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Okay,
You all are sick of me and the incessant questions.
Now that I have the kappa instead of the KF, I still need a shaper.? ?My space is limited, but by selling off my router table rig with an LS fence I will have space for either a 900z or a 700z with the smallest sliders for each.
Logic is a beast.? I was great with a KF700, so why not a F700z?? I want Power Drive 2 for both height and tilt.??
Both have the option.?
F900z pluses as I see them:
Bigger tooling possible
Larger footprint
Matching colors ?
F700z pluses as I see them:
Spindles are 1/3 the price
Smaller footprint is a big plus in a 400sqft shop
Still has 7.5hp option
Less money makes Aigner fences easier to budget.
What do all of you think?
I have very little invested in tooling at the moment.
I have a comatic DC40 for it already.
I am open to all thoughts and ideas!!!
PK?
PKwoodworking
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Hi PK!?
Thank you very much for posting this question. I recently received my KF700, and while I love it I can see the utility of eventually adding a supplemental, free-standing shaper (if/when I get more shop space some day), and would be in a similar position in terms of debating between 700/900. For reference, my machine has the 7.5hp 3ph motor package and I have yet to strain the shaper motor.?
One thing I am noticing is that while the 900 has a larger table opening, both shapers utilize the same hood, restricting tooling to <230mm. Am I interpreting this correctly??
Does the 900 allow for taller spindles??
This is more an admonishment for myself than for you, but I have to keep catching myself in terms of comparing what I "need" to "aspirational" machines, as every time I make a mental upgrade, there's yet another tier to look at...... I suspect that, should I ever get a free-standing shaper, it would likely be a F700Z, but I'm terribly curious to hear what the collective knowledge of this group recommends....
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
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Tom,
I feel you and I are of the same mindset.
Would I ever buy tooling beyond 8" diameter?
PK
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I have a never used 700z? from 2003 with 7.5 hp small slider electric raise and lower. it has all three spindles and both standard fence and Aigner fence. I live in Pennsylvania cell no. 610 655 5833.??
-----Original Message-----
From: PK <paul.kellymjc@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, Jul 23, 2021 4:56 pm
Subject: [FOG] Shaper talk F700z vs. F900z
Okay,
You all are sick of me and the incessant questions.
Now that I have the kappa instead of the KF, I still need a shaper.? ?My space is limited, but by selling off my router table rig with an LS fence I will have space for either a 900z or a 700z with the smallest sliders for each.
Logic is a beast.? I was great with a KF700, so why not a F700z?? I want Power Drive 2 for both height and tilt.??
Both have the option.?
F900z pluses as I see them:
Bigger tooling possible
Larger footprint
Matching colors ?
F700z pluses as I see them:
Spindles are 1/3 the price
Smaller footprint is a big plus in a 400sqft shop
Still has 7.5hp option
Less money makes Aigner fences easier to budget.
What do all of you think?
I have very little invested in tooling at the moment.
I have a comatic DC40 for it already.
I am open to all thoughts and ideas!!!
PK?
PKwoodworking
|
There are two fairly significant differences: the F900Z has an optional 320mm opening, so if you'll be doing , say, large raised panel elements, that would be a factor. Also, there's an option for electronic motor speed control vs. changing the belt position on the spindle, a very nice feature. That said, my F700Z (7.5HP, 3-phase) with DC40 has served me well in every respect. The so-called Smart Stand for the CoMatic, plus the height gauge, are good investments in every way. By the by, you can open up the motor electronics module on the DC40 and swop?wires around to convert it from?230V / 3 phase to regular 230V to?120 V?- ShopGear's guy who knows this stuff is on at the AWFS stand and will be happy to explain to anyone. Please consider: The Aigner fence is worth every penny, though it takes a lot of those to get one ;-) It's indeed more affordable in total with the F700Z and for me, it's a must- have.. Also keep in mind that the tooling quickly adds up to a very large sum, so another budget consideration, along with your space constraint, favoring the 700. Speaking of aspirational, the Martin guy had to shoo me away from the T27 as I was about to rust the table by drooling all over it... Good luck with whatever you finally decide, regards Eric
Tom,
I feel you and I are of the same mindset.
Would I ever buy tooling beyond 8" diameter?
PK
|
The spindle trunions on the two machines are totally different. ?Here is my understanding of how this translates into practical terms.
The 700 has what I consider a light weight trunion and spindle design suitable for most hobby work. ?The size and mass of the tooling this trunion and spindle can safely support is restricted, in maximum diameter, total spindle height and the opening in the cast iron top. ?I would consider this machine suitable for most type of furniture and cabinet work, but not suitable for large cutter stacks used in Tilt/Turn window or Lift/Slide door work. ?
