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Went to the Parade of Homes in Bossier/Shreveport today and was appalled at the build quality of kitchen cabinets I was seeing in $250/ sqft homes.? One of the houses was probably over $1M (the lot itself was $350K and the house was 4,500 sq ft.? They could have done better going to Home Depot.
Makes me think I need to come up with a plan to subcontract out my retirement house in two years rather than accepting this as the build quality for kitchen cabinets.? Tough to do though with our home site 3.5 hrs away and no shop up there yet.
Dave
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
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Build the shop first. I wish I had done it. My neighbor did that and it worked really well for him. In my case, since I built it myself, I learned so much more than what I knew when we built the house. Part of the learning was from buying the building construction book that is used at Purdue University.
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On Jun 25, 2022, at 9:10 PM, David Davies <myfinishingtouch@...> wrote: ? Went to the Parade of Homes in Bossier/Shreveport today and was appalled at the build quality of kitchen cabinets I was seeing in $250/ sqft homes.? One of the houses was probably over $1M (the lot itself was $350K and the house was 4,500 sq ft.? They could have done better going to Home Depot.
Makes me think I need to come up with a plan to subcontract out my retirement house in two years rather than accepting this as the build quality for kitchen cabinets.? Tough to do though with our home site 3.5 hrs away and no shop up there yet.
Dave
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868 
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Dave,
Builders maximizing their profits! ?Putting greed ahead of quality!
Wade
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On Jun 25, 2022, at 6:10 PM, David Davies <myfinishingtouch@...> wrote:
? Went to the Parade of Homes in Bossier/Shreveport today and was appalled at the build quality of kitchen cabinets I was seeing in $250/ sqft homes.? One of the houses was probably over $1M (the lot itself was $350K and the house was 4,500 sq ft.? They could have done better going to Home Depot.
Makes me think I need to come up with a plan to subcontract out my retirement house in two years rather than accepting this as the build quality for kitchen cabinets.? Tough to do though with our home site 3.5 hrs away and no shop up there yet.
Dave
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868 
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Side mount slides on a melamine box? Seriously? I don't think I could give that away much less charge good money for it. My standard is a dovetailed maple drawer box on Blum Tandem slides. It goes up from there to Legrabox. If the client balks at the price I'm probably not their guy. I can reduce cost a few ways, but that's not one of the ways I'd do it.
Jason Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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Is that really what that kind of build cost gets you? I wonder if that is just an expedient solution to the shortage of good cab hardware that the builder will then replace later for free.?
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Three different builders and three different Parade of Homes homes had the same build quality?cabinets.? Painted plywood...butt joints and side extension drawer glides (not full extension) Dave Davies
Is that really what that kind of build cost gets you? I wonder if that is just an expedient solution to the shortage of good cab hardware that the builder will then replace later for free.?
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
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I wouldn’t just focus on the kitchen cabs. ?The house may be sheathed with ThermoPly. ?Have a look at this: ??? ?There are lots of ways to cut costs, many of which reduce useful building life to a couple of decades. ?I recommend you rent trailer, get on site, build your shop first, then build the house.
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Three different builders and three different Parade of Homes homes had the same build quality?cabinets.? Painted plywood...butt joints and side extension drawer glides (not full extension) Dave Davies Is that really what that kind of build cost gets you? I wonder if that is just an expedient solution to the shortage of good cab hardware that the builder will then replace later for free.?
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
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Wow David, That some crappy stuff there, I guess the shear rating is zero. Its right down to mobilhome level of build maybe below.
What do you think about Zip Wall?
Glen
Alpine Moulding and Millwork Inc.
Mail: ?? P.O. Box 486
?????????? Murphys , CA. 95247 Shop: 441 Pennsylvania Gulch Road ????????? Murphys, CA. 95247
????????? 209-540-7501
LIC # 707507
I wouldn’t just focus on the kitchen cabs.? The house may be sheathed with ThermoPly.? Have a look at this: ??? ?There are lots of ways to cut costs, many of which reduce useful building life to a couple of decades.? I recommend you rent trailer, get on site, build your shop first, then build the house.
