Re: WoodShop structure Slab vs pier and beam
My new shop is built on post/beam. I don¡¯t have a lot of machinery¡ªmostly the MM CU300. I reinforced the floor directly under it. I have an engineer friend who speced the floor and beam.
Downstairs I have a shop for working on farm equipment. It¡¯s not huge but I only have a smallish tractor, about 80 hp. So I¡¯m not putting a combine in there.
If I remember, I¡¯ll take some pictures.
Bird Cupps Mount Horeb, WI
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On Jan 7, 2021, at 7:41 PM, Bill James via < xxrb2010@...> wrote:
Looking to get some feedback on the type of floor structure for a woodshop, especially slab vs pier and beam (standard home floor).
I looked online and it appears a pier and beam can be made strong enough to support heavy machinery.
I am not looking for any engineering design or calculation, someone will do it for me if I need, just for pro and cons if any and if this is a good idea or something I should run from it.
Thanks,
Bill
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Re: WoodShop structure Slab vs pier and beam
7 or 8 yrs ago, I got to the age where I could tell the number of hrs spent in the shop by how my back felt. I got cheap interlocking floor mats from HF as a stop gap and envisioned putting in a wood floor.
About 3 yrs ago emerald ash borer killed all Ash trees on our property and ones near the house had to be removed for safety reason. So i ended up with enough KD ash to do the floor in the shop.
At this point the reality of the work required to do this job sat in. I have not had any issues with my back since I put the mats in. Last yr was the time to put in the floor as the whole shop got reorganized out and i decided that it was not worth the effort, for me.
On a new build, if possible, I definitely would not want to stand on concrete but just thought I share this for others who may not want to tackle the job of putting wood floor after the fact.
BTW, I was concerned with using the recently acquired ~250# Vestil hydraulic lift cart (plus weight of material) on the mats. They do tend to creep where they are free to move but has not been an issue. I probably have had only 100-150# in material weight so will see how it works with more weight. A better quality mat likely will work better but for what I paid, totally acceptable.
One issue of note is hot cutoffs from grinder, like the end of a screw. Those tiny hot suckers in some cases have burned completely thru the mat. It makes them easy to find though ? Similarly, any curly cues from drilling steel can bury themselves in these mats. They can be picked but no fun so be aware of it. Otherwise, if sticking to wood, it is easy to sweep and vacuum.
Imran
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On Jan 8, 2021, at 9:15 AM, tom@... wrote: ?As a follow up on flooring solutions, I'm currently working out of a ~750sf detached garage with a concrete slab in good condition, heated with a forced air furnace in one corner. I agree with Jason Holtz that working on concrete is not my favorite experience, and I've been contemplating installing a layer of AdvanTech over the slab. My intention would be to:
-- Install (thickness TBD) AdvanTech on floor:
? ? ?-- I would defer to Huber as to whether I'd need a vapor retarder between concrete slab and AdvanTech.
? ? ?-- I would entertain the idea of installing sleepers between the slab and AdvanTech. In this case, I'd be looking at something like 1/2" sleepers, just something to allow air movement and give the floor a little "spring". Sleepers to be 6" or 8" OC, running perpendicular to axis of strength of the AdvanTech
? ? ?-- My proposed fastening schedule would be to fasten each sheet with 1x GripCon in each corner to start with. The intention here is to allow a small amount of "spring" to the floor. To my way of thinking, this should not adversely affect equipment...?
-- Prepare appropriate temporary ramp so I can roll equipment up onto the new floor surface, which would now be ~1" taller than the rest of the driveway.?
The above is something I've been musing about for awhile, just haven't sorted out the details. Curious if I'm overlooking anything glaringly obvious.?
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
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Richard,
My sentiments are the same with my overhaul, factory parts if not the original restored, but the spares list is already over the ?700 mark and I need to be realistic about things like belts and bearings which can be sourced like for like from specialist
suppliers.
As to the high speed router spindle, its something I have always had mixed feelings about,?
its good for those large cutters that turn the router into something akin to a gyroscope, big moulding cutters and panel raisers.
Its also pretty handy when you are trying to do something a bit exotic on profile shapes.
I found the 15000 rpm to be an issue on smaller cutters and it always did sound like it was pushing the machine to its limit running something at that high an RPM.
The big win was always the saving on floor space in a small workshop over accommodating a free standing table.
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Thanks Again Paul. I was just hoping to restore it as near as new as possible with original parts but hey ho!
I'd like a high speed moulder spindle for router bits but I guess these are more than buying a complete dedicated table router!
