T1 and T2 pass unaltered, so T1/ground and T2/ground voltages are as supplied by the utility. T3 is manufactured. In my case, my electrician measured T1/ground and T2/ground as 118.5 and 119.8 v, and T3/ground was 207. Leg to leg voltages were 238 v for each combination.
?
Today I measured 119.3, 208, and 121 to ground, and leg to leg voltages of 240, 240.5, and 241.5, so a little higher than the electrician measured. I confess to being not experienced in this sort of thing, and it is hard to get the right connection in the outlet to measure voltages.
?
It ?is the leg-to-leg voltage that Felder seems to be concerned with, and they recommend a tighter tolerance for PCS-equipped machines. If the machine is looking for 230 volts I am right at the 5% tolerance. The cotton-pickin’ thing ought to be OK.
?
I can only guess what the voltage calibration procedure PP describes actually does. Perhaps it changes the relationship between the manufactured leg and each of the two other legs (V23 and V31). I attached a couple of screen shots of the pages from the PP manual.
<IMG_3197.jpeg> <IMG_3196.jpeg> ?
?
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
|
That makes sense, Imran. Even if I changed the manufactured leg, the leg to leg voltage of the two native legs would not change.
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
|
Hot leg to ground is a meaningless measurement in this application. ?Since there is no neutral in the supply to the machine, your electrician should have known that. ? A properly sized and configured buck/boost transformer will bring down the two supply legs and the third manufactured leg should follow. So before you go tweaking the manufactured leg output voltage, get a transformer installed and the input voltage between L1 and L2 stabilized at the proper level. ? David Best - via mobile phone?
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On Dec 16, 2024, at 5:21?PM, John Hinman via groups.io <jhinman1911@...> wrote:
? I understand that T1 and T2 pass unaltered, so T1/ground and T2/ground voltages are as supplied by the utility. T3 is manufactured. In my case, my electrician measured T1/ground and T2/ground as 118.5 and 119.8 v, and T3/ground was 207. Leg to leg voltages were 238 v for each combination.
?
Today I measured 119.3, 208, and 121 to ground, and leg to leg voltages of 240, 240.5, and 241.5, so a little higher than the electrician measured. I confess to being not experienced in this sort of thing, and it is hard to get the right connection in the outlet to measure voltages.
?
It ?is the leg-to-leg voltage that Felder seems to be concerned with, and they recommend a tighter tolerance for PCS-equipped machines. If the machine is looking for 230 volts I am right at the 5% tolerance. The cotton-pickin’ thing ought to be OK.
?
I can only guess what the voltage calibration procedure PP describes actually does. Perhaps it changes the relationship between the manufactured leg and each of the two other legs (V23 and V31). I attached a couple of screen shots of the pages from the PP manual.
<IMG_3197.jpeg> <IMG_3196.jpeg> ?
?
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
|
I sure like my single phase machines! ???
Wade
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On Dec 16, 2024, at 6:56 PM, David P. Best via groups.io <dbestworkshop@...> wrote:
? Hot leg to ground is a meaningless measurement in this application. ?Since there is no neutral in the supply to the machine, your electrician should have known that. ? A properly sized and configured buck/boost transformer will bring down the two supply legs and the third manufactured leg should follow. So before you go tweaking the manufactured leg output voltage, get a transformer installed and the input voltage between L1 and L2 stabilized at the proper level. ? David Best - via mobile phone? On Dec 16, 2024, at 5:21?PM, John Hinman via groups.io <jhinman1911@...> wrote:
? I understand that T1 and T2 pass unaltered, so T1/ground and T2/ground voltages are as supplied by the utility. T3 is manufactured. In my case, my electrician measured T1/ground and T2/ground as 118.5 and 119.8 v, and T3/ground was 207. Leg to leg voltages were 238 v for each combination.
?
Today I measured 119.3, 208, and 121 to ground, and leg to leg voltages of 240, 240.5, and 241.5, so a little higher than the electrician measured. I confess to being not experienced in this sort of thing, and it is hard to get the right connection in the outlet to measure voltages.
?
It ?is the leg-to-leg voltage that Felder seems to be concerned with, and they recommend a tighter tolerance for PCS-equipped machines. If the machine is looking for 230 volts I am right at the 5% tolerance. The cotton-pickin’ thing ought to be OK.
