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Hi Guys,
?
I have a question about our Dual 51. It’s nearly brand new, probably used less than 15 times, as we rarely mill lumber and when we do, it’s often not a lot.
?
We’ve been using it with our interns over the last two weeks, and recently, it seems like it blows a fuse when trying to turn it on sometimes. I called Felder, and the tech said it’s because you shouldn’t turn the blade on and off very often. He suggested keeping the blade running and, when shutting the machine off, keeping it off for 10 minutes to avoid damaging the circuit board. Because these young men are novice woodworkers and we needed to pause often to give instruction, we were shutting the blade off and turning it back on more frequently than his 10-minute rule.
?
What are your thoughts on whether this should be happening, and if you all have experience with how often we should be able to turn the blade on and off? I understand it’s best to keep the motor running, but for such an industrial machine, it seems odd this happened with very little use.
?
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
?
Thanks,
JP
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Hi JP:
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Definitely not normal. The advice to keep it off for 10 minutes to avoid damaging the circuit board is bull/#$t, for sure. The reason why we both know you’ve been told incorrect information is that the Dual
51 is an over and under style machine. If what the tech said is true, when you are finished flattening a board on the jointer, you turn it off and convert to planer mode, and then wait 10 minutes before turning the machine back on to continue work? Nope and
no way.
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I’m not sure what you mean by “blows a fuse”. An onboard fuse? Or the start-up trips a ground fault interrupter (‘RCD’ in Australia), or do you mean something else?
?
My Dual 51 was bought new in 2006. I do try not to turn it off during the start-up sequence (maybe 10 seconds). During that time the star/delta does its thing, and the cutter block comes up to full speed.
And while I often turn mine on and leave it running for hours, I also happily turn it on, run a single board through it, and turn it off. Flip the tables, turn it on again, and run the board through one more time. And turn it off again. I could do that process
repeatedly without issue.
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Of course I wouldn’t sequentially turn off and on my Dual 51 again and again and again. I can imagine that something inside might overheat and break. But I turn on and off my commercial machines as much as
I like in my shop and work without pause for as long as I like. Something is wrong with your machine, or your electrical circuit.
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Warm regards,
Lucky
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Dr David Luckensmeyer
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I have a question about our Dual 51. It’s nearly brand new, probably used less than 15 times, as we rarely mill lumber and when we do, it’s often not a lot.
We’ve been using it with our interns over the last two weeks, and recently, it seems like it blows a fuse when trying to turn it on sometimes. I called Felder, and the tech said it’s because you shouldn’t
turn the blade on and off very often. He suggested keeping the blade running and, when shutting the machine off, keeping it off for 10 minutes to avoid damaging the circuit board. Because these young men are novice woodworkers and we needed to pause often
to give instruction, we were shutting the blade off and turning it back on more frequently than his 10-minute rule.
What are your thoughts on whether this should be happening, and if you all have experience with how often we should be able to turn the blade on and off? I understand it’s best to keep the motor running, but
for such an industrial machine, it seems odd this happened with very little use.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
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If you’re talking about a fuse being blown at your load center or breaker panel, then you properly have not sized the breaker/fuse to the load of your Dual 51 at start up, or the wiring is undersized for this application. ?If you are indeed talking about a fuse in your breaker panel, and not the more contemporary “circuit breaker”, my guess is you need a “slow blow“ fuse at that end as start-up current draw for a Dual 51 can be substantial for at least 10 seconds. If you have a contemporary circuit breaker that is tripping then you could have a defective circuit breaker or overloaded wiring. ?If that’s your situation, I recommend you bring in a licensed electrician to evaluate your situation.
If the fuse being blown is inside your Dual 51 machine, then there is some kind of fault that would require a technician to evaluate.
You didn’t state whether your machine is single or three phase but I would assume, ?since it’s a Dual 51, you are powering it with three phase. You might elaborate a bit about how you’re generating three phase in your shop and your wiring set-up specifics. ?With a properly sized and protected three phase circuit you should be able to power on and off a 3-phase Dual 51 repeatedly all day long - I certainly can with mine. David Best - via mobile phone?
