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Hello All, first time post here, looking for some help. I recently acquired a 2008 Felder AD951 Combination Jointer/Planer. After getting it hooked up it worked fantastic for about 2 months... then when I went to go start it up on the weekend it wouldn't fire up, no feedback at all from the start button. I then checked all the e-stops and the limit switches for the jointer bed to make sure they were all in the correct position, which they were. This led me to open up the electrical cover on the back to run some tests to see what it could be. All power leading to the machine was fine from the main shutoff switch, 208v across all 3 phases. After finding the electrical schematics I found that there were 4 fuses on the transformer, opened them up and found one blown on the primary side, no power to the 24v system. Replaced it with the appropriate 400 Ma fuse, turned power back on and the fuse beside it blew right away.. I then replaced that one, reset main power and the original fuse I replaced blew again. So there is some sort of electrical fault going on. I'm wondering where I should look next, or could it be the transformer itself has gone bad? Any help is appreciated, I've attached the electrical diagram, the fuses are connected to 1T1 in the top right corner, as well as a photo of the wiring itself and the transformer (the 2 fuses that are blowing are circled). Thanks!    
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I’ll offer a couple of ideas. ?First would be to test the 24V circuit to see if it’s been shorted to ground by a crimped wire somewhere in the micro-switch chain. ?A continuity tester of multimeter should give you an indication. ?I had fuse blowing issues similar to this after replacing the OEM version and discovered my replacements were not the slow-blow variety. ?That was quite a while ago so I can't give you specifics, but I do remember that finding the right fuse was something of a treasure hunt. ?
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
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On Mar 20, 2024, at 7:00?PM, Andrew <andrew@...> wrote:
Hello All, first time post here, looking for some help. I recently acquired a 2008 Felder AD951 Combination Jointer/Planer. After getting it hooked up it worked fantastic for about 2 months... then when I went to go start it up on the weekend it wouldn't fire up, no feedback at all from the start button. I then checked all the e-stops and the limit switches for the jointer bed to make sure they were all in the correct position, which they were. This led me to open up the electrical cover on the back to run some tests to see what it could be. All power leading to the machine was fine from the main shutoff switch, 208v across all 3 phases. After finding the electrical schematics I found that there were 4 fuses on the transformer, opened them up and found one blown on the primary side, no power to the 24v system. Replaced it with the appropriate 400 Ma fuse, turned power back on and the fuse beside it blew right away.. I then replaced that one, reset main power and the original fuse I replaced blew again.
So there is some sort of electrical fault going on. I'm wondering where I should look next, or could it be the transformer itself has gone bad? Any help is appreciated, I've attached the electrical diagram, the fuses are connected to 1T1 in the top right corner, as well as a photo of the wiring itself and the transformer (the 2 fuses that are blowing are circled). Thanks!
<IMG_4749 Large.jpeg><IMG_4750 Large.jpeg><IMG_4751 Large.jpeg><IMG_4758 Large.jpeg>
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Hi Andrew,
Can you please attach a higher resolution pic for schematic.
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On Mar 20, 2024, at 11:52?PM, Andrew <andrew@...> wrote: ?Hello All, first time post here, looking for some help. I recently acquired a 2008 Felder AD951 Combination Jointer/Planer. After getting it hooked up it worked fantastic for about 2 months... then when I went to go start it up on the weekend it wouldn't fire up, no feedback at all from the start button. I then checked all the e-stops and the limit switches for the jointer bed to make sure they were all in the correct position, which they were. This led me to open up the electrical cover on the back to run some tests to see what it could be. All power leading to the machine was fine from the main shutoff switch, 208v across all 3 phases. After finding the electrical schematics I found that there were 4 fuses on the transformer, opened them up and found one blown on the primary side, no power to the 24v system. Replaced it with the appropriate 400 Ma fuse, turned power back on and the fuse beside it blew right away.. I then replaced that one, reset main power and the original fuse I replaced blew again. So there is some sort of electrical fault going on. I'm wondering where I should look next, or could it be the transformer itself has gone bad? Any help is appreciated, I've attached the electrical diagram, the fuses are connected to 1T1 in the top right corner, as well as a photo of the wiring itself and the transformer (the 2 fuses that are blowing are circled). Thanks! <IMG_4749 Large.jpeg> <IMG_4750 Large.jpeg> <IMG_4751 Large.jpeg> <IMG_4758 Large.jpeg>
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My apologies, the upload must have ruined the resolution. May come out better if I upload right from my phone, let’s see:  
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Thankyou for the suggestions David, the 24V system has an intentional bridge to ground from the bus bar, I have continuity running through entire system to ground. The fuses I replaced them with were 400ma slow blow fuses right out of another felder machine, so should be a match. Upon closer inspection I noticed that the thermal overload relay wasn’t working properly, not tripping when I try to click the test switch, so I’m going to start with replacing that and see where that gets me, 2 week wait unfortunately to get a new one delivered.?