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Re: WoodShop structure Slab vs pier and beam
I was planning similar, but then realized I would preventing heat from getting to the slab and potentially get movement in the winter, I should have done a frost wall?
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On Jan 8, 2021, at 9:15 AM, tom@... wrote:
?As a follow up on flooring solutions, I'm currently working out of a ~750sf detached garage with a concrete slab in good condition, heated with a forced air furnace in one corner. I agree with Jason Holtz that working on concrete is not my favorite experience, and I've been contemplating installing a layer of AdvanTech over the slab. My intention would be to:
-- Install (thickness TBD) AdvanTech on floor:
? ? ?-- I would defer to Huber as to whether I'd need a vapor retarder between concrete slab and AdvanTech.
? ? ?-- I would entertain the idea of installing sleepers between the slab and AdvanTech. In this case, I'd be looking at something like 1/2" sleepers, just something to allow air movement and give the floor a little "spring". Sleepers to be 6" or 8" OC, running perpendicular to axis of strength of the AdvanTech
? ? ?-- My proposed fastening schedule would be to fasten each sheet with 1x GripCon in each corner to start with. The intention here is to allow a small amount of "spring" to the floor. To my way of thinking, this should not adversely affect equipment...?
-- Prepare appropriate temporary ramp so I can roll equipment up onto the new floor surface, which would now be ~1" taller than the rest of the driveway.?
The above is something I've been musing about for awhile, just haven't sorted out the details. Curious if I'm overlooking anything glaringly obvious.?
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
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This might help you - at least conceptually - on your jointer table alignment challenge: ?
?
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
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Thanks Again Paul. I was just hoping to restore it as near as new as possible with original parts but hey ho!
I'd like a high speed moulder spindle for router bits but I guess these are more than buying a complete dedicated table router!
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Re: WoodShop structure Slab vs pier and beam
As the father of a former ballerina, I can clarify one thing: ?plywood laid directly on concrete does not provide a sprung floor. ?To get any kind of foot relief, you need to put the plywood on a stringer. ?Doesn¡¯t have to be more than 1/4¡± but the floor needs some bounce attain any kind of advantage with foot/leg joints. ?
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
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On Jan 8, 2021, at 6:15 AM, tom@... wrote:
As a follow up on flooring solutions, I'm currently working out of a ~750sf detached garage with a concrete slab in good condition, heated with a forced air furnace in one corner. I agree with Jason Holtz that working on concrete is not my favorite experience, and I've been contemplating installing a layer of AdvanTech over the slab. My intention would be to:
-- Install (thickness TBD) AdvanTech on floor:
? ? ?-- I would defer to Huber as to whether I'd need a vapor retarder between concrete slab and AdvanTech.
? ? ?-- I would entertain the idea of installing sleepers between the slab and AdvanTech. In this case, I'd be looking at something like 1/2" sleepers, just something to allow air movement and give the floor a little "spring". Sleepers to be 6" or 8" OC, running perpendicular to axis of strength of the AdvanTech
? ? ?-- My proposed fastening schedule would be to fasten each sheet with 1x GripCon in each corner to start with. The intention here is to allow a small amount of "spring" to the floor. To my way of thinking, this should not adversely affect equipment...?
-- Prepare appropriate temporary ramp so I can roll equipment up onto the new floor surface, which would now be ~1" taller than the rest of the driveway.?
The above is something I've been musing about for awhile, just haven't sorted out the details. Curious if I'm overlooking anything glaringly obvious.?
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
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Richard a pair of DTI's on magnetic bases would be the ideal tools for setting the outfeed table
?if you can lay your hands on them.
It will show you straight away if there is movement as you are tightening anything, especially with the hood removed.
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Thanks Paul,
I have the exploded drawings.
I'll have a good look today. It's chilly here in my garage!
I don't mind spending days on doing it, as long as I am doing it right! It should only need doing once.
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Thanks Again Paul. I was just hoping to restore it as near as new as possible with original parts but hey ho!
I'd like a high speed moulder spindle for router bits but I guess these are more than buying a complete dedicated table router!
|
Re: WoodShop structure Slab vs pier and beam
As a follow up on flooring solutions, I'm currently working out of a ~750sf detached garage with a concrete slab in good condition, heated with a forced air furnace in one corner. I agree with Jason Holtz that working on concrete is not my favorite experience, and I've been contemplating installing a layer of AdvanTech over the slab. My intention would be to:
-- Install (thickness TBD) AdvanTech on floor:
? ? ?-- I would defer to Huber as to whether I'd need a vapor retarder between concrete slab and AdvanTech.
