Re: One dust collector to rule them all?
Hi Albert:
?
Aha, the penny dropped for me when I saw airtight solutions. I was not particularly well informed about ¡°Nederman¡± extractors, but I know from experience that Airtight units are excellent, both in terms of
value and performance. No wonder you¡¯re happy.
?
Warm regards,
Lucky
?
Good day Lucky,?
I didnt have any technical issue with my hydrovane, but when I first got it, I called in compressor technician to give it a service, the cost of it at the time, $1000. I only bought the compressor for $800!! and the technician said to me that I need to run
it all the time and also this is only a small service, I need to do a service every year, by the time I got my invoice I have decided to cut it loose.?
I bought my Nederman 2nd hand, it did not come with any shaker, I know this can be retrofitted either by Nederman or after market it, mine did came with 3 stainless steel bins though, I will be replacing these bins with Comafer briquette press sometime in the
next 2 years.?
busy shop cant give you a good view of the unit.?
I have always had impeller pushing material style extractor, my previous extractor is a 4kw bag house unit, its a copy of the Nederman, it survived 8 years in my workshop, these type of fan are material handling, they are designed to take the beating (to a
degree), but if you drop a 10mm spanner in it, it will surely cause damage, I have had odd 8mm thick domino get sucked into the extraction but the impeller are fine after I removed the ducting to inspect damage, they are well built.?
current workshop and ducting layout
The only regret I have with Nederman is that I should have bought it years ago but its an costly item... mine costed $8k NZD, could have bought it cheaper but I have been bothering the guy from Nederman long enough(first email to them was back in 2014!), so
decided to get this unit, its slightly used condition and a lot of free ducting, the Nederman is very very efficient, the shavings/dust you see on the floor are from spill over when I opened up the extractor to clean it. I am like you, in the suburban area
(am in Auckland), I cant have my extractor sitting in my garden.
I have just tested the noise level of the Nederman standing 1m from the machine using an app called Decibel X, ambient noise is 35dB, max noise is 80dB, it feels louder than 80dB maybe because its sitting in a corner
attached is a T750 datasheet, material is top entry but the fan is the same as S750, 7000m3/hr @ 2800 Pa?
On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 10:56 AM, David Luckensmeyer wrote:
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Thanks for your comments. I didn¡¯t catch whether you had success or problems with the hydrovane? My hydrovane, like the screw, needed to be run continuously.
?
I understand you have a Nederman S750 and are very happy with it. I just looked it up online and the machines on offer look very interesting. A couple of questions:
?
- Do you have the shaker cleaning option? Whether you do or not, I wonder how the Nederman goes with wide belt dust?
- I see that the shaker cleaning option can only be operated (manual, mechanical or automatic) while the machine is stopped. I like to run my machines for hours at a time, and the RL250 cleaning cycle
might kick in every 15 to 20 mins depending on what I¡¯m doing during that time. Is it normal to have to power everything down in order to ¡°clean/shake¡± a dust extractor? Is this an advantage of the RL units, or in fact one of its downfalls?
- The Nederman runs the extracted material through the impeller, while the RL¡¯s impeller is after the filters. I don¡¯t know which is preferable in terms of extraction capability although I love not
having to worry about chunks of timber or foreign material damaging my impeller.
- I see there are bag, barrel and bin options for the Nederman. Which do you have and which do you recommend?
?
Bottom line: I¡¯d love to hear more about the day to day living with a Nederman.
?
Regarding air compressors¡ Another point I failed to mention for the benefit of others considering hydrovane or screw compressors: I live in sub-tropical Brisbane in Australia. It is not quite as humid as Hawaii,
but relative humidity is generally high. That must play a role in how much water gets into the oil of these compressors and needs to be ¡°burned off¡± with continuous or near-continuous run times. I wonder whether a hydrovane or screw compressor would last a
lot longer with intermittent use if located in an area of low relative humidity?
?
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Re: Felder bf6-31 table top alignment?
