Re: AWFS Updates - After show thoughts
Larry, my recollections about availability and price are from a year and a half, maybe two years ago. Things can change fast!
Sounds like the technology is moving down the model lines some, which is great news!
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John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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That is a good sign, it suggests that all Hammer tables are the same and drilled/tapped for the scoring device. In newer machines the switch and electrical control unit can be removed providing some limited access to the innerds. I think the only way to work on my machine is to block the bottom of the planer side and jack up the saw side a foot or so.
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Re: AWFS Updates - After show thoughts
John,
I was going by the recent AWFS promotional pricing listings on Felder's flyer. They listed bundles for k945s and kappa 450 that were both around $26k - $28k. Assuming no other options needed to be added to get the PCS, another $7k gets to low $30k range. It may also be possible to spec one even cheaper if you did a custom build during AWFS without some of the additional add-ons that the pre-configured bundles had. Could be worth checking out next year during IWF.
It is nice to see PCS getting added to the Felder line (though the k945s was very close in price to the Kappa). Hopefully it continues to trickle down!
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Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood
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Re: AWFS Updates - After show thoughts
Great points, Brett. I think that your speculation about Altendorf being under pressure makes a lot of sense. I saw their handguard saw pop up on another YouTube channel a few weeks ago that I never watched before but seemed to be catered toward smaller shops, which I found interesting.
I also hope that the tech sticks around and continues to evolve!?
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Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood
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Re: AWFS Updates - After show thoughts
?¡°My Felder rep said that PCS is a $7k addon to compatible models, so that puts a PCS saw in the low $30k range.¡±
When I was shopping for a slider, I guess it was two years ago now, the PCS was available on only one saw in the USA. That meant US$50k as a minimum. That seemed like a lot at the time.
The comments ?on the Altendorf video made much of the cost of the saw, suggesting the saw with Hand Guard was about $66k and that was totally out of reach of a hobby woodworker. Missing from the comments that I read was recognition that the Hand Guard is an option on an already expensive saw. No-one posted a price for the option itself.
The other consideration of the cost is how a saw like that compares to other hobby accessories. My RV trailer cost quite a bit more than an Altendorf saw, and I¡¯ve used it once so far this year ?. Maybe I¡¯ll use it once or twice more this year. My neighbor said his ski boat was $110k, and I see an awful lot of fancy boats at the marina in the summer and trailers full of snowmobiles in the winter. Maybe the cost of an Altendorf or Kappa should not be that far out of line for an enthusiastic non-professional.
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John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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Re: AWFS Updates - After show thoughts
LLN -?
My speculation:
1. I have heard unsubstantiated rumors that Altendorf is under pressure to make more sales and make a distinct product in the sliding saw space that is becoming more crowded. It would?be a shame if this tech didn't live long enough to be perfected, or usurped by the competition, though? in the end it is a standard-of-operating paradigm shift that may make current saws obsolete.
2. A shaper has a lot of rotational energy and mass to stop fast or retract fast. It would?be quite the engineering feat to accomplish.
3. A shaper is supposed to be used in a way that doesn't get your hands into the danger zone to begin with, whereas lots of people seem to operate circular saw blades unguarded and questionably, creates?economic opportunity to supply a solution.
4. Alternative solutions likely?come into play. A high quality shaper with an aux functional safety system is likely?in the budget of a multi-head molding machine at that point.?
There were a few discussions threads in the comments on that youtube video, rather than proper reviews. Some also talked about issues that the system had in certain lighting conditions and when shadows were present. There's quite a bit of comments on the video, but if you wanted to scroll for a while you could pick through them. No proof that any of them are true, but general issues that apply to computer vision systems would most certainly apply here anyway, so no real surprise there.
I did find it interesting that one of the altendorf employees (no idea what his role is... probably sales?) was pretty active in the comment section. He didn't provide a response to any of the issue comments that I saw, but rather only responded to brag about how "awesome" and "unique" the system is, and say how much more unique they are than Felder's system. I found some of his comments to be rather off-putting tbh, but I'm sure it is an great saw regardless.
It is nice to see safety systems get more attention. I wonder if we will ever see these systems get added to other machines, like a shaper? (no idea how feasible that would be)
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Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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Re: AWFS Updates - After show thoughts
There were a few discussions threads in the comments on that youtube video, rather than proper reviews. Some also talked about issues that the system had in certain lighting conditions and when shadows were present. There's quite a bit of comments on the video, but if you wanted to scroll for a while you could pick through them. No proof that any of them are true, but general issues that apply to computer vision systems would most certainly apply here anyway, so no real surprise there.
I did find it interesting that one of the altendorf employees (no idea what his role is... probably sales?) was pretty active in the comment section. He didn't provide a response to any of the issue comments that I saw, but rather only responded to brag about how "awesome" and "unique" the system is, and say how much more unique they are than Felder's system. I found some of his comments to be rather off-putting tbh, but I'm sure it is an great saw regardless.