Three different builders and three different Parade of Homes homes had the same build quality?cabinets.? Painted plywood...butt joints and side extension drawer glides (not full extension) Dave Davies Is that really what that kind of build cost gets you? I wonder if that is just an expedient solution to the shortage of good cab hardware that the builder will then replace later for free.?
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
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I have been seeing this in Indianapolis area for the past 30 yrs. Most people do not have an idea of what quality is but they do know that they want a 5000 sq ft home with a movie theatre or a game room and std accouterments they see their friends have.
Since I immigrated to USA and have some experience with building I was routinely asked by newer immigrants to check out what they intend to buy. So I saw this all over. Cabinet HW is notoriously common to be down graded as most buyers are unfamiliar. First time I saw this my jaw dropped. Roller drawer slides similar to what I have on my hamper in closet used in kitchen and elsewhere but they did have granite countertops ?
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On Jun 27, 2022, at 12:28 AM, Glen Christensen <grchris1966@...> wrote: ? Wow David, That some crappy stuff there, I guess the shear rating is zero. Its right down to mobilhome level of build maybe below.
What do you think about Zip Wall?
Glen
Alpine Moulding and Millwork Inc.
Mail: ?? P.O. Box 486
?????????? Murphys , CA. 95247 Shop: 441 Pennsylvania Gulch Road ????????? Murphys, CA. 95247
????????? 209-540-7501
LIC # 707507
I wouldn’t just focus on the kitchen cabs.? The house may be sheathed with ThermoPly.? Have a look at this: ??? ?There are lots of ways to cut costs, many of which reduce useful building life to a couple of decades.? I recommend you rent trailer, get on site, build your shop first, then build the house.
Three different builders and three different Parade of Homes homes had the same build quality?cabinets.? Painted plywood...butt joints and side extension drawer glides (not full extension) Dave Davies Is that really what that kind of build cost gets you? I wonder if that is just an expedient solution to the shortage of good cab hardware that the builder will then replace later for free.?
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
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+ David B suggestion, when my Father inlaw retired from dairy farming he sold 50 acres with the farm house and dairy barns of 100+ Acres rented a trailer lived in for a 1-2yrs and said they really enjoyed doing it that way.
They are now at the point where that property is becoming too much to maintain and are thinking of splitting it into a few 21 acre (20 acre min to stay in the state forestry program) and putting a tiny house (glorified trailer) for spring summer fall and winter elsewhere.
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On Jun 27, 2022, at 12:09 AM, david@... via groups.io <david@...> wrote:
? I wouldn’t just focus on the kitchen cabs. ?The house may be sheathed with ThermoPly. ?Have a look at this: ??? ?There are lots of ways to cut costs, many of which reduce useful building life to a couple of decades. ?I recommend you rent trailer, get on site, build your shop first, then build the house.
Three different builders and three different Parade of Homes homes had the same build quality?cabinets.? Painted plywood...butt joints and side extension drawer glides (not full extension) Dave Davies Is that really what that kind of build cost gets you? I wonder if that is just an expedient solution to the shortage of good cab hardware that the builder will then replace later for free.?
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
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What’s more sad is that the vast Majority of consumers are unwilling to pay for quality. That and the insane “upgrade” prices the builders charge for things like dovetailed drawers etc. This consumer behavior is why Walmart is so huge. People want quaility but buy the cheapest. So sad.?
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That’s why my wife and I built our own home. The local building code is really quite lax* while construction costs are very high.
We saved an astonishing amount of money, although it's been a really astonishing amount of work. Most people have no idea of what constitutes quality or what to look for.?
I have never seen cabinetry that poor though. Here the standard is 16mm particle board, Tandembox or similar, foil wrapped doors. Glitzy, temporary.?
