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Hi all,
For those who have 3-phase Felder and Minimax equipment, what plugs/outlets are you using??? Does your equipment work fine with the L16-30P plugs and L15-30 outlets?? (those are 3 hot plus 1 ground conductors).?? Or does the Felder/Minimax equipment require a 5-wire connection with both ground and neutral conductors?
-Aaron
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Aaron,?
Consider 12/4 SOOW from a strain-relieved terminal?hardwired/structurally secure box on the ceiling and drop toward floor, then end that with L16-30R twistlocks. Then the machines have L16-30P twistlocks and it works great for plugging?in , disconnecting for safety, and flexibility when it's needed to move around the shop floor or make the drop happen in just the perfect spot, independent of the walls. That extra euro wire is not connected to anything, just 3 220v hots and the ground conductor. Also makes it easier to swap machines around when all the plugs are compatible, wherever they are located.
On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 12:27?PM Aaron Inami < ainami@...> wrote: Hi all,
For those who have 3-phase Felder and Minimax equipment, what plugs/outlets are you using??? Does your equipment work fine with the L16-30P plugs and L15-30 outlets?? (those are 3 hot plus 1 ground conductors).?? Or does the Felder/Minimax equipment require a 5-wire connection with both ground and neutral conductors?
-Aaron
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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L16-30 are 480v plugs.? L15-30 is what I run for any machines with less than 25 FLA.? Dave
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Aaron,?
Consider 12/4 SOOW from a strain-relieved terminal?hardwired/structurally secure box on the ceiling and drop toward floor, then end that with L16-30R twistlocks. Then the machines have L16-30P twistlocks and it works great for plugging?in , disconnecting
for safety, and flexibility when it's needed to move around the shop floor or make the drop happen in just the perfect spot, independent of the walls. That extra euro wire is not connected to anything, just 3 220v hots and the ground conductor. Also makes
it easier to swap machines around when all the plugs are compatible, wherever they are located.
On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 12:27?PM Aaron Inami < ainami@...> wrote:
Hi all,
For those who have 3-phase Felder and Minimax equipment, what plugs/outlets are you using??? Does your equipment work fine with the L16-30P plugs and L15-30 outlets?? (those are 3 hot plus 1 ground conductors).?? Or does the Felder/Minimax equipment require
a 5-wire connection with both ground and neutral conductors?
-Aaron
--
Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd)
St Louis, MO 63110
314.772.2167
brett@...
|
Also consider burying everything in the walls where you can’t get at it again without tearing the walls apart. Lol? I would say Brett’s way is the safe way 10/4 so cord drops ?would suggest using 30 amp for all much easier to not screw with 16 and than 30 amp. Standardize, standardize standardize ? Mac,, Designing and building for 50 years
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On Jun 26, 2023, at 1:01 PM, Brett Wissel <Brettwissel@...> wrote:
? Aaron,?
Consider 12/4 SOOW from a strain-relieved terminal?hardwired/structurally secure box on the ceiling and drop toward floor, then end that with L16-30R twistlocks. Then the machines have L16-30P twistlocks and it works great for plugging?in , disconnecting for safety, and flexibility when it's needed to move around the shop floor or make the drop happen in just the perfect spot, independent of the walls. That extra euro wire is not connected to anything, just 3 220v hots and the ground conductor. Also makes it easier to swap machines around when all the plugs are compatible, wherever they are located. On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 12:27?PM Aaron Inami < ainami@...> wrote: Hi all,
For those who have 3-phase Felder and Minimax equipment, what plugs/outlets are you using??? Does your equipment work fine with the L16-30P plugs and L15-30 outlets?? (those are 3 hot plus 1 ground conductors).?? Or does the Felder/Minimax equipment require a 5-wire connection with both ground and neutral conductors?
