#139995

I recently sold my K700S and replaced it with a K450 X-Motion. As requested by one FOG member, these are my initial impressions of the two saws.

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As background, I am a retired old fogey who has done woodworking as a hobby for some 35 years. The backbone of my shop was a Delta Unisaw. It was a fine saw, but after 30+ years I was ready for something else.

The K700S was a good machine, and really did everything I wanted it to do. Mine had no electronic controls, but was accurate and smooth. The upgrade to the X-Motion was largely to get the M-Motion fence and blade height, and I was also interested in the PCS system. I have never been close to having an injury with the Delta or the K700S, but if I ever did I would mentally have a hard time enjoying this hobby.

In no particular order, my thoughts are as follows.

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Size: The K450-X is a large and heavier saw. While the rip capacity, slider length and outrigger fence are the same, the sheet metal of the K450-X is thicker. The K450-X has a much larger and sturdier outfeed table, and I find that additional working surface to be quite helpful.

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Overarm Guard: The overarm guard of the K450-X is much larger. At first I thought it would be awkward working around it, but that does not seem to be the case. It is much easier to move the guard out of the way, as the guard releases with a toggle instead of having to unscrew a bolt to loosen it and then walk back around the saw to re-connect it. That sounds like a small thing, but it is a big change in convenience.

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The dust collection hose at the overarm guard is 3 ?” diameter in the K700S and 4” on the K450-X, but I do not feel like there is a noticeable difference in the performance.

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Power: The K700S had a single-phase 4 kW motor, while the K450X has a 5.5kW three-phase motor. The K450-X is a more powerful saw than the K700S, but since the K700S never seemed short on power that is not a significant difference for me.

The K450-X is a very noisy saw. Without measuring sound levels, it seems to be quite a bit louder than the K700S even with the same blades.

?

Blades: Changing blades seemed easier on the K700S. I cannot quite put my finger on why it is easier. It is partly because the pins on the K700S go completely through the blade flange and the pins on the K450-A do not. I could align the flange more easily on the K700S.

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The K450-X will accommodate larger blades. I used 300-mm blades on the K700S (and those looked huge compared to my old 10” blades!), and I also have a couple of 350-mm and one 400-mm blade for my K450-X. Normally that is not a significant thing, but I did have one instance with my K700S where I could not cut as deeply as I wanted. A 400-mm blade is a monster!

?

The K700S has blade pins attached to the arbor, while the blade pins on the K450-X are attached to a flange. When mounting a dado set (a Forrest Dado King, in my case) on the K700S the pins engage the dado set. On the K450-X the flange with the pins is removed to mount the dado set, so there are no pins to secure the dado set. So far I have not attempted to use the dado, so I do not know how to deal with this difference.

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Adjustments: Adjusting the outrigger fence for a square cut was much easier on the K700S. The mechanism is simpler, and when using a square and dial indicator I could see the change in the indicator while I made adjustments. With the K450-X I have to move the square out of the way, disconnect the fence at the adjuster, make an adjustment, and put everything back together to see if the adjustment was right.

?

The X-Motion fence is fantastic! No more walking around the slider to adjust the fence!

?

Using the display panel to set blade height and fence position is particularly helpful. I am in the middle of making a frame and panel chest (toybox for a grand-daughter) and I can switch back and forth between plowing grooves and making tenons, or even change a blade and cut pieces to length or width, and then go back to a previous operation by keying in the appropriate settings. That makes a change in operation, as with previous saws I had to complete all of one operation before moving to a different operation. It was very hard to get back to the same depth, position, and width of a groove, for example, with the manual settings.

?

I simply snap a photo of the display to save the settings for a particular operation. I suspect there is a way to save settings in the machine, but I have not figured that out yet.

?

Having the controls up high on the display, instead of under the table, is certainly convenient.

?

The X-Motion fence will not approach the blade closer than about 0.12 inches. This is a disadvantage if trying to mill a rabbet (or rebate) or a tenon while using the fence as a bump stop. For a simple end tenon I can clamp a block to the fence to make a bump stop close, but for a rabbet along the edge of a panel there does not seem to be a way to make a zero-distance bump stop.

?

This version of the K450-X has a DRO for the outrigger fence angle. I’ve only used that once, but it seems to be pretty accurate. My K700S has a scale printed on the outrigger, but it is possible that in over two years I did not actually cut an angle with that saw.

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PCS: My version of the K450-X has the PCS safety system. Felder says it is not reliable without having a PCS-certified blade (available only from Felder, I believe). When starting the saw the PCS system checks itself, and flashes a green light when the PCS is active. The green light comes on with my Tenryu and Amana blades, but according to the Felder technician that does not mean it will always work properly. I plan to test it a few times to see if it ever fails to work.

