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I don't build many kitchens, but I do it on occasion if it's something interesting. Last fall I built and installed a modern, frameless box, full overlay slab doors, stainless Blum Legrabox drawers, edge pulls etc. The project was in rift white oak with a light white stain. The doors and drawer fronts, finished end panels were all done in Columbia's Europly. This was a custom run, 10 sheets all sequentially laid up by them. $200/sheet plywood, 15 layers void free birch core. You'd think it would be bullet proof. The cabinets were installed in September/October here in Minneapolis last year-which was uncommonly warm and humid. Everything went in looked great.
Fast forward 6 months, I get a call to come adjust some hinges. I go over and start adjusting thing, and can't get some corners to line up right. I took a couple doors off and laid them on the stone counter and they are totally twisted, not cupped or bowed. Rocking corner to corner over 1/4" I checked a few more of the worst offenders and the situation is the same. These are not big doors either. The first ones I checked are 14"x20". It's been winter here, and this is an old house with radiator heat and no easy way to add humidity in the winter, especially when the house was empty for 8 weeks.
I contacted my sales rep at Metro Hardwoods and explained the situation. He responds like he's heard it before, and knows what Columbia's line will be. Never make doors out of veneer core material. I asked him why that's not in the product literature, he's got no answer for that. I ask him why he doesn't ask somebody ordering $2k worth of custom plywood if it's for doors. Not their policy to ask about use. I call the Columbia rep for the region and have a good conversation. I learn the AWI standards manual does specify veneer core shouldn't be used for doors, only MDF core. Well I've never read that or heard it before. He says they don't say don't build a boat with it either...but the lit says excellent results for furniture, cabinetry, and millwork. Sounds awful misleading to me. In the end we agree it's a moisture issue, but who's to say where in the process it occurred. Could have been in the core manufacturing, veneer application, finishing, or after it was installed in the house. No way to know. Columbia would like to see them hang there until this summer when conditions return to warm and humid like when the installation happened to see if they straighten out. If they replace material, they'd only want to do it in MDF core. Of course that's hard to do since the whole job is grain matched. The drawer fronts are fine since they're attached to something as are the end panels.
My customer is resistant to this idea, because if the doors straighten out in summer, only to twist again in winter that's not a solution. Finding a way to humidify their house either is also not on the table since they often travel in the winter. The easy ways are all active daily filling of something. Uggh. Anybody have any wisdom?
Thanks
Jason
--
Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
Jason, ? Sorry to hear that. I do not have any wisdom to share but would like to know if the birch core is showing on the ends or did they include solid wood at the perimeter prior to veneering? ? Imran ?
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From: [email protected] On Behalf Of Jason Holtz Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2021 11:10 PM To: [email protected]Subject: [FOG] slab door warpage ? I don't build many kitchens, but I do it on occasion if it's something interesting. Last fall I built and installed a modern, frameless box, full overlay slab doors, stainless Blum Legrabox drawers, edge pulls etc. The project was in rift white oak with a light white stain. The doors and drawer fronts, finished end panels were all done in Columbia's Europly. This was a custom run, 10 sheets all sequentially laid up by them. $200/sheet plywood, 15 layers void free birch core. You'd think it would be bullet proof. The cabinets were installed in September/October here in Minneapolis last year-which was uncommonly warm and humid. Everything went in looked great.
Fast forward 6 months, I get a call to come adjust some hinges. I go over and start adjusting thing, and can't get some corners to line up right. I took a couple doors off and laid them on the stone counter and they are totally twisted, not cupped or bowed. Rocking corner to corner over 1/4" I checked a few more of the worst offenders and the situation is the same. These are not big doors either. The first ones I checked are 14"x20". It's been winter here, and this is an old house with radiator heat and no easy way to add humidity in the winter, especially when the house was empty for 8 weeks.
I contacted my sales rep at Metro Hardwoods and explained the situation. He responds like he's heard it before, and knows what Columbia's line will be. Never make doors out of veneer core material. I asked him why that's not in the product literature, he's got no answer for that. I ask him why he doesn't ask somebody ordering $2k worth of custom plywood if it's for doors. Not their policy to ask about use. I call the Columbia rep for the region and have a good conversation. I learn the AWI standards manual does specify veneer core shouldn't be used for doors, only MDF core. Well I've never read that or heard it before. He says they don't say don't build a boat with it either...but the lit says excellent results for furniture, cabinetry, and millwork. Sounds awful misleading to me. In the end we agree it's a moisture issue, but who's to say where in the process it occurred. Could have been in the core manufacturing, veneer application, finishing, or after it was installed in the house. No way to know. Columbia would like to see them hang there until this summer when conditions return to warm and humid like when the installation happened to see if they straighten out. If they replace material, they'd only want to do it in MDF core. Of course that's hard to do since the whole job is grain matched. The drawer fronts are fine since they're attached to something as are the end panels.