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Hi Andrew,
Not sure why, but the schematic is still not readable. You mention fuse beside each other as in physical location and I am assuming that these are the 2 fuses on each leg of the primary in the schematic. This could be a bad assumption. Anyhow, if that is the case, appears that primary has a short to ground.
With power completely off, remove both fuses on each leg of primary (in schematic these are above the transformer). Then measure the resistance of each side of the primary to machine chassis and also to electrical ground. If it is not open (high resistance) in all cases there is a short. It is either in the core (replace transformer) or check that the additional tap on the primary has not accidentally come in contact with ground.
If the primary is good then it gets a bit more complicated.
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On Mar 21, 2024, at 2:55?PM, Andrew <andrew@...> wrote: ?My apologies, the upload must have ruined the resolution. May come out better if I upload right from my phone, let’s see: <IMG_4758.jpeg> <IMG_4757.jpeg>
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Hi, remove the 2 secondary wires, then apply power and see if the fuse still fail.
If the fuses don’t fail, measure the secondary voltage, it should be close to 24 volts (AC).
That will let you know whether the transformer is OK
Regards, Rod
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Hello Imran, sorry for the delayed response, my girlfriend had a car accident and I had to focus on that for the last little while.?
I’ll try a different approach with the schematic, I’ve scanned as a pdf and I’ll attach that, hopefully that’ll fix the resolution issues. I feel it’s an important piece of information.
I do believe those two black upper wires are the primary legs, however reviewing the schematic has me confused.. 1F2 (primary leg) and 1F3 (secondary load) are spec’d for a 400ma fuse, 1F4 (the other primary leg on the diagram) is spec’d for a 2 amp fuse. On my transformer all 3 of the upper fuse connections are 400ma, and the lower one connected to the red wire is 2 amp. I know that I put the fuses back right where I found them when i was inspecting them. Not sure if they were put in wrong before I got the machine, the seal was broken so someone has been in the electrical box before me. Or perhaps the red wire is the second primary? Doesn’t line up with the diagram on top of the transformer though. Either way, results of the continuity test have no continuity from the top black wires to ground.. and the red wires do have continuity to ground, but that seems intentional as they’re bridged at the bus bar to ground by a jumped wire, looks like from the factory.?
Not sure if you caught it in one of my previous messages, but I noticed the thermal overload relay (1F1) wasn’t functioning at all when trying to trigger the test switch, and the reset button has no feedback. So I’ve ordered a replacement for that anyways, should be here in a few days. Do you reckon that could be part of the issue??
Thank you for your help so far,
Andrew
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Hi Andrew, ? Sorry to hear about the accident, hope your girlfriend is recovering well. ? There is a lot going on here and I think you should start fresh. ? - Here is my Dual51 transformer. It makes sense that primary side has equal and lower value (400mA) fuses and the 24VAC is the higher value (2A) fuse. I have checked 3 other schematics and they all match mine so I feel strongly that your machine documentation has an error. Most likely F2 & F3 labels got swapped in the schematic. You can get a confirmation from Felder.
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? - I would probe each fuse (label placement could mislead you) and confirm it’s connection and mark them accordingly and install appropriate size fuse.
- Remove the 2A fuse from 24VAC and apply power to the machine to confirm you have 24VAC (it could be as high as 29VAC).