?
I can only guess what the voltage calibration procedure PP describes actually does. Perhaps it changes the relationship between the manufactured leg and each of the two other legs (V23 and V31). I attached a couple of screen shots of the pages from the PP manual.
<IMG_3197.jpeg> <IMG_3196.jpeg> ?
?
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
|
I'm wondering if something like this on the supply-side of the PP would help you:
?
https://www.larsonelectronics.com/product/297641/1-phase-buck-boost-step-down-transformer-240v-primary-230v-secondary-65-7-amps-50-60hz?productIdBase64=Mjk3NjQx0&rank=11
?
Rohit Kulshreshtha
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David Best, they just sit in my Felder cart, for when the day comes. ??
They offer custom colors now?! ?????
Wade
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On Dec 16, 2024, at 8:15 PM, David P. Best via groups.io <dbestworkshop@...> wrote:
? Wade, ? Do you have start-up capacitors on your holiday wish list? ? ? ?Hint: the mauve colored ones last longer but cost extra. ? David Best - via mobile phone? On Dec 16, 2024, at 7:34?PM, Wade Dees via groups.io <wjdsignature@...> wrote:
? I sure like my single phase machines! ???
Wade
On Dec 16, 2024, at 6:56 PM, David P. Best via groups.io <dbestworkshop@...> wrote:
? Hot leg to ground is a meaningless measurement in this application. ?Since there is no neutral in the supply to the machine, your electrician should have known that. ? A properly sized and configured buck/boost transformer will bring down the two supply legs and the third manufactured leg should follow. So before you go tweaking the manufactured leg output voltage, get a transformer installed and the input voltage between L1 and L2 stabilized at the proper level. ? David Best - via mobile phone? On Dec 16, 2024, at 5:21?PM, John Hinman via groups.io <jhinman1911@...> wrote:
? I understand that T1 and T2 pass unaltered, so T1/ground and T2/ground voltages are as supplied by the utility. T3 is manufactured. In my case, my electrician measured T1/ground and T2/ground as 118.5 and 119.8 v, and T3/ground was 207. Leg to leg voltages were 238 v for each combination.
?
Today I measured 119.3, 208, and 121 to ground, and leg to leg voltages of 240, 240.5, and 241.5, so a little higher than the electrician measured. I confess to being not experienced in this sort of thing, and it is hard to get the right connection in the outlet to measure voltages.
?
It ?is the leg-to-leg voltage that Felder seems to be concerned with, and they recommend a tighter tolerance for PCS-equipped machines. If the machine is looking for 230 volts I am right at the 5% tolerance. The cotton-pickin’ thing ought to be OK.
?
I can only guess what the voltage calibration procedure PP describes actually does. Perhaps it changes the relationship between the manufactured leg and each of the two other legs (V23 and V31). I attached a couple of screen shots of the pages from the PP manual.
<IMG_3197.jpeg> <IMG_3196.jpeg> ?
?
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
|
That looks like the correct transformer, if indeed that is what is needed.?
It seems that my supply is within spec, although just barely. If it was cheap and easy to cut the voltage back by 5% just to see if it makes a difference, I would do it. Before I spend $1,200 or $1,500 on a transformer I need to be pretty certain it will fix things.?
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John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
|
This unit on McMaster seems to be cheaper:
?
?
Thanks,
Rohit Kulshreshtha
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Something else is wrong here.? 230v is an old designation, just as 220 is for even older machines.? Any new 3 phase machine sourced to the US will run on either 208 or 240v.? 230 is sometimes used to reference?a machine that will run on either.? Since US voltage
varies +- from 240, there is no way running at 238-242 is going to cause problems, and no way would a new machine need a buck transformer to operate in this market.
How is the machine misbehaving?? I've bought machines with a starter that had an incorrect coil, a faulty transformer, or wiring labeled incorrectly.? Spending to adjust the incoming voltage seems like high risk low reward compared to the more common problems.
Dave
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That looks like the correct transformer, if indeed that is what is needed.?
It seems that my supply is within spec, although just barely. If it was cheap and easy to cut the voltage back by 5% just to see if it makes a difference, I would do it. Before I spend $1,200 or $1,500 on a transformer I need to be pretty certain it will
fix things.?