My customer is resistant to this idea, because if the doors straighten out in summer, only to twist again in winter that's not a solution. Finding a way to humidify their house either is also not on the table since they often travel in the winter. The easy ways are all active daily filling of something. Uggh. Anybody have any wisdom?
Thanks
Jason
--
Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
Sounds like a tough one. I have no wisdom but a few thoughts.?
Wood moves as we all know, and that even affects plywood as I pull sheets of the rack and see the wrap age. Seems like some sheets are better than others. BB is void less but still can warp. MDF sacrifices strength for moisture stability and easy painting.?
Seems like a sum of multiple issues all adding up. Material selection and the inherent nature of wood, bad literature and specs, and a moisture control as bad as my garage.?
In my practice I go to town with literature about warping. It’s not something I guarantee against in my express warranty and really hammer home the humidity issues. That is unless they want to pay and also want to hear the lecture on more or less warp prone
materials. I specify in warranty what is considered normal versus excessive warpage. Keep your house evenly humidified and things will be better, don’t, and things will be worse. Expect glue lines to crack and be happy when they don’t. If you want fake wood
that doesn’t move or last buy IKEA and plastic.?
You might be able to get some free materials to make it right and pay with lost labor and count it as an expensive lesson learned. Have to consider if that cost exceeds potential reputation damage from not. It’s a tough one...
Michael Tagge
Built Custom Carpentry?
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I don't build many kitchens, but I do it on occasion if it's something interesting. Last fall I built and installed a modern, frameless box, full overlay slab doors, stainless Blum Legrabox drawers, edge pulls etc. The project was in rift white oak with
a light white stain. The doors and drawer fronts, finished end panels were all done in Columbia's Europly. This was a custom run, 10 sheets all sequentially laid up by them. $200/sheet plywood, 15 layers void free birch core. You'd think it would be bullet
proof. The cabinets were installed in September/October here in Minneapolis last year-which was uncommonly warm and humid. Everything went in looked great.
Fast forward 6 months, I get a call to come adjust some hinges. I go over and start adjusting thing, and can't get some corners to line up right. I took a couple doors off and laid them on the stone counter and they are totally twisted, not cupped or bowed.
Rocking corner to corner over 1/4" I checked a few more of the worst offenders and the situation is the same. These are not big doors either. The first ones I checked are 14"x20". It's been winter here, and this is an old house with radiator heat and no easy
way to add humidity in the winter, especially when the house was empty for 8 weeks.
I contacted my sales rep at Metro Hardwoods and explained the situation. He responds like he's heard it before, and knows what Columbia's line will be. Never make doors out of veneer core material. I asked him why that's not in the product literature, he's
got no answer for that. I ask him why he doesn't ask somebody ordering $2k worth of custom plywood if it's for doors. Not their policy to ask about use. I call the Columbia rep for the region and have a good conversation. I learn the AWI standards manual does
specify veneer core shouldn't be used for doors, only MDF core. Well I've never read that or heard it before. He says they don't say don't build a boat with it either...but the lit says excellent results for furniture, cabinetry, and millwork. Sounds awful
misleading to me. In the end we agree it's a moisture issue, but who's to say where in the process it occurred. Could have been in the core manufacturing, veneer application, finishing, or after it was installed in the house. No way to know. Columbia would
like to see them hang there until this summer when conditions return to warm and humid like when the installation happened to see if they straighten out. If they replace material, they'd only want to do it in MDF core. Of course that's hard to do since the
whole job is grain matched. The drawer fronts are fine since they're attached to something as are the end panels.
My customer is resistant to this idea, because if the doors straighten out in summer, only to twist again in winter that's not a solution. Finding a way to humidify their house either is also not on the table since they often travel in the winter. The easy
ways are all active daily filling of something. Uggh. Anybody have any wisdom?