- You can check your current FI by just checking continuity from 1 to 2, 3 to 4 and 5 to 6. It may still be bad (from protection standpoint) but it should run the motor unless contacts are open.
- If 24VAC is good, I would try to power up the machine with all fuses installed and a current or new F1.
? We can discuss further if you are still having issues. Good luck. ? Imran ? ?
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From: [email protected] On Behalf Of Andrew Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2024 1:17 AM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [FOG] AD951 Electrical Issues #servicing #wiring #electrical #jointerplaner ? Hello Imran, sorry for the delayed response, my girlfriend had a car accident and I had to focus on that for the last little while.?
I’ll try a different approach with the schematic, I’ve scanned as a pdf and I’ll attach that, hopefully that’ll fix the resolution issues. I feel it’s an important piece of information.
I do believe those two black upper wires are the primary legs, however reviewing the schematic has me confused.. 1F2 (primary leg) and 1F3 (secondary load) are spec’d for a 400ma fuse, 1F4 (the other primary leg on the diagram) is spec’d for a 2 amp fuse. On my transformer all 3 of the upper fuse connections are 400ma, and the lower one connected to the red wire is 2 amp. I know that I put the fuses back right where I found them when i was inspecting them. Not sure if they were put in wrong before I got the machine, the seal was broken so someone has been in the electrical box before me. Or perhaps the red wire is the second primary? Doesn’t line up with the diagram on top of the transformer though. Either way, results of the continuity test have no continuity from the top black wires to ground.. and the red wires do have continuity to ground, but that seems intentional as they’re bridged at the bus bar to ground by a jumped wire, looks like from the factory.?
Not sure if you caught it in one of my previous messages, but I noticed the thermal overload relay (1F1) wasn’t functioning at all when trying to trigger the test switch, and the reset button has no feedback. So I’ve ordered a replacement for that anyways, should be here in a few days. Do you reckon that could be part of the issue??
Thank you for your help so far,
Andrew
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Hi Imran, thank-you for the well wishes, she is doing better and should make a full recovery thankfully.?
1&2. Seems you are correct about the switched labels, continuity tests prove that 1F2 is L1 and 1F3 is L3, primary feed. 1F4 should be a 2A fuse on 24VAC. I reinstalled fuses and replaced the blown ones. I replaced 1F1 thermal overload relay aswell with a new one that is functioning properly… Applied power to see if that may have fixed it, but 1F3 immediately blew again.
3. Removed 1F4 2A fuse, replaced 1F3 fuse and applied power. 1F3 blew again immediately but tested for 24VAC anyways, no power (makes sense considering 1F3 was blown). Shut off the power again for testing.
4. Wasn’t quite sure what you were referring to on this, but I assumed you were talking about the 230VAC side of the terminal blocks, checked continuity, no continuity from 1 to 2, had continuity from 3 to 4, and no continuity again from 5 to 6. Please correct me if you meant something else.?
When power is applied to the machine all of the contactors remain open. If I manually depress contactor 1K1 the SMD inverter powers up and the planer feed runs, variable speed works fine. If I manually depress contactors 1K1 and 1K3 the cutter head power up and seems to run fine. I know this is probably not recommended but I wanted to ensure the motor’s and inverter were still functioning properly.?
?I double checked again that there was no short to ground on the 230VAC system, specifically from L3 considering that fuse keeps blowing. Still no continuity to ground on any leg, or from any of the fuses besides 1F4 on the 24VAC system?
Not quite sure what else could be causing it, any ideas of where to look next would be appreciated.?
Thankyou for the help
Best regards,?
Andrew
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My first assumption would be that the 24V circuit is shorted to ground. ?If you can reach the fuse base contact with a probe, check the continuity of that to chassis ground. ?If there is continuity then somewhere in the 24V wiring it is shorted to ground (could be a pinched wire). ?
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
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On Mar 30, 2024, at 10:19?PM, Andrew <andrew@...> wrote:
Hi Imran, thank-you for the well wishes, she is doing better and should make a full recovery thankfully.?
