|
Just browsing around through magazines and online recently i was reading about the pantorouter shown here -
It got me thinking about my pending order i have with felder for a few accessories i need to get for my C3 31 combo unit and about the slot mortiser attachment (501-117) and overlap of functionality along with floor space consumption.? Does anyone own either the slot mortiser attachment for a hammer or Felder combo unit or freestanding model and has any comparative understanding between the functions it can perform with the pantorouter?? I understand conceptually the pantorouter uses templates that are scaled in order to achieve the desired cuts but a well marked out set of parts and experienced operator seems to be able to do the same job with the hammer slot mortiser it seems??
Seems to me conserving floor space and having that attached/integrated into my combo machine makes more sense than taking up more shop space with a dedicated cabinet and smaller router spindle running a pantorouter in the same workshop.? Or are there differences or advantages im not aware of for the types of joinery it can perform.
Thanks
Nathan
|
Ohh dear,
The cat has been released from the bag...? how long will it take for the debate to begin.
I am waiting for what is to come with some delicious popcorn over in the corner...
PK
|
If you are a tool enthusiast, you need both plus a multirouter. All 3 are a bit different.
I'm not there is a fair comparison between our fd250 and our pantorouter other than maybe....pantorouter is small and more suitable for true joinery parts tasks, male and female matches, small parts at a time.? ?fd250 is large, heavy, and can hold the whole door or furniture assembly while mortising or drilling but thats its only function. It's like comparing a golf cart to a bulldozer maybe?
On Fri, Feb 16, 2024, 1:34?AM PK < pk@...> wrote: Ohh dear,
The cat has been released from the bag...? how long will it take for the debate to begin.
I am waiting for what is to come with some delicious popcorn over in the corner...
PK
|
Hi Nathan,?
?It really depends on what kind of work you're performing. I'd separate the free-standing mortising units from the bolt-on mortising units, since the free-standing mortising units have a fixed table which a movable spindle, whereas on the bolt-on units the spindle is fixed and the table moves.?
?One way to think/visualize the machines that might be helpful are the following:?
?RPM:?
?-- FD-250, Bolt-on Mortiser: Relatively low RPM, ~3,000
?-- Multirouter, Pantorouter: Relatively high RPM, ~15k-25k
?What moves, what is fixed?
?-- FD-250, Pantorouter: Fixed table, movable spindle
?-- Bolt-on mortiser, Multi-Router: Fixed spindle, movable table
?Support:
?-- FD-250: Fixed, cast-iron table with F-channels to facilitate use of Felder table extensions
?-- Bolt-on mortiser, Multi-Router, Pantorouter: No native support for table extensions, though you could conceivably use roller stands or other independent work supports
?"Programability":
?-- FD-250, Bolt-on Mosritser: Adjustable stops for X and Y travel, Z travel controlled via hand wheel
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: Adjustable stops for X, Y, and Z travel, all controlled independently with levers
?Templates:
?-- FD-250, Bolt-on Mortiser: No Templates for joinery
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: Templates available for joinery
?Line drilling:?
?-- FD-250, Bolt-On mortiser for Felder machines: Template bars available for precise hole drilling
?-- Bolt-On mortiser for Hammer, Multi-Router, Pantorouter: No line boring templates
?Clamping capacity:
?-- FD-250, Bolt-On Mortiser: Chuck with clamping capacity up to 20mm
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: Limited to your collet capacity, usually 1/4", 8mm, and 1/2"
?Rotation:
?-- FD-250: Forward/Reverse
?-- Bolt-On Mortiser: "Left Hand" rotation
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: "Right Hand" rotation
? Other Features:?
?-- FD-250: Available with a hollow chisel mortising function
?Ultimately, I believe that the consensus is that the FD-250 and the Bolt-on Mortiser have the edge in terms of running larger/longer tooling, whereas the Multi-Router and Pantorouter have the advantage in terms of joinery tasks.?
?Circling back to "it depends on what you're doing", I'd suggest that if you're mostly building doors/windows, I'd recommend the FD-250 or Bolt-on Mortising unit, whereas if you're building furniture or chairs, you may be better served with the Multi-Router or Pantorouter.?
?For myself, I opted for the FD-250 with the two speed, reversible three phase motor, with the hollow chisel mortising package, as well as the line boring/doweling package. I build a lot of doors and windows, and I really appreciate the ability to expand the table surface with table extensions to support a fully assembled door for mortising/drilling for the handle set.?
?In terms of shop space, now that I've been using my FD-250 for awhile I'm finding I haven't used my drill press since the mortiser arrived, so I'm looking to sell the drill press.?