The 900 has a significantly more robust trunion and spindle with higher quality bearings for continuous duty work and support of much the much taller and heavy tooling packages required for window/door and HD millwork applications. ?The 900 spindle is 5 speed versus the 4 speed on the 700. ?These two factors contribute to the extra cost for the 900 spindle. ?Unless Felder has changed things, the spindle lock for the 900 is a lever outside the cabinet for convenience, whereas the 700 spindle lock is inside the machine chassis with a plunge-type actuator that is less convenient to use. ?The 900 is also available with a VFD driven motor that supports true variable speed. ?The clutter and clearance for tooling lowered into the body of the machine chassis is significantly bigger on the 900 than the 700. ?I have posted details on the 900 shaper spindle cavity here?, and although I can¡¯t provide specifics on the 700 spindle cavity, it is certainly more restrictive. ?The extra width of the 900 cast iron top would make using longer Aigner fence plates possible.
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Okay,
You all are sick of me and the incessant questions.
Now that I have the kappa instead of the KF, I still need a shaper.? ?My space is limited, but by selling off my router table rig with an LS fence I will have space for either a 900z or a 700z with the smallest sliders for each.
Logic is a beast.? I was great with a KF700, so why not a F700z?? I want Power Drive 2 for both height and tilt.??
Both have the option.?
F900z pluses as I see them:
Bigger tooling possible
Larger footprint
Matching colors ?
F700z pluses as I see them:
Spindles are 1/3 the price
Smaller footprint is a big plus in a 400sqft shop
Still has 7.5hp option
Less money makes Aigner fences easier to budget.
What do all of you think?
I have very little invested in tooling at the moment.
I have a comatic DC40 for it already.
I am open to all thoughts and ideas!!!
PK?
PKwoodworking
|
I think the 900 series is maybe the best mid size sliding table shaper on the market.? I don't know why Felder hobbled it with the same fence.? The fence on my T130 is much better.? Larger, stronger, and with a counter on each side for setting.? A 900 with
that fence or one from an old martin shaper would be ideal.? I have a T130 slider but the cast iron sliding table is not nearly as nice or handy as the Felder.? I leveled the table with the fixed and use the T130 for anything using a feeder and my old F7 when
I want a slider.? The smaller table opening is restricting when tilting but the upside is that the sliding table runs closer to the spindle so the add on tenon table is rarely needed.? I like the combination of the two machines but I have the room.? Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
There are two fairly significant differences: the F900Z has an optional 320mm opening, so if you'll be doing , say, large raised panel elements, that would be a factor. Also, there's an option for electronic motor speed control vs. changing the
belt position on the spindle, a very nice feature.
That said, my F700Z (7.5HP, 3-phase) with DC40 has served me well in every respect. The so-called Smart Stand for the CoMatic, plus the height gauge, are good investments in every way. By the by, you can open up the motor electronics module on the DC40
and swop?wires around to convert it from?230V / 3 phase to regular 230V to?120 V?- ShopGear's guy who knows this stuff is on at the AWFS stand and will be happy to explain to anyone.
Please consider: The Aigner fence is worth every penny, though it takes a lot of those to get one ;-) It's indeed more affordable in total with the F700Z and for me, it's a must- have.. Also keep in mind that the tooling quickly adds up to a very large
sum, so another budget consideration, along with your space constraint, favoring the 700.
Speaking of aspirational, the Martin guy had to shoo me away from the T27 as I was about to rust the table by drooling all over it...
Good luck with whatever you finally decide, regards
Eric
Tom,
I feel you and I are of the same mindset.
Would I ever buy tooling beyond 8" diameter?
PK
|
Felder offers the 900 with a substantially better fence and hood - it¡¯s the Profil 45 Z ?(non-xMotion model, which is what I own). ?Terrific mid-sized machine when equipped with the Aigner fence plates. ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? 
The fence has motorized positioning with a DRO.
And has a flip up/back/over tilt-away system that makes it super simple to get the entire hood elevated for tooling changes or flipped over a full 180-degrees to clear the top of any obstruction. ?
