Re: Hardwood glue-up panel on top on cabinet - wood movement
Brian, off thread but I seem to have acquired the ability to communicate again. Are you sure I hadn't upset you :-)
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Paul Mc Cann
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Re: Hardwood glue-up panel on top on cabinet - wood movement
Be careful how you orient the grain. If you restrict movement across the grain the top may buckle
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Paul Mc Cann
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Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
David,
Thanks for the details. My KF700 is from 2002. So just to add perspective on lube in nearly 20 yrs I have cleaned and lubed following twice:
- worm screw for angle change
- the casting surfaces on front and rear where the mechanism slides during angle change
- dovetails for shaper elevation
Obviously in commercial use it would be more often and perhaps i should have done it more often but everything works just like when it was new. I do not envision more than annual maintenance in hobby use.
Point being it is not a big job that would take a lot of time. I know you are not saying that but I thought it would help a new owner to be aware of what this maintenance entails.
Imran?
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On Jan 7, 2021, at 1:34 AM, david@... via groups.io <david@...> wrote: ? Guys, I was all over this with Carl Knapp at Felder to help Mike evaluate the machine. ?The build date is April 2006, and you can tell the trunion configuration by looking at the scoring saw elevation adjustments are in the throat plate. ? As I posted earlier, t his particular KF700 has a double trunion - not the single trunion from the pre-2004 era Brian is talking about. ?What it does not have is the new EasyGlide (Delrin) runners in the trunion, so it requires lube and more maintenance.
On Jan 6, 2021, at 5:00 PM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
I don’t think so, it was a single trunnion machine.
According to someone the saw in this sale had double turnip. It has xroll ad can be seen in pics.
Imran On Jan 6, 2021, at 6:24 PM, bacchus6015 via < joeinno@...> wrote: ? Brian,
I agree, the double trunnion and X-roll are definitely better.
Joe On Jan 6, 2021, at 3:20 PM, Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote:
? It’s not a strength thing, it’s an adjustment thing. If the trunnion is out of adjustment, it’s a pretty complicated process to get it right. Felder themselves went to the double trunnion because the single trunnion was more of a maintenance issue and not easy adjusted in the field without tricky jigs or hit and miss type efforts.
The older machines have some short comings, first, if they are as old as mine, you don’t have the X-roll slider, which was a pretty significant upgrade in these machines. Next major design change was the double trunnion. That’s not to say a single trunnion machine can’t be used, but if I had my choices, any new purchase for me would have to have the X-roll and double trunnion, those two things are going to make for longevity and accuracy compared to those machines without.
It’s up to the user/purchaser’s level of competence in doing complicated setting up of the machine as to wether they feel comfortable delving into the single trunnion machine design.
On Jan 6, 2021, at 2:04 PM, bacchus6015 via < joeinno@...> wrote:
Brian,
I know that but I was wondering what Mike thought.
I ran 40 pound cutters on the year 2000 F700z I had with single trunnion and it worked. ?Hansjorg Felder told me the single trunnion was strong enough when I toured the Felder factory. ?
That said I would not recommend running 40 pound cutters for production but a hobby user running 6 or even 8” cutters on a single trunnion will be fine.
I think price is the limiting factor for this lot but I would not worry about the trunnions.?
Joe
On Jan 6, 2021, at 11:50 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
The older machines have a single trunnion affair and it supports the whole spindle and motor system on one end of the assembly. This brings into account an adjustment nightmare dealing with “angle of the dangle” as well as toe-in and toe-out in the other direction. Failure to get the angle correct creates all sorts of issues when tilting the saw/shaper aggregate.
All that said, my old machine is of this design and once set, it’s pretty stable. If I was looking for a machine though, it would be the double trunnion machine… more easily adjusted and has better longevity of settings, and with the polymer materials used in the trunnion the smoothness and easiness of tilting is considerably better. On Jan 6, 2021, at 12:40 PM, bacchus6015 via ??< joeinno@...> wrote:
Mike,
What are the Trunion issues?