?I'm sure I've missed something above, but hopefully the above gives you some ideas in terms of identifying what your needs are, which in turn would drive your machine selection.?
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
|
Tom,
Very good analysis; thanks for sharing your experience and perspective.
Regards,
Jacques
|
Hi Tom,
?
Whhhaaattttt! an email with multirouter and pantorouter without any mud slinging, it is indeed ?refreshing ?
?
A very good way to skin this cat as they all have their usefulness. I have read here that the bolt-on mortiser has significant bore depth limitation. Not sure if it was an operator issue or if it is indeed true. I would definitely confirm if I was buying one.
?
I may have missed if you mentioned that FD250 has stops for repeatable boring/mortising. I believe they can extend to 8¡¯ on one side or ?less if needed on both sides.
?
Who about ease of work holding? Are there differences here?
?
Thanks again for the comparison.
On Feb 16, 2024, at 9:07?AM, Tom Gensmer <tom@...> wrote:
Hi Nathan,?
?It really depends on what kind of work you're performing. I'd separate the free-standing mortising units from the bolt-on mortising units, since the free-standing mortising units have a fixed table which a movable spindle, whereas on the bolt-on units the spindle is fixed and the table moves.?
?One way to think/visualize the machines that might be helpful are the following:?
?RPM:?
?-- FD-250, Bolt-on Mortiser: Relatively low RPM, ~3,000
?-- Multirouter, Pantorouter: Relatively high RPM, ~15k-25k
?What moves, what is fixed?
?-- FD-250, Pantorouter: Fixed table, movable spindle
?-- Bolt-on mortiser, Multi-Router: Fixed spindle, movable table
?Support:
?-- FD-250: Fixed, cast-iron table with F-channels to facilitate use of Felder table extensions
?-- Bolt-on mortiser, Multi-Router, Pantorouter: No native support for table extensions, though you could conceivably use roller stands or other independent work supports
?"Programability":
?-- FD-250, Bolt-on Mosritser: Adjustable stops for X and Y travel, Z travel controlled via hand wheel
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: Adjustable stops for X, Y, and Z travel, all controlled independently with levers
?Templates:
?-- FD-250, Bolt-on Mortiser: No Templates for joinery
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: Templates available for joinery
?Line drilling:?
?-- FD-250, Bolt-On mortiser for Felder machines: Template bars available for precise hole drilling
?-- Bolt-On mortiser for Hammer, Multi-Router, Pantorouter: No line boring templates
?Clamping capacity:
?-- FD-250, Bolt-On Mortiser: Chuck with clamping capacity up to 20mm
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: Limited to your collet capacity, usually 1/4", 8mm, and 1/2"
?Rotation:
?-- FD-250: Forward/Reverse
?-- Bolt-On Mortiser: "Left Hand" rotation
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: "Right Hand" rotation
? Other Features:?
?-- FD-250: Available with a hollow chisel mortising function
?Ultimately, I believe that the consensus is that the FD-250 and the Bolt-on Mortiser have the edge in terms of running larger/longer tooling, whereas the Multi-Router and Pantorouter have the advantage in terms of joinery tasks.?
?Circling back to "it depends on what you're doing", I'd suggest that if you're mostly building doors/windows, I'd recommend the FD-250 or Bolt-on Mortising unit, whereas if you're building furniture or chairs, you may be better served with the Multi-Router or Pantorouter.?
?For myself, I opted for the FD-250 with the two speed, reversible three phase motor, with the hollow chisel mortising package, as well as the line boring/doweling package. I build a lot of doors and windows, and I really appreciate the ability to expand the table surface with table extensions to support a fully assembled door for mortising/drilling for the handle set.?
?In terms of shop space, now that I've been using my FD-250 for awhile I'm finding I haven't used my drill press since the mortiser arrived, so I'm looking to sell the drill press.?
?I'm sure I've missed something above, but hopefully the above gives you some ideas in terms of identifying what your needs are, which in turn would drive your machine selection.?
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
|
I have a CF741 combo and a mortiser on a cart so it can be detached and stored in a corner when not needed.? It works well; solid, repeatable, accurate. Dust collection is marginal.? Expect a shallow learning curve depending on the bit you use and how to hog out and then finish to size. I use routers for cutting to patterns. I have an extra, new in a box, rolling carriage that I would give away to a good home.  
|
Hi Jonathan,
Can you comment on the depth of bore possible with mortiser? Someone mentioned, that depth achieved with the same bit length is ¡°significantly¡± less than the same bit on other mortisers.?