1&2. Seems you are correct about the switched labels, continuity tests prove that 1F2 is L1 and 1F3 is L3, primary feed. 1F4 should be a 2A fuse on 24VAC. I reinstalled fuses and replaced the blown ones. I replaced 1F1 thermal overload relay aswell with a new one that is functioning properly… Applied power to see if that may have fixed it, but 1F3 immediately blew again.
3. Removed 1F4 2A fuse, replaced 1F3 fuse and applied power. 1F3 blew again immediately but tested for 24VAC anyways, no power (makes sense considering 1F3 was blown). Shut off the power again for testing.
4. Wasn’t quite sure what you were referring to on this, but I assumed you were talking about the 230VAC side of the terminal blocks, checked continuity, no continuity from 1 to 2, had continuity from 3 to 4, and no continuity again from 5 to 6. Please correct me if you meant something else.?
When power is applied to the machine all of the contactors remain open. If I manually depress contactor 1K1 the SMD inverter powers up and the planer feed runs, variable speed works fine. If I manually depress contactors 1K1 and 1K3 the cutter head power up and seems to run fine. I know this is probably not recommended but I wanted to ensure the motor’s and inverter were still functioning properly.?
?I double checked again that there was no short to ground on the 230VAC system, specifically from L3 considering that fuse keeps blowing. Still no continuity to ground on any leg, or from any of the fuses besides 1F4 on the 24VAC system?
Not quite sure what else could be causing it, any ideas of where to look next would be appreciated.?
Thankyou for the help
Best regards,?
Andrew
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?Hi Andrew,
With your step 3 results there is something wrong with the transformer or in the small portion of the circuit/wiring between the fuses and transformer cores. I know you checked the transformer but it does not make sense that the primary side fuse is blowing with open secondary. I am also not sure what you mean by the red text in the following:
“Still no continuity to ground on any leg, or from any of the fuses besides 1F4 on the 24VAC system” I assume you have swapped the schematic labels and saying that you measured continuity between the 2 legs of the secondary. To be clear there should be no continuity from the Hi (24VAC) leg to low leg of the secondary. We need to define continuity and different meters may work differently. Let’s say, in our case continuity (short) means less than 1 ohm.
Can you confirm that you have done following to completely rule out the transformer. Keep in mind that a short on secondary can blow the fuse on the primary.
Transformer is an?isolation device. There should be no direct connection between primary and secondary. With all 4 connections open, there should also be no connection between each of the primary and secondary legs to the electrical ground or chassis ground (earth).
With machine power off. Remove?all 3 fuses around the transformer and disconnect the ground connection on the secondary. Confirm this isolation with continuity test. All of these tests should measure high resistance (open). While at it, measure primary and secondary resistances. I expect them to be between 10 and 50 ohms.
Step 4 was for 1F1 ( I wrote F1, my fault). It should have 3 normally closed contacts. I was asking to check that these are good and should have continuity (with power off) from input to output on the 3 sets of terminals.
You wrote, “If I manually depress contactor 1K1 the SMD inverter powers up and the planer feed runs, variable speed works fine.”
SMD inverter? Are you powering this with a VFD? If yes, can you share a schematic of your hookup. Can you also please share the entire schematic of the machine also.
Lastly, brake board is involved in starting your machine. However, we need to find out why the fuses are blowing.
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On Mar 31, 2024, at 1:19?AM, Andrew <andrew@...> wrote: ? Hi Imran, thank-you for the well wishes, she is doing better and should make a full recovery thankfully.?
1&2. Seems you are correct about the switched labels, continuity tests prove that 1F2 is L1 and 1F3 is L3, primary feed. 1F4 should be a 2A fuse on 24VAC. I reinstalled fuses and replaced the blown ones. I replaced 1F1 thermal overload relay aswell with a new one that is functioning properly… Applied power to see if that may have fixed it, but 1F3 immediately blew again.
3. Removed 1F4 2A fuse, replaced 1F3 fuse and applied power. 1F3 blew again immediately but tested for 24VAC anyways, no power (makes sense considering 1F3 was blown). Shut off the power again for testing.
4. Wasn’t quite sure what you were referring to on this, but I assumed you were talking about the 230VAC side of the terminal blocks, checked continuity, no continuity from 1 to 2, had continuity from 3 to 4, and no continuity again from 5 to 6. Please correct me if you meant something else.?