? ? ?-- I would entertain the idea of installing sleepers between the slab and AdvanTech. In this case, I'd be looking at something like 1/2" sleepers, just something to allow air movement and give the floor a little "spring". Sleepers to be 6" or 8" OC, running perpendicular to axis of strength of the AdvanTech
? ? ?-- My proposed fastening schedule would be to fasten each sheet with 1x GripCon in each corner to start with. The intention here is to allow a small amount of "spring" to the floor. To my way of thinking, this should not adversely affect equipment...?
-- Prepare appropriate temporary ramp so I can roll equipment up onto the new floor surface, which would now be ~1" taller than the rest of the driveway.?
The above is something I've been musing about for awhile, just haven't sorted out the details. Curious if I'm overlooking anything glaringly obvious.?
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
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Thanks Paul,
I have the exploded drawings.
I'll have a good look today. It's chilly here in my garage!
I don't mind spending days on doing it, as long as I am doing it right! It should only need doing once.
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Re: WoodShop structure Slab vs pier and beam
My garage shop is monolithic slab on grade with no blueboard and I have experienced no movement that I can tell of. I am in VT and our frost line is a min 4¡¯, I have about 2¡¯ of 3¡±-6¡± rocks then i think 1¡¯ of 1-1/2¡± and then i think a thin bed of 3/4¡± to level things out. I was told that if i put blue board under the slab (which I wanted to do) that I might get movement due to the slab not getting indirect ?heat. If i wanted an insulated slab then needed to go with frost walls, at the time We were planning on parking cars 1/2 the time in the garage if i was to redo it i would do frost walls with an insulated slab at a min but would want a wood floor ultimately, oh well next shop...
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On Jan 8, 2021, at 7:53 AM, Mike Leiferman <leiferman@...> wrote:
? If you are in a freezing environment, a frost protected shallow foundation might be a good choice.? In it you trade perimeter frost walls for rigid insulation extending down the exterior face of a thickened slab, and out away from the building some distance to prevent the soil under the slab from freezing.? This assumes the building will be continuously heated.?
Mike Thanks for all your comment,
Yes, by heavy machinery I am talking about Fedler/Martin/SMCI and other woodworking stuff with the heaviest in my case might be around 3000 - 3500 lbs. So, apparently, a baby weight :).
Bill
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I would recommend contacting Hermance for a quote, it is a true Helical head and what I was going to use on my scm before I sold it and bought the AD941
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On Jan 8, 2021, at 4:58 AM, richard_markham@... via groups.io <richard_markham@...> wrote:
?Thanks! So the do exist, just need to see if they are worth the $$$$!
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Re: WoodShop structure Slab vs pier and beam
If you are in a freezing environment, a frost protected shallow foundation might be a good choice.? In it you trade perimeter frost walls for rigid insulation extending down the exterior face of a thickened slab, and out away from the building some distance to prevent the soil under the slab from freezing.? This assumes the building will be continuously heated.?
Mike
Thanks for all your comment,
Yes, by heavy machinery I am talking about Fedler/Martin/SMCI and other woodworking stuff with the heaviest in my case might be around 3000 - 3500 lbs. So, apparently, a baby weight :).
Bill
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Richard,
I am in the process of re commissioning my BF6-26 after along period of less than ideal storage, so I understand the pain you are suffering with prices.
I've had to shell out ?51 plus postage for a planner table locking lever that 20 years ago was ?8.50.
I was quoted ?280+ for the top bearing retaining ring for the spindle shaft so it was cheaper to get a custom pin spanner made to remove it rather than cut it off.?
Initially I though it had fused on but actually it took just over 300NM of leverage to get it to release the 1st half turn.
all that being said Felder's parts pricing is not much different to most machinery suppliers, it is based on whether the part is still in production and used on a current machine or how many they have left in stock in the warehouse.
At the end of the day all the 6 Series machines are 23-30 years old so in many respects we're lucky that there is any support at all.
It has been noticeable how many of the 6 series accessories are now being deleted or the prices "uplifted" as the stock runs low. which feels short sighted,
You can not build a machine that is basically bomb proof and then be puzzled why people still want parts for it 25 years down the line!!!
I would kill for an outrigger table and swing arm now I am going to have the space but that's gone NLA in the last year.
S coupling power feed mount is another example there are only a few left and they are much more expensive than the F coupling.
If it would help I can take my metal hood off and send you some pictures? over the weekend ?
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Yes, its a clear plastic thing, the part number I was quoted ?162 + VAT for is
FR-ABSAUGHAUBE LT. Z. 78-07-345 GLASKLAR
MATERIAL: PC 3000 KOMPLETT VERKLEBT UND MONT
Felder parts prices are just bonkers.