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On Feb 6, 2024, at 8:48?PM, jppetricca@... wrote:
? Hi Guys,
?
I have a question about our Dual 51. It’s nearly brand new, probably used less than 15 times, as we rarely mill lumber and when we do, it’s often not a lot.
?
We’ve been using it with our interns over the last two weeks, and recently, it seems like it blows a fuse when trying to turn it on sometimes. I called Felder, and the tech said it’s because you shouldn’t turn the blade on and off very often. He suggested keeping the blade running and, when shutting the machine off, keeping it off for 10 minutes to avoid damaging the circuit board. Because these young men are novice woodworkers and we needed to pause often to give instruction, we were shutting the blade off and turning it back on more frequently than his 10-minute rule.
?
What are your thoughts on whether this should be happening, and if you all have experience with how often we should be able to turn the blade on and off? I understand it’s best to keep the motor running, but for such an industrial machine, it seems odd this happened with very little use.
?
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
?
Thanks,
JP
|
JP,
?
The tech has a point but likely did not communicate it well. Motors have service/duty ratings from S1 to S10. My Dual 51 is 7.35 KW S6-40%. Here is the explanation.?
?
| S1? |
Continuous duty |
The motor operates at a continuous load for sufficient time to enable machine to reach thermal equilibrium.? |
| S2 |
Short Time duty |
Operation at a load for a time not sufficient to reach thermal equilibrium, followed by enough time for the motor to cool down. |
| S3? |
Intermittent periodic duty |
Series of identical duty cycles each a constant load for a period, followed by a rest period. Thermal equilibrium is not reached during the cycle. |
| S4 |
Intermittent periodic duty with starting |
Similar to S3, but there is a significant starting time within the periodic operation. |
| S5 |
Intermittent periodic duty with electric braking |
Sequence of identical duty cycles - starting, operation, braking and rest.? Again thermal equilibrium is not reached. |
| S6 |
Continuous operation periodic duty |
Identical duty cycles with a period at load followed by a period at no load.? Difference between S1 is that the motor runs at no-load, without actual stopping. |
| S7 |
Continuous operation periodic duty with electric braking |
As per S6, but with a?significant starting and electric breaking periods.? Again motor operates at no-load for? period instead of?stopped.? |
| S8 |
Continuous operation periodic duty with related load/speed changes |
Series of identical repeating duty cycles, where within each cycle the motor operates at several different load levels and speed. There is not stopped time and thermal equilibrium is not reached. |
| S9 |
Duty with non-periodic load and speed variations???? |
Load and speed vary periodically within the permissible operating range. Frequent overloading may occur. |
| S10 |
Duty with discrete constant loads and speeds |
Duty with discrete number of load/speed combinations, with these maintained long enough to reach thermal equilibrium. |
Not sure what latest Dual 51 electronics are like but if I have to guess the circuit board tech referred to is likely the brake board. It would get hot with repetitive braking and so would the motor as it is braked with DC current injection.
As for fuse, I imagine we are talking about thermal fuse in the motor. If the motor did not start it likely got hot and needed to cool down to reset the thermal fuse.
As Lucky mentioned, the combo machine is meant to be used where switching function requires motor turn off. This should be fine. Just don’t over do it.
Let me know if you still have a question.
On Feb 6, 2024, at 11:48?PM, jppetricca@... wrote:
Hi Guys,
?
I have a question about our Dual 51. It’s nearly brand new, probably used less than 15 times, as we rarely mill lumber and when we do, it’s often not a lot.
?
We’ve been using it with our interns over the last two weeks, and recently, it seems like it blows a fuse when trying to turn it on sometimes. I called Felder, and the tech said it’s because you shouldn’t turn the blade on and off very often. He suggested keeping the blade running and, when shutting the machine off, keeping it off for 10 minutes to avoid damaging the circuit board. Because these young men are novice woodworkers and we needed to pause often to give instruction, we were shutting the blade off and turning it back on more frequently than his 10-minute rule.
?