?

The PCS goes through the check-out process every time the blade starts spinning. It takes just a few seconds, and so far does not seem to be affecting work flow.

?

It cost me at least US$40,000 to make this change. That includes selling my K700S, some new blades, three-phase power, paying a rigger to move the old saw out and the new saw in, and an extra $675 to repair my lawn after the rigger drove over it with a forklift multiple times. Was it worth it? Certainly not from any economic sense, but as a hobbyist economics don’t play into anything. I had the cash, and don’t regret making the change.

--

John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941

#139996

John,

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Thanks for the feedback. This is an impressive machine!

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Regards,

?

Jacques?

#139998

开云体育

John, thanks for the comparison. ?I’d like to see a photo of the flange on your 450x with the pins if you don’t mind posting. ?The 400x has pins on the securing cap but not on the flange, so no pin holes are necessary in the blades.

Although you didn’t call it out by name, you have the optional X-Roll outrigger which has a unique crosscut fence registration stop adjustment. ?The standard outrigger for the 450x has the same adjustment that your K700 had.

Since you brought up the toggle release on the overhead saw guard, you might be interested in adding this remote release cable: ?

And if you’d like, I can document what I did to be able to position the rip fence closer to the saw blade - including against the blade, or overlapping it to make trip cut that are less than the kerf width of the blade (useful for fitting doors to cabinet openings). ?Just let me know.

David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best

Show quoted text

On Feb 16, 2025, at 8:19?AM, John Hinman via groups.io <jhinman1911@...> wrote:

I recently sold my K700S and replaced it with a K450 X-Motion. As requested by one FOG member, these are my initial impressions of the two saws.
?
As background, I am a retired old fogey who has done woodworking as a hobby for some 35 years. The backbone of my shop was a Delta Unisaw. It was a fine saw, but after 30+ years I was ready for something else.
The K700S was a good machine, and really did everything I wanted it to do. Mine had no electronic controls, but was accurate and smooth. The upgrade to the X-Motion was largely to get the M-Motion fence and blade height, and I was also interested in the PCS system. I have never been close to having an injury with the Delta or the K700S, but if I ever did I would mentally have a hard time enjoying this hobby.
In no particular order, my thoughts are as follows.
?
Size: The K450-X is a large and heavier saw. While the rip capacity, slider length and outrigger fence are the same, the sheet metal of the K450-X is thicker. The K450-X has a much larger and sturdier outfeed table, and I find that additional working surface to be quite helpful.
?
Overarm Guard: The overarm guard of the K450-X is much larger. At first I thought it would be awkward working around it, but that does not seem to be the case. It is much easier to move the guard out of the way, as the guard releases with a toggle instead of having to unscrew a bolt to loosen it and then walk back around the saw to re-connect it. That sounds like a small thing, but it is a big change in convenience.
?
The dust collection hose at the overarm guard is 3 ?” diameter in the K700S and 4” on the K450-X, but I do not feel like there is a noticeable difference in the performance.
?
Power: The K700S had a single-phase 4 kW motor, while the K450X has a 5.5kW three-phase motor. The K450-X is a more powerful saw than the K700S, but since the K700S never seemed short on power that is not a significant difference for me.
The K450-X is a very noisy saw. Without measuring sound levels, it seems to be quite a bit louder than the K700S even with the same blades.
?
Blades: Changing blades seemed easier on the K700S. I cannot quite put my finger on why it is easier. It is partly because the pins on the K700S go completely through the blade flange and the pins on the K450-A do not. I could align the flange more easily on the K700S.
?
The K450-X will accommodate larger blades. I used 300-mm blades on the K700S (and those looked huge compared to my old 10” blades!), and I also have a couple of 350-mm and one 400-mm blade for my K450-X. Normally that is not a significant thing, but I did have one instance with my K700S where I could not cut as deeply as I wanted. A 400-mm blade is a monster!
?
The K700S has blade pins attached to the arbor, while the blade pins on the K450-X are attached to a flange. When mounting a dado set (a Forrest Dado King, in my case) on the K700S the pins engage the dado set. On the K450-X the flange with the pins is removed to mount the dado set, so there are no pins to secure the dado set. So far I have not attempted to use the dado, so I do not know how to deal with this difference.
?
Adjustments: Adjusting the outrigger fence for a square cut was much easier on the K700S. The mechanism is simpler, and when using a square and dial indicator I could see the change in the indicator while I made adjustments. With the K450-X I have to move the square out of the way, disconnect the fence at the adjuster, make an adjustment, and put everything back together to see if the adjustment was right.
?
The X-Motion fence is fantastic! No more walking around the slider to adjust the fence!
?
Using the display panel to set blade height and fence position is particularly helpful. I am in the middle of making a frame and panel chest (toybox for a grand-daughter) and I can switch back and forth between plowing grooves and making tenons, or even change a blade and cut pieces to length or width, and then go back to a previous operation by keying in the appropriate settings. That makes a change in operation, as with previous saws I had to complete all of one operation before moving to a different operation. It was very hard to get back to the same depth, position, and width of a groove, for example, with the manual settings.
?
I simply snap a photo of the display to save the settings for a particular operation. I suspect there is a way to save settings in the machine, but I have not figured that out yet.
?
Having the controls up high on the display, instead of under the table, is certainly convenient.
?
The X-Motion fence will not approach the blade closer than about 0.12 inches. This is a disadvantage if trying to mill a rabbet (or rebate) or a tenon while using the fence as a bump stop. For a simple end tenon I can clamp a block to the fence to make a bump stop close, but for a rabbet along the edge of a panel there does not seem to be a way to make a zero-distance bump stop.
?
This version of the K450-X has a DRO for the outrigger fence angle. I’ve only used that once, but it seems to be pretty accurate. My K700S has a scale printed on the outrigger, but it is possible that in over two years I did not actually cut an angle with that saw.
?
PCS: My version of the K450-X has the PCS safety system. Felder says it is not reliable without having a PCS-certified blade (available only from Felder, I believe). When starting the saw the PCS system checks itself, and flashes a green light when the PCS is active. The green light comes on with my Tenryu and Amana blades, but according to the Felder technician that does not mean it will always work properly. I plan to test it a few times to see if it ever fails to work.
?
The PCS goes through the check-out process every time the blade starts spinning. It takes just a few seconds, and so far does not seem to be affecting work flow.
?
It cost me at least US$40,000 to make this change. That includes selling my K700S, some new blades, three-phase power, paying a rigger to move the old saw out and the new saw in, and an extra $675 to repair my lawn after the rigger drove over it with a forklift multiple times. Was it worth it? Certainly not from any economic sense, but as a hobbyist economics don’t play into anything. I had the cash, and don’t regret making the change.