Another example is the crosscut splinter tongue and holder. ?45 plus VAT.
The scale tape the runs along the bed is ?60 + VAT.
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Richard ,
Do you have the parts drawing for your machine, that would make things much easier to explain.
Out of the factory the planner knives should be level with the saw spindle table at the top of the cutting circle, if you place a straight edge across the block and the table they should level through,
if this is not the case you have something else going on with the machine.
The outfeed table should also be set level in both axis to the saw spindle table, if it is then only the infeed table need adjusting..
The main alignment of the table is generated from the hinge side, the rise and fall casting base plate is mounted on two pairs of dowels that can be adjusted in and out with the Allen screws visible in the small square holes in the machine body just underneath
the casting.
You will also need to gently slacken the bolts that hold the base plate to the machine that are accessed through the rectangular plastic caps under the casting.
Overall its a long job as every time you adjust one bolt something else changes
Once the table is aligned in the lowered position on the hinge side then adjusting the locking side is relatively simple
I have only done this once on someone else's machine as a favour after they had had a mishap moving the machine and it was a long slow painful process
If you are confident dismantling things then the benefit of hindsight is that you remove the dust extraction hood so you can get to all the bolts with the table lowered but refitting the hood is going to be a fiddly process at best.
Good Luck
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Hi all again, so my infeed and outfeed tables on my BF6 are not coplanar. They appear to be tipping inwards towards the cutter block.
A long straight edge shows a clear 1mm gap at the cutter block end of the tables.
I'm not 100% sure yet if both tables are tipped inwards or just one as it's tricky to get a reference. I guess I can assume they should both be coplanar with the saw/shaper table.
How easy is it to adjust the tables? No mention in the manual of course! I've seen various videos of adjustment on other machines but none on Felders.
I am assuming that the hex bar that the tables lock down onto need adjusting so that all 4 contact points are in contact, after the table is set level and that the adjustment is made where the table bolts to the hinge or where th hinge dovetail slide bolts
to the chassis/frame?
Any help would be really appreciated! Cheers!
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Hi all again, so my infeed and outfeed tables on my BF6 are not coplanar. They appear to be tipping inwards towards the cutter block.
A long straight edge shows a clear 1mm gap at the cutter block end of the tables.
I'm not 100% sure yet if both tables are tipped inwards or just one as it's tricky to get a reference. I guess I can assume they should both be coplanar with the saw/shaper table.
How easy is it to adjust the tables? No mention in the manual of course! I've seen various videos of adjustment on other machines but none on Felders.
I am assuming that the hex bar that the tables lock down onto need adjusting so that all 4 contact points are in contact, after the table is set level and that the adjustment is made where the table bolts to the hinge or where th hinge dovetail slide bolts to the chassis/frame?
Any help would be really appreciated! Cheers!
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Thanks! So the do exist, just need to see if they are worth the $$$$!
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Re: WoodShop structure Slab vs pier and beam
I¡¯ll second this recommendation. ?I have the Huber Advan Tech floor in my basement shop on PT stringers to level the concrete floor. ?Stringers are on 16¡± centers with vapor barrier between the plywood and stringer. ?I no problem using the pallet jack to move the 2000 pound Dual 51 around. ?
David Best
https://www.instagram.com/davidpbest/
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On Jan 7, 2021, at 5:51 PM, tom@... wrote:
Hi Bill!?
In terms of pier and beam construction, I can't speak to whether it's suitable for heavy machinery, but I would recommend considering the Huber AdvanTech subfloor as a candidate for the subfloor. It's available in up to 1-1/8" thick 4x8 sheets, and you can always double up on layers (staggered seams, of course...). I spec'd 3/4" AdvanTech when I helped my friend build his addition two years ago, it seems to be performing quite well. I've even heard of it being used for basement slabs in lieu of concrete, where the architect would spec foam board insulation (2x layers of 1-1/2", if I remember correctly), then two layers of AdvanTech installed in perpendicular layers. Very dense and heavy, but I think it's worth consideration...?
?
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
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I also found this one.??
These are from Byrd and quite a bit more expensive than the other brand ($1285 vs $935.75 for my BF6-31) and has fewer cutters (5 rows of 12 vs vs 6 rows of 13), which I don;t know if that's good or bad.
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Re: WoodShop structure Slab vs pier and beam
Thanks for all your comment,
Yes, by heavy machinery I am talking about Fedler/Martin/SMCI and other woodworking stuff with the heaviest in my case might be around 3000 - 3500 lbs. So, apparently, a baby weight :).
Bill
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imran
David P. Best
Tom Gensmer