Re: Feedback on the sliding saw selection
Ditto. I¡¯m very curious to know how they¡¯re handling it.
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Re: Feedback on the sliding saw selection
Did you hear back from Felder about a solution to this issue?
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Re: Feedback on the sliding saw selection
Shipping is shipping. Many parties involved, even with dedicated trucks. Things happen en route. Not acceptable, but at least understandable.
Releasing a damaged product from the warehouse is another thing entirely. Felder USA should have full control over its staff and processes, and one would expect a tight ship on something as routine as crating. Between this and a significant variation in packaging materials I can't help but wonder whether Felder outsources crating to one or more 3PL companies. It's a common approach in consumer retail.
On Mon, May 19, 2025 at 10:43, Matthew Brandt via groups.io < mkbrandt@...> wrote:
Wow. I wish I had some pictures of my Hammer B3 when it was delivered this January. It came in a full crate with a nice heavy pallet that I¡¯m still using for a table. The crate was all OSB and 2x lumber and the pallet was inch thick boards on a 4x frame. No damage for sure. The slider ?(2m) was attached and everything was calibrated well enough that I didn¡¯t feel the need to adjust anything.?
It had to come to the island by boat so maybe that¡¯s a factor. I feel really lucky after reading this thread.?
Matt
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Re: Feedback on the sliding saw selection
Wow. I wish I had some pictures of my Hammer B3 when it was delivered this January. It came in a full crate with a nice heavy pallet that I¡¯m still using for a table. The crate was all OSB and 2x lumber and the pallet was inch thick boards on a 4x frame. No damage for sure. The slider ?(2m) was attached and everything was calibrated well enough that I didn¡¯t feel the need to adjust anything.?
It had to come to the island by boat so maybe that¡¯s a factor. I feel really lucky after reading this thread.?
Matt
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Re: #forsale K700 Professional and FB 610 (Seattle)
#forsale
FB 610 sold this weekend.
Update price on K700.
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Re: Feedback on the sliding saw selection
I am a fan of one way shipping. Martin will only ship this way on an air ride truck. I¡¯ve shipped machines this way also. More expensive yes, but you also need to factor in the cost savings of not having to build a full enclosed crate. Early on just had too many issues with common carriers even when things were packed well.
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Re: Feedback on the sliding saw selection
My profil45z came on its own dedicated semi truck with retractable covering thing around the flatbed (no idea the proper term for this). From what I understand, that truck picked it up straight from Delaware and took it to my house with nothing else in-between.
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My hammer a3-31 arrived via a lift gate truck from a local dock... no idea how many stops inbetween.
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Both the Format4 and the hammer were packaged/palletized the exact same way, with the exposed shrink wrap as the main protection.
--
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Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood
> Making youtube videos now!
??? -
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Re: Feedback on the sliding saw selection
Brett,
This is exactly what I stated earlier, among other things. Felder could be totally inept OR the loss from their current packaging has not risen to the level of concern.
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On May 19, 2025, at 10:17?AM, Brett Wissel via groups.io <Brettwissel@...> wrote: ? Seeing Declan's post reminded me of a similar experience receiving?Martin equipment. It was literally unwrap, level the base, and plug in. I immediately felt a positive?vibe after realizing how much time, cost, and hassle goes into setting up a machine, and how they cared about delivery of the machine - not a smudge anywhere. I wonder how different Felder USA could be if they applied commissioning in-shop, then enacted the same direct-conestoga-truck delivery system Martin USA does? It would?probably cost a little more to the clients but cost a lot less to Felder in travelling technician inefficiencies and damages, while strengthening their brand having clients know their machines are checked out, tuned in, ready to simply unload and work. Then again, this forum might lose half the traffic.... :)
I don't think it's fair to compare Martin to Felder, they are not in the same league, but rather to recognize value vs. total cost of ownership, which in a commercial setting adds up quick after the sale with downtime and opportunity costs.
Felder should?improve, but I recognize a bias in the forum just like in online reviews....I wonder if there's any available statistics on how many deliveries (like all of my Felder deliveries) have gone right, vs. those who have had problems?? Declan,
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Thank you for that!? That is the experience that I was described by the sales person.? When you are spending this much, is $1500 more that just straight shipping really an issue?
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If I ever have to move the shop, I will do the same thing, on a bit of a larger scale.? One truck, Only my stuff, no cross docks.
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PK
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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Re: Feedback on the sliding saw selection
Brett,
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I do agree with you about the bias.? Statistics do not lie!