Following from Felder site. I assume this would be less for smaller dia, shorter bits:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Feb 16, 2024, at 9:55?AM, Jonathan Smith <jonathan.smith@...> wrote: ?I have a CF741 combo and a mortiser on a cart so it can be detached and stored in a corner when not needed.? It works well; solid, repeatable, accurate. Dust collection is marginal.? Expect a shallow learning curve depending on the bit you use and how to hog out and then finish to size. I use routers for cutting to patterns. I have an extra, new in a box, rolling carriage that I would give away to a good home. <dummyfile.0.part> <dummyfile.1.part>
|
Hi Imran,?
?Yes, I forgot to mention the stop system available for the FD-250, which allows for repeat drilling/mortising operations where the material extends beyond the table surface.?
?A neat trick I discovered on my FD-250 involves using the dowel boring jig, in conjunction with the little cast iron indexing block. I found that, with a little tweaking, the 16mm drilling template indexes perfectly with the left- and right- positions for the little cast iron indexing block. This is really handy for dowel boring for doors/windows.?
?Admittedly, the FD-250 is a niche product, but I'm getting a lot of use out of it, not quite daily but definitely several times per week.?
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
|
Hi Tom, Thanks for the update. I don¡¯t quite follow your trick, maybe when you do it next you can share a pic. Here is my trick to get repeatable mortice lengths. If the stock is large, with multiple lengths of mortices, I rather finish each piece verses rotate stock on the machine for each specific mortice length. Just cut the needed length of this pipe to reduce the horizontal travel. I had to glue two pieces to get the height to hit the center bolt squarely. I set the horizontal stop for the longest mortice and then inserted these pieces (on the inside of the stops) to get shorter mortices. Worked really well. Imran From: [email protected] On Behalf Of Tom Gensmer Sent: Friday, February 16, 2024 6:46 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [FOG] Mortising unit v Pantorouter Hi Imran, Yes, I forgot to mention the stop system available for the FD-250, which allows for repeat drilling/mortising operations where the material extends beyond the table surface. A neat trick I discovered on my FD-250 involves using the dowel boring jig, in conjunction with the little cast iron indexing block. I found that, with a little tweaking, the 16mm drilling template indexes perfectly with the left- and right- positions for the little cast iron indexing block. This is really handy for dowel boring for doors/windows. Admittedly, the FD-250 is a niche product, but I'm getting a lot of use out of it, not quite daily but definitely several times per week. -- Tom Gensmer Heritage Home Renewals, LLC Minneapolis, MN
|
It s true that the Felder ¡°bolt on¡± mortiser has serious depth limitations.? Kind regards,Brian D. Milidrag
Hi Tim,
Whhhaaattttt! an email with multirouter and pantorouter without any mud slinging, it is indeed ?refreshing ?
A very good way to skin this cat as they all have their usefulness. I have read here that the bolt-on mortiser has significant bore depth limitation. Not sure if it was an operator issue or if it is indeed true. I would definitely confirm if I was buying one.
I may have missed if you mentioned that FD250 has stops for repeatable boring/mortising. I believe they can extend to 8¡¯ on one side or ?less if needed on both sides.
Who about ease of work holding? Are there differences here?
Thanks again for the comparison. On Feb 16, 2024, at 9:07?AM, Tom Gensmer < tom@...> wrote: ?Hi Nathan,?
?It really depends on what kind of work you're performing. I'd separate the free-standing mortising units from the bolt-on mortising units, since the free-standing mortising units have a fixed table which a movable spindle, whereas on the bolt-on units the spindle is fixed and the table moves.?
?One way to think/visualize the machines that might be helpful are the following:?
?RPM:?
?-- FD-250, Bolt-on Mortiser: Relatively low RPM, ~3,000
?-- Multirouter, Pantorouter: Relatively high RPM, ~15k-25k
?What moves, what is fixed?
?-- FD-250, Pantorouter: Fixed table, movable spindle
?-- Bolt-on mortiser, Multi-Router: Fixed spindle, movable table
?Support:
?-- FD-250: Fixed, cast-iron table with F-channels to facilitate use of Felder table extensions
?-- Bolt-on mortiser, Multi-Router, Pantorouter: No native support for table extensions, though you could conceivably use roller stands or other independent work supports
?"Programability":
?-- FD-250, Bolt-on Mosritser: Adjustable stops for X and Y travel, Z travel controlled via hand wheel
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: Adjustable stops for X, Y, and Z travel, all controlled independently with levers
?Templates:
?-- FD-250, Bolt-on Mortiser: No Templates for joinery
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: Templates available for joinery
?Line drilling:?