Joe
For a lot of reasons and assistance from some amazing people on FOG, I have backed out of this deal. ?The accessories and tooling are great, but the high price, age and trunnion issues make this offering good from afar, but far from good. ?Unfortunately, the seller will not part out the tooling and/or accessories and prefers to sell as a package deal. ?
Back on the search and contemplating buying new.
Thanks to everyone for their thoughts!
--?
Mike Barrow
|
David, here are some more pictures. Sorry for the delay.. The sled attaches to the T-slot with two screws. One goes into the same T-nut I use for the crosscut fence, the other goes into a seperate T-nut (bought from Felder). The two aluminum brackets are for locating the sled at the exact same spot every time. By using aluminum extrusions for the base I have unlimited posibilities to attach jigs.   
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Re: Felder High Speed Router Spindle 424-111
Bill, I have a router table and I recently bought the high speed spindle for my KF700. I have a really small work shop. Initially I put my router table out for sale. When I got a buyer on it I got cold feet. I told the buyer it was not for sale anymore. I have put too many building hours into that table, I didn't have heart to sell it. It's now stashed away due to lack of space, but I do miss two features from it. Both of which I will probably implement on the KF700:
1. Incra fence
2. Incra magna lock
My router table is home built with a Festool OF 2200 permanently mounted. I have never had any viration issues or lack of power. But the KF700 is really smooht, even at the lower speed (15k).
If I would have space for it I would definitely use the router table. The setup time is faster for small jobs.
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Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
Guys, I was all over this with Carl Knapp at Felder to help Mike evaluate the machine. ?The build date is April 2006, and you can tell the trunion configuration by looking at the scoring saw elevation adjustments are in the throat plate. ? As I posted earlier, t his particular KF700 has a double trunion - not the single trunion from the pre-2004 era Brian is talking about. ?What it does not have is the new EasyGlide (Delrin) runners in the trunion, so it requires lube and more maintenance.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jan 6, 2021, at 5:00 PM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
I don’t think so, it was a single trunnion machine.
According to someone the saw in this sale had double turnip. It has xroll ad can be seen in pics.
Imran On Jan 6, 2021, at 6:24 PM, bacchus6015 via < joeinno@...> wrote: ? Brian,
I agree, the double trunnion and X-roll are definitely better.
Joe On Jan 6, 2021, at 3:20 PM, Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote:
? It’s not a strength thing, it’s an adjustment thing. If the trunnion is out of adjustment, it’s a pretty complicated process to get it right. Felder themselves went to the double trunnion because the single trunnion was more of a maintenance issue and not easy adjusted in the field without tricky jigs or hit and miss type efforts.
The older machines have some short comings, first, if they are as old as mine, you don’t have the X-roll slider, which was a pretty significant upgrade in these machines. Next major design change was the double trunnion. That’s not to say a single trunnion machine can’t be used, but if I had my choices, any new purchase for me would have to have the X-roll and double trunnion, those two things are going to make for longevity and accuracy compared to those machines without.
It’s up to the user/purchaser’s level of competence in doing complicated setting up of the machine as to wether they feel comfortable delving into the single trunnion machine design.
On Jan 6, 2021, at 2:04 PM, bacchus6015 via < joeinno@...> wrote:
Brian,
I know that but I was wondering what Mike thought.
I ran 40 pound cutters on the year 2000 F700z I had with single trunnion and it worked. ?Hansjorg Felder told me the single trunnion was strong enough when I toured the Felder factory. ?
That said I would not recommend running 40 pound cutters for production but a hobby user running 6 or even 8” cutters on a single trunnion will be fine.
I think price is the limiting factor for this lot but I would not worry about the trunnions.?
Joe
On Jan 6, 2021, at 11:50 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
The older machines have a single trunnion affair and it supports the whole spindle and motor system on one end of the assembly. This brings into account an adjustment nightmare dealing with “angle of the dangle” as well as toe-in and toe-out in the other direction. Failure to get the angle correct creates all sorts of issues when tilting the saw/shaper aggregate.
