Mark, The DOE has a program, Lighting Facts, that has most manufacturers
putting a Lighting Facts label on the box and the marketing, just like
they do with water heaters, lists the CRI, color temps, etc. They are
pretty good at testing, enforcing, and publishing the data.
http://tinyurl.com/jazt8md
On swapping T5 to LED, a few years back I lit a garage with mostly T5HO
and some spots. It's a large residential garage for the client's cars,
large enough to have a full time staff of 2 to 3, depending. He asked
about LED recently and I advised sticking with the T5HO, he can afford
to swap to LED but the hassle of moving the cars and going through the
whole process, and for what?
Here's a couple images, it's lit to about 45 footcandles.
http://tinyurl.com/ht8j2ln | | | | | | Photos, profile and interview with Jon Shirley, featuring in-depth picture gallery of the Jon Shirley automobile collection. Includes Ferrari GTO & other cars. | | | | Preview by Yahoo | | | ?
|
Oh dear, my Irish sense of humour not appreciated ?
|
Hi Mac, I am not fond of routers. I think because when I first started I ran a several hundred feet of trim made with 4 passes on each piece with a router. I avoid them as much as possible. I did build a nice router table years ago, used it once and that was it. Once you have a ?good shaper a noisy router in a table is not very pleasant. I will say when I have to use one I can tolerate the Festo 1400.
I like router bits on the shaper for cuts not possible with shaper cutters. Mostly with the sliding table. Repeats can be set pretty quick with the Distometer or similar. If I cannot set a cutter or bit manually every now and then I am a poor excuse for a woodworker.
|
I don't know what the he'll we're going to do with you. LOL?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-------- Original message -------- From: "mac campshure mac512002@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@...> Date: 2017-01-24 3:09 PM (GMT-05:00) To: felder-woodworking@... Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] FD250
?
Well just to be the odd duck I have been doing this for almost 50 years and have never ever used a router table sorry I guess I am a very very bad boy.? mac,,? Designing and building for 47 years
?
That was sort of my point in our on going discussions, I really couldn't give a rat ass what people spend their hard or nots so hard money on, but quite often they get sold something that they really don't need. Where if they stepped back for a second they could get what they really need and the tooling and still have enough leftover from a cup of coffee.?
-------- Original message -------- From: "Bellsouth dohertyj@... [felder-woodworking]" < felder-woodworking@...> Date: 2017-01-24 2:33 PM (GMT-05:00) To: felder-woodworking@... Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] FD250
?
David,
I was assuming the TSS holders were as much as a Royal holder.
Freeborn shaper cutters are pretty inexpensive. ?I bought a 3/8” cove cutter from California Carbide for around $60. ?
I agree with you though. Being an owner of a Profile 45 X-motion it does not seem practical to use it for router bits for the most part. ?If one wants to use router bits then it might be the wrong machine for the person.
Not sure I agree Joe. ?The individual tool holders on the TSS system are only $20. ? At that kind of price point, the idea might fly. ? I’m not suggesting I’m a devotee of router bits as an alternative to shaper cutters, but if you need a specific cutter profile for occasional use, a throw away router bit and a $20 holder for it is way more cost effective than a $500 shaper cutter. ? Last time I had a knife set made for the Universal Head it was $120. ? Shaper tooling can’t compete with commodity router bits for the unique profile used occasionally. ??
This is all moot anyway - Felder isn’t going to innovate here, they’d prefer to sell shaper tooling than enable router bit use, and their CNC positioning shaper equipment don’t have a fence that will properly position for a router bit use, and the spindles don’t run at 25K RPM. ? Yet another Unicorn. ? :-)
David Best
?
David,
It seems to me that it would be cheaper to buy shaper cutters than holders for a bunch of router bits. ?Shaper cutters are easy to index and program with the profile x-motion.
Joe in New Orleans?
|
Well just to be the odd duck I have been doing this for almost 50 years and have never ever used a router table sorry I guess I am a very very bad boy.? mac,,? Designing and building for 47 years
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 24, 2017, at 1:51 PM, John jmkserv@... [felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
?