?-- FD-250, Bolt-On mortiser for Felder machines: Template bars available for precise hole drilling
?-- Bolt-On mortiser for Hammer, Multi-Router, Pantorouter: No line boring templates
?Clamping capacity:
?-- FD-250, Bolt-On Mortiser: Chuck with clamping capacity up to 20mm
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: Limited to your collet capacity, usually 1/4", 8mm, and 1/2"
?Rotation:
?-- FD-250: Forward/Reverse
?-- Bolt-On Mortiser: "Left Hand" rotation
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: "Right Hand" rotation
? Other Features:?
?-- FD-250: Available with a hollow chisel mortising function
?Ultimately, I believe that the consensus is that the FD-250 and the Bolt-on Mortiser have the edge in terms of running larger/longer tooling, whereas the Multi-Router and Pantorouter have the advantage in terms of joinery tasks.?
?Circling back to "it depends on what you're doing", I'd suggest that if you're mostly building doors/windows, I'd recommend the FD-250 or Bolt-on Mortising unit, whereas if you're building furniture or chairs, you may be better served with the Multi-Router or Pantorouter.?
?For myself, I opted for the FD-250 with the two speed, reversible three phase motor, with the hollow chisel mortising package, as well as the line boring/doweling package. I build a lot of doors and windows, and I really appreciate the ability to expand the table surface with table extensions to support a fully assembled door for mortising/drilling for the handle set.?
?In terms of shop space, now that I've been using my FD-250 for awhile I'm finding I haven't used my drill press since the mortiser arrived, so I'm looking to sell the drill press.?
?I'm sure I've missed something above, but hopefully the above gives you some ideas in terms of identifying what your needs are, which in turn would drive your machine selection.?
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
|
Jonathan,
I find the cart to be very top heavy and would have gotten the FD250 had I known what I know today. Kind regards,Brian D. Milidrag
It s true that the Felder ¡°bolt on¡± mortiser has serious depth limitations.? Kind regards,Brian D. Milidrag
Hi Tim,
Whhhaaattttt! an email with multirouter and pantorouter without any mud slinging, it is indeed ?refreshing ?
A very good way to skin this cat as they all have their usefulness. I have read here that the bolt-on mortiser has significant bore depth limitation. Not sure if it was an operator issue or if it is indeed true. I would definitely confirm if I was buying one.
I may have missed if you mentioned that FD250 has stops for repeatable boring/mortising. I believe they can extend to 8¡¯ on one side or ?less if needed on both sides.
Who about ease of work holding? Are there differences here?
Thanks again for the comparison. On Feb 16, 2024, at 9:07?AM, Tom Gensmer < tom@...> wrote: ?Hi Nathan,?
?It really depends on what kind of work you're performing. I'd separate the free-standing mortising units from the bolt-on mortising units, since the free-standing mortising units have a fixed table which a movable spindle, whereas on the bolt-on units the spindle is fixed and the table moves.?
?One way to think/visualize the machines that might be helpful are the following:?
?RPM:?
?-- FD-250, Bolt-on Mortiser: Relatively low RPM, ~3,000
?-- Multirouter, Pantorouter: Relatively high RPM, ~15k-25k
?What moves, what is fixed?
?-- FD-250, Pantorouter: Fixed table, movable spindle
?-- Bolt-on mortiser, Multi-Router: Fixed spindle, movable table
?Support:
?-- FD-250: Fixed, cast-iron table with F-channels to facilitate use of Felder table extensions
?-- Bolt-on mortiser, Multi-Router, Pantorouter: No native support for table extensions, though you could conceivably use roller stands or other independent work supports
?"Programability":
?-- FD-250, Bolt-on Mosritser: Adjustable stops for X and Y travel, Z travel controlled via hand wheel
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: Adjustable stops for X, Y, and Z travel, all controlled independently with levers
?Templates:
?-- FD-250, Bolt-on Mortiser: No Templates for joinery
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: Templates available for joinery
?Line drilling:?
?-- FD-250, Bolt-On mortiser for Felder machines: Template bars available for precise hole drilling
?-- Bolt-On mortiser for Hammer, Multi-Router, Pantorouter: No line boring templates
?Clamping capacity:
?-- FD-250, Bolt-On Mortiser: Chuck with clamping capacity up to 20mm
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: Limited to your collet capacity, usually 1/4", 8mm, and 1/2"
?Rotation:
?-- FD-250: Forward/Reverse
?-- Bolt-On Mortiser: "Left Hand" rotation
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: "Right Hand" rotation
? Other Features:?