35/1000 is perfect Designing and building for 50 years
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On Dec 7, 2022, at 5:03 PM, Adam Killion <akillion84@...> wrote:
??I got an indicator on the cutterhead tonight when I got homeand it was .035 across the entire head so I would rather not touch that. Also it doesn't look like this was ever moved since factory set if you look at the bolts. I could move it a little closer but think just moving the saw table is the way to go. Does anyone know if moving it is just loosening the 4 nuts for table height adjustment and the set screws in between the saw and jointer and then backing off the jack nuts for the trunnion adjustment on shaper and saw? I was able to pivot the saw to get the dovetails parallel but couldn't move it front or back and didn't want to give it hell without advice first.    Thanks again everyone
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Re: Felder bf6-31 table top alignment?
?I got an indicator on the cutterhead tonight when I got homeand it was .035 across the entire head so I would rather not touch that. Also it doesn't look like this was ever moved since factory set if you look at the bolts. I could move it a little closer but think just moving the saw table is the way to go. Does anyone know if moving it is just loosening the 4 nuts for table height adjustment and the set screws in between the saw and jointer and then backing off the jack nuts for the trunnion adjustment on shaper and saw? I was able to pivot the saw to get the dovetails parallel but couldn't move it front or back and didn't want to give it hell without advice first.    Thanks again everyone
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Thanks David. Good to know they are still around.
All, sorry, I did not elaborate as I knew David would know since he uses the outfit. I was also very happy with their aqua blue (not mauve) rollers ?
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On Dec 7, 2022, at 3:28 PM, David P. Best <david@...> wrote: ? Axiom was purchased by a sister company named Griffith Polymers. ?They have picked up where Axiom left off offering rubber/poly recovering services for feeder tires, planer feed rollers, and all manner of other applications in agriculture, automotive, oil/gas, etc. they are in the same city that Axion was in - Tualitin Oregon.?
sales@... 503-612-0999 David Best - via mobile phone? On Dec 7, 2022, at 12:09 PM, Imran Malik <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? David,
Is Axiom out =
of business? Their website does not come up anymore and their web address i=
s available for sale. <=
/html>
=20
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Re: One dust collector to rule them all?
Also found a fan curve of the RL series, RL250, 300 and 350 if anyone is interested.? in 2016 a RL350 costed $32k NZD, or 20k Euro.?  
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Re: One dust collector to rule them all?
Good day Lucky,? I didnt have any technical issue with my hydrovane, but when I first got it, I called in compressor technician to give it a service, the cost of it at the time, $1000. I only bought the compressor for $800!! and the technician said to me that I need to run it all the time and also this is only a small service, I need to do a service every year, by the time I got my invoice I have decided to cut it loose.? I bought my Nederman 2nd hand, it did not come with any shaker, I know this can be retrofitted either by Nederman or after market it, mine did came with 3 stainless steel bins though, I will be replacing these bins with Comafer briquette press sometime in the next 2 years.? busy shop cant give you a good view of the unit.?  I have always had impeller pushing material style extractor, my previous extractor is a 4kw bag house unit, its a copy of the Nederman, it survived 8 years in my workshop, these type of fan are material handling, they are designed to take the beating (to a degree), but if you drop a 10mm spanner in it, it will surely cause damage, I have had odd 8mm thick domino get sucked into the extraction but the impeller are fine after I removed the ducting to inspect damage, they are well built.? current workshop and ducting layout  The only regret I have with Nederman is that I should have bought it years ago but its an costly item... mine costed $8k NZD, could have bought it cheaper but I have been bothering the guy from Nederman long enough(first email to them was back in 2014!), so decided to get this unit, its slightly used condition and a lot of free ducting, the Nederman is very very efficient, the shavings/dust you see on the floor are from spill over when I opened up the extractor to clean it. I am like you, in the suburban area (am in Auckland), I cant have my extractor sitting in my garden. I have just tested the noise level of the Nederman standing 1m from the machine using an app called Decibel X, ambient noise is 35dB, max noise is 80dB, it feels louder than 80dB maybe because its sitting in a corner attached is a T750 datasheet, material is top entry but the fan is the same as S750, 7000m3/hr @ 2800 Pa?