All that said, my old machine is of this design and once set, it’s pretty stable. If I was looking for a machine though, it would be the double trunnion machine… more easily adjusted and has better longevity of settings, and with the polymer materials used in the trunnion the smoothness and easiness of tilting is considerably better. On Jan 6, 2021, at 12:40 PM, bacchus6015 via ??< joeinno@...> wrote:
Mike,
What are the Trunion issues?
Joe
For a lot of reasons and assistance from some amazing people on FOG, I have backed out of this deal. ?The accessories and tooling are great, but the high price, age and trunnion issues make this offering good from afar, but far from good. ?Unfortunately, the seller will not part out the tooling and/or accessories and prefers to sell as a package deal. ?
Back on the search and contemplating buying new.
Thanks to everyone for their thoughts!
--?
Mike Barrow
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Re: Mantle Build Question
Mark,
I totally agree. I thought that the weak point of simple mounting block are exactly what you mention. The movement of wood (in the mounting block) under lateral load from screw or the screw itself bending. I thought use of hardwood mounting block, a super tight fit and screws appropriate in shank size would overcome that. Never disagreed that french cleat is not superior.
I would be interested in knowing if Joe Jensen figured out the reason of the sag and whether it could be remedied. His decision to go with french cleat may be because he did not think so but still bd good to know.
Imran
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On Jan 6, 2021, at 9:17 PM, mark thomas <murkyd@...> wrote: ?On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 02:54 PM, imranindiana wrote:
The simplicity of a mounting block is still attractive. I do not see why it would sag.
When a french cleat is loaded downward, there's a wedging force that pulls it tighter to the wall.? ? When a square block is loaded, the downward load creates a "racking" (rotational) force as David B noted. This drawing illustrates. <Screen Shot 2021-01-06 at 5.52.35 PM.png>
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I did a google search and found this?
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Re: Mantle Build Question
On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 02:54 PM, imranindiana wrote:
The simplicity of a mounting block is still attractive. I do not see why it would sag.
When a french cleat is loaded downward, there's a wedging force that pulls it tighter to the wall.? ? When a square block is loaded, the downward load creates a "racking" (rotational) force as David B noted. This drawing illustrates. 
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Re: Kappa 400 Below Table Dust Extraction + Kappa 400 Review
All I was saying is that if I new in the beginning that I would end up spending the amount of dollars I ended up spending I would have been looking at Martin and/or Altendorf, I originally only planned on spending 10k
I only ended up in Felder world due to replacing a J/P, I wanted the SCM version but it was 3 phase only an I didn’t have that and somehow found my way to the AD941. I hadn’t even planned on a saw until this year but because of some issues with the AD941 I got a “deal” on the K700s, anyways the K940s is a really nice build for the money it’s actually what I was expecting the k700s to be.
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On Jan 6, 2021, at 2:13 PM, Bill James via groups.io <xxrb2010@...> wrote:
?Mark,
Can you give us more colors about your reasoning of virtually going T60 instead of K940, or even T60 instead of Kappa 400 (basic no X motion). Price wise, as far as I know, a T60 with DRO is more comparable to a Kappa 400 basic.
Thanks,
Bill
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Will be nice 46 degree both ways and capacity cut thicker. I’m still will check with prices Martin and altendorf F45 Elmo drive ?I believe altendorf it s top the line cuz that company only do sliding tables. ? If numbers will be the same as altendorf . No questions altendorf.? Elegance Custom Cabinetry? Minneapolis, Minnesota?
Regards?
Dmitry Ivanovs .
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On Jan 6, 2021, at 18:34, Glen Christensen <grchris1966@...> wrote:
?
Dmitry, I have to ask why do you want the 590? I looked at it at the vegas show and while I liked it I could not justify the price upgrade. I had a brand new Kappa x-motion still setting on the palette at my shop and Felder offered a full refund on what I paid towards the 590. I almost went for it but that was in the beginning of my shop build out and I still need wiring, phase converter, and ducting. Glen
Alpine Moulding and Millwork Inc.