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
|
That was my first reaction also. ?I think you’re getting bad input from the Felder technician. ?Given the readings you have provided regarding the leg-to-leg voltage levels, there should be no reason this machine should malfunction because of your current power supply voltage levels.
The intermittent start button behavior described in John’s earlier post sounds to me more like: A) dirty sliding table bearing ways impacting the remote start/stop function, B) a loose wire related to the remote start/stop button, or C) given that the problem clears up by re-powering the machine, that the breaking circuit is not correctly adjusted. ?All of those issues have been cited in other posts by other users relating to intermittent start failures. ?And who knows what the new PCS system is introducing in terms of this problem. What David Best - via mobile phone?
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On Dec 16, 2024, at 9:11?PM, David Kumm via groups.io <davekumm@...> wrote:
?
Something else is wrong here.? 230v is an old designation, just as 220 is for even older machines.? Any new 3 phase machine sourced to the US will run on either 208 or 240v.? 230 is sometimes used to reference?a machine that will run on either.? Since US voltage
varies +- from 240, there is no way running at 238-242 is going to cause problems, and no way would a new machine need a buck transformer to operate in this market.
How is the machine misbehaving?? I've bought machines with a starter that had an incorrect coil, a faulty transformer, or wiring labeled incorrectly.? Spending to adjust the incoming voltage seems like high risk low reward compared to the more common problems.
Dave
That looks like the correct transformer, if indeed that is what is needed.?
It seems that my supply is within spec, although just barely. If it was cheap and easy to cut the voltage back by 5% just to see if it makes a difference, I would do it. Before I spend $1,200 or $1,500 on a transformer I need to be pretty certain it will
fix things.?
--
John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
|
David Kümm, in this case misbehaving is failure to respond to the start button. The saw will work a few times (one or two start - stop cycles), then just not respond until the main power is switched off and on. All other features work, such as moving the blade and the fence.
?
As far as the voltage is concerned, you can easily tell by my posts that I do not know much about electrical things.
?
The commissioning agreement contains the following. The values filled in the blanks were measured at the outlet (no load) by the electrician.
?
For the “machines electrical package” I looked in the user manual for the saw. It says 3 x 230v. The nameplate on the saw itself says 230 volts also.
?
I certainly agree that adjusting the input voltage is unlikely to make much difference. If there is a voltage issue anywhere it is more likely to be an internal issue.
?
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John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941
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David Best,
?
I did wipe down the rails, clearing some smudge. I’ve not checked the switch on the slider, but can do that tomorrow.
?
Interesting that you mention the braking circuit. It took the tech some time to get the braking right. It would screech loudly and stop immediately, or have little or no braking at all. He finally got the blade to stop smoothly in approximately 6 to 7 seconds.
?
I really appreciate the time, effort, and expertise people here have chipped in to help me!
?
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John Hinman
Boise ID USA
Kappa 450X and A941
|
John, if the technician left the electrical box unsealed and you can open it without breaking the seal, open it to see if after the saw fails to start you have a blinking LED on the brake board. If indeed the LED blinks five times, the technician might have adjusted the braking strength, so the blade stops within 6 to 7 seconds, but further adjustment is necessary, which in this case would be to set the “stop detection” - easy operation that requires bridging some pins on the board.
?
If you do not have access to the electrical box to see if the LED is blinking, listen and time for how long the brake is buzzing after the blade reaches a complete stop- the buzzing ideally should stop within 1.5 seconds after the blade stops. If it buzzes for less than 1.5s or much longer, the “stop detection” has to be adjusted.
?
You have a much more complex saw, especially considering the PCS, but possibly (I could be totally wrong here) Felder added this additional functionality without redesigning everything else ( the brake board ), so that the above helps.?
?
Mariusz
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John, I had exactly the same issue with my Profil 45Z shaper. The shaper would run for one time, but then the motor won't spin at all until I turned the machine off and on.
The motorized fence/screen/spindle motor would work as expected.
My input voltage to the PP is 241-242V and the manufactured leg is also in that ballpark. What I eventually did is to move the manufactured leg to L2 and that solved my issue.
Did you check on which leg is manufactured leg is connected? [don't relay on the cable]
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imran
Bill Belanger
David P. Best