On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 10:56 AM, David Luckensmeyer wrote:
Thanks for your comments. I didn¡¯t catch whether you had success or problems with the hydrovane? My hydrovane, like the screw, needed to be run continuously.
?
I understand you have a Nederman S750 and are very happy with it. I just looked it up online and the machines on offer look very interesting. A couple of questions:
?
- Do you have the shaker cleaning option? Whether you do or not, I wonder how the Nederman goes with wide belt dust?
- I see that the shaker cleaning option can only be operated (manual, mechanical or automatic) while the machine is stopped. I like to run my machines for hours at a time, and the RL250 cleaning cycle might kick in every 15 to 20 mins depending on what I¡¯m doing during that time. Is it normal to have to power everything down in order to ¡°clean/shake¡± a dust extractor? Is this an advantage of the RL units, or in fact one of its downfalls?
- The Nederman runs the extracted material through the impeller, while the RL¡¯s impeller is after the filters. I don¡¯t know which is preferable in terms of extraction capability although I love not having to worry about chunks of timber or foreign material damaging my impeller.
- I see there are bag, barrel and bin options for the Nederman. Which do you have and which do you recommend?
?
Bottom line: I¡¯d love to hear more about the day to day living with a Nederman.
?
Regarding air compressors¡ Another point I failed to mention for the benefit of others considering hydrovane or screw compressors: I live in sub-tropical Brisbane in Australia. It is not quite as humid as Hawaii, but relative humidity is generally high. That must play a role in how much water gets into the oil of these compressors and needs to be ¡°burned off¡± with continuous or near-continuous run times. I wonder whether a hydrovane or screw compressor would last a lot longer with intermittent use if located in an area of low relative humidity?
?
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FS: Barth Accessories, Rack and Pinion
I have a Barth Multipress (smallest version) and 500V bench. ?When I purchased the multiples, I selected 4 of the BM-70-33 Rack and Pinion clamping gear units and 4 of the BM-70-33 stops. ?For my 500V I also purchased ?clamping units with stops. ?The clamps are identical other than the fact that the ones for the Multipress are setup to fit into smaller holes
I find that I do not use the clamps with the Multipress. ?I think I used them once. ?I like to dedicate the press to hydraulic clamping. ?If my Multipress were a larger unit, or my workflow and project selection were different, ?I would likely use it for more tasks with the rack and pinion clamps.
I recently found out that the clamps for the Multipless can be used with the Barth bench that has the larger holes using an adapter (see black arrow) that is available. I do not think that was an option when I purchased my clamps.
So, if you have an interest in clamps for a Barth Bench or Multipress, these should work for either/both. ?Barth now makes smaller lighter weight clamps for their benches, and I plan to buy them. ?However, I still think the larger ones are nice to have for certain applications, ?so I am not selling them all. I just do not need so many.
New, these are $800 for each clamp plus stop (not counting tax). ?I have 4 to sell. ?They are not new but like new. ?I am asking 60% of the new price, so $480 each set = ?$1,920 plus shipping.
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A while back we were talking about recovering feeder rollers by Axiom.? If this is the company you're referring then yes their website seems to be gone
Dave Davies
You mean
?David,
Is Axiom out of business? Their website does not come up anymore and their web address is available for sale.
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
|
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On Dec 7, 2022, at 3:09 PM, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? David,
Is Axiom out of business? Their website does not come up anymore and their web address is available for sale.
|
David,
Is Axiom out of business? Their website does not come up anymore and their web address is available for sale.
|
Re: Felder bf6-31 table top alignment?
Happy to help , ?done this a few times Designing and building for 50 years
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On Dec 7, 2022, at 10:21 AM, Adam Killion <akillion84@...> wrote:
?Thanks Mac, that is the info I was hoping for. I figured the cutterhead was the reference but wasn't aware of that dimension to the table. I will check the outfeed table to cutterhead when I get home and see where that puts me. My main issue is I am not sure if I have enough movement to move the saw table forward a heavy 1/16". I got a feeling this will be a multi day project for me.
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Re: One dust collector to rule them all?