Thanks
Jason
--
Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
Hi Jason,
Man, I feel for you. ?I ran into the same thing about 10 years ago. ?I don’t usually do full overlay slab doors as most of my clients want more traditional construction. ?But I took on a job involving a complete esthetic remodel of a mid-century modern home, where everything had been spray painted the same flat beige - including the baseboards, trim, cabinets, walls, ceilings, etc. ?For this part of the job (entertainment center wall in the living room) I used ApplyPly (15 layer birch, zero voids) which figured was going to be totally bomb proof. ?I hand selected the quilted and book-matched walnut veneer. ?States Industries (who makes the ApplePly) did the veneering work at an upcharge of $250 per sheet, but didn’t say a thing about putting veneer over ApplePly for what they knew was slab door and drawer fronts. ?I did the layout of the veneer myself at their manufacturing plant in southern Oregon. ?The veneering was done in July (hot and dry here), and they were sealed both sides and then hand finished with polymerized tung oil by Sutherland - which is my favorite “oiled look” finish - far superior to Osmo IMO but more time to apply (4 coats).
By the following January (after 3 months of PNW drizzle) the slabs all twisted out of shape - just like you describe. ?States said “you should know better than to use plywood for slab doors.” ?I ended up re-installing the entire set of doors and drawer fronts, this time over 5/8 MDF with 1/16” clear maple banding applied both sides by States Industries, then the new quilted walnut veneer vacuum bagged in my shop. ?States gratiously provided the banded MDF (thank you very F***ing much), but I ate the cost of the veneer (about $700) plus the fab and re-install labor. ?Took me an entire week to re-do the job not including the phone calls, trips to the veneer supplier, etc. ?Lesson learned: ?“We don’t do slab doors and drawers - period - go to Ikea if that’s what you want."
So I feel for you. ?I don’t have any magic wand suggestions to offer, other than to chalk it up as an expensive learning experience. ?I think you’re faced with having to make a decision as to how much you want to battle with Columbia versus just replace it all and get on with your life. ?Putting in a humidifier is not something I would not even consider.
This is after the re-install (lousy photo).
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
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On Apr 6, 2021, at 8:09 PM, Jason Holtz < jholtzy@...> wrote:
I don't build many kitchens, but I do it on occasion if it's something interesting. Last fall I built and installed a modern, frameless box, full overlay slab doors, stainless Blum Legrabox drawers, edge pulls etc. The project was in rift white oak with a light white stain. The doors and drawer fronts, finished end panels were all done in Columbia's Europly. This was a custom run, 10 sheets all sequentially laid up by them. $200/sheet plywood, 15 layers void free birch core. You'd think it would be bullet proof. The cabinets were installed in September/October here in Minneapolis last year-which was uncommonly warm and humid. Everything went in looked great.
Fast forward 6 months, I get a call to come adjust some hinges. I go over and start adjusting thing, and can't get some corners to line up right. I took a couple doors off and laid them on the stone counter and they are totally twisted, not cupped or bowed. Rocking corner to corner over 1/4" I checked a few more of the worst offenders and the situation is the same. These are not big doors either. The first ones I checked are 14"x20". It's been winter here, and this is an old house with radiator heat and no easy way to add humidity in the winter, especially when the house was empty for 8 weeks.
I contacted my sales rep at Metro Hardwoods and explained the situation. He responds like he's heard it before, and knows what Columbia's line will be. Never make doors out of veneer core material. I asked him why that's not in the product literature, he's got no answer for that. I ask him why he doesn't ask somebody ordering $2k worth of custom plywood if it's for doors. Not their policy to ask about use. I call the Columbia rep for the region and have a good conversation. I learn the AWI standards manual does specify veneer core shouldn't be used for doors, only MDF core. Well I've never read that or heard it before. He says they don't say don't build a boat with it either...but the lit says excellent results for furniture, cabinetry, and millwork. Sounds awful misleading to me. In the end we agree it's a moisture issue, but who's to say where in the process it occurred. Could have been in the core manufacturing, veneer application, finishing, or after it was installed in the house. No way to know. Columbia would like to see them hang there until this summer when conditions return to warm and humid like when the installation happened to see if they straighten out. If they replace material, they'd only want to do it in MDF core. Of course that's hard to do since the whole job is grain matched. The drawer fronts are fine since they're attached to something as are the end panels.
My customer is resistant to this idea, because if the doors straighten out in summer, only to twist again in winter that's not a solution. Finding a way to humidify their house either is also not on the table since they often travel in the winter. The easy ways are all active daily filling of something. Uggh. Anybody have any wisdom?
Thanks
Jason
--
Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
I have to fix warped stuff all the time, sometimes new sometimes from antiquity. Jason, I'm sorry. My best suggestion to save the set is to kerf the backs of the doors until you get them within tolerance, fill the cracks, and conceal with a cover sheet of veneer. If you can be very clever use the thinnest kerfs you can and follow grain lines that might allow for concealing without the veneer cover. If you have a CNC machine, you can pocket the inside back out in stages and leave the edgebanding and hinge holes intact and backfill from there.