That was sort of my point in our on going discussions, I really couldn't give a rat ass what people spend their hard or nots so hard money on, but quite often they get sold something that they really don't need. Where if they stepped back for a second they could get what they really need and the tooling and still have enough leftover from a cup of coffee.?
-------- Original message -------- From: "Bellsouth dohertyj@... [felder-woodworking]" < felder-woodworking@...> Date: 2017-01-24 2:33 PM (GMT-05:00) To: felder-woodworking@... Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] FD250
?
David,
I was assuming the TSS holders were as much as a Royal holder.
Freeborn shaper cutters are pretty inexpensive. ?I bought a 3/8” cove cutter from California Carbide for around $60. ?
I agree with you though. Being an owner of a Profile 45 X-motion it does not seem practical to use it for router bits for the most part. ?If one wants to use router bits then it might be the wrong machine for the person.
Not sure I agree Joe. ?The individual tool holders on the TSS system are only $20. ? At that kind of price point, the idea might fly. ? I’m not suggesting I’m a devotee of router bits as an alternative to shaper cutters, but if you need a specific cutter profile for occasional use, a throw away router bit and a $20 holder for it is way more cost effective than a $500 shaper cutter. ? Last time I had a knife set made for the Universal Head it was $120. ? Shaper tooling can’t compete with commodity router bits for the unique profile used occasionally. ??
This is all moot anyway - Felder isn’t going to innovate here, they’d prefer to sell shaper tooling than enable router bit use, and their CNC positioning shaper equipment don’t have a fence that will properly position for a router bit use, and the spindles don’t run at 25K RPM. ? Yet another Unicorn. ? :-)
David Best
?
David,
It seems to me that it would be cheaper to buy shaper cutters than holders for a bunch of router bits. ?Shaper cutters are easy to index and program with the profile x-motion.
Joe in New Orleans?
|
That was sort of my point in our on going discussions, I really couldn't give a rat ass what people spend their hard or nots so hard money on, but quite often they get sold something that they really don't need. Where if they stepped back for a second they could get what they really need and the tooling and still have enough leftover from a cup of coffee.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-------- Original message -------- From: "Bellsouth dohertyj@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@...> Date: 2017-01-24 2:33 PM (GMT-05:00) To: felder-woodworking@... Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] FD250
?
David,
I was assuming the TSS holders were as much as a Royal holder.
Freeborn shaper cutters are pretty inexpensive. ?I bought a 3/8” cove cutter from California Carbide for around $60. ?
I agree with you though. Being an owner of a Profile 45 X-motion it does not seem practical to use it for router bits for the most part. ?If one wants to use router bits then it might be the wrong machine for the person.
Not sure I agree Joe. ?The individual tool holders on the TSS system are only $20. ? At that kind of price point, the idea might fly. ? I’m not suggesting I’m a devotee of router bits as an alternative to shaper cutters, but if you need a specific cutter profile for occasional use, a throw away router bit and a $20 holder for it is way more cost effective than a $500 shaper cutter. ? Last time I had a knife set made for the Universal Head it was $120. ? Shaper tooling can’t compete with commodity router bits for the unique profile used occasionally. ??
This is all moot anyway - Felder isn’t going to innovate here, they’d prefer to sell shaper tooling than enable router bit use, and their CNC positioning shaper equipment don’t have a fence that will properly position for a router bit use, and the spindles don’t run at 25K RPM. ? Yet another Unicorn. ? :-)
David Best
?
David,
It seems to me that it would be cheaper to buy shaper cutters than holders for a bunch of router bits. ?Shaper cutters are easy to index and program with the profile x-motion.
Joe in New Orleans?
|
When i first got my shaper, about 1.5 years ago, maybe 2 i alos considered getting rid of my router table. I was cash strapped at the time and could get nearly what i payed for my Festool rig.?
I figured i could use the momey for the high speed router spindle and save myself some room.
Man am i glad i did not do that. Over the last two years i have really begun using my shop ona weekly basis, maybe 2-4 full 8 hour plus days a week. As cramped as i am getting i "NEED"? a second router table and shaper. Ok maybe lost between need and want but it sure as hell would help me move along much more quickly.