--

John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941

#140003

David, I am attaching a sequence of photos. 1 - saw blade installed, 2 - saw blade removed showing flange and pins, and 3 - arbor with flange removed and the back side of the flange. The short pins protruding from the back of the flange mate with notches at the arbor.

?

I recall seeing your remote pull-cord for the overhead guard, and had planned to implement that even before I received the saw.

?

I am very interested in how to get the rip fence closer to the blade!

?

--

John Hinman
Boise ID USA
Kappa 450X and A941

#140004

开云体育

Hi John,

Just to be clear. The rear flange has pins on both sides, to mate with the recess in the arbor and the holes in the blade?

Imran Malik

IAM Wood Creations

Show quoted text

On Feb 16, 2025, at 4:50?PM, John Hinman via groups.io <jhinman1911@...> wrote:

?

David, I am attaching a sequence of photos. 1 - saw blade installed, 2 - saw blade removed showing flange and pins, and 3 - arbor with flange removed and the back side of the flange. The short pins protruding from the back of the flange mate with notches at the arbor.

<IMG_3260.jpeg>

<IMG_3261.jpeg>

<IMG_3264.jpeg>

?

I recall seeing your remote pull-cord for the overhead guard, and had planned to implement that even before I received the saw.

?

I am very interested in how to get the rip fence closer to the blade!

?

--

John Hinman
Boise ID USA
Kappa 450X and A941

#140005

Imran, that is correct for the K450X. For the K700S the pins are permanently mounted into the arbor assembly.

--

John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941

#140006

开云体育

Thanks John. The pictures showed it but it did not show both sides of the rear flange. Interesting, maybe, David B has an idea of this. My 2006 K975, has no pins on either side of the rear flange. Only pins are on the front flange. They go in the holes in the arbor. Apparently, the holes within the arbor are not used in your case.

K975 uses a different flange on the front when dado is used. I am going for memory, but IIRC this front flange does not have any pins.

Imran Malik

IAM Wood Creations

Show quoted text

On Feb 16, 2025, at 5:42?PM, John Hinman via groups.io <jhinman1911@...> wrote:

?

Imran, that is correct for the K450X. For the K700S the pins are permanently mounted into the arbor assembly.

--

John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941

#140008

开云体育

John, can you show me the flip side of this flange with another photo please”

David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best

Show quoted text

On Feb 16, 2025, at 1:50?PM, John Hinman via groups.io <jhinman1911@...> wrote:

David, I am attaching a sequence of photos. 1 - saw blade installed, 2 - saw blade removed showing flange and pins, and 3 - arbor with flange removed and the back side of the flange. The short pins protruding from the back of the flange mate with notches at the arbor.