Mail: ?? P.O. Box 257 ?????????? Avery, CA. 95224 Shop: 441 Pennsylvania Gulch Road ????????? Murphys, CA. 95247
????????? 650-678-3137 LIC # 707507
On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 3:44 PM Dmitry Ivanovs via <divanov2= [email protected]> wrote: Anybody need Kappa 400 for 15k ? I wanna 590 :) time to update? Elegance Custom Cabinetry? Minneapolis, Minnesota?
Regards?
Dmitry Ivanovs . ?Curious to know what that costs new and what it will go for.
FYI.? The listing says $45,000 CDN ($35,349 USD) new. ?
So interesting to see the 6k USD current bid.? Makes you think it will be a steal, but all that of course changes in the last 15 minutes, especially when I am bidding on something.
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Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
I could be wrong, but I don’t think the double trunnion came about until about 2007-2008. There were quite a few years with the X-roll but still single trunnion.
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This KF700 has a double trunion - not the single trunion from the pre-2004 era Brian is talking about. ?What it does not have is the new EasyGlide (Delrin) runners in the trunion, so it requires lube and more maintenance.
Thanks Brian for your description. I'm sure that the older trunnion may be just fine, but it does require more cleaning, lubrication and perhaps fussing with adjustments. ?That being said both saws that I reviewed were in acceptable condition and in need of attention. In need of attention from the stand point that it was difficult to tilt the saw blade and shaper trunnions. So did both saws need a good cleaning under the hood? ?Yes. ?Perhaps I could have purchased either KF700, cleaned lubricated and taken care of the issue. ?Perhaps after cleaning and lubricating I would have needed to learn how to make adjustments, repairs or have Felder service visit and spend a pretty penny adjusting or fixing a 14 to 17 year old KF700.
There are a variety of reasons why I chose not to buy these saws. ?I have learned a lot from this experience. ?I feel that a KF700 with newer double trunnions would be a better choice for me. These saws will probably make some lucky buyers very happy. It is important to do your due diligence in any machine purchase, however and my experience led me to a point were I needed to move on.
--
Mike Barrow
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Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
I don’t think so, it was a single trunnion machine.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
According to someone the saw in this sale had double turnip. It has xroll ad can be seen in pics.
Imran On Jan 6, 2021, at 6:24 PM, bacchus6015 via < joeinno@...> wrote: ? Brian,
I agree, the double trunnion and X-roll are definitely better.
Joe On Jan 6, 2021, at 3:20 PM, Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote:
? It’s not a strength thing, it’s an adjustment thing. If the trunnion is out of adjustment, it’s a pretty complicated process to get it right. Felder themselves went to the double trunnion because the single trunnion was more of a maintenance issue and not easy adjusted in the field without tricky jigs or hit and miss type efforts.
The older machines have some short comings, first, if they are as old as mine, you don’t have the X-roll slider, which was a pretty significant upgrade in these machines. Next major design change was the double trunnion. That’s not to say a single trunnion machine can’t be used, but if I had my choices, any new purchase for me would have to have the X-roll and double trunnion, those two things are going to make for longevity and accuracy compared to those machines without.
It’s up to the user/purchaser’s level of competence in doing complicated setting up of the machine as to wether they feel comfortable delving into the single trunnion machine design.
On Jan 6, 2021, at 2:04 PM, bacchus6015 via < joeinno@...> wrote:
Brian,
I know that but I was wondering what Mike thought.
I ran 40 pound cutters on the year 2000 F700z I had with single trunnion and it worked. ?Hansjorg Felder told me the single trunnion was strong enough when I toured the Felder factory. ?
That said I would not recommend running 40 pound cutters for production but a hobby user running 6 or even 8” cutters on a single trunnion will be fine.
I think price is the limiting factor for this lot but I would not worry about the trunnions.?