To be hinest at sime point i will still probably buy the high speed spindle just in the event i find a use for it. Funny how as soon as you have a tool you either find a million things to do with it or ot just sits there...
On Tuesday, January 24, 2017, Bellsouth dohertyj@... [felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
?
David,
I was assuming the TSS holders were as much as a Royal holder.
Freeborn shaper cutters are pretty inexpensive.? I bought a 3/8” cove cutter from California Carbide for around $60. ?
I agree with you though. Being an owner of a Profile 45 X-motion it does not seem practical to use it for router bits for the most part.? If one wants to use router bits then it might be the wrong machine for the person.
Not sure I agree Joe.? The individual tool holders on the TSS system are only $20. ? At that kind of price point, the idea might fly. ? I’m not suggesting I’m a devotee of router bits as an alternative to shaper cutters, but if you need a specific cutter profile for occasional use, a throw away router bit and a $20 holder for it is way more cost effective than a $500 shaper cutter. ? Last time I had a knife set made for the Universal Head it was $120. ? Shaper tooling can’t compete with commodity router bits for the unique profile used occasionally. ??
This is all moot anyway - Felder isn’t going to innovate here, they’d prefer to sell shaper tooling than enable router bit use, and their CNC positioning shaper equipment don’t have a fence that will properly position for a router bit use, and the spindles don’t run at 25K RPM. ? Yet another Unicorn. ? :-)
David Best
?
David,
It seems to me that it would be cheaper to buy shaper cutters than holders for a bunch of router bits.? Shaper cutters are easy to index and program with the profile x-motion.
Joe in New Orleans?
|
David,
I was assuming the TSS holders were as much as a Royal holder.
Freeborn shaper cutters are pretty inexpensive. ?I bought a 3/8” cove cutter from California Carbide for around $60. ?
I agree with you though. Being an owner of a Profile 45 X-motion it does not seem practical to use it for router bits for the most part. ?If one wants to use router bits then it might be the wrong machine for the person.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Not sure I agree Joe. ?The individual tool holders on the TSS system are only $20. ? At that kind of price point, the idea might fly. ? I’m not suggesting I’m a devotee of router bits as an alternative to shaper cutters, but if you need a specific cutter profile for occasional use, a throw away router bit and a $20 holder for it is way more cost effective than a $500 shaper cutter. ? Last time I had a knife set made for the Universal Head it was $120. ? Shaper tooling can’t compete with commodity router bits for the unique profile used occasionally. ??
This is all moot anyway - Felder isn’t going to innovate here, they’d prefer to sell shaper tooling than enable router bit use, and their CNC positioning shaper equipment don’t have a fence that will properly position for a router bit use, and the spindles don’t run at 25K RPM. ? Yet another Unicorn. ? :-)
David Best
?
David,
It seems to me that it would be cheaper to buy shaper cutters than holders for a bunch of router bits. ?Shaper cutters are easy to index and program with the profile x-motion.
Joe in New Orleans?
|
Not sure I agree Joe. ?The individual tool holders on the TSS system are only $20. ? At that kind of price point, the idea might fly. ? I’m not suggesting I’m a devotee of router bits as an alternative to shaper cutters, but if you need a specific cutter profile for occasional use, a throw away router bit and a $20 holder for it is way more cost effective than a $500 shaper cutter. ? Last time I had a knife set made for the Universal Head it was $120. ? Shaper tooling can’t compete with commodity router bits for the unique profile used occasionally. ??
This is all moot anyway - Felder isn’t going to innovate here, they’d prefer to sell shaper tooling than enable router bit use, and their CNC positioning shaper equipment don’t have a fence that will properly position for a router bit use, and the spindles don’t run at 25K RPM. ? Yet another Unicorn. ? :-)
David Best
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
?
David,
It seems to me that it would be cheaper to buy shaper cutters than holders for a bunch of router bits. ?Shaper cutters are easy to index and program with the profile x-motion.
