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pedestal base help

Jason Holtz All Messages By This Member #138837 My next commission is to build a walnut dining table with an elliptical top 42x80" and a tapered scalloped base.? This is a fun challenge. Surely involves custom shaper knives and an elaborate jig to hold the staves at an angle while running the cove cuts. Looking for advice on whether the base should also be an ellipse, or if round with some additional support in the long dimension at the top, ie. a rail or pair of rails that bisect the top of the base. I'm assuming I ballast the thing with a few hundred pounds of sand tubes inside.? I found a formula for pedestals that is diameter/2 + 2" which would be 23" on this...or 23" x 42" if an oval. ? What say you? ? Thanks Jason ? -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
Marlowe McGraw All Messages By This Member #138838 Jason, I'd say if the client was good with the circular base, stick with that and save yourself some serious head scratching.?? I think a challenge that?you'll have is glueing up of pre-shaped tapered staves. I did a series of stave built columns that ended up as cylinders.? I left the staves flat and shaped after glueing them up.? I used 3/4 steel strap, double crimped, and wedges pointing in opposite directions. I went round the circle tapping each one until tight.? Maybe some version of that for your project? The metal banding might be another?challenge with the seasonal movement of the wood. Looks like a fun project! Marlowe McGraw toggle quoted message Show quoted text On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 6:59?AM Jason Holtz via <jholtzy=[email protected]> wrote: My next commission is to build a walnut dining table with an elliptical top 42x80" and a tapered scalloped base.? This is a fun challenge. Surely involves custom shaper knives and an elaborate jig to hold the staves at an angle while running the cove cuts. Looking for advice on whether the base should also be an ellipse, or if round with some additional support in the long dimension at the top, ie. a rail or pair of rails that bisect the top of the base. I'm assuming I ballast the thing with a few hundred pounds of sand tubes inside.? I found a formula for pedestals that is diameter/2 + 2" which would be 23" on this...or 23" x 42" if an oval. ? What say you? ? Thanks Jason ? -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
KRPatel All Messages By This Member #138839 Jason, ? Will be a thing of beauty once done!? I personally like the rounded base approach with a tapered top...if going this approach, can you (i) cut all the staves the same width (top + bottom), (ii) run the coves on the shaper, and then (iii) taper the staves on a slider?? The inside of the staves will be flat and can facilitate supports/cross braces to provide structural integrity along with metal plates to weigh it down.? There is some math there with regards to the angle of the taper cuts and the bevel angle.
Jarrett Maxwell All Messages By This Member #138841 Hey Jason,? I personally would build it in the process? KP outlined. This looks super fun! Keep us updated on the progress.? Jarrett toggle quoted message Show quoted text On Wed, Dec 18, 2024, 8:18?AM KRPatel via <kamalsonal=[email protected]> wrote: Jason, ? Will be a thing of beauty once done!? I personally like the rounded base approach with a tapered top...if going this approach, can you (i) cut all the staves the same width (top + bottom), (ii) run the coves on the shaper, and then (iii) taper the staves on a slider?? The inside of the staves will be flat and can facilitate supports/cross braces to provide structural integrity along with metal plates to weigh it down.? There is some math there with regards to the angle of the taper cuts and the bevel angle.
James Zhu All Messages By This Member #138844 Yes, metal banding could be a problem. Here below is Michael Fortune's cherry and ebony hall table with the waterfall edge. The way he built the base is very creative. The top is a hollow torsion box with veneer. You can find all the posts related to this table build from Peter Rodin's instagram account, he used to work for Michael Fortune.? Maybe you can borrow some ideas from his build. James toggle quoted message Show quoted text On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 8:48?AM Marlowe McGraw via <marlomcgraw=[email protected]> wrote: Jason, I'd say if the client was good with the circular base, stick with that and save yourself some serious head scratching.?? I think a challenge that?you'll have is glueing up of pre-shaped tapered staves. I did a series of stave built columns that ended up as cylinders.? I left the staves flat and shaped after glueing them up.? I used 3/4 steel strap, double crimped, and wedges pointing in opposite directions. I went round the circle tapping each one until tight.? Maybe some version of that for your project? The metal banding might be another?challenge with the seasonal movement of the wood. Looks like a fun project! Marlowe McGraw On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 6:59?AM Jason Holtz via <jholtzy=[email protected]> wrote: My next commission is to build a walnut dining table with an elliptical top 42x80" and a tapered scalloped base.? This is a fun challenge. Surely involves custom shaper knives and an elaborate jig to hold the staves at an angle while running the cove cuts. Looking for advice on whether the base should also be an ellipse, or if round with some additional support in the long dimension at the top, ie. a rail or pair of rails that bisect the top of the base. I'm assuming I ballast the thing with a few hundred pounds of sand tubes inside.? I found a formula for pedestals that is diameter/2 + 2" which would be 23" on this...or 23" x 42" if an oval. ? What say you? ? Thanks Jason ? -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
Jonathan Smith Member Profile All Messages By This Member #138849 Jason, ? Seems like that formula is missing a weight component.? My mom had a 72" dia kitchen table with a cast iron pedestal that was about 24" dia.? It was stable because the pedestal was wicked heavy with most of the weight at the base.? ? Picture a 50lb child climbing up on the table next to a case of red wine. If the proportions look good to you, add the sand tubes.