While this great discussion is running, anyone have a take on a dust collector to rule *some* of them??
I can make a separate topic if people feel this will derail the conversation too much, but I'm looking for the quietest dust collector that will handle my tablesaw and jointer/planer exclusively. I can't help but feel something like the ALKO units or the Nederman units might be overkill for my 500sq shop, given that I outsource my sanding.
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Re: One dust collector to rule them all?
Another option same style as Nederman half the cost, Belfab $6,250 comes with a starter. Efficiency is 99% @.5 micron intake is 9" and 85dB rating which is 2x the Nederman.? Small footprint and rollout dustbin instead of a drum. Nederman weighs 600# Belfab 325#.  Jay Bowen Cleveland
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Re: One dust collector to rule them all?
I should mention I have a 25¡± wide belt sander. Also, I needed to build an enclosure to muffle the cvmax which led to even more issues with overfilling the canister. ?This also happened with the rl160 which had little windows which were useless. The s1000 has clear bags which even if they get covered inside by fine dust you can simply tap on to see the amount of dust. The s1000 which has what feels like 5x the cfm of the rl160 sounds nearly equivalent.
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Re: One dust collector to rule them all?
Preston is a very good company to deal with. I bought my s1000 from them along with all my clamp together ducting at a substantial savings from buying from nordfab or nederman directly. Please mention my name if you buy something from them.?
i have had my nederman for over 3 years and love it. Is it as clean as a hepa filter? Probably not. Do i see dust particles in the air? No. That being said science would say they are not visible to the eye.?
i will say that i have a much better experience with a three bag collection used in the nederman than the two bag in my old rl160 or 1 can in the cvmax cyclone i had. I never have filter jams like i had in the cyclone. really the amount of dust that escapes from the cyclone or rl when removing the bags or emptying the cans is significantly reduced. Additionally i remember having to use a compressor to clean the hepa canister in the cvmax. Often i would do this with a different dust collector or shop vac to removed the fine dust that fell down but after a year or two I decided to take it outside and give it a real good cleaning and was blown away at how much was still in there. After about 30 minutes and tons of air compressor cycles I gave up because I could not remove it all and I was sure my neighbors were pissed at me.
So keep that in mind when debating hepa canister filters vs the sock type filters. Oh and lastly If you are still concerned, just run one of those hepa air cleaners that just about every company makes. I use them when I am scraping table tops or edge sanding by hand to collect the nasty fines that become airborne. Especially when sweeping.?
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Re: Opinions on Alpine Workshop?
Brandon,
I attended the Advanced Joinery class last April.? It is everything that has been stated previously.
In a previous life, I made custom exterior and interior doors for 3 years.? I signed up for the Alpine Door workshop in March.? Joe uses methods that we just didn't use 30 years ago and the learning curve is so much shorter for me when I am hands on with something.
I am excited to see some friends from the last workshop and learn more methods in Joe's shop.
PK
PKwoodworking
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Re: How to achieve this surface finish?
You also might consider contacting the architect directly. In the past when I've found an architectural or design detail that intrigues me, I've done some detective work to find the architect to learn more about the detail then tracked down whoever worked on the project to get more info. In my experience architects and their tradespeople love to talk about their work, though sometimes it takes a while to work through the network of architects, GC, and subs.?I have yet to be denied access to a detail that I'm interested in, but they haven't always been able to track down who executed it to provide the necessary detail for me to do it myself.
Not sure if this is the place you took pictures from, but here is what I was able to turn up when I searched for "architect portland japanese garden" on google.?
?
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Re: One dust collector to rule them all?
heard from Preston Dust collector -- see below.? Mirrors what DK had to say. Dave Davies Good morning David,
Attached is the filtering efficiency of our dust socks. Those two companies I am familiar with and they use cartridge style filters which all those sounds great to start with is not good or really anything besides MDF or fumes. The reason being is because they get so clogged with dust that the cleaning capabilities becomes moot. Almost all of the United States Dust Collection companies are using a sock similar to ours. Those reverse poles jet systems are coming from Europe, which have much more stringent air quality rules. With that said they work great for a little while but the filters are very expensive to replace and aren¡¯t a very good solution for plastics or would dust in reality.?