Joe in New Orleans?
?
Glen, I’ve been thinking about the challenge of using the xMotion positioning controls on the Profil 45 for programmatic storage of router bit setups. ? I suppose it’s possible to come up with some kind of spacer that would sit between the bottom of the router bit and the top of the collet that would ensure each router bit consistently registers vertically each time it's installed, but I have my doubts. ? The right approach (forgive me, but my machinist proclivities are taking over my brain now), is some kind of simple inexpensive tool holder for each router bit that registers consistently in a receiver/chuck atop the shaper spindle. ? The system that comes to my mind is the TSS system from Tormach - something like that ?(??). ? Kind of a poor-man’s CAT40 solution for router bits. ? The new Hammer shaper spindle system is similar in concept (one spindle with different tool holder types on top) but aimed at reducing the cost to provide conversion from 3/4” shaper tooling to router bits rather than consistent tool registration for CNC use. ? Sorry - I do have a tendency to go down rabbit holes. ? Have yet to find a Unicorn down any of them, but there are lots of sheep down there. ? LOL
I will photograph the NOS I have available of wire rope and gripples and send you those in a PM tomorrow.
David Best
?
Hi John
Ok this is something I did not think about. I am getting a Profil Z X motion. I am getting the understanding about setting the cutterheads and programing them in the data base but I really did not think about the spindle shaper. I figured if I just bottom out the router bit in the spindle I could program those as well. Now thinking about it not knowing what the chuck depth is that I might not be able to bottom out the bit which by my thinking make the tooling memory of the machine totally useless.
Am I on track here?
Glen
And I will never say it enough, thank you and all for my learning curve ?
-----Original Message-----
From: John Kee jmkserv@... [felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...>
To: FOG < felder-woodworking@...>
Sent: Mon, Jan 23, 2017 4:11 am
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] FD250
?
Problem with using router bits in a shaper is the aggravation of setup. The truth is you could probably buy a dedicated router table setup for the price of the router spindle. This of course is if you have the room for another piece of equipment.
|
David,
It seems to me that it would be cheaper to buy shaper cutters than holders for a bunch of router bits. ?Shaper cutters are easy to index and program with the profile x-motion.
Joe in New Orleans?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
?
Glen, I’ve been thinking about the challenge of using the xMotion positioning controls on the Profil 45 for programmatic storage of router bit setups. ? I suppose it’s possible to come up with some kind of spacer that would sit between the bottom of the router bit and the top of the collet that would ensure each router bit consistently registers vertically each time it's installed, but I have my doubts. ? The right approach (forgive me, but my machinist proclivities are taking over my brain now), is some kind of simple inexpensive tool holder for each router bit that registers consistently in a receiver/chuck atop the shaper spindle. ? The system that comes to my mind is the TSS system from Tormach - something like that ?(??). ? Kind of a poor-man’s CAT40 solution for router bits. ? The new Hammer shaper spindle system is similar in concept (one spindle with different tool holder types on top) but aimed at reducing the cost to provide conversion from 3/4” shaper tooling to router bits rather than consistent tool registration for CNC use. ? Sorry - I do have a tendency to go down rabbit holes. ? Have yet to find a Unicorn down any of them, but there are lots of sheep down there. ? LOL
I will photograph the NOS I have available of wire rope and gripples and send you those in a PM tomorrow.
David Best
?
Hi John
Ok this is something I did not think about. I am getting a Profil Z X motion. I am getting the understanding about setting the cutterheads and programing them in the data base but I really did not think about the spindle shaper. I figured if I just bottom out the router bit in the spindle I could program those as well. Now thinking about it not knowing what the chuck depth is that I might not be able to bottom out the bit which by my thinking make the tooling memory of the machine totally useless.
Am I on track here?
Glen
And I will never say it enough, thank you and all for my learning curve ?
-----Original Message-----
From: John Kee jmkserv@... [felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...>
To: FOG < felder-woodworking@...>
Sent: Mon, Jan 23, 2017 4:11 am
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] FD250
?