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jul 23, 2021, at 5:52 PM, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
I think the 900 series is maybe the best mid size sliding table shaper on the market.? I don't know why Felder hobbled it with the same fence.? The fence on my T130 is much better.? Larger, stronger, and with a counter on each side for setting.? A 900 with
that fence or one from an old martin shaper would be ideal.? I have a T130 slider but the cast iron sliding table is not nearly as nice or handy as the Felder.? I leveled the table with the fixed and use the T130 for anything using a feeder and my old F7 when
I want a slider.? The smaller table opening is restricting when tilting but the upside is that the sliding table runs closer to the spindle so the add on tenon table is rarely needed.? I like the combination of the two machines but I have the room.? Dave
There are two fairly significant differences: the F900Z has an optional 320mm opening, so if you'll be doing , say, large raised panel elements, that would be a factor. Also, there's an option for electronic motor speed control vs. changing the
belt position on the spindle, a very nice feature.
That said, my F700Z (7.5HP, 3-phase) with DC40 has served me well in every respect. The so-called Smart Stand for the CoMatic, plus the height gauge, are good investments in every way. By the by, you can open up the motor electronics module on the DC40
and swop?wires around to convert it from?230V / 3 phase to regular 230V to?120 V?- ShopGear's guy who knows this stuff is on at the AWFS stand and will be happy to explain to anyone.
Please consider: The Aigner fence is worth every penny, though it takes a lot of those to get one ;-) It's indeed more affordable in total with the F700Z and for me, it's a must- have.. Also keep in mind that the tooling quickly adds up to a very large
sum, so another budget consideration, along with your space constraint, favoring the 700.
Speaking of aspirational, the Martin guy had to shoo me away from the T27 as I was about to rust the table by drooling all over it...
Good luck with whatever you finally decide, regards
Eric
Tom,
I feel you and I are of the same mindset.
Would I ever buy tooling beyond 8" diameter?
PK
|
There you go.? Just need two upgrades rather than one.? What is the pricing upcharge for the 45 vs the 900 ?? I had thought the Format was a bigger machine.? Nice.? Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Felder offers the 900 with a substantially better fence and hood - it¡¯s the Profil 45 Z ?(non-xMotion model, which is what I own). ?Terrific mid-sized machine when equipped with the Aigner
fence plates. ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? 
The fence has motorized positioning with a DRO.
And has a flip up/back/over tilt-away system that makes it super simple to get the entire hood elevated for tooling changes or flipped over a full 180-degrees to clear the top of any obstruction. ?
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
On Jul 23, 2021, at 5:52 PM, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
I think the 900 series is maybe the best mid size sliding table shaper on the market.? I don't know why Felder hobbled it with the same fence.? The fence on my T130 is much better.?
Larger, stronger, and with a counter on each side for setting.? A 900 with that fence or one from an old martin shaper would be ideal.? I have a T130 slider but the cast iron sliding table is not nearly as nice or handy as the Felder.? I leveled the table
with the fixed and use the T130 for anything using a feeder and my old F7 when I want a slider.? The smaller table opening is restricting when tilting but the upside is that the sliding table runs closer to the spindle so the add on tenon table is rarely needed.?
I like the combination of the two machines but I have the room.? Dave
There are two fairly significant differences: the F900Z has an optional 320mm opening, so if you'll be doing , say, large raised panel elements, that would be a factor. Also, there's an option for electronic motor speed control vs. changing
the belt position on the spindle, a very nice feature.
That said, my F700Z (7.5HP, 3-phase) with DC40 has served me well in every respect. The so-called Smart Stand for the CoMatic, plus the height gauge, are good investments in every way. By the by, you can open up the motor electronics module on
the DC40 and swop?wires around to convert it from?230V / 3 phase to regular 230V to?120 V?- ShopGear's guy who knows this stuff is on at the AWFS stand and will be happy to explain to anyone.
Please consider: The Aigner fence is worth every penny, though it takes a lot of those to get one ;-) It's indeed more affordable in total with the F700Z and for me, it's a must- have.. Also keep in mind that the tooling quickly adds up to a very
large sum, so another budget consideration, along with your space constraint, favoring the 700.
Speaking of aspirational, the Martin guy had to shoo me away from the T27 as I was about to rust the table by drooling all over it...
Good luck with whatever you finally decide, regards
Eric
Tom,
I feel you and I are of the same mindset.
Would I ever buy tooling beyond 8" diameter?
PK
|
I am sure there is a method to the madness here...
I feel an upsell coming my way!!!
PK
|
David Best,
Thank you very much for your insight regarding the 700 vs. 900. It's easy to look at the specs in the catalog and see things like table opening size, etc, but it's really helpful to put those specs in the context of "If you plan on performing X operation, you'll be well-served with a 700-series, but if you plan on performing Y tasks, then you'll want the 900".?
I suspect it goes without saying that we'd all want the best of everything, but with financial resources being finite, it's really helpful to know what is "good enough", when going overboard might preclude another machine altogether, or seriously delay growth.?