?-- FD-250: Available with a hollow chisel mortising function
?Ultimately, I believe that the consensus is that the FD-250 and the Bolt-on Mortiser have the edge in terms of running larger/longer tooling, whereas the Multi-Router and Pantorouter have the advantage in terms of joinery tasks.?
?Circling back to "it depends on what you're doing", I'd suggest that if you're mostly building doors/windows, I'd recommend the FD-250 or Bolt-on Mortising unit, whereas if you're building furniture or chairs, you may be better served with the Multi-Router or Pantorouter.?
?For myself, I opted for the FD-250 with the two speed, reversible three phase motor, with the hollow chisel mortising package, as well as the line boring/doweling package. I build a lot of doors and windows, and I really appreciate the ability to expand the table surface with table extensions to support a fully assembled door for mortising/drilling for the handle set.?
?In terms of shop space, now that I've been using my FD-250 for awhile I'm finding I haven't used my drill press since the mortiser arrived, so I'm looking to sell the drill press.?
?I'm sure I've missed something above, but hopefully the above gives you some ideas in terms of identifying what your needs are, which in turn would drive your machine selection.?
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
|
Imran,
Nowhere near 6 inches and change at least with the Felder bits. Probably closer to 3¡±¡I can check travel tomorrow and give you an exact number Kind regards,Brian D. Milidrag
Jonathan,
I find the cart to be very top heavy and would have gotten the FD250 had I known what I know today. Kind regards,Brian D. Milidrag
It s true that the Felder ¡°bolt on¡± mortiser has serious depth limitations.? Kind regards,Brian D. Milidrag
Hi Tim,
Whhhaaattttt! an email with multirouter and pantorouter without any mud slinging, it is indeed ?refreshing ?
A very good way to skin this cat as they all have their usefulness. I have read here that the bolt-on mortiser has significant bore depth limitation. Not sure if it was an operator issue or if it is indeed true. I would definitely confirm if I was buying one.
I may have missed if you mentioned that FD250 has stops for repeatable boring/mortising. I believe they can extend to 8¡¯ on one side or ?less if needed on both sides.
Who about ease of work holding? Are there differences here?
Thanks again for the comparison. On Feb 16, 2024, at 9:07?AM, Tom Gensmer < tom@...> wrote: ?Hi Nathan,?
?It really depends on what kind of work you're performing. I'd separate the free-standing mortising units from the bolt-on mortising units, since the free-standing mortising units have a fixed table which a movable spindle, whereas on the bolt-on units the spindle is fixed and the table moves.?
?One way to think/visualize the machines that might be helpful are the following:?
?RPM:?
?-- FD-250, Bolt-on Mortiser: Relatively low RPM, ~3,000
?-- Multirouter, Pantorouter: Relatively high RPM, ~15k-25k
?What moves, what is fixed?
?-- FD-250, Pantorouter: Fixed table, movable spindle
?-- Bolt-on mortiser, Multi-Router: Fixed spindle, movable table
?Support:
?-- FD-250: Fixed, cast-iron table with F-channels to facilitate use of Felder table extensions
?-- Bolt-on mortiser, Multi-Router, Pantorouter: No native support for table extensions, though you could conceivably use roller stands or other independent work supports
?"Programability":
?-- FD-250, Bolt-on Mosritser: Adjustable stops for X and Y travel, Z travel controlled via hand wheel
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: Adjustable stops for X, Y, and Z travel, all controlled independently with levers
?Templates:
?-- FD-250, Bolt-on Mortiser: No Templates for joinery
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: Templates available for joinery
?Line drilling:?
?-- FD-250, Bolt-On mortiser for Felder machines: Template bars available for precise hole drilling
?-- Bolt-On mortiser for Hammer, Multi-Router, Pantorouter: No line boring templates
?Clamping capacity:
?-- FD-250, Bolt-On Mortiser: Chuck with clamping capacity up to 20mm
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: Limited to your collet capacity, usually 1/4", 8mm, and 1/2"
?Rotation:
?-- FD-250: Forward/Reverse
?-- Bolt-On Mortiser: "Left Hand" rotation
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: "Right Hand" rotation
? Other Features:?
?-- FD-250: Available with a hollow chisel mortising function
?Ultimately, I believe that the consensus is that the FD-250 and the Bolt-on Mortiser have the edge in terms of running larger/longer tooling, whereas the Multi-Router and Pantorouter have the advantage in terms of joinery tasks.?