Problem with using router bits in a shaper is the aggravation of setup. The truth is you could probably buy a dedicated router table setup for the price of the router spindle. This of course is if you have the room for another piece of equipment.
|
Hi Joe. Another here with an Incra fence/router table set up. The shaper is great, but I have to say I like to have the router table for a lot of the lighter work I do.?
+1 on the accuracy of the Incra positioner/Super fence system. The positioning capability especially adds capability on complex parts and convenience.
Thanks for the thought re. using the router table as an outfeed table. I'm very tight for space, and need an outfeed on my 8ft K3 saw (I've been getting by using the tables I use for assembly) but have to confess I hadn't thought of using it for that.
My table has the fence across the narrow dimension - which may or may not have been a good call since I've not needed the capacity so far. (when I bought it i was thinking of maybe on occasion needing to handle large parts) Which unfortunately doesn't lend itself to using it in situ at the saw - but since it's on castors it won't be a big problem...
ian
|
Only works for me from my cell and only copy Designing and building for 47 years
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 24, 2017, at 9:34 AM, joelgelman@... [felder-woodworking] < felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
?
I thought if I copied and pasted a picture in my post it would show up, but it did not. ?I added a photo in the photos section showing the shaper-router table "combination machine".
|
Re: LED, Fluorescent, Juno, and spray foam.
Having tested (visually, not scientifically) a couple dozen or so LED bulbs, I'd agree that CRI is not a guarantee of subjective light quality. ?For example, I find Sorra 80 CRI bulbs noticeably better than most 90 CRI bulbs.
Another question is whether the CRI on a given bulb is even true. ?I have not looked into it specifically, but I am not aware of any independent testing or certification process -- manufacturers just self-declare CRI. ?I bet if manufacturers tested each others' bulbs, there'd be more than a little rating debate.?
Although my house is all LED, I still have T5 in my shop. ? I have not found a LED that I really like and makes any economic sense, replacement-wise (though if I was starting from scratch I would probably go LED)
Mark
|
Re: LED, Fluorescent, Juno, and spray foam.
On LED versus Florescent please do some reading on the light spectrum.? Color temp is very misleading.? CRI is a better indicator but not great. The lighting industry
has been trying to create a new rating system for many years.? The current proposal is CQS, or color quality score.?
?
Here is a link to a video that’s a bit long but very educational on how different light sources radically change what we see. I’ve also read that LED bulb manufacturers
are tweaking their bulbs to score better on the CRI index but the quality of the light is actually a lot worse.
?
Why does this matter, I feel that having accurate light is important in woodworking to see what the pieces will look like outside the shop.? I have 36 four foot
Florescent bulbs in my shop and a couple of years ago I upgraded to high efficiency ballasts and new premium bulbs that have high CRI and high efficiency.? Wholesale the bulbs were like $7 each and not as efficient as low color accuracy bulbs but there is
a tradeoff.
?
If building a dream shop I’d have lots of natural light from windows and skylights…joe
?
?
?
?
|
I thought if I copied and pasted a picture in my post it would show up, but it did not. ?I added a photo in the photos section showing the shaper-router table "combination machine".
|
My solution to the router bit problem. ?I considered not having a router table when I got my shaper or having my shaper be the router table. ?Then, after receiving mixed feedback on the spindle speed on my particular shaper not ?being fast enough plus having to drill holes farther back to mount the fence etc. I decided to have both. ?This setup was the best way to reduce space in the shop. ?The router table has leveling castors and the table is flush with the shaper table. ?With the Incra fence back and no bit protruding, the router table serves as the outfeed table for the shaper. ?When I want to use router bits on the router table, I move the shaper fence forward and in from the outfeed side, and I have clearance for the router table fence to move forward. ?the Incra is a very accurate router table fence system. ? If I really had a need to make router cuts with the fence farther back, I could always roll the router table forward but I have no need for that as most of my router work is where the fence is close to the bit. ?The shaper serves at the router table infeed extension table. ?Dust collection for both are in the same area behind the machines. ?
|
Damn, I should have proof read my last message.