It is nice to see safety systems get more attention. I wonder if we will ever see these systems get added to other machines, like a shaper? (no idea how feasible that would be)
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Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood
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Re: AWFS Updates - After show thoughts
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Re: AWFS Updates - After show thoughts
Some of the YouTube comments mentioned that the blade failed to drop for someone with dark skin at the show. Given a choice, I would personally never choose a pure vision based system over a system that is less susceptible to environmental interference/false negatives for safety applications.
I see it the same as choosing a camera-only vehicle vs a vehicle that also has lidar, radar, and other supplemental sensors in place. If the Altendorf had some type of failsafe backup system like the PCS in place in addition to the cameras, it would be hard to beat.
That being said, it is still obviously nice to have compared to nothing at all. I just wish that the safety tech would trickle down into the cheaper models sooner. There's just no competition for Sawstop right now for the home-shop market (other than some festool tablesaws in EU?). I think I saw that the Altendorf handguard starts over $65k? My Felder rep said that PCS is a $7k addon to compatible models, so that puts a PCS saw in the low $30k range.?
I hope we see these features becoming available to something like a k700s in the future.
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Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood
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Re: AWFS Updates - After show thoughts
Given the depth of vision recognition in industrial applications I would think the system might be more robust than it seems.
This is now a mature technology?
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Re: AWFS Updates - After show thoughts
The Altendorf looks really nice, but I'm not sure that I would trust a camera based system (especially in a dusty environment) over the sawstop and felder PCS versions.
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Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood
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Re: AWFS Updates - After show thoughts
Just saw this video and it seemed in line with the thread topic.
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Re: Is it possible to visually determine which trunnion on 700 series saws from top?
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On Aug 6, 2023, at 5:19?AM, Trboat <trboatworks@...> wrote:
Thank you for that.
I was uncertain about transition date and was looking for simple visible evidence.
From reading up on this I now gather that April 2007 is the date of change from single to double on the 700 series.
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Re: Hammer saw height adjustment seizing
This is a picture of the brass block that usually gets tight. Looking at it from the front it has a snap ring and roll pin on the shaft.  ?
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Re: Hammer saw height adjustment seizing
Although before posting I did first search the message boards but didn't come across your message Derek, so thanks for repeating it here.?
After several hours of greasing, decreasing, graphite powdering and a lot of lowering and raising I suddenly found a bunch of brass scrapings inside the saw. After that, everything was fixed within minutes. I turns out Rob H was correct. For me the problem lay between the washer #90 and the block #88 (the one closest to the crank). The easiest way to acces the back of the block was from the side of the sliding table. I used WD40 PTFE dry lube spray and it truly worked wonders. Obviously having a well lubricated thread and block #79 by that time will have helped as well.?
In the process of getting access to the thread shaft I did found that Nathan's comment is correct. After unscrewing the electrical panel, also loosening the metal plate from the actual electrical box enables it to be tilted out.
Thanks all for helping out
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Re: Hammer saw height adjustment seizing
What I did was lubricate the drive thread and block that rotates and is circled in red and it made a small amount of difference but did not fix the problem entirely. I was convinced the problem was part 89 which is accessed by removing the hand wheel and then the circlip and washer, I wanted to remove it to add a grease nipple but that requires major work so I took the direct approach. I had a long series drill bit so that allowed me to lay the drill bit on the shaft and drill the block most of the way through parallel to the shaft and bingo instant fix when moly grease is squirted into the created hole. Since then I have never had to add more lubricant so it is a very long term fix.
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Re: Is it possible to visually determine which trunnion on 700 series saws from top?
Thank you for that.
I was uncertain about transition date and was looking for simple visible evidence.
From reading up on this I now gather that April 2007 is the date of change from single to double on the 700 series.
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Not the exact same as yours but I¡¯ve attached a picture?
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Re: Hammer saw height adjustment seizing
I found when I replaced my brakerboard which is housed within the electrical box the same that Derek is removing. I found it difficult to remove until I loosened the meta face plate screws enough for it to be angled enough then removed
my handle is tight around this thread and still haven¡¯t picked up the graphite powder lubricant even after initially reading Derek¡¯s write up. Will get to that :)
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Re: Is it possible to visually determine which trunnion on 700 series saws from top?
Don¡¯t know about sale picture. You can tell from the machine tag, which has the date of manufacture on it. Mike King Special Consultant NERA Economic Consulting +1 303 618-4915
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On Aug 2, 2023, at 4:52 PM, Trboat <trboatworks@...> wrote:
?Hello all,
Is is possible to visually determine the trunnion type on these saws from a typical for sale photo?
Thank you
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Larry Long Neck
Nathan D'Elboux
