Re: Plug for 13.5HP Felder Profil 45
David, is there any benefit to using the 480v rated plug/receptacle you linked for a 240v machine? Like are the 480v ones inherently more durable than their 240v counterparts?
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Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood
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Re: Plug for 13.5HP Felder Profil 45
Ed, a more readable wiring diagram is attached.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
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On Aug 11, 2023, at 7:27 AM, Ed Mazuronis via groups.io <egmiii@...> wrote:
I ordered the 15HP Phase Perfect Enterprise unit this week. Should be here before the end of the month. Thanks for everyone¡¯s feedback. The Profil 45z @ 13.5HP will likely be here next week. I¡¯m the meantime I¡¯d like to get some of the wiring done and parts ordered. Wondering which plug I should use. It seems like the L15-50 should work, but I¡¯d like to know what others have used. Also, does this machine have a neutral that would be bonded to ground in the plug? It¡¯s ordered as a 240v delta, so I¡¯d assume not, but I¡¯ve read of others who have 4 wires plug ground coming from the machine.?
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Re: Plug for 13.5HP Felder Profil 45
Ed, none of the Felder machines configured for USA operation require a neutral. ?They do require a ground.
The L15-50 will certainly work, but is overkill. ?A more economical choice would be the L14-50 - which is commonly used for electric ranges and may not be code compliant because of the lug configuration, but works just fine. ?You also might consider using twist-locks like the Automation Direct 3-phase 30 Amp units listed in the attached.
Attached is a diagram on how I have wired a number of shops with 3-phase.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
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On Aug 11, 2023, at 7:27 AM, Ed Mazuronis via groups.io <egmiii@...> wrote:
I ordered the 15HP Phase Perfect Enterprise unit this week. Should be here before the end of the month. Thanks for everyone¡¯s feedback. The Profil 45z @ 13.5HP will likely be here next week. I¡¯m the meantime I¡¯d like to get some of the wiring done and parts ordered. Wondering which plug I should use. It seems like the L15-50 should work, but I¡¯d like to know what others have used. Also, does this machine have a neutral that would be bonded to ground in the plug? It¡¯s ordered as a 240v delta, so I¡¯d assume not, but I¡¯ve read of others who have 4 wires plug ground coming from the machine.?
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Re: Plug for 13.5HP Felder Profil 45
Ed,
Mine hooked up as normal in the US.? Three legs and a ground.? I did not tie a neutral to ground.
PK
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Re: Plug for 13.5HP Felder Profil 45
Hi Jonathan,
I¡¯m well aware of the difference between neutral and ground. In this particular application, I¡¯ve read the neutral is not used, carries no current, and was recommended tied to ground. That was from a few posts I read about earlier machines from Felder (which were not 3 phase Wye). Wondering if this is still the case on current shapers. I don¡¯t have the machine or manual to do further research on if this is still accurate and was looking to hear what others who have this machine can share. Thanks.?
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Re: Plug for 13.5HP Felder Profil 45
Neutral is not equal to ground (protective earth)!!!!? https://www.electronicshub.org/ground-vs-neutral/#Differences_Ground_vs_Neutral
Kind regards,?
Jonathan
On Aug 11, 2023 16:27, "Ed Mazuronis via groups.io" <egmiii@...> wrote: I ordered the 15HP Phase Perfect Enterprise unit this week. Should be here before the end of the month. Thanks for everyone¡¯s feedback. The Profil 45z @ 13.5HP will likely be here next week. I¡¯m the meantime I¡¯d like to get some of the wiring done and parts ordered. Wondering which plug I should use. It seems like the L15-50 should work, but I¡¯d like to know what others have used. Also, does this machine have a neutral that would be bonded to ground in the plug? It¡¯s ordered as a 240v delta, so I¡¯d assume not, but I¡¯ve read of others who have 4 wires plug ground coming from the machine.?
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Plug for 13.5HP Felder Profil 45
I ordered the 15HP Phase Perfect Enterprise unit this week. Should be here before the end of the month. Thanks for everyone¡¯s feedback. The Profil 45z @ 13.5HP will likely be here next week. I¡¯m the meantime I¡¯d like to get some of the wiring done and parts ordered. Wondering which plug I should use. It seems like the L15-50 should work, but I¡¯d like to know what others have used. Also, does this machine have a neutral that would be bonded to ground in the plug? It¡¯s ordered as a 240v delta, so I¡¯d assume not, but I¡¯ve read of others who have 4 wires plug ground coming from the machine.?
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I was recommended one model of power feeder by a user here, and when I contacted shopgear about it, he instead recommended the Comatic? instead. The arm on this looks short and not sure where I'd place the machine - either directly on the machine or on the special bracket. Has anyone seen, used, or owned one of these that can advise on placement for the AD-941? Attached are the images and only mounting specs (for different machine) I was given.?
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Re: Felder and Format4 machines for sale
I have not listed it yet. But it is a CAMaster Stinger II 49x49 with lots of options. Please contact me and I can send the specifications.
Scott
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Re: AWFS Updates - After show thoughts
Larry, my recollections about availability and price are from a year and a half, maybe two years ago. Things can change fast!
Sounds like the technology is moving down the model lines some, which is great news!
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John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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That is a good sign, it suggests that all Hammer tables are the same and drilled/tapped for the scoring device. In newer machines the switch and electrical control unit can be removed providing some limited access to the innerds. I think the only way to work on my machine is to block the bottom of the planer side and jack up the saw side a foot or so.
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Re: AWFS Updates - After show thoughts
John,
I was going by the recent AWFS promotional pricing listings on Felder's flyer. They listed bundles for k945s and kappa 450 that were both around $26k - $28k. Assuming no other options needed to be added to get the PCS, another $7k gets to low $30k range. It may also be possible to spec one even cheaper if you did a custom build during AWFS without some of the additional add-ons that the pre-configured bundles had. Could be worth checking out next year during IWF.