Joe
On Jan 6, 2021, at 11:50 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote:
The older machines have a single trunnion affair and it supports the whole spindle and motor system on one end of the assembly. This brings into account an adjustment nightmare dealing with “angle of the dangle” as well as toe-in and toe-out in the other direction. Failure to get the angle correct creates all sorts of issues when tilting the saw/shaper aggregate.
All that said, my old machine is of this design and once set, it’s pretty stable. If I was looking for a machine though, it would be the double trunnion machine… more easily adjusted and has better longevity of settings, and with the polymer materials used in the trunnion the smoothness and easiness of tilting is considerably better. On Jan 6, 2021, at 12:40 PM, bacchus6015 via ??< joeinno@...> wrote:
Mike,
What are the Trunion issues?
Joe
For a lot of reasons and assistance from some amazing people on FOG, I have backed out of this deal. ?The accessories and tooling are great, but the high price, age and trunnion issues make this offering good from afar, but far from good. ?Unfortunately, the seller will not part out the tooling and/or accessories and prefers to sell as a package deal. ?
Back on the search and contemplating buying new.
Thanks to everyone for their thoughts!
--?
Mike Barrow
|
Re: Hardwood glue-up panel on top on cabinet - wood movement
Thanks a lot,
Just need to finish my drawers and built the top,
Bill
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Re: Hardwood glue-up panel on top on cabinet - wood movement
On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 05:46 PM, Brian Lamb wrote:
As in a countertop type thing on the box cabinets
Yes, same idea, but for girly stuff on top :) Bill
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Dmitry, I have to ask why do you want the 590? I looked at it at the vegas show and while I liked it I could not justify the price upgrade. I had a brand new Kappa x-motion still setting on the palette at my shop and Felder offered a full refund on what I paid towards the 590. I almost went for it but that was in the beginning of my shop build out and I still need wiring, phase converter, and ducting. Glen
Alpine Moulding and Millwork Inc.
Mail: ?? P.O. Box 257 ?????????? Avery, CA. 95224 Shop: 441 Pennsylvania Gulch Road ????????? Murphys, CA. 95247
????????? 650-678-3137 LIC # 707507
On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 3:44 PM Dmitry Ivanovs via <divanov2= [email protected]> wrote: Anybody need Kappa 400 for 15k ? I wanna 590 :) time to update? Elegance Custom Cabinetry? Minneapolis, Minnesota?
Regards?
Dmitry Ivanovs . ?Curious to know what that costs new and what it will go for.
FYI.? The listing says $45,000 CDN ($35,349 USD) new. ?
So interesting to see the 6k USD current bid.? Makes you think it will be a steal, but all that of course changes in the last 15 minutes, especially when I am bidding on something.
|
Re: KF700sp and AD741 used pricing
Actually Imran, the turnip made more sense than turnion ?
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On Jan 6, 2021, at 7:20 PM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? [Edited Message Follows]
[Reason: turnip? not even one but two. that is a deal, LOL]
According to another poster the saw in this sale has double turnion. It has xroll as can be seen in pics.
?
Imran
On Jan 6, 2021, at 6:24 PM, bacchus6015 via groups.io <joeinno@...> wrote:
Brian,
?
I agree, the double trunnion and X-roll are definitely better.
?
Joe
?
On Jan 6, 2021, at 3:20 PM, Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote:
It’s not a strength thing, it’s an adjustment thing. If the trunnion is out of adjustment, it’s a pretty complicated process to get it right. Felder themselves went to the double trunnion because the single trunnion was more of a maintenance issue and not easy adjusted in the field without tricky jigs or hit and miss type efforts.
?
The older machines have some short comings, first, if they are as old as mine, you don’t have the X-roll slider, which was a pretty significant upgrade in these machines. Next major design change was the double trunnion. That’s not to say a single trunnion machine can’t be used, but if I had my choices, any new purchase for me would have to have the X-roll and double trunnion, those two things are going to make for longevity and accuracy compared to those machines without.