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My AD-941 was delivered with no issues at all.
My Profil 45z x-motion was picked up in Sacramento (I trailered it home 500 mile or so) with no issues delivered to Sacramento.
My HS 950 was picked up in Sacramento (in my old Honda Element!) with no damage in the crate.
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I have had no accessories delivered with damage from Delaware (That I can remember) although there has been many that were shipped incorrectly to me.
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If you look at my experience, I think they are nailing it!? The difference in the way they are packaged, is significant.
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I agree that Martin is in another ballpark from Felder with cost and mass.? But I didn't see any difference in they way they shipped my Felder vs. the Format 4.? On another note, I appreciate getting whatever I buy damage free!? My Rivian R1T or my sons VW Jetta, they both cane without damage and delivered working perfectly.
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Also, as a side note.? Felder should NOT mimic Martin in the way they are shipped.? If Felder was shipping individually on a side curtain truck with no cross docks, then the current shipping method from Austria may be sufficient.? But they do not as of now.
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PK
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Re: Feedback on the sliding saw selection
Seeing Declan's post reminded me of a similar experience receiving?Martin equipment. It was literally unwrap, level the base, and plug in. I immediately felt a positive?vibe after realizing how much time, cost, and hassle goes into setting up a machine, and how they cared about delivery of the machine - not a smudge anywhere. I wonder how different Felder USA could be if they applied commissioning in-shop, then enacted the same direct-conestoga-truck delivery system Martin USA does? It would?probably cost a little more to the clients but cost a lot less to Felder in travelling technician inefficiencies and damages, while strengthening their brand having clients know their machines are checked out, tuned in, ready to simply unload and work. Then again, this forum might lose half the traffic.... :)
I don't think it's fair to compare Martin to Felder, they are not in the same league, but rather to recognize value vs. total cost of ownership, which in a commercial setting adds up quick after the sale with downtime and opportunity costs.
Felder should?improve, but I recognize a bias in the forum just like in online reviews....I wonder if there's any available statistics on how many deliveries (like all of my Felder deliveries) have gone right, vs. those who have had problems??
Declan,
?
Thank you for that!? That is the experience that I was described by the sales person.? When you are spending this much, is $1500 more that just straight shipping really an issue?
?
If I ever have to move the shop, I will do the same thing, on a bit of a larger scale.? One truck, Only my stuff, no cross docks.
?
PK
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
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Re: Feedback on the sliding saw selection
Declan,
?
Thank you for that!? That is the experience that I was described by the sales person.? When you are spending this much, is $1500 more that just straight shipping really an issue?
?
If I ever have to move the shop, I will do the same thing, on a bit of a larger scale.? One truck, Only my stuff, no cross docks.
?
PK
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Re: Feedback on the sliding saw selection
Here is a picture of my new saw leaving Martin¡¯s place in North Carolina. One machine on a small side curtain van. It cost about $3200 to send it to Denver back in January of 23. I bought a Martin planer and jointer from Ed Papa in New York last year and the shipping was about the same. It¡¯s definitely a lot, but I believe worth it when you¡¯re spending this much.
Just a note on packaging and protection.?
My Martin saw came fully wrapped in heavy gauge plastic with a heavy 4x4 wood frame. Everything was assembled, just put on the outrigger, fence, plug it in and go to work. It¡¯s also not covered in any of that greasy oily crap, because it basically shrink wrapped so well.
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Declan
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Re: Hammer C3 31 rotary converter
Hello Sam,
Catching up on msgs after being away. Did you get this fixed?
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On May 13, 2025, at 9:58?AM, samring via groups.io <samring@...> wrote: ? Hi,
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I have a Hammer c3 31 3ph, attempting to run from transwave mt5 rotary converter. Other 3ph machines run, but not the C3. A dc brake hum occurs when start us switched. Any suggestions or pointers gratefully received. Thanks,? Sam
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Re: Feedback on the sliding saw selection
Netanel,
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For my FS 7, I had to buy from a dealer here in So Cal - Wurth - and I still had the option of picking it up directly from the SCM Carson Warehouse.
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For people in the mid-west buying from Felder (or an SCM dealer) they are still shipping it half way across the country.? It should be crated for that and the multiple dock transfers that are possible.