?Circling back to "it depends on what you're doing", I'd suggest that if you're mostly building doors/windows, I'd recommend the FD-250 or Bolt-on Mortising unit, whereas if you're building furniture or chairs, you may be better served with the Multi-Router or Pantorouter.?
?For myself, I opted for the FD-250 with the two speed, reversible three phase motor, with the hollow chisel mortising package, as well as the line boring/doweling package. I build a lot of doors and windows, and I really appreciate the ability to expand the table surface with table extensions to support a fully assembled door for mortising/drilling for the handle set.?
?In terms of shop space, now that I've been using my FD-250 for awhile I'm finding I haven't used my drill press since the mortiser arrived, so I'm looking to sell the drill press.?
?I'm sure I've missed something above, but hopefully the above gives you some ideas in terms of identifying what your needs are, which in turn would drive your machine selection.?
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
|
Hi Brian,
Thanks for confirming this. It really is for the knowledge of the forum. It was several yrs ago, IIRC, the poster mentioned that it was a serious issue with smaller bits as they are not long.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Feb 16, 2024, at 10:12?PM, Brian <brian.milidrag@...> wrote: ? Imran,
Nowhere near 6 inches and change at least with the Felder bits. Probably closer to 3¡±¡I can check travel tomorrow and give you an exact number Kind regards,Brian D. Milidrag
Jonathan,
I find the cart to be very top heavy and would have gotten the FD250 had I known what I know today. Kind regards,Brian D. Milidrag
It s true that the Felder ¡°bolt on¡± mortiser has serious depth limitations.? Kind regards,Brian D. Milidrag
Hi Tim,
Whhhaaattttt! an email with multirouter and pantorouter without any mud slinging, it is indeed ?refreshing ?
A very good way to skin this cat as they all have their usefulness. I have read here that the bolt-on mortiser has significant bore depth limitation. Not sure if it was an operator issue or if it is indeed true. I would definitely confirm if I was buying one.
I may have missed if you mentioned that FD250 has stops for repeatable boring/mortising. I believe they can extend to 8¡¯ on one side or ?less if needed on both sides.
Who about ease of work holding? Are there differences here?
Thanks again for the comparison. On Feb 16, 2024, at 9:07?AM, Tom Gensmer < tom@...> wrote: ?Hi Nathan,?
?It really depends on what kind of work you're performing. I'd separate the free-standing mortising units from the bolt-on mortising units, since the free-standing mortising units have a fixed table which a movable spindle, whereas on the bolt-on units the spindle is fixed and the table moves.?
?One way to think/visualize the machines that might be helpful are the following:?
?RPM:?
?-- FD-250, Bolt-on Mortiser: Relatively low RPM, ~3,000
?-- Multirouter, Pantorouter: Relatively high RPM, ~15k-25k
?What moves, what is fixed?
?-- FD-250, Pantorouter: Fixed table, movable spindle
?-- Bolt-on mortiser, Multi-Router: Fixed spindle, movable table
?Support:
?-- FD-250: Fixed, cast-iron table with F-channels to facilitate use of Felder table extensions
?-- Bolt-on mortiser, Multi-Router, Pantorouter: No native support for table extensions, though you could conceivably use roller stands or other independent work supports
?"Programability":
?-- FD-250, Bolt-on Mosritser: Adjustable stops for X and Y travel, Z travel controlled via hand wheel
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: Adjustable stops for X, Y, and Z travel, all controlled independently with levers
?Templates:
?-- FD-250, Bolt-on Mortiser: No Templates for joinery
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: Templates available for joinery
?Line drilling:?
?-- FD-250, Bolt-On mortiser for Felder machines: Template bars available for precise hole drilling
?-- Bolt-On mortiser for Hammer, Multi-Router, Pantorouter: No line boring templates
?Clamping capacity:
?-- FD-250, Bolt-On Mortiser: Chuck with clamping capacity up to 20mm
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: Limited to your collet capacity, usually 1/4", 8mm, and 1/2"
?Rotation:
?-- FD-250: Forward/Reverse
?-- Bolt-On Mortiser: "Left Hand" rotation
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: "Right Hand" rotation
? Other Features:?
?-- FD-250: Available with a hollow chisel mortising function
?Ultimately, I believe that the consensus is that the FD-250 and the Bolt-on Mortiser have the edge in terms of running larger/longer tooling, whereas the Multi-Router and Pantorouter have the advantage in terms of joinery tasks.?
?Circling back to "it depends on what you're doing", I'd suggest that if you're mostly building doors/windows, I'd recommend the FD-250 or Bolt-on Mortising unit, whereas if you're building furniture or chairs, you may be better served with the Multi-Router or Pantorouter.?