I hate that the standards for "acceptable" have become so tight they are pretty much unreasonable given the construction medium. Even with customer education and vendor liability protection, there's bound to be pain and unhappiness due to the direction this has all gone, and I don't see it coming back because the manufacturers aren't calling the design shots - the designers are, and they often have NO technical qualifications.
I'm reminded constantly of cabinet?doors that exceed 36" in height - looks great in an interior design photo, absolutely stupid as time and climate cycles accumulate. Also reminds me of a dining room table some folks wanted made 20' long, 6' wide in 12" wide solid single-length planks WALNUT no sapwood. They thought I was crazy when I told them a composite build would be much more stable and higher quality than the solid build they suggested, even if I could FIND the material at any price. Yet all their example photos were of composite build formats....smh....
Hi Jason,
Man, I feel for you.? I ran into the same thing about 10 years ago.? I don’t usually do full overlay slab doors as most of my clients want more traditional construction.? But I took on a job involving a complete esthetic remodel of a mid-century modern home, where everything had been spray painted the same flat beige - including the baseboards, trim, cabinets, walls, ceilings, etc.? For this part of the job (entertainment center wall in the living room) I used ApplyPly (15 layer birch, zero voids) which figured was going to be totally bomb proof.? I hand selected the quilted and book-matched walnut veneer.? States Industries (who makes the ApplePly) did the veneering work at an upcharge of $250 per sheet, but didn’t say a thing about putting veneer over ApplePly for what they knew was slab door and drawer fronts.? I did the layout of the veneer myself at their manufacturing plant in southern Oregon.? The veneering was done in July (hot and dry here), and they were sealed both sides and then hand finished with polymerized tung oil by Sutherland - which is my favorite “oiled look” finish - far superior to Osmo IMO but more time to apply (4 coats).
By the following January (after 3 months of PNW drizzle) the slabs all twisted out of shape - just like you describe.? States said “you should know better than to use plywood for slab doors.” ?I ended up re-installing the entire set of doors and drawer fronts, this time over 5/8 MDF with 1/16” clear maple banding applied both sides by States Industries, then the new quilted walnut veneer vacuum bagged in my shop.? States gratiously provided the banded MDF (thank you very F***ing much), but I ate the cost of the veneer (about $700) plus the fab and re-install labor.? Took me an entire week to re-do the job not including the phone calls, trips to the veneer supplier, etc.? Lesson learned: ?“We don’t do slab doors and drawers - period - go to Ikea if that’s what you want."
So I feel for you.? I don’t have any magic wand suggestions to offer, other than to chalk it up as an expensive learning experience.? I think you’re faced with having to make a decision as to how much you want to battle with Columbia versus just replace it all and get on with your life.? Putting in a humidifier is not something I would not even consider.
This is after the re-install (lousy photo).
On Apr 6, 2021, at 8:09 PM, Jason Holtz < jholtzy@...> wrote:
I don't build many kitchens, but I do it on occasion if it's something interesting. Last fall I built and installed a modern, frameless box, full overlay slab doors, stainless Blum Legrabox drawers, edge pulls etc. The project was in rift white oak with a light white stain. The doors and drawer fronts, finished end panels were all done in Columbia's Europly. This was a custom run, 10 sheets all sequentially laid up by them. $200/sheet plywood, 15 layers void free birch core. You'd think it would be bullet proof. The cabinets were installed in September/October here in Minneapolis last year-which was uncommonly warm and humid. Everything went in looked great.
Fast forward 6 months, I get a call to come adjust some hinges. I go over and start adjusting thing, and can't get some corners to line up right. I took a couple doors off and laid them on the stone counter and they are totally twisted, not cupped or bowed. Rocking corner to corner over 1/4" I checked a few more of the worst offenders and the situation is the same. These are not big doors either. The first ones I checked are 14"x20". It's been winter here, and this is an old house with radiator heat and no easy way to add humidity in the winter, especially when the house was empty for 8 weeks.
I contacted my sales rep at Metro Hardwoods and explained the situation. He responds like he's heard it before, and knows what Columbia's line will be. Never make doors out of veneer core material. I asked him why that's not in the product literature, he's got no answer for that. I ask him why he doesn't ask somebody ordering $2k worth of custom plywood if it's for doors. Not their policy to ask about use. I call the Columbia rep for the region and have a good conversation. I learn the AWI standards manual does specify veneer core shouldn't be used for doors, only MDF core. Well I've never read that or heard it before. He says they don't say don't build a boat with it either...but the lit says excellent results for furniture, cabinetry, and millwork. Sounds awful misleading to me. In the end we agree it's a moisture issue, but who's to say where in the process it occurred. Could have been in the core manufacturing, veneer application, finishing, or after it was installed in the house. No way to know. Columbia would like to see them hang there until this summer when conditions return to warm and humid like when the installation happened to see if they straighten out. If they replace material, they'd only want to do it in MDF core. Of course that's hard to do since the whole job is grain matched. The drawer fronts are fine since they're attached to something as are the end panels.