?
It’s up to the user/purchaser’s level of competence in doing complicated setting up of the machine as to wether they feel comfortable delving into the single trunnion machine design.
On Jan 6, 2021, at 2:04 PM, bacchus6015 via < joeinno@...> wrote:
Brian,
?
I know that but I was wondering what Mike thought.
?
I ran 40 pound cutters on the year 2000 F700z I had with single trunnion and it worked. ?Hansjorg Felder told me the single trunnion was strong enough when I toured the Felder factory. ?
?
That said I would not recommend running 40 pound cutters for production but a hobby user running 6 or even 8” cutters on a single trunnion will be fine.
?
I think price is the limiting factor for this lot but I would not worry about the trunnions.?
?
Joe
?
On Jan 6, 2021, at 11:50 AM, Brian Lamb < blamb11@...> wrote: The older machines have a single trunnion affair and it supports the whole spindle and motor system on one end of the assembly. This brings into account an adjustment nightmare dealing with “angle of the dangle” as well as toe-in and toe-out in the other direction. Failure to get the angle correct creates all sorts of issues when tilting the saw/shaper aggregate.
?
All that said, my old machine is of this design and once set, it’s pretty stable. If I was looking for a machine though, it would be the double trunnion machine… more easily adjusted and has better longevity of settings, and with the polymer materials used in the trunnion the smoothness and easiness of tilting is considerably better.
On Jan 6, 2021, at 12:40 PM, bacchus6015 via ??< joeinno@...> wrote:
Mike,
?
What are the Trunion issues?
?
?
Joe
?
For a lot of reasons and assistance from some amazing people on FOG, I have backed out of this deal. ?The accessories and tooling are great, but the high price, age and trunnion issues make this offering good from afar, but far from good. ?Unfortunately, the seller will not part out the tooling and/or accessories and prefers to sell as a package deal. ?
Back on the search and contemplating buying new.
Thanks to everyone for their thoughts!
--?
Mike Barrow
|
Re: Mantle Build Question
Thanks Brian. Very interesting.
Imran
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On Jan 6, 2021, at 6:12 PM, Brian Lamb <blamb11@...> wrote: ? Hafele makes a lag that has two adjustable eccentric collars on it. You install them into the wall studs, drill holes 13mm or 17/32” in diameter about 5” deep into the shelf and then adjust the collars to make the shelf perpendicular to the way and slide the shelf on. No visible means of support and they work well. Not sure if I’d use them for a solid 7” thick mantel unless I could get two or more vertically on each stud, but they work great for shelving.
<00012742_0.jpeg>
On Jan 6, 2021, at 2:00 PM, Jason Holtz < jholtzy@...> wrote:
I've done similar shelf installation down and dirty with lag screws into the studs. Once driven, the heads were cut off, and holes bore in the back of the shelves with an auger bit. Squirt some PL adhesive in the holes and slide it on. Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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there's no reason? you can't.?? just be sure the company that
builds the cutter block has the specifications needed.? You may
have to send them? your conventional one if no drawings exist.
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Anyone fitted a spiral cutter block onto a BF6 combi machine?
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Re: Hardwood glue-up panel on top on cabinet - wood movement
There is no expansion issue on the sides. Secure it at back and let it float in front. Very common tried and tested way.
Imran
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On Jan 6, 2021, at 6:07 PM, Bill James via groups.io <xxrb2010@...> wrote: ?Looking for advices,
I am building floating (not touching the floor) lower closet cabinets and plan to put a hardwood panel glue-up on top. The assembly will be located in a recessed area and bumped into drywall on tree sides. So, no space for expansion on the sides, space for extension in front only.
I am wondering if I need to use something like you can see on this web page to fix the glue-up panel to the top of the lower cabinet?
Or I can be good with large holes (like Domino type holes) in the cabinet top and screw with washer to allow for movement.
Thanks,
Bill
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imran
David P. Best