Bryce Comer Member Profile All Messages By This Member #138850 It looks to me like the band is copper, quite likely very thin too. On top of that is the fact that it is recessed in the edge, so any amount of movement is likely hidden. As for the base, perhaps you could shape and taper your staves first then biscuit them for alignment and glue up with some plywood rings, not unlike how a cooper would make a barrel. I will be interested to hear which way you approach it and how you get on. Regards, Bryce -- https://www.brycecomerwoodworks.com/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHdrRaAZd_pOa7wwbdNPUEw
John Renzetti All Messages By This Member #138851 Jason, you do beautiful work. I enjoy seeing your projects on FB
TMichael WARD All Messages By This Member #138852 I long ago made a 4inch thick end-grain oval table about 36" x 44" with a 3/16 x 1.24” brass band inset into the edge. It was beautiful at first. And the table top was from 10 year old hard wood from heavy machinery pallets shipped from the midwest, air dried outside. The table proceeded to shrink leaving the metal gapping out. Two years later, I took off the band, shortened and remounted it. Table continued to shrink (less this time) more the year after - more gapping, so finally I abandoned the metal band and live with the groove Mike Ward
mac campshure All Messages By This Member #138856 开云体育 Jason? You might contact Steve this is his cup of tea!? martin/campshure/co/llc mac campshure 7412 elmwood ave. middleton, wi 53562-3106 608-332-2330?cell airtightclamps@... Designing and building for 50 years toggle quoted message Show quoted text On Dec 18, 2024, at 11:35?AM, TMichael WARD via groups.io <tmikko@...> wrote: nted it. Table continued to shrink (less
Jason Holtz All Messages By This Member #138861 Thanks for all the responses so far. PR? I think you are on to something there doing all the coving first on rectangular staves, then taper/bevel in one operation on the slider. I've done a number of coopered stave things in the past but never a complete barrel, and definitely not a tapered one. I've assembled a few staves at a time where clamps still work okay, then used Dominos for alignment to put sections together. Sometimes band clamps come in handy for that sort of thing. ? Jonathan, so if it weighs a ton you think I'm fine with the 24" diameter? I'd love to avoid the headache of the ellipse angles. ? Mac, who's Steve?? ? ? My top will have no metal band around it. That's just asking for trouble. -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
Jason Holtz All Messages By This Member #138862 Mac,? Looks like Steven likes round stuff, but I don't see much that would be applicable. Thanks though! -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
Andy All Messages By This Member #138863 Hey Jason Looks like a really cool project. It seems like a balancing act between the width of the cove and the roundness of the overall base. ? I thought that one way that I might approach this would be a 4th axis on my cnc with indexing like a lathe for the coves.? Or failing that a jig to hold and turn the cylinder for the coves with pins in the bottom of the base to hold the piece in place.? If the base were really wide you could do it in pieces and assemble after.? Another way I thought of would be to power carve it, but that might be too rustic for your client.? Cutting the coves first on a shaper as well. But then you are left with less of a circle depending on how wide the coves are, right?? Barrel staves are pretty thin usually.? I’m really interested to see how you complete this project!? Andy ?? toggle quoted message Show quoted text On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 8:58?PM Jason Holtz via <jholtzy=[email protected]> wrote: Mac,? Looks like Steven likes round stuff, but I don't see much that would be applicable. Thanks though! -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture
Steven B All Messages By This Member #138865 Thanks for sharing, Mac. ? Jason, ? My approach would be to model this part up on the computer to figure out all of the jigging and fixtures. A circle will be far less headaches than an ellipse. Building in sections and then fitting all together seems like a manageable approach. ? Re: additional support in the long dimension. Are you concerned that it might sag on the long ends over time? ? I like the hollow torsion box idea to shave some weight and movement, especially with the metal band around it. ? Steve
Jason Holtz All Messages By This Member #138867 Thanks Steven, Yes a circle is certainly easier than an ellipse! No metal band around this top. It will be solid, customer picked the planks already. I am not concerned about sag, I was just thinking that spreading the load out with some outriggers might help if it's concentrated in an 18" or so circle in the center. Similar concept as the spider on commercial metal base tops. ? -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