My customer is resistant to this idea, because if the doors straighten out in summer, only to twist again in winter that's not a solution. Finding a way to humidify their house either is also not on the table since they often travel in the winter. The easy ways are all active daily filling of something. Uggh. Anybody have any wisdom?
Thanks
Jason
--
Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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Imran, The doors and drawer fronts all have the core exposed on the edges, that was the point using the material...which I actually sold them on both for the look and the labor savings of not edge banding all those slabs.? Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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Michael, How many times did you get burned before developing that language in your warranty? Curious about how customers react to it, or do they not read it until there's an issue that needs dealt with? Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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Thanks Jason. I suspected that but wanted to be sure. Not that it makes any difference in your situation ?
It would be ironic to have to band with ply on a MDF panel to get that look.
Imran
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On Apr 7, 2021, at 9:33 AM, Jason Holtz <jholtzy@...> wrote: ? Imran, The doors and drawer fronts all have the core exposed on the edges, that was the point using the material...which I actually sold them on both for the look and the labor savings of not edge banding all those slabs.? Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
Hey David, Wow, that really sucks given you were so involved with States while the panels were being produced. What's wrong with these companies? How can they help you make doors and then say you shouldn't make doors with the product? That's insane.
My big takeaway from this is that I've built my last kitchen. If things go south they can get bad in a hurry. For scale comparison, my job is about 5 times the size of your fireplace wall there (which looks great btw) I actually did a nearly identical kitchen maybe 5 years ago. It looks great. Horizontal quartered maple veneers. Did the vertical orientation make the difference? Who knows.?
I guess I will be remaking all the doors, even the ones that are still straight with MDF cores. I'm hoping to leave the drawer fronts alone. There are lots of them, and some are quite large. They are all together so at least the grain matching can be consistent there. I'll have to decide if I'm edge banding with 1/8 solids as is my preference, then laying up the veneers in house-or if I can get away with cutting pre veneered sheet stock and then edge banding as is industry standard. I'm going to make them wait till summer though out of curiosity to see what happens when the environment returns to install conditions. Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
Bret, I tried an experiment over bending a pair of doors the other direction for 5 days. It definitely helped, but not a long term solution I doubt.?
I'm right with you on designers who have no material knowledge. I got an RFP last fall for a 20' table with a solid oak herringbone?pattern top. Glued to plywood per the specs. I told them it would self destruct in a year and I'd only build it with a?signed release of liability on it.?
Did I mention the kitchen client is a lawyer?
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
Hi Jason,? This really sucks, can’t really offer any solutions for you but can say kitchens are one of the reasons I shut down my business for a reset of sorts, I had done a 100k walnut kitchen and the client had me rebuild the Island 4 times because even though she approved the drawings each time she couldn’t wrap her head around the changes until se saw it completed and installed, luckily I got her to pay for 2 of the changes. Then when I thought I was in The clear she claimed the finish didn’t have the sheen she approved, confirmed by an outside cabinet finishing company...long story but in the end I had to pay the contractor to uninstall all the cabinets bring them back to the shop wait 2 weeks then redelivered and installed without doing a thing to them (a risk I wouldn’t take today) and she was thrilled with the results which were, the same as she had before....
I had similar issues with commercial work, banks, hospitals ect, things definitely can go south in a hurry, I had 5 employees and that complicates things even further
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On Apr 7, 2021, at 9:58 AM, Jason Holtz <jholtzy@...> wrote:
? Bret, I tried an experiment over bending a pair of doors the other direction for 5 days. It definitely helped, but not a long term solution I doubt.?
I'm right with you on designers who have no material knowledge. I got an RFP last fall for a 20' table with a solid oak herringbone?pattern top. Glued to plywood per the specs. I told them it would self destruct in a year and I'd only build it with a?signed release of liability on it.?
Did I mention the kitchen client is a lawyer?
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
Boy, this story is even better with the disclosure of the client's profession.
Im sorry?for your situation.? I am not a pro, but ive done many commissions and had a handful of mishaps out of my control. One involved a contractor picking up a 5' long end grain island from me and laying it flat on a month old concrete slab in a garage overnight. Thing cupped 3/4"+ overnight from the moisture transfer from the concrete.