-Aaron
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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In mill shop I use Felder Euro style 30 amp with phase reversals 5 pine style? In machine shop use twist locks ?as Dave mentioned read the specifications!!!!! On end of plug. mac,,, Designing and building for 50 years
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On Jun 26, 2023, at 1:17 PM, mac campshure <mac512002@...> wrote:
? Also consider burying everything in the walls where you can’t get at it again without tearing the walls apart. Lol? I would say Brett’s way is the safe way 10/4 so cord drops ?would suggest using 30 amp for all much easier to not screw with 16 and than 30 amp. Standardize, standardize standardize ? Mac,, Designing and building for 50 years On Jun 26, 2023, at 1:01 PM, Brett Wissel <Brettwissel@...> wrote:
? Aaron,?
Consider 12/4 SOOW from a strain-relieved terminal?hardwired/structurally secure box on the ceiling and drop toward floor, then end that with L16-30R twistlocks. Then the machines have L16-30P twistlocks and it works great for plugging?in , disconnecting for safety, and flexibility when it's needed to move around the shop floor or make the drop happen in just the perfect spot, independent of the walls. That extra euro wire is not connected to anything, just 3 220v hots and the ground conductor. Also makes it easier to swap machines around when all the plugs are compatible, wherever they are located. On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 12:27?PM Aaron Inami < ainami@...> wrote: Hi all,
For those who have 3-phase Felder and Minimax equipment, what plugs/outlets are you using??? Does your equipment work fine with the L16-30P plugs and L15-30 outlets?? (those are 3 hot plus 1 ground conductors).?? Or does the Felder/Minimax equipment require a 5-wire connection with both ground and neutral conductors?
-Aaron
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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Thanks for the clarifications on the plug naming standards.? What I really am asking is if the Felder/Minimax equipment is fine with just 3 hot + ground or if the Felder/Minimax 3-phase machines need both a ground and neutral wire.
-Aaron
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Forget brown nuetral Designing and building for 50 years
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On Jun 26, 2023, at 1:29 PM, Aaron Inami <ainami@...> wrote:
?Thanks for the clarifications on the plug naming standards.? What I really am asking is if the Felder/Minimax equipment is fine with just 3 hot + ground or if the Felder/Minimax 3-phase machines need both a ground and neutral wire.
-Aaron
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Generally the neutral can be omitted?in 3-phase delta or wye setups IF there is no intermediate voltage leg, and usually there is not with straight induction motor circuits like woodworking machines. Always consult with manufacturer what is important, however, I've never seen a neutral leg in use. My widebelt sander has sophisticated PLC,multiple VFDs, all kinds of on/off and variable voltage switches and? controls, a 5-wire connection on the terminal block going in (it's 480v) and the neutral terminal is literally wired to nothing on the other side of the block.?
On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 1:29?PM Aaron Inami < ainami@...> wrote: Thanks for the clarifications on the plug naming standards.? What I really am asking is if the Felder/Minimax equipment is fine with just 3 hot + ground or if the Felder/Minimax 3-phase machines need both a ground and neutral wire.
-Aaron
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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Surface mounted conduit and plug boxes are the way to go for me. ?I have “pull” boxes up in my attic each containing 20,30,40, amp power. I can drop any power size any where I need it. Sure saves a lot of headache.?
Wade
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On Jun 26, 2023, at 11:17 AM, mac campshure via groups.io <mac512002@...> wrote:
? Also consider burying everything in the walls where you can’t get at it again without tearing the walls apart. Lol? I would say Brett’s way is the safe way 10/4 so cord drops ?would suggest using 30 amp for all much easier to not screw with 16 and than 30 amp. Standardize, standardize standardize ? Mac,, Designing and building for 50 years On Jun 26, 2023, at 1:01 PM, Brett Wissel <Brettwissel@...> wrote:
? Aaron,?
