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Dear Steve,

I am a woodworker, a future Felder owner in the someday category, and I am a self-proclaimed expert on sound proofing. My research on sound proofing started 15 years ago when we set out to sound proof my husbands psychiatry offices. We have since spawned a musician child and built two houses. These may seem tame compared to the level of noise produced in a shop, but I have done that too. I have done the research, and I can certainly tell you what doesn't work.

First, the ideas Paul had about lowering the ceiling and dealing with the sound and vibration through the floor are worth doing, especially if your shop floor is wood frame and plywood subfloor, but forget fiberglass insulation bats, they help, but are not the best thing. Also, don't worry about contacting companies who sell specialized materials for sound booths ect. You can get the same result with 1/8 the cost. The most ineffective stuff, and often the most recommended, is the blow-in insulation, been there, done that, it was a big waste of money.

The best material out there is the type of home insulation that comes in solid panels that look like Styrofoam. Usually 2x8 sheets, some are 2' thick and some are 4". Its sometimes pink, can be white, and comes in different "R" values. I used the highest "R" value in that came 2" thick, but you could use the really expensive 4" stuff if you want to go for the max. The nice thing about this, is that for a garage (or even for a room in the house,) you can apply it on the outside of your sheet rock walls leaving cuts outs for outlets and whatnot. Its not hard to bring the outlets and switches out to be flush with walls, depending on how "finished" you want your shop to look. Even after you have the sheets butted up against one another side by side, make sure you fill any gaps with some of that spray in foam you can get at the hardware store. After that, it would be a good idea to cover it with at least some kind of sheet goods to keep the Styrofoam from getting chewed up and gouged, by all those wild kick-backs and flying off-cuts, or just to make it look better. That will also improve the soundproof quality. By the way, you can buy a pricey 3/4" sound board for the same purpose and application, but this works much better.

We found out coincidentally that applying the insulation to the outside of the walls is more effective that putting it between the studs. When we built a sound room for my son, we put the stuff in between the studs and covered the walls with sheet rock. But everywhere there is a stud is a weak spot because wood transmits sound. I'm sure that seems obvious to you violin makers out there, but it wasn't to me. My garage was already built when I sound proofed it, and I used the same material on my garage, but put it on the outside of the sheet rock, including the ceiling, and covered the lower part with the cheapest plywood I could find, and painted it all white again. My garage is at least one third more sound proof than my son's sound room.

Also, don't forget the door to your shop, it will be your biggest sound leak, and if that door goes into the house, its important to think about. I haven't found a way to put that stuff on the door that doesn't come out ugly looking. Of course, use good weather stripping techniques around the frame and under the door.

Depending on what your trying to accomplish, you should think about any windows in your shop. If you are trying to keep the noise out of the house, you may not have to worry about the windows, depending on how they are oriented to other walls of the house. If you are getting noise complaints from the neighbors, then stuff that ugly stuff in the windows too. When the neighbors see how bad that looks, they will wonder which is the lesser of the two evils. I live far enough from my neighbors that its not a problem but I do have some sheets cut to stick into the windows when I'm have an insomniac woodworking frenzy into the wee hours.

Anyway, that's my recipe, we have perfected it through trial and error. Don't forget to have good ventilation, your shop will be buttoned up so tight, you'll be gasping for air.

Good Luck!
Natalie

I appreciate all the responses - thanks!

My workshop is in my basement, right under the family room. I have two
ducts running through my workshop - one feeding into the floor of the
family room above and one feeding into the workshop area.

(1) What's the most effective way to completely sound isolate the duct that
just "passing through" the workshop terminating in the family room.

(2) Is there any way to keep the duct feeding the workshop open yet still
have sound containment? It seems to me that those are two conflicting
goals. It's not a big problem if I have to seal off that duct - I already
have the vent itself shut. But I'd like to know if there is any way to
have the duct open yet still give sound isolation.

(3) Is it possible to construct a small room (isolation chamber) for the DC
that also provides the necessary air flow from the DC back into the
workshop. I would like to both maximize sound isolation yet also allow the
necessary air flow from that "room" back into the workshop. Again, these
seem like conflicting goals. Any ideas? Isolating the workshop from the
sound of the DC is of secondary importance to isolating the sound of the DC
from the rest of the house. Ideas?

Thanks... Steve

I wish I was further along in my DC system to provide first hand advice, but
here is what I am implementing to achieve the goal of sound isolation for
the dust collector:

I have placed the DC in an enclosed space (an "isolation chamber") that is
pierced in four locations:
1) Air inlet (7" spiral pipe).
2) Air exhaust (6" spiral pipe).
3) Cooling air intake (6" opening)
4) Cooling air exhaust (8" X 14")

The air exhaust is directed outside my shop (my poor neighbors!). I will
have separate vents at the opposite end of my shop (my wife thinks it is a
garage and actually parks her car in it) to provide for an air return.