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As far as cost, that seems relatively close.? My Kundig Uniq was about that much, although a bit further and on a common carrier (multiple dock transfers).? For Martin, they ship them by themselves on a dedicated truck I am told (though I could be wrong) and when I asked how much it would be to ship and commission a T70 last year, the comment was $5k off the cuff of the salesman.? I guess that is not crazy, but I also was told that Martin's come pretty much put together with the exception of the outrigger.
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If someone has the real experience of a New Martin delivery, please chime in!
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PK
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Re: Feedback on the sliding saw selection
Stan,
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The model SCM works is a bit different. They have dealers that act as a middle man (although you can still buy it directly from SCM)
But at the end of the day, the SCM machines arrive to the two big warehouse (east and west) and the dealer needs to handle the transportation from the warehouse to the end customer.
so issues with freight companies will still happen.
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when I asked SCM for delivery, they said they usually only ship directly on a flatbed/18 wheelers.
i think they quote me for $1400 for 300 miles delivery.
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Re: Feedback on the sliding saw selection
PK, you and I were on the same page, thinking about the Ford Pinto and bean counters making calculations about the least-cost approach. ?Such calculations rarely take reputational damage into consideration, often because it¡¯s can¡¯t be pinpointed exactly enough for an accountant to understand. ?For those who are unfamiliar with the Ford Pinto case, I recommend the following video: ?? ?
I also agree with your sentiment, that given enough exposure to the public, these issues separate and distinguish one brand from another. ?For that reason alone, I advocate airing these issues on a public forum like this. ?Felder puts an enormous amount of energy into their glitzy promotional ads and videos and social media presence, and enjoys the (IMO undeserved) reputation as ultra premium. ?If only they put as much energy into documentation, post-sales support, training, etc. . ?. ?. ?. ? It¡¯s a sales-driven company through and through with emphasis on growth. ?
In the 25 years I¡¯ve been here on FOG, I have (behind the scenes) helped countless users who have had to deal with the damage from poorly packaged machines. ?You¡¯d think that at some point, someone there would do a simple cost-benefit analysis of upgrading their packaging to OSB crates. ?Boggles the mind.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
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On May 18, 2025, at 3:56?PM, PK via groups.io <pk@...> wrote:
To add to what I said in the middle of the tirade I had...
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There is a monetary loss that the bean counters look at and make decisions on.? If we spend x on packaging it costs more than solving for the issues that arise.
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The Ford Pinto was a perfect example of this way of thinking.
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The loss to your reputation and brand image is much harder to quantify:
- Do you want pissed off clients?
- Do you want to put your local teams through hell with issues like this?
- When this is prevalent, your team becomes numb to it and subsequently treats the client like it is no big deal, because the employees see it all the time.? But the customers do not, each incident is a negative touchpoint with a brand.
- Do you want damaged products in peoples shops as a brand?? Do you want to "make a deal" for someone to keep it and have that impression there forever?
These issues separate brands.? Felder can do better.
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PK
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Re: Feedback on the sliding saw selection
To add to what I said in the middle of the tirade I had...
?
There is a monetary loss that the bean counters look at and make decisions on.? If we spend x on packaging it costs more than solving for the issues that arise.
?
The Ford Pinto was a perfect example of this way of thinking.
?
The loss to your reputation and brand image is much harder to quantify:
- Do you want pissed off clients?
- Do you want to put your local teams through hell with issues like this?
- When this is prevalent, your team becomes numb to it and subsequently treats the client like it is no big deal, because the employees see it all the time.? But the customers do not, each incident is a negative touchpoint with a brand.
- Do you want damaged products in peoples shops as a brand?? Do you want to "make a deal" for someone to keep it and have that impression there forever?
These issues separate brands.? Felder can do better.
?
PK
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Re: Feedback on the sliding saw selection
Stan,
What I have seen, it matters, if it is discussed here. This is read by FOG. People who came here later have shared the run around they received. Felder takes advantage of the naivety of the customer. This is my general impression after being here for ~20 yrs. I was also not on FOG when I bought my 2002 KF700. I was fully expecting the machine to come to my house and was blind sided to learn at the end that I need to pick it up from a truck terminal in Indianapolis. There was no admission of mistake or apology. It was not a huge deal for me to pick it up so I did not fight it.
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On May 18, 2025, at 6:21?PM, Stan K via groups.io <4279427@...> wrote: ? Doesn't SCM have multiple dealers in the US? I wonder if it has to do with Felder USA being the only game in town.