I do not understand how the supplier expects the doors to reverse twist by the summer's conditions? In my experience, wood movement due to moisture imbalances and humidity changes are not exactly inverse curves of one another. If the winter conditions twisted them, summer conditions are sure to enact changes of their own, but i find it highly unlikely those changes will reverse the original twisting change. On the same hand, the summer changes could also worsen the current twist.?
Patrick
On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 9:58 AM Jason Holtz < jholtzy@...> wrote: Bret, I tried an experiment over bending a pair of doors the other direction for 5 days. It definitely helped, but not a long term solution I doubt.?
I'm right with you on designers who have no material knowledge. I got an RFP last fall for a 20' table with a solid oak herringbone?pattern top. Glued to plywood per the specs. I told them it would self destruct in a year and I'd only build it with a?signed release of liability on it.?
Did I mention the kitchen client is a lawyer?
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765
--
Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
I’ve never built flat doors as I’ve always worries about warp.? I did do a ton of research a few years ago and concluded MDF core was the only way to
go.? I do a fair amount of veneer work and I now have a vacuum table.? I would build substrate by edging MDF with solid wood, maybe 3/8” wide with mitered corners and then veneer over the top.? Super increase in work but I always worry about edge banding failing
in a kitchen and with MDF core I would doubly worry.
?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]>
On Behalf Of Jason Holtz
Sent: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 8:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [FOG] slab door warpage
?
I don't build many kitchens, but I do it on occasion if it's something interesting. Last fall I built and installed a modern, frameless box, full overlay slab doors, stainless Blum Legrabox drawers, edge pulls etc. The project was in rift
white oak with a light white stain. The doors and drawer fronts, finished end panels were all done in Columbia's Europly. This was a custom run, 10 sheets all sequentially laid up by them. $200/sheet plywood, 15 layers void free birch core. You'd think it
would be bullet proof. The cabinets were installed in September/October here in Minneapolis last year-which was uncommonly warm and humid. Everything went in looked great.
Fast forward 6 months, I get a call to come adjust some hinges. I go over and start adjusting thing, and can't get some corners to line up right. I took a couple doors off and laid them on the stone counter and they are totally twisted, not cupped or bowed.
Rocking corner to corner over 1/4" I checked a few more of the worst offenders and the situation is the same. These are not big doors either. The first ones I checked are 14"x20". It's been winter here, and this is an old house with radiator heat and no easy
way to add humidity in the winter, especially when the house was empty for 8 weeks.
I contacted my sales rep at Metro Hardwoods and explained the situation. He responds like he's heard it before, and knows what Columbia's line will be. Never make doors out of veneer core material. I asked him why that's not in the product literature, he's
got no answer for that. I ask him why he doesn't ask somebody ordering $2k worth of custom plywood if it's for doors. Not their policy to ask about use. I call the Columbia rep for the region and have a good conversation. I learn the AWI standards manual does
specify veneer core shouldn't be used for doors, only MDF core. Well I've never read that or heard it before. He says they don't say don't build a boat with it either...but the lit says excellent results for furniture, cabinetry, and millwork. Sounds awful
misleading to me. In the end we agree it's a moisture issue, but who's to say where in the process it occurred. Could have been in the core manufacturing, veneer application, finishing, or after it was installed in the house. No way to know. Columbia would
like to see them hang there until this summer when conditions return to warm and humid like when the installation happened to see if they straighten out. If they replace material, they'd only want to do it in MDF core. Of course that's hard to do since the
whole job is grain matched. The drawer fronts are fine since they're attached to something as are the end panels.
My customer is resistant to this idea, because if the doors straighten out in summer, only to twist again in winter that's not a solution. Finding a way to humidify their house either is also not on the table since they often travel in the winter. The easy
ways are all active daily filling of something. Uggh. Anybody have any wisdom?
Thanks
Jason
--
Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
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Hey Jason,
I have done several slab door kitchens and I grit my teeth every time.? I personally won't do it unless the client agrees to MDF core material or they sign a release.? Even MDF core can warp slightly from tension in the veneer, depending on how thick the veneers are.? I always?use terms like "MDF is less likely to warp" etc... and try to never communicate that it "will not" warp.
I did a series of tables and a large conference table for a local high end golf club a couple years ago.? I outsourced the finish to limit my liability.? They called me back a year later because the finish was peeling in places and the joints were gapping and swollen in different areas.? I was panicked.? I claimed it was a finish issue and the finish guy claimed it was a wood movement or construction issue.? The wood work?in this building was disintegrating in every place.? While there inspecting the table I happened to see a cleaning lady spraying Marvelosa cleaner on some other tables.? I took photographs.? In the end a client of mine who works for the Stickley furniture company had a friend of his in their lab look at the Marvelosa cleaner and the photos of the damage.? He determined that the damage was neither wood movement, construction, or finish related but the fact that they were spraying tile cleaner on the tables.? I told the client there was no warranty for the damage and braced for push back. They weren't happy but dropped the matter.