We have a pneumatic vibration system that gets the dust cakes to drop from the inside of the filter wall when you do cleaning. You don¡¯t get big plumes of dust when it starts, but you will get an accumulation of very very fine dust at the dust collector until the bags are seasoned. Not to mention the price is very very high for a system that doesn¡¯t work very well from Felder and Alko.?
If our dust collector is something you would like to look at, I will gladly provide a quote but we are coming in typically around half price to those units for a made in America unit.?
We make our units in-house and have several things that make ours better than the competition.?
We have a pneumatic Vibro system.?
We have a reverse incline, material handling fan, whereas most companies are using an air handling fan.?
We also have a barrel lifting platform if you do not want to clamp bags.?
The video is on our website. If you would like more information, please let me know!?
We're Insured Worldwide!
Plastic & Woodworking Machinery -?
Dust Collection - Air Compressors - Sales/Service - WE DO IT ALL!!??
Member IAPD & Member WMIA & Member WMMA
Thomas Preston III
Lead Sales Engineer
616.952.1520
Check out our website at:
On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 10:59 AM David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
Yes, I'm not familiar with the RL filer so I'm talking about cartridges used with an Oneida type
cyclone or even a direct to filter design using round cartridges.? If the cartridges are in a box and cleaned with a pulse jet, they are accumulating dust on the outside.??
For my storage building with the big widebelt I found a Coral 7.5 hp four bag unit for $800.?
Added four eight ft high singed poly bags from American Fabric Filter for about $100 each ( a few years ago ) and I just beat the bags with a stick every few months.? Works for me.? Home shop has a Torit cyclone with four cartridges and a 7.5 hp motor on a
vfd .
Dave
Dave,
If I understand correctly you are talking about the pleated filter in a cylindrical form where pleats are tighter on the inside than the outside.
Again correct me if wrong, this aspect should not affect most of us using pleated filters in RL dust collectors.
Just throwing it out in case some readers get concerned or draw conclusions that are not relevant to their collectors.
On Dec 7, 2022, at 9:41 AM, David Kumm < davekumm@...> wrote:
?
I've no dog in this fight but a couple of things to remember.? The bags listed are Beane bags.? Those are
good bags and allow for a less surface area needed than some others.? There are other bags with higher small particle efficiency.? ?They sometimes need to be oversized to compensate for the tight weave needed to trap the small stuff.? Whether a filter is HEPA,
MERV 14 or 15, or something else is less important in my world than how easily it can be cleaned and how much cfm it will pass at a given pressure.? The air from the bags isn't as likely to kill your lungs as is the envelope of dust that doesn't make it to
the collector fast enough to avoid you breathing some of it.? A filter that slowly becomes plugged enough to reduce the cfm at the machine is something you don't notice until you cough.? Cartridges are used for fine dust but most were originally designed as
outside to inside.? The dust is trapped outside the filter where the pleats are spread and blown from the inside to release the dust and drop it down or shaken to do the same thing.? The inside to outside filters used often now are more problematic but the
collector is less expensive to produce.
Lots to consider but don't forget that minimizing that dust envelope around the machine when the filters
are seasoned but not clean is very important.? If you set a Dylos air monitor close to a machine when you run it you will be shocked at how quickly the numbers go from 50 to-several thousand.??
Dave
I have been looking into the Nederman myself one thing I wanted to know was the filter rating which is 90% @ 2 microns but 30% capture @ .5 microns, decibel rating is 70, no remote start, wired starter from Nederman is another $1,000 so a 5HP unit would
be $11,000 all in. Cyclones are MERV15 particle capture for .3-1micron@85%, have a remote start included but 80-95dB loud as heck, 40% the cost of the Nederman. RL160 70dB rating, wired remote start with machine turn on and delayed shutoff, 110g dust bin cost
sits between the cyclones and Nederman. Felder states "0.1 mg/m?" for filtration efficiency not sure how that translates to particle size.
Filtration curve attached.