Airtight: Clamps by Air Compression All Messages By This Member #138868 开云体育 Jason, kind of in the same vein these are some spoon holders that were made from leftovers from longer cylinders I used tapered tongue, and groove cutters with tilting shaper I also made some tapered cylinders for drum bodies. This one is White oak scoop Chesil carved. I was trained by a porcupine. Mac,, martin/campshure/co/llc mac campshure 7412 elmwood ave. middleton, wi 53562-3106 608-332-2330?cell airtightclamps@... Designing and building for 50 years toggle quoted message Show quoted text On Dec 19, 2024, at 7:21?AM, Jason Holtz via groups.io <jholtzy@...> wrote: ? Thanks Steven, Yes a circle is certainly easier than an ellipse! No metal band around this top. It will be solid, customer picked the planks already. I am not concerned about sag, I was just thinking that spreading the load out with some outriggers might help if it's concentrated in an 18" or so circle in the center. Similar concept as the spider on commercial metal base tops. ? -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
Jason Holtz All Messages By This Member #138874 Nice work Mac, Did you carve all the spoons too? I enjoy making spoons, but my wrists and elbows do not like me doing so. Small doses it's okay. ? Saw a video on IG yesterday of guy doing bent laminations of veneers over a PVC pipe. That would be another potential way? to make scalloped staves and not have the coving operation. I could just make a slider jig to hold them for taper/beveling. Probably even more work that way though... -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
imran All Messages By This Member #138875 开云体育 Hi Jason, This would be a fun project. KRP described the basic plan. The only thought I have is whether it would help align things better if you glued the staves in qtr circles before gluing them together. This assumes that the number of total staves are a multiple of 4. The 4 qtr should have 90 deg edges which can be trued with a simple jig given your dimensions. This should allow minor adjustments and should make the final glueup less stressful. Just my $0.02 Imran Malik toggle quoted message Show quoted text On Dec 20, 2024, at 8:01?AM, Jason Holtz via groups.io <jholtzy@...> wrote: ? Nice work Mac, Did you carve all the spoons too? I enjoy making spoons, but my wrists and elbows do not like me doing so. Small doses it's okay. ? Saw a video on IG yesterday of guy doing bent laminations of veneers over a PVC pipe. That would be another potential way? to make scalloped staves and not have the coving operation. I could just make a slider jig to hold them for taper/beveling. Probably even more work that way though... -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
mac campshure All Messages By This Member #138878 开云体育 Hi Jason, funny you should ask no not a spoon maker in the early days. I did make a hell of a lot of cutting boards out of out of yellow birch shotgun blanks used to buy for $.10 apiece from a fish pole factory that made handle out of them , beautiful stuff. I still have the cutting boards we use today. My my sweetheart, Nancy was the spoon maker back in the early days in the 70s. She used to do the Renaissance fairs in the north and the south of California and her sister was a seamstress so some of the spoons picture are of her work and I think the balance of them are from a spoon maker in the lower Peloponnesus on the outside border of the small village in Ladagia Greece my wife’s ancestral Village. Mac,,, martin/campshureco/llc mac campshure 7412 elmwood ave. middleton, wi 53562-3106 608-332-2330?cell airtightclamps@... Designing and building for 50 years toggle quoted message Show quoted text On Dec 20, 2024, at 7:20?AM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote: ? Hi Jason, This would be a fun project. KRP described the basic plan. The only thought I have is whether it would help align things better if you glued the staves in qtr circles before gluing them together. This assumes that the number of total staves are a multiple of 4. The 4 qtr should have 90 deg edges which can be trued with a simple jig given your dimensions. This should allow minor adjustments and should make the final glueup less stressful. Just my $0.02 Imran Malik On Dec 20, 2024, at 8:01?AM, Jason Holtz via groups.io <jholtzy@...> wrote: ? Nice work Mac, Did you carve all the spoons too? I enjoy making spoons, but my wrists and elbows do not like me doing so. Small doses it's okay. ? Saw a video on IG yesterday of guy doing bent laminations of veneers over a PVC pipe. That would be another potential way? to make scalloped staves and not have the coving operation. I could just make a slider jig to hold them for taper/beveling. Probably even more work that way though... -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
Jason Holtz All Messages By This Member #138880 Thanks Imran, When I have done staved construction for coopered things in the past, I always glue up whatever number of segments can easily be done with bar clamps before it gets squirrly and wants to collapse on itself. I then use dominos to index those assemblies and use a band clamp. Never had the occasion to go all the way around though. -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406

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