?For myself, I opted for the FD-250 with the two speed, reversible three phase motor, with the hollow chisel mortising package, as well as the line boring/doweling package. I build a lot of doors and windows, and I really appreciate the ability to expand the table surface with table extensions to support a fully assembled door for mortising/drilling for the handle set.?
?In terms of shop space, now that I've been using my FD-250 for awhile I'm finding I haven't used my drill press since the mortiser arrived, so I'm looking to sell the drill press.?
?I'm sure I've missed something above, but hopefully the above gives you some ideas in terms of identifying what your needs are, which in turn would drive your machine selection.?
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
|
Hi Nathan,
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?I have a slot mortiser ?on a C3 31. ?I debated at the time between this and a Festool Domino. For me, I bought the wrong machine.
Eventually I bought the Festool anyway, and have never used the mortiser since. It's fine at what it is designed to do, but I find that the domino machine is much more versatile and takes seconds to set up, rather that minutes with the mortiser.
Get yourself the best set of cutters that you can, as it makes a world of difference both in time and finish.
Trevor Lusty
Ireland?
|
FYI Felder accessories mortiser attachment.
I built 5 of these side tables / book shelf¡¯s / plant shelfs with a bf631 2 meter with mortiser attachment back in 90¡¯s . Had 5 pieces of salvaged 1/2¡± plate and some local red oak I cut around the bug damage and used it up! Used clico mortise bits. Not available ?anymore. Cut walnut wedges with 20 mm leitz fingers joint. Some where I have pictures of a stand alone mortiser I built for a chair maker in Iowa city. Mac,,,
  
Designing and building for 50 years
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Feb 16, 2024, at 9:25?PM, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? Hi Brian,
Thanks for confirming this. It really is for the knowledge of the forum. It was several yrs ago, IIRC, the poster mentioned that it was a serious issue with smaller bits as they are not long.
On Feb 16, 2024, at 10:12?PM, Brian <brian.milidrag@...> wrote:
? Imran,
Nowhere near 6 inches and change at least with the Felder bits. Probably closer to 3¡±¡I can check travel tomorrow and give you an exact number Kind regards,Brian D. Milidrag
Jonathan,
I find the cart to be very top heavy and would have gotten the FD250 had I known what I know today. Kind regards,Brian D. Milidrag
It s true that the Felder ¡°bolt on¡± mortiser has serious depth limitations.? Kind regards,Brian D. Milidrag
Hi Tim,
Whhhaaattttt! an email with multirouter and pantorouter without any mud slinging, it is indeed ?refreshing ?
A very good way to skin this cat as they all have their usefulness. I have read here that the bolt-on mortiser has significant bore depth limitation. Not sure if it was an operator issue or if it is indeed true. I would definitely confirm if I was buying one.
I may have missed if you mentioned that FD250 has stops for repeatable boring/mortising. I believe they can extend to 8¡¯ on one side or ?less if needed on both sides.
Who about ease of work holding? Are there differences here?
Thanks again for the comparison. On Feb 16, 2024, at 9:07?AM, Tom Gensmer < tom@...> wrote: ?Hi Nathan,?
?It really depends on what kind of work you're performing. I'd separate the free-standing mortising units from the bolt-on mortising units, since the free-standing mortising units have a fixed table which a movable spindle, whereas on the bolt-on units the spindle is fixed and the table moves.?
?One way to think/visualize the machines that might be helpful are the following:?
?RPM:?
?-- FD-250, Bolt-on Mortiser: Relatively low RPM, ~3,000
?-- Multirouter, Pantorouter: Relatively high RPM, ~15k-25k
?What moves, what is fixed?
?-- FD-250, Pantorouter: Fixed table, movable spindle
?-- Bolt-on mortiser, Multi-Router: Fixed spindle, movable table
?Support:
?-- FD-250: Fixed, cast-iron table with F-channels to facilitate use of Felder table extensions
?-- Bolt-on mortiser, Multi-Router, Pantorouter: No native support for table extensions, though you could conceivably use roller stands or other independent work supports
?"Programability":
?-- FD-250, Bolt-on Mosritser: Adjustable stops for X and Y travel, Z travel controlled via hand wheel
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: Adjustable stops for X, Y, and Z travel, all controlled independently with levers
?Templates:
?-- FD-250, Bolt-on Mortiser: No Templates for joinery
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: Templates available for joinery
?Line drilling:?