Consider 12/4 SOOW from a strain-relieved terminal?hardwired/structurally secure box on the ceiling and drop toward floor, then end that with L16-30R twistlocks. Then the machines have L16-30P twistlocks and it works great for plugging?in , disconnecting for safety, and flexibility when it's needed to move around the shop floor or make the drop happen in just the perfect spot, independent of the walls. That extra euro wire is not connected to anything, just 3 220v hots and the ground conductor. Also makes it easier to swap machines around when all the plugs are compatible, wherever they are located. On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 12:27?PM Aaron Inami < ainami@...> wrote: Hi all,
For those who have 3-phase Felder and Minimax equipment, what plugs/outlets are you using??? Does your equipment work fine with the L16-30P plugs and L15-30 outlets?? (those are 3 hot plus 1 ground conductors).?? Or does the Felder/Minimax equipment require a 5-wire connection with both ground and neutral conductors?
-Aaron
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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I’m puzzled by the consensus that the neutral is not used. My x-motion machines (Kappa 400 and Profil 45Z) and my big Format-4 wide belt sander all require the fifth (neutral) pin. “Dumb” machines like a drill press, bandsaw, lathe, etc., with
no real electronics and just a main motor, require the 4 pin variety only. Is this a USA versus Australia thing, or am I missing something else here?
Warm regards,
Lucky
Dr David Luckensmeyer
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Surface mounted conduit and plug boxes are the way to go for me. ?I have “pull” boxes up in my attic each containing 20,30,40, amp power. I can drop any power size any where I need it. Sure saves a lot of headache.?
Wade
On Jun 26, 2023, at 11:17 AM, mac campshure via groups.io <mac512002@...> wrote:
?Also consider burying everything in the walls where you can’t get at it again without tearing the walls apart. Lol?
I would say Brett’s way is the safe way 10/4 so cord drops ?would suggest using 30 amp for all much easier to not screw with 16 and than 30 amp. Standardize, standardize standardize ?
Mac,,
Designing and building for 50 years
On Jun 26, 2023, at 1:01 PM, Brett Wissel <Brettwissel@...> wrote:
?
Aaron,?
Consider 12/4 SOOW from a strain-relieved terminal?hardwired/structurally secure box on the ceiling and drop toward floor, then end that with L16-30R twistlocks. Then the machines have L16-30P twistlocks and it works great for plugging?in , disconnecting
for safety, and flexibility when it's needed to move around the shop floor or make the drop happen in just the perfect spot, independent of the walls. That extra euro wire is not connected to anything, just 3 220v hots and the ground conductor. Also makes
it easier to swap machines around when all the plugs are compatible, wherever they are located.
On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 12:27?PM Aaron Inami < ainami@...> wrote:
Hi all,
For those who have 3-phase Felder and Minimax equipment, what plugs/outlets are you using??? Does your equipment work fine with the L16-30P plugs and L15-30 outlets?? (those are 3 hot plus 1 ground conductors).?? Or does the Felder/Minimax equipment require
a 5-wire connection with both ground and neutral conductors?
-Aaron
--
Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd)
St Louis, MO 63110
314.772.2167
brett@...
|
David,
I am no electrician (Although I am an EE and play an electrician on YouTube) 3 phase in the US is 4 conductors total.? The three phases and a ground.? In europe it is 5 conductors?
Anyway, no common in 3ph in the US that I am aware of.
PK
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Hi PK,
Good to know! Thank you.?
EE is a long way above my pay grade!
My degrees are artsy philosophical/historical based. Good for conversation and beers around the campfire. Not good for electrical wiring in the shop! ?
Warm regards,
Lucky
Dr David Luckensmeyer
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David,
I am no electrician (Although I am an EE and play an electrician on YouTube) 3 phase in the US is 4 conductors total.? The three phases and a ground.? In europe it is 5 conductors?
Anyway, no common in 3ph in the US that I am aware of.
PK
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I have the five pin variety here at home, as Mac mentions, all are 32A. The only time I have seen the neutral used was in a single phase light installed on an otherwise three phase machine. 4 pin seems to be a more common connection.?
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Believe it or not, 3 phase is the same everywhere on earth, even upside down in Australia.? ?It has three "phase" (current carrying) wires.
Sometimes machines also require single phase power, which is what requires a "neutral" wire.? ?You get single phase between the neutral and one of the 3P legs.