What are your thoughts on whether this should be happening, and if you all have experience with how often we should be able to turn the blade on and off? I understand it’s best to keep the motor running, but for such an industrial machine, it seems odd this happened with very little use.
?
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
?
Thanks,
JP
|
Is the feed using power from the main motor if so disconnected feed lever first .
Designing and building for 50 years
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On Feb 7, 2024, at 7:21?AM, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
?[Edited Message Follows]
[Reason: Added brake board to the response]
JP,
The tech has a point but likely did not communicate it well. Motors have service/duty ratings from S1 to S10. My Dual 51 is 7.35 KW S6-40%. Here is the explanation.
S1 Continuous duty The motor operates at a continuous load for sufficient time to enable machine to reach thermal equilibrium. S2 Short Time duty Operation at a load for a time not sufficient to reach thermal equilibrium, followed by enough time for the motor to cool down. S3 Intermittent periodic duty Series of identical duty cycles each a constant load for a period, followed by a rest period. Thermal equilibrium is not reached during the cycle. S4 Intermittent periodic duty with starting Similar to S3, but there is a significant starting time within the periodic operation. S5 Intermittent periodic duty with electric braking Sequence of identical duty cycles - starting, operation, braking and rest.? Again thermal equilibrium is not reached. S6 Continuous operation periodic duty Identical duty cycles with a period at load followed by a period at no load.? Difference between S1 is that the motor runs at no-load, without actual stopping. S7 Continuous operation periodic duty with electric braking As per S6, but with a?significant starting and electric breaking periods.? Again motor operates at no-load for? period instead of?stopped. S8 Continuous operation periodic duty with related load/speed changes Series of identical repeating duty cycles, where within each cycle the motor operates at several different load levels and speed. There is not stopped time and thermal equilibrium is not reached. S9 Duty with non-periodic load and speed variations Load and speed vary periodically within the permissible operating range. Frequent overloading may occur. S10 Duty with discrete constant loads and speeds Duty with discrete number of load/speed combinations, with these maintained long enough to reach thermal equilibrium.
Understanding Motor Duty Rating ( https://myelectrical.com/notes/entryid/106/understanding-motor-duty-rating )
myelectrical.com ( https://myelectrical.com/notes/entryid/106/understanding-motor-duty-rating )
Not sure what latest Dual 51 electronics are like but if I have to guess the circuit board tech referred to is likely the brake board. It would get hot with repetitive braking and so would the motor as it is braked with DC current injection.
As for fuse, I imagine we are talking about thermal fuse in the motor. If the motor did not start it likely got hot and needed to cool down to reset the thermal fuse.
As Lucky mentioned, the combo machine is meant to be used where switching function requires motor turn off. This should be fine. Just don’t over do it.
Let me know if you still have a question.
Imran Malik
https://www.facebook.com/groups/362481112015700/?ref=share
On Feb 6, 2024, at 11:48?PM, jppetricca@... wrote:
Hi Guys,
I have a question about our Dual 51. It’s nearly brand new, probably used less than 15 times, as we rarely mill lumber and when we do, it’s often not a lot.
We’ve been using it with our interns over the last two weeks, and recently, it seems like it blows a fuse when trying to turn it on sometimes. I called Felder, and the tech said it’s because you shouldn’t turn the blade on and off very often. He suggested keeping the blade running and, when shutting the machine off, keeping it off for 10 minutes to avoid damaging the circuit board. Because these young men are novice woodworkers and we needed to pause often to give instruction, we were shutting the blade off and turning it back on more frequently than his 10-minute rule.
What are your thoughts on whether this should be happening, and if you all have experience with how often we should be able to turn the blade on and off? I understand it’s best to keep the motor running, but for such an industrial machine, it seems odd this happened with very little use.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
JP
|
Hey JP,
I too have a 1 year old Dual 51. As the other have said it’s a machine that basically has to be turned off, moved and turned on again to continue working.
Lately, I’ve been doing a lot of small projects, joint a few boards then flip it over to plane, on/off, on/off etc. With no problems.