Based on some very preliminary testing, the DC is quieted down
significantly, although I still have much more soundproofing to do. Some of
the noise is coming through the cooling air exhaust which is open to the
shop. The DC sounds like an F-16 when in the shop, but will probably be
quite tolerable once all buttoned up. Still very noticeable, however.

If you do house your DC in an enclosed space, give consideration toward
cooling the system. In order to achieve a 10 degree C temp rise in my
enclosure, I require 200 cfm cooling air. This is easily accomplished with
a fan from Grainger or other source. If you know how much power you will be
required to dissipate, I would be happy to help you estimate the airflow
required.

Hope this helps!

--Charlie

Steve,

You're going to have to inovate and try a few things out. The dust collector
will be the most challenging, what you really want an enclosure that will
deaden the sound. The difficulty is that any gaps significantly increase
sound transmission, and you need gaps for air flow. If you have space, you
can set up a baffle inside any box you build around the DC. The longer air
path will deaden the sound a bit, how much is the real question. You might
also want to check with an air system supplier about how large an opening
you need in the box for the DC to work efficiently. An earlier reply
mentioned foam sheets as the best, they work well because they both isolate
and absorb - there are few gaps, and they do not reflect sound as much as
sheet rock, wood, or concrete. I would use those as insulation in making a
box for the DC. Those sheets work well inside of doors too!

Good luck, let us all know how it works out!

Jon

I appreciate all the responses - thanks!

My workshop is in my basement, right under the family room. I have two
ducts running through my workshop - one feeding into the floor of the
family room above and one feeding into the workshop area.

(1) What's the most effective way to completely sound isolate the duct

that

just "passing through" the workshop terminating in the family room.

(2) Is there any way to keep the duct feeding the workshop open yet still
have sound containment? It seems to me that those are two conflicting
goals. It's not a big problem if I have to seal off that duct - I already
have the vent itself shut. But I'd like to know if there is any way to
have the duct open yet still give sound isolation.

(3) Is it possible to construct a small room (isolation chamber) for the

DC

that also provides the necessary air flow from the DC back into the
workshop. I would like to both maximize sound isolation yet also allow

the

necessary air flow from that "room" back into the workshop. Again, these
seem like conflicting goals. Any ideas? Isolating the workshop from the
sound of the DC is of secondary importance to isolating the sound of the

DC

from the rest of the house. Ideas?

Thanks... Steve



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Natalie,

Thanks for posting about your experiences in sound proofing. This is
something I need to do to my shop. Fortunately, it is detached from the
house, but it faces the alley and is within 50 - 75' of my neighbors homes.
So, I one of my goals is to keep the noise down so as to not irritate the
neigbors or call attention to a shop full of tools (we get a number of
questionable folks wandering through the alley at night).

I plan to build a raised wood floor over the existing slab. Do you have any
thoughts on what I could do to prevent the floor from becoming a sounding
board?

For windows, have you tried putting up polycarbonate panels? This is the
stuff they make interior storm windows out of, and not only is it a poor
heat conductor, but also a good sound insulator. It is often demonstrated
with a radio blaring away inside the window. Screwed down, it could also be
a good theft deterent since the stuff is just about unbreakable.

..Geoff

Dear Natalie,

I read your tips with great interest.

My shop is on the ground floor, downstairs from a computer college. The
building has double brick (cavity) walls, a extra reinforced concrete slab
(350mm thick) at 3.650m above the ground floor slab.
I've re-screeded the workshop floor and will have an old carpet to cover it
so as to dampen the reflected sound.
Unfortunately the slab above really transmits sound/vibrations quite
efficiently through itself. The windows (1m high) are set at 2.650m and go
up to the lower side of the slab, on the South side of the shop.
I have the dust collector on the outside of the South wall (in the car
park).

Do you think a suspended ceiling (of chip-board on battens) and something
similar on the walls would dampen the sound transmission?
Would a layer of chipboard under the machine help any?

As I have two airconditioner openings (and two very old airconditioning
units) to let air in, so I may put a layer of poly-carb over the windows (if
I can get enough air through the dust collection system).

Thanks for your input.