* Code allows 24” spacing on 2 x 4 studs with shear bracing only at the corners. Double top plate not required. Internal wall frames out of 70 x 35 mm material. No insulation.?
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Greg,
That is a good point. We built ours for same reason and our builder was the president of BAGI (Builder Association of Greater Indianapolis). It was comforting to know that a standard exists but was disappointed by what I found in it.
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On Jun 27, 2022, at 2:33 PM, Greg Quenneville <greg.quenneville@...> wrote: ? That’s why my wife and I built our own home. The local building code is really quite lax* while construction costs are very high.
We saved an astonishing amount of money, although it's been a really astonishing amount of work. Most people have no idea of what constitutes quality or what to look for.?
I have never seen cabinetry that poor though. Here the standard is 16mm particle board, Tandembox or similar, foil wrapped doors. Glitzy, temporary.?
* Code allows 24” spacing on 2 x 4 studs with shear bracing only at the corners. Double top plate not required. Internal wall frames out of 70 x 35 mm material. No insulation.?
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Greg,
No double top plates required?! ?Have they gone mad! ?Wow, that’s really cheap building if no double top plates are ever used. ?Just crazy!
Wade
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On Jun 27, 2022, at 11:33 AM, Greg Quenneville <greg.quenneville@...> wrote:
? That’s why my wife and I built our own home. The local building code is really quite lax* while construction costs are very high.
We saved an astonishing amount of money, although it's been a really astonishing amount of work. Most people have no idea of what constitutes quality or what to look for.?
I have never seen cabinetry that poor though. Here the standard is 16mm particle board, Tandembox or similar, foil wrapped doors. Glitzy, temporary.?
* Code allows 24” spacing on 2 x 4 studs with shear bracing only at the corners. Double top plate not required. Internal wall frames out of 70 x 35 mm material. No insulation.?
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Greg,
I guess the builders are looking forward to tearing down the “temporary housing” and re-using the lot in the future. ?That’s the only reason for the shoddy quality other than a complete lack of respect for the building profession or the buyer.
We had a real professional builder build our new house and shop. ?I was on site each and every day and completely satisfied with them and the process….other than being over the initial estimate by 30-40%. ?It really wan’t his fault, we upgraded doors, floors, cabinets, appliances, etc. and I didn’t look carefully enough at what he had in mind when he prepared the estimate. ?Good stuff, just not what I wanted for my final house!
Dave Dave Woodruff 190 Morton Ave. Athens, GA 30605 706-614-7771
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On Jun 27, 2022, at 2:33 PM, Greg Quenneville <greg.quenneville@...> wrote:
? That’s why my wife and I built our own home. The local building code is really quite lax* while construction costs are very high.
We saved an astonishing amount of money, although it's been a really astonishing amount of work. Most people have no idea of what constitutes quality or what to look for.?
I have never seen cabinetry that poor though. Here the standard is 16mm particle board, Tandembox or similar, foil wrapped doors. Glitzy, temporary.?
* Code allows 24” spacing on 2 x 4 studs with shear bracing only at the corners. Double top plate not required. Internal wall frames out of 70 x 35 mm material. No insulation.?
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We used a builder friend's licence to actually build it ourselves. ICF walls, got a couple of carpenters in to help frame the interior and do the roof. They said it was the first proper framing job they were ever asked to do. We used about 60% more wood than the code allowed. Our engineer came to sign off on the framing and laughed. With delight. I milled about 3500 bft of western red cedar and oak for the doors, casings, shutters, stairs etc.?
I bought Fine Homebuilding for years, and have a shelf full of architecture and building books. I couldn’t reconcile any of that with the expedient crap I see here. The trade even admits the goal is to last the life of the mortgage.?
We don’t get snow, and no tornadoes. No frost. We don’t see much structural failure, but the average home is a noisy, flimsy, unsophisticated yet expensive cynical real estate gambit for buyers who are only ever taught location-location-location.
Oddly, really nice bathrooms though.?