I’d check your circuit, breaker, wire size etc. I’ll say mine is on a dedicated outlet on a 50 amp breaker. Mine is also powered by a 20hp phase perfect.
Years back I had a Minimax Fs41e I believe. It had a similar issue, tripped a breaker in the machines panel at start up. My shop was a little more rough around the edges back then, so my circuit were overloaded and the machines don’t like that.
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My Dual 51 has a separate motor for feed as it has variable speed feed option.
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On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:51?AM, mac campshure via groups.io <mac512002@...> wrote: ? Is the feed using power from the main motor if so disconnected feed lever first .
Designing and building for 50 years On Feb 7, 2024, at 7:21?AM, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
?[Edited Message Follows]
[Reason: Added brake board to the response]
JP,
The tech has a point but likely did not communicate it well. Motors have service/duty ratings from S1 to S10. My Dual 51 is 7.35 KW S6-40%. Here is the explanation.
S1 Continuous duty The motor operates at a continuous load for sufficient time to enable machine to reach thermal equilibrium. S2 Short Time duty Operation at a load for a time not sufficient to reach thermal equilibrium, followed by enough time for the motor to cool down. S3 Intermittent periodic duty Series of identical duty cycles each a constant load for a period, followed by a rest period. Thermal equilibrium is not reached during the cycle. S4 Intermittent periodic duty with starting Similar to S3, but there is a significant starting time within the periodic operation. S5 Intermittent periodic duty with electric braking Sequence of identical duty cycles - starting, operation, braking and rest.? Again thermal equilibrium is not reached. S6 Continuous operation periodic duty Identical duty cycles with a period at load followed by a period at no load.? Difference between S1 is that the motor runs at no-load, without actual stopping. S7 Continuous operation periodic duty with electric braking As per S6, but with a?significant starting and electric breaking periods.? Again motor operates at no-load for? period instead of?stopped. S8 Continuous operation periodic duty with related load/speed changes Series of identical repeating duty cycles, where within each cycle the motor operates at several different load levels and speed. There is not stopped time and thermal equilibrium is not reached. S9 Duty with non-periodic load and speed variations Load and speed vary periodically within the permissible operating range. Frequent overloading may occur. S10 Duty with discrete constant loads and speeds Duty with discrete number of load/speed combinations, with these maintained long enough to reach thermal equilibrium.
Understanding Motor Duty Rating ( https://myelectrical.com/notes/entryid/106/understanding-motor-duty-rating )
myelectrical.com ( https://myelectrical.com/notes/entryid/106/understanding-motor-duty-rating )
Not sure what latest Dual 51 electronics are like but if I have to guess the circuit board tech referred to is likely the brake board. It would get hot with repetitive braking and so would the motor as it is braked with DC current injection.
As for fuse, I imagine we are talking about thermal fuse in the motor. If the motor did not start it likely got hot and needed to cool down to reset the thermal fuse.
As Lucky mentioned, the combo machine is meant to be used where switching function requires motor turn off. This should be fine. Just don’t over do it.
Let me know if you still have a question.
Imran Malik
https://www.facebook.com/groups/362481112015700/?ref=share
On Feb 6, 2024, at 11:48?PM, jppetricca@... wrote:
Hi Guys,
I have a question about our Dual 51. It’s nearly brand new, probably used less than 15 times, as we rarely mill lumber and when we do, it’s often not a lot.
We’ve been using it with our interns over the last two weeks, and recently, it seems like it blows a fuse when trying to turn it on sometimes. I called Felder, and the tech said it’s because you shouldn’t turn the blade on and off very often. He suggested keeping the blade running and, when shutting the machine off, keeping it off for 10 minutes to avoid damaging the circuit board. Because these young men are novice woodworkers and we needed to pause often to give instruction, we were shutting the blade off and turning it back on more frequently than his 10-minute rule.
What are your thoughts on whether this should be happening, and if you all have experience with how often we should be able to turn the blade on and off? I understand it’s best to keep the motor running, but for such an industrial machine, it seems odd this happened with very little use.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
JP
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David Luckensmeyer
David P. Best
imran
Declan Gallagher