Anthony

Anthony,

As far as the ceiling of your shop goes, I would think that if you put in a drop ceiling and put the foam panels either on the outside of the ceiling or concealed inside the framework and covered with sheet rock or plywood would do the trick. However, I think it would work just as well to put the foam panels on the surface of the concrete slab, assuming you could figure out a way to attach them other than, say, with your hot glue gun. As someone pointed out, these panels absorb the sound, as much as provide a barrier. As far as the vibrations go, just tell those computer techys that you won't charge them for the periodic foot massages.

Regarding you question about putting chipboard under the machine, I just don't think it will make enough difference to warrant the work and expense. I think the carpet will work good enough on the floor, but if you were inclined to do something more than the carpet, I would buy the 3/4" sound board that's fairly common in hardware stores. It is sometimes referred to as fiberboard, but make sure that what you buy has some specific claim to sound proofing qualities. This would be fine on a floor covered by carpet, but would not be durable enough by itself. The other concern I would have is getting your machinery level on it. The weight of the machinery might crush it unevenly, so consider that idea with caution.

By the way, I have carpet on my shop floor, (but the legs of my machines and workbench are not on carpet). I started out using large pieces of carpet over those rubber fatigue mats for extra help on the concrete floor and found that they help keep the dust down a lot. Mainly because the dust sticks to them. They aren't as troublesome and hard to clean up as I guessed they would be, they make the floor warmer and not as hard on the joints. The best part is that when I drop my tools or work pieces, they suffer much less damage.

I don't know anything about the polycarbonate material you referred to for the windows, but I would love to know more about it.

Natalie
----- Original Message
-----
From: Anthony Christy
To: felder-woodworking@... ; dotcalm@...
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2000 12:03 AM
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Sound Proofing Materials


Dear Natalie,

I read your tips with great interest.

My shop is on the ground floor, downstairs from a computer college. The
building has double brick (cavity) walls, a extra reinforced concrete slab
(350mm thick) at 3.650m above the ground floor slab.
I've re-screeded the workshop floor and will have an old carpet to cover it
so as to dampen the reflected sound.
Unfortunately the slab above really transmits sound/vibrations quite
efficiently through itself. The windows (1m high) are set at 2.650m and go
up to the lower side of the slab, on the South side of the shop.
I have the dust collector on the outside of the South wall (in the car
park).

Do you think a suspended ceiling (of chip-board on battens) and something
similar on the walls would dampen the sound transmission?
Would a layer of chipboard under the machine help any?

As I have two airconditioner openings (and two very old airconditioning
units) to let air in, so I may put a layer of poly-carb over the windows (if
I can get enough air through the dust collection system).

Thanks for your input.

Anthony



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Geoff,

At the high school shop where I sometimes help out, they have a floor just as you described and the exterior walking surface is of maple hardwood. I have never really stopped to think how that might reverberate the noise, but it probably does. I just posted a message to Scott Slater regarding his shop floor, and other than what I suggested to him, the only other thing you might consider is using those square rubber floor tiles that lock together, (I have a catalogue if your interested), or laying down those large square rubber fatigue mats. These rubber tiles would also serve as fatigue mats. Rubber is a good material for sound absorption, but because it is more dense and without airpockets trapped inside, it is not as effective as Styrofoam and foamrubber.

The greatest thing about the raised floor at the high school shop is that they routed all the dust collection ducts under the floor, they don't have all those pipes going up to the ceiling to that get in the way when I'm swinging long boards around. I have often wondered what would happen if one of them became clogged, but I guess they would do the same thing plumbers do. In 4 years, I haven't heard of that being a problem.

I haven't heard about the polycarbonate panels you mentioned, but would like to know more about them.

Thanks,
Natalie

Natalie,

Thanks for the information. The interlocking rubber tiles are probably the
same thing the weight rooms use... they might be a great solution so long as
I can still roll my machines around and the tiles aren't too much of a
thermal insulator since I plan to have in-floor heating. The wood floor is
not only nice to stand on and not so disasterous to dropped parts, but it
allows insulating with pink-board, laying down the heating tubes, running
electricity and dust collection, and it's something I can do without
emptying the shop and breaking out the existing floor. I may end up using
something called Warm Board for the sub-floor - it already has grooves
routed into it for the heating tubes and an aluminum conduction layer
laminated on top for fast temperature response.

You can get polycarbonate at most home centers in the cut shop... one brand
name is Lucite-Tuf (funny, the sheet says it's acrylic - same stuff?). When
used for interior storm windows, it is sometimes fitted with magnetic strip
and the window frame with steel L channel (painted to blend in). At my
parent's house, I was always amazed at the noise reduction when the storms
were put up for the winter. A more expensive form of polycarb is molded with
internal air channels and is used for greenhouses.

Take care,
..Geoff