<IMG_3260.jpeg>

<IMG_3261.jpeg>

<IMG_3264.jpeg>

?

I recall seeing your remote pull-cord for the overhead guard, and had planned to implement that even before I received the saw.

?

I am very interested in how to get the rip fence closer to the blade!

?

?

--

John Hinman
Boise ID USA
Kappa 450X and A941

#140011

This is the other side, with the flange in place. This is what it looks like when ready to install a new blade.

--

John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941

#140012

开云体育

I am very interested in how to get the rip fence closer to the blade!

John,

I have a rip fence extrusion that is shorter than the normal one specifically for bump-stop use. ?You can buy it from Felder?.

When using this fence with a 300mm blade, it’s impossible to get the fence extrusion to overlap with the blade since it isn’t long enough, but it works well as a bump stop.

So to use this as a bump stop and defeat the 3mm gap that the positioning system won’t go beyond, install the fence extrusion with the wide face down, and push it far enough forward that the limit switch is tricked into thinking that fence is installed in the vertical position as shown below:

With the fence in that position, you can enter the value 42mm into the rip fence position on the heads-up display, and then push start. ?(The fence extrusion is 42mm taller than it is wide). ?Once that is done, pull the fence extrusion back over the limit switch, and lock the fence extrusion to the rip fence housing, and you’ll see the fence is now at the Zero position relative to the right side of the blade kerf. ?

As long as you are using a fence extrusion that isn’t long enough to overlap the blade when pushed forward enough to defeat the limit switch, you don’t risk getting the blade trapped and forced into and bending your saw blade. ?This is the reason I use the short fence. ?You can do the same with the long fence, but instead of pushing it forward, you’ll remove completely by pulling it backward, then set the display and housing, then reinstall the extrusion. ?Hope that’s clear. ?The short fence extrusion is for safety.

Let’s take the case where you want to have the bump stop positioned for a 1mm trim cut off the edge of a door. ?Assuming the blade kerf width is 3.3mm, you’d push the fence forward so the limit switch is NOT activated, then enter 39.7 (42mm - 2.3mm) into the display, push start, the fence housing moves, pull the fence extrusion back over that limit switch and lock it in position, and you’re display will read “ -2.2 “ leaving 1mm of the blade kerf exposed for the trimming cut. ?Of course at this point, you’d push your material against the fence extrusion and lock it to the slider with clamps before proceeding with the cut.

David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best

#140013

开云体育

OK, that’s what I figured based on your description. ?This is totally different from the Kappa 400 arrangement which does NOT have pins that go through pin holes in the blade. ?I guess Felder decided that a 450mm blade needs positive engagement beyond just clamping force to brake the blade without the securing cap coming unscrewed and loose.

David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best

Show quoted text

On Feb 16, 2025, at 3:59?PM, John Hinman via groups.io <jhinman1911@...> wrote:

This is the other side, with the flange in place. This is what it looks like when ready to install a new blade.

<IMG_3262.jpeg>

--

John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941

#140015

It seems counter-intuitive that the K700S, with a maximum blade size of 315 mm, would have pins and the Kappa 400 with larger blade capacity does not.

?

It sounds like Imran’s saw has pins in the outer cover flange (the part visible after a blade is installed, but those pins do not engage the arbor. It is not clear to me what those pins would do.

--

John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941

#140016

开云体育

Imran’s saw to which you refer is a K975. ?The pins on the cap secure the cap to the saw arbor so that it doesn’t spin loose when breaking is applied. ?The same pins exist on the cap for the Kappa 400 for the same reason. ?I’m guessing the reason Felder went back to a pin-though-blade setup on the Kappa 450 has something to do with the availability of the Easy-Lock system on that machine. ?

David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best

Show quoted text

On Feb 16, 2025, at 5:33?PM, John Hinman via groups.io <jhinman1911@...> wrote:

It seems counter-intuitive that the K700S, with a maximum blade size of 315 mm, would have pins and the Kappa 400 with larger blade capacity does not.

?

It sounds like Imran’s saw has pins in the outer cover flange (the part visible after a blade is installed, but those pins do not engage the arbor. It is not clear to me what those pins would do.

--

John Hinman
Boise ID
Kappa 450X and A941

#140017

Hi,?

Just to let you?know that my Felder 945S has the exact same flange/pin design as John's Kappa 450. I suppose it might have something to do with stopping a size 450mm blade.?

Regards,?

Cornelius Schultze-Kraft?

Cyprus?

K700S vs Format4 K450X Impressions