I am sorry you are in this predicament.??
Jarrett
On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 9:27 AM Patrick Kane < pwk5017@...> wrote: Boy, this story is even better with the disclosure of the client's profession.
Im sorry?for your situation.? I am not a pro, but ive done many commissions and had a handful of mishaps out of my control. One involved a contractor picking up a 5' long end grain island from me and laying it flat on a month old concrete slab in a garage overnight. Thing cupped 3/4"+ overnight from the moisture transfer from the concrete.
I do not understand how the supplier expects the doors to reverse twist by the summer's conditions? In my experience, wood movement due to moisture imbalances and humidity changes are not exactly inverse curves of one another. If the winter conditions twisted them, summer conditions are sure to enact changes of their own, but i find it highly unlikely those changes will reverse the original twisting change. On the same hand, the summer changes could also worsen the current twist.?
Patrick
On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 9:58 AM Jason Holtz < jholtzy@...> wrote: Bret, I tried an experiment over bending a pair of doors the other direction for 5 days. It definitely helped, but not a long term solution I doubt.?
I'm right with you on designers who have no material knowledge. I got an RFP last fall for a 20' table with a solid oak herringbone?pattern top. Glued to plywood per the specs. I told them it would self destruct in a year and I'd only build it with a?signed release of liability on it.?
Did I mention the kitchen client is a lawyer?
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765
--
Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
-- Geometric Innovations LLC
8309 NW 113th St.
Oklahoma City, OK 73162
|
Jason- never got burned as bad as your current situation. Noticed a long time ago about tall doors always being warped and showing hairline cracks at corners everywhere I saw cabinets- mine or otherwise. I’ve been burned on a few doors before I got it together.?
I address almost all situations in the sales side with honest and open dialogue with clients educating them about pros and cons and working through all the options to determine a best fit. I talk probably at least 3 times through the somewhat long design process
(for some this might not be applicable) about anticipated and acceptable warping and wood moving, acceptable vs unacceptable cracks etc. There is no balk at the contract since we went through it many times prior to signing. ?Eliminating surprises and the client
knowing how to adjust doors with a screwdriver on ?Blum hinges goes a long way to making them feel like they have options to tweak and control things even if the wood does it’s own thing. Since then, I don’t think I’ve redone more than 3 doors in the past
3 years.?
I also tend to be very direct about what I do by default and why- things might include no overlay slab solid wood or plywood panels for painted 5 piece doors unless they override a lot of resistance from me, probably an upcharge, and a big disclaimer to abdicate
me from any liability from anything outside of my direct control. Basically becomes an installers liability- has to go in nice and any damage or deficiencies corrected for that process but outside of that, my inspected and approved work is officially done.
Fixing things from there becomes a chargeable event, at my mercy. I tend to be liberal in that regard for making sure my clients have a good experience and refer me but I have the option in my pocket.
Michael Tagge
Built Custom Carpentry ?
?
Get
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Michael,
How many times did you get burned before developing that language in your warranty? Curious about how customers react to it, or do they not read it until there's an issue that needs dealt with?
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765
--
Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
One more note i just thought of, if appropriate have the client sign off on that all interior drywall work is complete and dry (or something to that effect) obviously for new construction/ major rehab.?
At My last place of employment we did all the tables for the NY stock exchange and they wanted the tables delivered before the drywall work was done and refused until we signed a document which they did in the end we delivered and not long afterwards the tables started coming apart - we still had to eat it or potentially (more than likely) get blackballed by the Architect who I think was Gensler which you do not want when your boardroom tables are 100k+....
The approach after that was to still have the document signed but we also sent in a “guy” (union of course, nyc, Boston etc) to take humidity readings over a week or two, not a huge deal since we needed that “guy” to make sure no surprise dents showed up in the delivered furniture and served as one of the 3 union guys needed to “run” the elevator...
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On Apr 7, 2021, at 10:44 AM, Michael Tagge <mike.j.tagge@...> wrote:
?
Jason- never got burned as bad as your current situation. Noticed a long time ago about tall doors always being warped and showing hairline cracks at corners everywhere I saw cabinets- mine or otherwise. I’ve been burned on a few doors before I got it together.?