When power is applied to the machine all of the contactors remain open. If I manually depress contactor 1K1 the SMD inverter powers up and the planer feed runs, variable speed works fine. If I manually depress contactors 1K1 and 1K3 the cutter head power up and seems to run fine. I know this is probably not recommended but I wanted to ensure the motor’s and inverter were still functioning properly.?
?I double checked again that there was no short to ground on the 230VAC system, specifically from L3 considering that fuse keeps blowing. Still no continuity to ground on any leg, or from any of the fuses besides 1F4 on the 24VAC system?
Not quite sure what else could be causing it, any ideas of where to look next would be appreciated.?
Thankyou for the help
Best regards,?
Andrew
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Hi Imran,
I swapped the label's accordingly so when referring to 1F4 I am referring to the secondary fuse, my apologies I should have clarified. I've updated a PDF of all the schematics that I received with the machine, I should note that my machine does not have digi-drive or power-drive. The continuity I was referring to was from each of the secondary legs to eachother, as well as to the chassis ground. both giving readings of 0.5-1 ohms.
I disconnected the ground connection on the secondary, I can confirm that it is isolated from ground, no longer continuity from 24v to the machine chassis. I then removed all fuses and probed the legs of the primary, I got a reading of 60 ohms between 1f3 and 1f2, 39 ohms between 1f3 and third leg of primary, and 21.5 ohms between 1f2 and third leg of primary. I got an open reading between each of those to the secondary legs. Across the secondary legs I got a reading of 0.5 ohms, which I'm guessing indicates a short if I should be should be expecting 10 ohms minimum. I disconnected the wire from the low leg of the secondary to ensure I was isolating the transformer itself and I still got the same low resistance reading across the secondary legs. Could this mean the transformer is blown?
step 4, ok that makes sense, I was looking all around the schematic for FI lol. I checked and yes I have continuity on both the new relay and the old relay from 1 to 2, 3 to 4, and 5 to 6. so seems the older relay still had normally closed contacts and was allowing current through.
When I said the SMD Inverter I was referring to the Lenze frequency inverter inside the machine, which seems to run the planer feed motor and variable speed, 2E1 on the schematic.
Thanks for the reply!
best regards,
Andrew
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Hi Andrew,
Good job on probing and thanks for the updated schematic. Did you use adobe for updating or there are free options? Sorry I did not make the connection to the variable freq drive, which is also used in Dual 51. I have sent you a private message requesting some pics of transformer assembly. Please check you junk folder in case you don’t see it in your inbox.
Yes, appears that the secondary is shorted. Hopefully, Felder has a replacement transformer in stock and at a reasonable price. You could purchase one from elsewhere
but may need to figure out the packaging/installation aspect.
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I did a quick search but did not find a reputable source for one that has a DIN mount. I am sure they exist but will take more time to find. Here is one which has offers finger guards and fuse options as accessories.
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Another option is this but not in stock:
however this is just as good and in stock:
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I would not tell you what to do but if it was for my machine and if Felder option approached 3X in price, I would try one similar to above and integrate the fuses. There are many options for 50VA, 230VAC to 24VAC. For USA a good input voltage selection would be 208/230/240 or 208/230 or 208/240. A Class 2 transformer will have a max limited output of 100VA. You don’t need a class2 transformer but it will work.