For example, I have a machine that has three 3P 240V motors, and one 120V 50 watt light bulb, and thus requires 5 wire system (3 phase, 1 neutral, 1 grounding).? A better design is probably to just use a 240V light bulb.??
Whether a machine requires 120V is unrelated to whether it is "dumb".? You can power "smart" electronics from a 3 phase supply.? It's a design choice.
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Hi Mark:
?
Thanks for your post. You much more accurately described what I thought was going on (the use of the word “dumb” was, well, dumb)!
?
Some of my machines (like the aforementioned x-motions) need that 1Ph electricity to power up electronics. In my case the 3PH is 400V (for the drive motors), and the 1PH or extra pin is 240V (presumably for
the heads up display, etc.). I always thought there were 3 hot pins and 1 earth, and the “fifth” pin was the neutral that may or may not be needed for a light, or electronics, or an additional motor, or whatever.
?
Consequently, like what others have said, I have standardised 5 pin sockets for all my 3PH machines, and the fifth or neutral pin is wired or not, as required.
?
Have I understood this correctly, at the most basic level of course?
?
?
Believe it or not, 3 phase is the same everywhere on earth, even upside down in Australia.? ?It has three "phase" (current carrying) wires.
Sometimes machines also require single phase power, which is what requires a "neutral" wire.? ?You get single phase between the neutral and one of the 3P legs.
For example, I have a machine that has three 3P 240V motors, and one 120V 50 watt light bulb, and thus requires 5 wire system (3 phase, 1 neutral, 1 grounding).? A better design is probably to just use a 240V light bulb.??
Whether a machine requires 120V is unrelated to whether it is "dumb".? You can power "smart" electronics from a 3 phase supply.? It's a design choice.
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Lucky,
I assume you are correct that your machines require single phase, in which case they need the neutral (4th current carrying conductor)
Btw, I think people sometimes confuse phasing with voltage, but they are somewhat independent.? Aussie three phase is 400v, and single phase is 230v.? In the US, it's 240v or 208v, and 120v single phase.
Fwiw, Aussie system is more analogous to our 208v.? Note that 120 * sqrt(3) =~ 208, and 230 * sqrt(3) =~ 400.? Not mere coincidence!
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Lucky,?
Based upon my anecdotal conclusions, I think the 5-pin AUS/NZ industrial plug design exists and endures because it was an adopted standard, not necessarily due to a lot of equipment needing the neutral conductor.??
In the USA, I'm sure there's other arguments for splitting 3 phase into single, but electricians seem to tell the story from electricians that the neutral was implemented as a primary way to use one single facility power meter to get both 3 phase and 1 phase service into the building most efficiently.? From my industrial experience, the neutral is also an advantage?in starting large motors (wye-delta starters), but not sure if those advantages have been superseded by VFD tech for controlling starting amps/torque. Your experience for the neutral input to a machine allowing for powering electronics and other single phase systems makes perfect sense, however.
And, correct me if I'm wrong, Mark Thomas, but I believe the neutral leg is always manufactured in the last step at the step-down transformer, while the main power distribution is typically the 3-conductor setup from the power plant. I can have delta power coming in, and a transformer to convert to wye type power with the neutral.
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Mark my knowledge is much more limited than yours and respect your opinions.? All my machines and there is quite a bunch all use a small transformer to supply 1 phase to the machine.? Talking about transformers I just purchased a 5 KVA 208/575 to supply power to my newest shaper it is 5 KW ?575 V ?5.4 amp draw 115 SF pretty new motor. Gomad DFFA -5 with slider. I hope it will work ?in - put is 208 at my shop. Mac,, Designing and building for 50 years
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On Jun 26, 2023, at 5:55 PM, mark thomas <murkyd@...> wrote:
?Lucky,
I assume you are correct that your machines require single phase, in which case they need the neutral (4th current carrying conductor)
Btw, I think people sometimes confuse phasing with voltage, but they are somewhat independent.? Aussie three phase is 400v, and single phase is 230v.? In the US, it's 240v or 208v, and 120v single phase.