I address almost all situations in the sales side with honest and open dialogue with clients educating them about pros and cons and working through all the options to determine a best fit. I talk probably at least 3 times through the somewhat long design process
(for some this might not be applicable) about anticipated and acceptable warping and wood moving, acceptable vs unacceptable cracks etc. There is no balk at the contract since we went through it many times prior to signing. ?Eliminating surprises and the client
knowing how to adjust doors with a screwdriver on ?Blum hinges goes a long way to making them feel like they have options to tweak and control things even if the wood does it’s own thing. Since then, I don’t think I’ve redone more than 3 doors in the past
3 years.?
I also tend to be very direct about what I do by default and why- things might include no overlay slab solid wood or plywood panels for painted 5 piece doors unless they override a lot of resistance from me, probably an upcharge, and a big disclaimer to abdicate
me from any liability from anything outside of my direct control. Basically becomes an installers liability- has to go in nice and any damage or deficiencies corrected for that process but outside of that, my inspected and approved work is officially done.
Fixing things from there becomes a chargeable event, at my mercy. I tend to be liberal in that regard for making sure my clients have a good experience and refer me but I have the option in my pocket.
Michael Tagge
Built Custom Carpentry ?
?
Get
Michael,
How many times did you get burned before developing that language in your warranty? Curious about how customers react to it, or do they not read it until there's an issue that needs dealt with?
Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765
--
Jason
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South
Minneapolis, MN 55406
|
Jason, I've never built a cabinet door, so take my suggestion for what it's worth.
Is it possible to attach the fronts of the doors to a very solid piece of MDF, solid enough to take the twist out?
Then run the whole thing through a wide belt sander and thin the doors by at least half or more.
Then while the unit is still flat, glue a 1/2 or 5/8 inch piece of MDF to it to keep it straight?
That would save rebuilding the fronts.
This is probably very impractical, but it works in my head.
Bill Bélanger
|
Edge treatment isn't the issue.? HPL laminated ApplyPly remains pretty stable. The main issue is differential expansion of the faces due to differential moisture absorption.? Just the micro-climate?(humidity, airflow)?difference between the inside of a cabinet and the outside can cause warping.? ?This is not unique to plywood, solid wood does the same thing.? I have a cabinet with breadboard style sliding doors and they can warp more than 1/8" in a single day when the humidity changes rapidly.? I flip the doors around (outside face now facing inside) and the next day they are straight again.? See diagram of the math and geometry involved here.? It's probably not intuitive to most people that less than .002" of length difference over 24" results in a 1/8" arc.?  Plywood also usually does not return to 100% original geometry when returned to original environmental conditions.? There are internal locked-in stresses in the plywood that are not perfectly uniform throughout the material, and when subjected to external stresses (whether externally applied forces, or moisture induced strain) there is a tiny bit of yielding -- a few microscopic wood fibers crush in a non-uniform way, localized microscopic glue creep, etc.? ?Plywood may return 80-90%, but between weather fluctuation and small permanent changes, the probability of long-run satisfaction is very low in a design where even a 1/16" is visible, such as slab doors meeting each other.?
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Were the backs veneered with the same material as the front side ?
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On Apr 7, 2021, at 11:26 AM, mark thomas <murkyd@...> wrote:
?Edge treatment isn't the issue.? HPL laminated ApplyPly remains pretty stable. The main issue is differential expansion of the faces due to differential moisture absorption.? Just the micro-climate?(humidity, airflow)?difference between the inside of a cabinet and the outside can cause warping.? ?This is not unique to plywood, solid wood does the same thing.? I have a cabinet with breadboard style sliding doors and they can warp more than 1/8" in a single day when the humidity changes rapidly.? I flip the doors around (outside face now facing inside) and the next day they are straight again.? See diagram of the math and geometry involved here.? It's probably not intuitive to most people that less than .002" of length difference over 24" results in a 1/8" arc.? <Screen Shot 2021-04-07 at 7.47.06 AM.png> Plywood also usually does not return to 100% original geometry when returned to original environmental conditions.? There are internal locked-in stresses in the plywood that are not perfectly uniform throughout the material, and when subjected to external stresses (whether externally applied forces, or moisture induced strain) there is a tiny bit of yielding -- a few microscopic wood fibers crush in a non-uniform way, localized microscopic glue creep, etc.? ?Plywood may return 80-90%, but between weather fluctuation and small permanent changes, the probability of long-run satisfaction is very low in a design where even a 1/16" is visible, such as slab doors meeting each other.?
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The fronts and backs are the same material, finished in the same way.?
No more slab doors, and probably no more kitchens. I've had it. Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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Jason Holtz
imran
David P. Best
Joe Jensen
Bill Belanger