In general terms, are the internals of the Format 4 machines essentially 900-series internals, or are they another level higher in terms of motors, trunions, etc...??
+1 on the Aigner fences. The fences themselves are great, plus there's a slew of accessories that expand on the basic functionality.?
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
|
In general terms, are the internals of the Format 4 machines essentially 900-series internals, or are they another level higher in terms of motors, trunions, etc¡?
Yes, in general that¡¯s true, but it depends a lot on the specific machine. ? Certainly in the sliding-table shapers, the Format-4 versions are souped-up 900-series machines. ? Felder might quibble that it¡¯s the other way around, but the guts are the same. ?
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
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I went through this exercise couple of years ago.
if you can live with K700 saw, then you can live with F700 spindle moulder?
If you like 950 saw and it suited your line of work, F900 is probably better match.
now you have a Fromat Kappa. I wouldnt want to go below F900... F900 should be the minimum/starting point. why not Profil 45? just think about the repeatability and the colour match!?
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I looked really hard when considering an upgrade to my f700z. I loved that machine and Brian Lamb helped me make it twice as good with a dro fence modification - I would suggest that for anybody that has analog adjustment. I never had a problem with the 700 series not performing though, it was really ease of switching setups back and forth which is a big issue in my shop workflow of short runs and one-offs.??
My research skipped me right past the 900 series and toward the profil45. There's also a profil92 out now that has a lot of great features above the profil45 (at upwards of double the price, too).?
If one were to fully tool up and accessorize with the aigner catalog, macs clamps, and other fun - I mean necessary -? things, its perfectly reasonably that budget will look like $30k or more, whether it gets spent now or later. So if you consider the full accounted cost of the system, sometimes the machine cost itself doesn't seem so much.?
I do believe there's a pretty established "you get what you pay for" in shapers without a lot of gimmicky feature sets in the market across manufacturers. At the end of the day you are paying for weight of build, tolerance of mechanisms, power, and auxiliary electronic controls. How much do you want to buy? Lol.
Final thought: I know there's a used 900 or profil45 out there every now and again - if you arent sure what you need it may just make sense to buy a good deal first then you can figure out what features you need when it's time to buy your forever machine.
I went through this exercise couple of years ago.
if you can live with K700 saw, then you can live with F700 spindle moulder?
If you like 950 saw and it suited your line of work, F900 is probably better match.
now you have a Fromat Kappa. I wouldnt want to go below F900... F900 should be the minimum/starting point. why not Profil 45? just think about the repeatability and the colour match!?
|
Brett,
Both David and yourself make very strong arguments.? ?I do want to by a lifetime machine.
As a bonus, it seems as you move up the line, optional stuff becomes standard and softens the blow somewhat.
What are your opinions on variable speed?? Is that something to break, or an amazing feature?? Or is 5 speeds fine?
X-motion is more obviously, but the programmability seems really awesome and time saving?!? Anyone have thoughts on that?
Again TIA
PK
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I love variable speed as an option. But I don't find it imperative as many common cutters are in certain diameter ranges and rpms can remain consistent enough to manage without a lot of belt move nuisance. If staying budget friendly, no to vfd. If its the machine you will never regret paying for upfront, probably will say to your family it was worth the cost 10 years down the line.
Brett,
Both David and yourself make very strong arguments.? ?I do want to by a lifetime machine.
As a bonus, it seems as you move up the line, optional stuff becomes standard and softens the blow somewhat.
What are your opinions on variable speed?? Is that something to break, or an amazing feature?? Or is 5 speeds fine?
X-motion is more obviously, but the programmability seems really awesome and time saving?!? Anyone have thoughts on that?
Again TIA
PK
|
when I was in the market, my Felder sales showed me changing of spindles on the 700 is easier than 900.?
I have variable speed and progammability on my SCM spindle moulder (SCM TI145EP), I think the programmability is really a time saver and you never have to wind it back/forward because you missed a digit/half/quarter of a digit. if you missed one piece then you have to manually reset your spindle moulder it really takes up valuable time, I am in my shop to make $$ not there to set machines, I can only spend 90 minutes a day in my shop because I have a daytime job, every second counts.
About the variable speed...? a lot of cutters have wide range of acceptance speed, you can pretty much stay on the same belt for a lot of times (for most cuts), to me I tend to think if its a lifetime machine, the upfront cost may seem a bit but over the lift of the machine its not that much.? if you spend a lot of time on the SM, have all sorts of cutters and change them frequently then you definitely need variable speed, I dont change the speed on my that often to justify the cost but I still have it because I personally hated changing belt.?
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PK
Tom Gensmer
David P. Best
Albert Lee