Jay Bowen
Cleveland
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
|
Re: One dust collector to rule them all?
Yes, I'm not familiar with the RL filer so I'm talking about cartridges used with an Oneida type
cyclone or even a direct to filter design using round cartridges.? If the cartridges are in a box and cleaned with a pulse jet, they are accumulating dust on the outside.??
For my storage building with the big widebelt I found a Coral 7.5 hp four bag unit for $800.?
Added four eight ft high singed poly bags from American Fabric Filter for about $100 each ( a few years ago ) and I just beat the bags with a stick every few months.? Works for me.? Home shop has a Torit cyclone with four cartridges and a 7.5 hp motor on a
vfd .
Dave
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Dave,
If I understand correctly you are talking about the pleated filter in a cylindrical form where pleats are tighter on the inside than the outside.
Again correct me if wrong, this aspect should not affect most of us using pleated filters in RL dust collectors.
Just throwing it out in case some readers get concerned or draw conclusions that are not relevant to their collectors.
On Dec 7, 2022, at 9:41 AM, David Kumm <davekumm@...> wrote:
?
I've no dog in this fight but a couple of things to remember.? The bags listed are Beane bags.? Those are
good bags and allow for a less surface area needed than some others.? There are other bags with higher small particle efficiency.? ?They sometimes need to be oversized to compensate for the tight weave needed to trap the small stuff.? Whether a filter is HEPA,
MERV 14 or 15, or something else is less important in my world than how easily it can be cleaned and how much cfm it will pass at a given pressure.? The air from the bags isn't as likely to kill your lungs as is the envelope of dust that doesn't make it to
the collector fast enough to avoid you breathing some of it.? A filter that slowly becomes plugged enough to reduce the cfm at the machine is something you don't notice until you cough.? Cartridges are used for fine dust but most were originally designed as
outside to inside.? The dust is trapped outside the filter where the pleats are spread and blown from the inside to release the dust and drop it down or shaken to do the same thing.? The inside to outside filters used often now are more problematic but the
collector is less expensive to produce.
Lots to consider but don't forget that minimizing that dust envelope around the machine when the filters
are seasoned but not clean is very important.? If you set a Dylos air monitor close to a machine when you run it you will be shocked at how quickly the numbers go from 50 to-several thousand.??
Dave
I have been looking into the Nederman myself one thing I wanted to know was the filter rating which is 90% @ 2 microns but 30% capture @ .5 microns, decibel rating is 70, no remote start, wired starter from Nederman is another $1,000 so a 5HP unit would
be $11,000 all in. Cyclones are MERV15 particle capture for .3-1micron@85%, have a remote start included but 80-95dB loud as heck, 40% the cost of the Nederman. RL160 70dB rating, wired remote start with machine turn on and delayed shutoff, 110g dust bin cost
sits between the cyclones and Nederman. Felder states "0.1 mg/m?" for filtration efficiency not sure how that translates to particle size.
Filtration curve attached.
Jay Bowen
Cleveland
|
Re: One dust collector to rule them all?
The Belfab collectors look like Nederman --?
High efficiency beane bag filter bags with efficiency level of 99.99% between 3.8 and 4.6 microns??
This efficiency doesn't sound great.? No mention of .5 micron particles. Dave Davies
I'll throw another twist in this thread.? I? have a Model 90 Donaldson Torit cabinet collector connected to my wide belt.? Mine is and older version with hanging bag filters.? They make newer models with canisters.?
My other collection is done with cyclones.? ?Space intensive solution,? but works very well.?
Marlowe McGraw?
Tom, ? That's my thought as well.? My perspective is that I'll be buying a wide belt sander when I retire and set up my retirement shop and will be looking to replace my RL-160.? Trying to do the research now to know which dust collector to buy. Dave Davies
On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 9:13 AM < tom@...> wrote: Dave,
I suspect that the 0.1mg/m3 standard is the European equivalent to our HEPA standard in North America, thus the consolidation of machines to that standard. Pure conjecture on my part though¡..?
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
--
Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
-- Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
|
David Luckensmeyer
imran
Albert Lee
PK