It is nice to see PCS getting added to the Felder line (though the k945s was very close in price to the Kappa). Hopefully it continues to trickle down!
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Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood
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Re: AWFS Updates - After show thoughts
Great points, Brett. I think that your speculation about Altendorf being under pressure makes a lot of sense. I saw their handguard saw pop up on another YouTube channel a few weeks ago that I never watched before but seemed to be catered toward smaller shops, which I found interesting.
I also hope that the tech sticks around and continues to evolve!?
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Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood
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Re: AWFS Updates - After show thoughts
?¡°My Felder rep said that PCS is a $7k addon to compatible models, so that puts a PCS saw in the low $30k range.¡±
When I was shopping for a slider, I guess it was two years ago now, the PCS was available on only one saw in the USA. That meant US$50k as a minimum. That seemed like a lot at the time.
The comments ?on the Altendorf video made much of the cost of the saw, suggesting the saw with Hand Guard was about $66k and that was totally out of reach of a hobby woodworker. Missing from the comments that I read was recognition that the Hand Guard is an option on an already expensive saw. No-one posted a price for the option itself.
The other consideration of the cost is how a saw like that compares to other hobby accessories. My RV trailer cost quite a bit more than an Altendorf saw, and I¡¯ve used it once so far this year ?. Maybe I¡¯ll use it once or twice more this year. My neighbor said his ski boat was $110k, and I see an awful lot of fancy boats at the marina in the summer and trailers full of snowmobiles in the winter. Maybe the cost of an Altendorf or Kappa should not be that far out of line for an enthusiastic non-professional.
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John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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Re: AWFS Updates - After show thoughts
LLN -?
My speculation:
1. I have heard unsubstantiated rumors that Altendorf is under pressure to make more sales and make a distinct product in the sliding saw space that is becoming more crowded. It would?be a shame if this tech didn't live long enough to be perfected, or usurped by the competition, though? in the end it is a standard-of-operating paradigm shift that may make current saws obsolete.
2. A shaper has a lot of rotational energy and mass to stop fast or retract fast. It would?be quite the engineering feat to accomplish.
3. A shaper is supposed to be used in a way that doesn't get your hands into the danger zone to begin with, whereas lots of people seem to operate circular saw blades unguarded and questionably, creates?economic opportunity to supply a solution.
4. Alternative solutions likely?come into play. A high quality shaper with an aux functional safety system is likely?in the budget of a multi-head molding machine at that point.?
There were a few discussions threads in the comments on that youtube video, rather than proper reviews. Some also talked about issues that the system had in certain lighting conditions and when shadows were present. There's quite a bit of comments on the video, but if you wanted to scroll for a while you could pick through them. No proof that any of them are true, but general issues that apply to computer vision systems would most certainly apply here anyway, so no real surprise there.
I did find it interesting that one of the altendorf employees (no idea what his role is... probably sales?) was pretty active in the comment section. He didn't provide a response to any of the issue comments that I saw, but rather only responded to brag about how "awesome" and "unique" the system is, and say how much more unique they are than Felder's system. I found some of his comments to be rather off-putting tbh, but I'm sure it is an great saw regardless.
It is nice to see safety systems get more attention. I wonder if we will ever see these systems get added to other machines, like a shaper? (no idea how feasible that would be)
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Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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Re: AWFS Updates - After show thoughts
There were a few discussions threads in the comments on that youtube video, rather than proper reviews. Some also talked about issues that the system had in certain lighting conditions and when shadows were present. There's quite a bit of comments on the video, but if you wanted to scroll for a while you could pick through them. No proof that any of them are true, but general issues that apply to computer vision systems would most certainly apply here anyway, so no real surprise there.
I did find it interesting that one of the altendorf employees (no idea what his role is... probably sales?) was pretty active in the comment section. He didn't provide a response to any of the issue comments that I saw, but rather only responded to brag about how "awesome" and "unique" the system is, and say how much more unique they are than Felder's system. I found some of his comments to be rather off-putting tbh, but I'm sure it is an great saw regardless.
It is nice to see safety systems get more attention. I wonder if we will ever see these systems get added to other machines, like a shaper? (no idea how feasible that would be)
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Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood
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Re: AWFS Updates - After show thoughts
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Re: AWFS Updates - After show thoughts
Some of the YouTube comments mentioned that the blade failed to drop for someone with dark skin at the show. Given a choice, I would personally never choose a pure vision based system over a system that is less susceptible to environmental interference/false negatives for safety applications.
I see it the same as choosing a camera-only vehicle vs a vehicle that also has lidar, radar, and other supplemental sensors in place. If the Altendorf had some type of failsafe backup system like the PCS in place in addition to the cameras, it would be hard to beat.
That being said, it is still obviously nice to have compared to nothing at all. I just wish that the safety tech would trickle down into the cheaper models sooner. There's just no competition for Sawstop right now for the home-shop market (other than some festool tablesaws in EU?). I think I saw that the Altendorf handguard starts over $65k? My Felder rep said that PCS is a $7k addon to compatible models, so that puts a PCS saw in the low $30k range.?
I hope we see these features becoming available to something like a k700s in the future.
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Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood
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Re: AWFS Updates - After show thoughts
Given the depth of vision recognition in industrial applications I would think the system might be more robust than it seems.
This is now a mature technology?
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Re: AWFS Updates - After show thoughts
The Altendorf looks really nice, but I'm not sure that I would trust a camera based system (especially in a dusty environment) over the sawstop and felder PCS versions.
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Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood
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Larry Long Neck
David P. Best
PK
Jonathan Martens