Corrected below.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 24, 2017, at 7:17 AM, Bellsouth <dohertyj@...> wrote:
John is correct. The fence and hood on the Profile X-motion will not move back far enough to use small router bits.
With router bits the reference point for height will vary for profile bits.
Using a straight router bit offers few advantages over a straight shaper cutter, so profile bits are probably what you will need to set up and those would be referenced off the the start of the curve or something.
As others have pointed out there is no repeatability of set up of the router bit in the collet on the Profile X-motion.
The desire for flexibility offered by the router spindle in the Profile X-motion shaper is tempered by the high cost.
I do use the router bit spindle on my CF731 combo machine. I have not found repeatability to be a problem here, when I want to use a router bit I set it by eye then do a test cut adjust and go.
I don’t think that Felder shapers other than the Profile X-motion suffer from the fence/small router bit clearance issue. On the non-automated fences you can drill more holes in the shaper table to allow mounting the hood further back for more clearance. This is not possible with the X-motion hood and fence.
Joe in New Orleans
|
John,
Is correct. ?The fence and hood not he Profile X-motion will not move back far enough to use small router bits.
With router bits the reference point for height will vary for profile bits.
Using a straight router bit offers few advantages over a straight shaper cutter, so profile bits are probably what you will need to set up and those would be referenced off the the start of the curve or something.?
As other shave pointed out there is not repeatability of set of the router bit in the collet on the Profile X-motion.
The desire for flexibility offered by the router spindle in the Profile X-motion shaper is tempered by the high cost. ?
I do use the router spindle on the my CF731 combo machine. ?I found repeatability to be a problem here, when I want to use a router bit I set it by eye then do a test cut adjust and go. ?
I don’t think that Felder shapers other than the Profile X-motion suffer from the fence clearance issue. ?On the non-automated fences you can drill more holes in the shaper table to allow mounting the hood further back for more clearance. ?This is not possible with the X-motion hood and fence.
Joe in New Orleans
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Glen, you typically can't bury a router bit full depth in a collet so using a computer could be a problem. Plus there is a lot of variances from manufacturer's. I ?thought you had mentioned the Profile, you'll have to refer to David B. I ?use a F700Z and have modified the fence to go to the centerline of the router spindle, not sure if this possible for the Profile fence. There are a lot of affordable shaper cutters that basically eliminate the need for router bits in a shaper. I like most have spent the money and learned a lesson, the good thing about the F700Z is you don't have to take out mortgage to buy the spindles. Yum?
|
Glen, you typically can't bury a router bit full depth in a collet so using a computer could be a problem. Plus there is a lot of variances from manufacturer's. I ?thought you had mentioned the Profile, you'll have to refer to David B. I ?use a F700Z and have modified the fence to go to the centerline of the router spindle, not sure if this possible for the Profile fence. There are a lot of affordable shaper cutters that basically eliminate the need for router bits in a shaper. I like most have spent the money and learned a lesson, the good thing about the F700Z is you don't have to take out mortgage to buy the spindles. Yum?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-------- Original message -------- From: "GLEN chris3645@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@...> Date: 2017-01-24 12:20 AM (GMT-05:00) To: felder-woodworking@... Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] FD250
?
Hi John
Ok this is something I did not think about. I am getting a Profil Z X motion. I am getting the understanding about setting the cutterheads and programing them in the data base but I really did not think about the spindle shaper. I figured if I just bottom out the router bit in the spindle I could program those as well. Now thinking about it not knowing what the chuck depth is that I might not be able to bottom out the bit which by my thinking make the tooling memory of the machine totally useless.
Am I on track here?
Glen
And I will never say it enough, thank you and all for my learning curve ?
-----Original Message-----
From: John Kee jmkserv@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...>
To: FOG <felder-woodworking@...>
Sent: Mon, Jan 23, 2017 4:11 am
Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] FD250
?
Problem with using router bits in a shaper is the aggravation of setup. The truth is you could probably buy a dedicated router table setup for the price of the router spindle. This of course is if you have the room for another piece of equipment.
|
|
|
David P. Best
Joe Jensen