Greg
Oh…custom construction costs here start at around $3000 AUD/m3 which is …thinking…about $220 ft2. But that includes porches and garage…everything under roof.?
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It’s easy to be dismissive of crappy construction, but it’s also a huge industry that provides gainful employment for millions of people and makes home ownership accessible to millions of people that could never afford what many FOG members would consider “quality”. It’s also an industry that makes some super-rich, and the merely rich somewhat richer ?(wall-street, large national building company execs, private equity firms) ?Same principle applies to Walmart. ?Perhaps Walmart consumers are not sufficiently discriminating for some of us,?but about 100 million people can own stuff today (of second rate quality) that two generations ago they wouldn’t have been able to own at all. That’s not all bad.?
On a slight tangent, how about the fact that so many financially well off people who can afford quality have such terrible taste!? ?I see a lot $5m homes that you couldn’t pay me to live in!
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Yes Mark, all true. The average person here now will be lucky to ever afford a home of whatever quality level. My objection is to what builders do on even a high dollar custom build. As David mentioned, there are some awfully suspect products and practices being used. Cardboard cladding is a new low. What buyers don’t see is where the problems lie.?
I absolutely agree that money does not equal taste. I too have seen some high dollar builds that belong on a bombing range.?
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What blows my mind here is that I can order custom sized, dovetailed, hard maple, milled for undermount, drawer boxes for less than the cost of the materials to make melamine drawer boxes, not including labor.?
I suspect there's several factors going on here, everything from uninformed buyers, to buyers who own a very large home who want the fancy counter tops and paver driveway, but otherwise can't afford to furnish their large home with decent quality components. Some of these homes have three kitchens (one on each level). Quantity over quality.?
That being said, let's not forget that in addition to materials cost going through the roof, that labor is ferociously expensive, if you can find it. I received a quote to remove/replace the asphalt roof shingles on my modest 2 bedroom home, the (wholesale, contractor) price was in the ballpark of what a modest bathroom gut/remodel would cost at the beginning of my career.?
All that being said, I suspect these construction labor costs will become the new normal. We (the trades) lost a lot of people in 2007-2008, and I keep hearing that the average age of many licensed trades workers are in the 50s and 60s, which jives with my experience of seeing a lot of white- and silver- hair when my plumbers and electricians are on-site. I suspect that we have a generation or so to build back the labor pool, in the mean time I expect there will be a lot of folks experiencing some serious sticker shock when they see how expensive home improvement projects have become, never mind that many folks lack the basic skills to affect lasting, durable home repairs themselves.?
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Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
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If I might stir the pot somewhat here. I recently went to see a friends kitchen and she has contractor built cabinets with nailed together drawers that were made in the late fifties or early sixties. The slides are wood.? The drawers are still functional, a few of the drawers sides are just starting to pull away from the drawer fronts however. The kitchen has had a hard life but it's basically still working. Years ago I visited a Greene and Greene home in Berkeley and the cabinetry was amazing, wood drawer slides all working with ease. I build all my cabinets with solid wood dovetail drawers and tandem slides as this is sort of what is expected now. Even big box stores have cabinets with dovetail solid wood drawers. I guess my point is that there are many ways to put drawers together. I think dovetails are overkill actually. Dowels or biscuits can be very strong and hopefully the white painted drawer boxes shown above were put together with dowels at least. I will a agree that it's one cheap looking drawer system with the white drawers and side mount slides. But I don't really mind side mount slides if they are good ones. I've built many kitchens that are still working today with Accuride side mounts. Tandem slides do have a few plastic parts and it does worry me, but I've yet to have a call back.? When we first started building kitchens, those white powder coated Blum, non ball bearing slides were the norm. I'm glad those are a thing of the past. Times have changed, things have gotten better, it's not that hard to make drawers that last. But it is sad that so many that are shopping for new homes just look at the square footage and how many sliding barn doors there are. lol ?? Tom Ruth
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imran
Jason Holtz
David P. Best
Joe Jensen
Tom Gensmer