?-- FD-250, Bolt-On mortiser for Felder machines: Template bars available for precise hole drilling
?-- Bolt-On mortiser for Hammer, Multi-Router, Pantorouter: No line boring templates
?Clamping capacity:
?-- FD-250, Bolt-On Mortiser: Chuck with clamping capacity up to 20mm
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: Limited to your collet capacity, usually 1/4", 8mm, and 1/2"
?Rotation:
?-- FD-250: Forward/Reverse
?-- Bolt-On Mortiser: "Left Hand" rotation
?-- Multi-Router, Pantorouter: "Right Hand" rotation
? Other Features:?
?-- FD-250: Available with a hollow chisel mortising function
?Ultimately, I believe that the consensus is that the FD-250 and the Bolt-on Mortiser have the edge in terms of running larger/longer tooling, whereas the Multi-Router and Pantorouter have the advantage in terms of joinery tasks.?
?Circling back to "it depends on what you're doing", I'd suggest that if you're mostly building doors/windows, I'd recommend the FD-250 or Bolt-on Mortising unit, whereas if you're building furniture or chairs, you may be better served with the Multi-Router or Pantorouter.?
?For myself, I opted for the FD-250 with the two speed, reversible three phase motor, with the hollow chisel mortising package, as well as the line boring/doweling package. I build a lot of doors and windows, and I really appreciate the ability to expand the table surface with table extensions to support a fully assembled door for mortising/drilling for the handle set.?
?In terms of shop space, now that I've been using my FD-250 for awhile I'm finding I haven't used my drill press since the mortiser arrived, so I'm looking to sell the drill press.?
?I'm sure I've missed something above, but hopefully the above gives you some ideas in terms of identifying what your needs are, which in turn would drive your machine selection.?
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
|
Here are some photos of the FD-250 in use as a dowel boring machine:? ?Drill the first row of holes in the stile:?  ... And the first row of holes in the rail:?  For the second row of holes, move the cast iron block to the other side of the table, and flip the boards:?   After drilling the holes, mill the boards, then assemble:?  Hopefully the above info/photos helps to demonstrate the setup -- Tom Gensmer Heritage Home Renewals, LLC Minneapolis, MN
|
Thanks Tom. This is good to know. Terminology was the hindrance. I was thinking of small blocks with which the x direction is controlled instead of this block that goes on top of the table. ? Imran ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] On Behalf Of Tom Gensmer Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2024 2:09 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [FOG] Mortising unit v Pantorouter ? Here are some photos of the FD-250 in use as a dowel boring machine:?
?Drill the first row of holes in the stile:?
... And the first row of holes in the rail:?
For the second row of holes, move the cast iron block to the other side of the table, and flip the boards:?
After drilling the holes, mill the boards, then assemble:?
Hopefully the above info/photos helps to demonstrate the setup
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
|
Hi Tom ,? I assume you have the mortising devise to make dowel drilling reasonable?
Designing and building for 50 years
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Feb 17, 2024, at 2:03?PM, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? Thanks Tom. This is good to know. Terminology was the hindrance. I was thinking of small blocks with which the x direction is controlled instead of this block that goes on top of the table. ? Imran ? ? Here are some photos of the FD-250 in use as a dowel boring machine:?
?Drill the first row of holes in the stile:?
<image001.jpg> ... And the first row of holes in the rail:? <image002.jpg> For the second row of holes, move the cast iron block to the other side of the table, and flip the boards:? <image003.jpg> <image004.jpg> After drilling the holes, mill the boards, then assemble:? <image005.jpg> Hopefully the above info/photos helps to demonstrate the setup -- Tom Gensmer Heritage Home Renewals, LLC Minneapolis, MN
|
Here¡¯s another vote for the Domino. Fast setup and repeatable. Max mortiser depth of 70 mm but can go from two sides if you need a longer through tenon. As Tom showed with the dowels, you can run mortises then machine shoulder or stub tenon if you wish. These tenons are 12 mm X 138 mm.
Thanks Tom. This is good to know. Terminology was the hindrance. I was thinking of small blocks with which the x direction is controlled instead of this block that goes on top of the table. ? Imran ? ? Here are some photos of the FD-250 in use as a dowel boring machine:?
?Drill the first row of holes in the stile:?
... And the first row of holes in the rail:?
For the second row of holes, move the cast iron block to the other side of the table, and flip the boards:?
After drilling the holes, mill the boards, then assemble:?
Hopefully the above info/photos helps to demonstrate the setup
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
|
Nathan D'Elboux
PK
Tom Gensmer
imran
Jonathan Smith
Brian