On Apr 2, 2024, at 3:19?AM, Andrew <andrew@...> wrote:
Hi Imran, I swapped the label's accordingly so when referring to 1F4 I am referring to the secondary fuse, my apologies I should have clarified. I've updated a PDF of all the schematics that I received with the machine, I should note that my machine does not have digi-drive or power-drive. The continuity I was referring to was from each of the secondary legs to eachother, as well as to the chassis ground. both giving readings of 0.5-1 ohms. I disconnected the ground connection on the secondary, I can confirm that it is isolated from ground, no longer continuity from 24v to the machine chassis. I then removed all fuses and probed the legs of the primary, I got a reading of 60 ohms between 1f3 and 1f2, 39 ohms between 1f3 and third leg of primary, and 21.5 ohms between 1f2 and third leg of primary. I got an open reading between each of those to the secondary legs. Across the secondary legs I got a reading of 0.5 ohms, which I'm guessing indicates a short if I should be should be expecting 10 ohms minimum. I disconnected the wire from the low leg of the secondary to ensure I was isolating the transformer itself and I still got the same low resistance reading across the secondary legs. Could this mean the transformer is blown? step 4, ok that makes sense, I was looking all around the schematic for FI lol. I checked and yes I have continuity on both the new relay and the old relay from 1 to 2, 3 to 4, and 5 to 6. so seems the older relay still had normally closed contacts and was allowing current through. When I said the SMD Inverter I was referring to the Lenze frequency inverter inside the machine, which seems to run the planer feed motor and variable speed, 2E1 on the schematic. Thanks for the reply! best regards, Andrew
<AD951 Schematic.pdf>
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Hello all,
just coming back to update on what the issue was, it sucks when people solve a problem and don’t come back to share with a forum about the solution.. so posting here for anyone that is experiencing a similar problem in the future.
It did end up being a blown transformer, I’d like to give a massive Thankyou to Imran and everyone else here for helping me with the troubleshooting process, I’d probably still be trying to figure it out otherwise. Kudos to you guys for all the help that you supply this group.?
Good suggestion on the aftermarket transformer, I considered it after Felder didn’t have the part in stock and had quite a long lead time to get it in (about 6 weeks). After weighing the options I decided to order the part from felder with expedited DHL shipping as I needed the machine running again asap, I think it all came to about $250 CAD. After weighing in the cost of the aftermarket transformer with a case and thermal epoxy I figured the felder part was the best option.?
Still not quite sure what caused the transformer to blow considering it didn’t stop working while I was using the machine. My best idea is that the thermal overload relay contacts got welded shut, causing it to not function anymore allowing a power surge zapped the transformer. I still need to take them apart and look. In that case I’m very thankful for the fuses on the transformer or I’m sure I’d be replacing a lot more components.?
Once the transformer came in I got it installed and the machine was running again in 15 minutes.
Best regards and thanks again!
Andrew
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Hi Imran,
I used Acrobat Pro to modify the schematic, I have a subscription as I use it for my invoicing. If you need anything altered feel free to email it over to me and I’d be happy to modify what you need.
Best regards,
Andrew
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Hi Andrew,
Glad the machine is up and running. Regarding testing thermal overload relay, there should be a test button. The contacts for the 3 phases are normally closed. You can verify this with multimeter in continuity mode. Use one probe on the phase input contact of the relay and the other on the output contact for same phase. Meter should beep or show near zero resistance in each case. But when the test button is pressed the same two points should not beep or show very high resistance (usual meter will show OL). Obviously, there should be high resistance between phases as well.
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On May 4, 2024, at 5:49?PM, Andrew via groups.io <andrew@...> wrote: ? Hello all,
just coming back to update on what the issue was, it sucks when people solve a problem and don’t come back to share with a forum about the solution.. so posting here for anyone that is experiencing a similar problem in the future.
It did end up being a blown transformer, I’d like to give a massive Thankyou to Imran and everyone else here for helping me with the troubleshooting process, I’d probably still be trying to figure it out otherwise. Kudos to you guys for all the help that you supply this group.?
Good suggestion on the aftermarket transformer, I considered it after Felder didn’t have the part in stock and had quite a long lead time to get it in (about 6 weeks). After weighing the options I decided to order the part from felder with expedited DHL shipping as I needed the machine running again asap, I think it all came to about $250 CAD. After weighing in the cost of the aftermarket transformer with a case and thermal epoxy I figured the felder part was the best option.?
Still not quite sure what caused the transformer to blow considering it didn’t stop working while I was using the machine. My best idea is that the thermal overload relay contacts got welded shut, causing it to not function anymore allowing a power surge zapped the transformer. I still need to take them apart and look. In that case I’m very thankful for the fuses on the transformer or I’m sure I’d be replacing a lot more components.?
Once the transformer came in I got it installed and the machine was running again in 15 minutes.
Best regards and thanks again!
Andrew
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David P. Best
imran
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