Fwiw, Aussie system is more analogous to our 208v.? Note that 120 * sqrt(3) =~ 208, and 230 * sqrt(3) =~ 400.? Not mere coincidence!
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First, I would note all the different voltage standards are arbitrary, originally stemming from decisions made way back by Edison and Tesla in the original electricity wars.? Most people think that 230v is a better baseline standard, and that's what Europe has because Europe was actually behind the curve.? We have 120v standard in the US because it's compatible with Edison's original somewhat random choice, not because it's inherently great.? Europe started electrification later than the US, and by that time, 230v was understood to be a better choice.? It's a lot like metric vs imperial vs whitworth. That said, two physics principles warrant pointing out.? First, three phase motors are superior to single phase? -- more efficient, self-starting, smoother.? ?Four phase or six phase or eleven phase (all real things) motors are smoother yet, but for various practical/cost reasons, 3 phases was the most practical early on, and became the common industrial standard, in parallel to the 110v single phase standard for lighting that began  Edison. The second basic physics is that higher voltage allows smaller conductors.? So the higher the wattage (total power), the higher the voltage you want, in order to minimize the wire/infrastructure cost.? ?At 250,000 volts, the wire size you use on your Felder saw could power a neighborhood. So generators (hydro dams, coal-fired, etc) produce three phase at very high voltages (250kv), and it gets transformed down to "usable" voltages the nearer it gets to the point of use.? At my day job we get 12kv from the utility, which we transform down on-premise to various voltages, ultimately to 120v for "consumer" devices.? But most small/medium industrial users get 600v, because above that it's more complicated to manage.? ?Once you get much above 600v, air is a conductor, so for example breakers have to have operate in a vacuum, or other such complexities.? ?You don't casually turn things on and off that operate at kV levels.? So although you might save money on smaller wire by having 2,000v motors vs 600v motors, you pay a premium in other other ways for higher voltage.? We have more electrical safety personnel than electricians doing electrical work. So to Brett's point, every industrial facility needs both 3 phase (for motors, etc) but also has toasters and coffee pots.? And so electrical distribution systems evolved to conveniently supply both the local standard 3P voltages (600, 500, 480, 460, 400, 240..) and the standard single phase voltages (120 or 230 almost everywhere.)? It's very simple to get any voltage off a transformer, it's really nothing more than the number of wire windings.?? To Brett's comment that neutral is "manufactured".? Well, every output of a transformer is "manufactured".? That's what a transformer does.? It's a device to manufacture some voltage different than the input voltage.? So if you have a transformer with 600v input, and you tap 240v out, and also 120v out, they are both manufactured.? ?But it's correct that it's always the last step, for practical purposes.? If you step down to 120v a mile away from the point of usage, the conductors to go the "last mile" are impractically large and expensive.? So typically a residential power pole is carrying ~5kV until the transformer that you see on the pole outside your house, which steps down to residential voltages. In this sense, "manufactured" is different than this word is most often used on FOG, ie, in relation to phase convertors.? A phase convertor manufactures a phase shift, not a voltage change.? It takes voltage in that is 180° phased, and shifts to 120° phased, basically by storing electrons for 60° of time, and then releasing them.? ? To illustrate the independence of phasing and voltage, here's one of my three phase motors.? It's 5V. 
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Hi Aaron,
I have an AD941, an F700Z, and a KF700SP. All three are three phase machines. ?Though a neutral wire is included in the pigtail on the machine, none of them utilize the neutral.?
Hopefully that helps answer your question.?
Good luck,
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On Jun 26, 2023, at 10:27 AM, Aaron Inami <ainami@...> wrote:
?Hi all,
For those who have 3-phase Felder and Minimax equipment, what plugs/outlets are you using??? Does your equipment work fine with the L16-30P plugs and L15-30 outlets?? (those are 3 hot plus 1 ground conductors).?? Or does the Felder/Minimax equipment require a 5-wire connection with both ground and neutral conductors?
-Aaron
|
David Luckensmeyer
PK