Anyways, it looks like the shipment has been extensively messed with after being packed in Tyrol. The yellow shrink wrap has been cut and retaped with packing tape before being wrapped in clear plastic. My sales rep mentioned that they "inspect" all the shipments coming in, so it might be a common practice. What's pertinent is that there's no way to chalk off this damage to shipping and picking it up by myself from the warehouse would make no difference. I fully intend to hold Felder USA accountable for the damage and would be grateful for any hints or personal accounts of dealing with them. Please reply privately.
On Sun, May 18, 2025 at 09:07, PK < pk@...> wrote:
I may have a slightly different opinion about this.
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My SCM was packed in a container that was all SCM products.? I know this because the overall packaging list was stapled to my crate in Italy with overall weight and machines listed individually.? It arrived damage free.
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My Kundig Uniq was shipped in a crate from Europe (Switzerland?) and sat in a warehouse for a few years before they shipped it incorrectly to Chicage and then to me in Southern California.? It arrived damage free.
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I can only assume that Felder is shipping in their own containers, because they have told me multiple times that my accessory orders will come in via DHL (extra $) or on the containers that come regularly.
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So there are many things at play here:
- What happened in the container, because of how they are packaged at the factory and loaded into the container.
- SCM crates the machines in Italy.
- Felder palletizes in Austria and wraps the outside in shrink wrap.? They then make a super structure at the local warehouse (shrink wrapped a second time) before it is shipped to us.
- What is happening locally at the warehouses?? For Felder, If they ship after hitting a port and being taken out of the container, Whose fault is that?
- A basic root cause analysis of what has been occurring for years could show where the issues are happening.? This could save hundreds of thousands of dollars over a decade and change the client experience and reputation for Felder.?
- What are the unloading processes in the USA at Felder?? Do they have an SOP that is validated and followed?? ?Do they have cameras in the warehouses?
- If the damage is all happening in the Final Mile part of the journey, then Felder's 2x4 superstructure addition at the local warehouses IS the issue. ?Do they understand the structural analysis of the crate they are building at the warehouses in the US?? Or are they just cutting and screwing some studs into place?
- Are they modifying the slider crates in the US after coming off the container?
IMHO this kind of stuff is going on in the WW machine world unnecessarily.? Many companies have this figured out and get local feedback to change packaging on larger products.? It is crazy to me that Felder is not doing it.? There is no cost reason really - because we all pay for shipping after it gets here, so we pay for any added weight that protects the machines, Not Felder.
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Sorry for the rant, but there are too many examples of amazing packing that eliminates any damage (Mac's Clamps).? There really is no excuse.? They can fix this permanently.
?
PK??
<publicKey - 4279427@... - 0xCAA04E5D.asc> <signature.asc>
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Re: Feedback on the sliding saw selection
Doesn't SCM have multiple dealers in the US? I wonder if it has to do with Felder USA being the only game in town.
Anyways, it looks like the shipment has been extensively messed with after being packed in Tyrol. The yellow shrink wrap has been cut and retaped with packing tape before being wrapped in clear plastic. My sales rep mentioned that they "inspect" all the shipments coming in, so it might be a common practice. What's pertinent is that there's no way to chalk off this damage to shipping and picking it up by myself from the warehouse would make no difference. I fully intend to hold Felder USA accountable for the damage and would be grateful for any hints or personal accounts of dealing with them. Please reply privately.
On Sun, May 18, 2025 at 09:07, PK < pk@...> wrote:
I may have a slightly different opinion about this.
?
My SCM was packed in a container that was all SCM products.? I know this because the overall packaging list was stapled to my crate in Italy with overall weight and machines listed individually.? It arrived damage free.
?
My Kundig Uniq was shipped in a crate from Europe (Switzerland?) and sat in a warehouse for a few years before they shipped it incorrectly to Chicage and then to me in Southern California.? It arrived damage free.
?
I can only assume that Felder is shipping in their own containers, because they have told me multiple times that my accessory orders will come in via DHL (extra $) or on the containers that come regularly.
?
So there are many things at play here:
- What happened in the container, because of how they are packaged at the factory and loaded into the container.
- SCM crates the machines in Italy.
- Felder palletizes in Austria and wraps the outside in shrink wrap.? They then make a super structure at the local warehouse (shrink wrapped a second time) before it is shipped to us.
- What is happening locally at the warehouses?? For Felder, If they ship after hitting a port and being taken out of the container, Whose fault is that?
- A basic root cause analysis of what has been occurring for years could show where the issues are happening.? This could save hundreds of thousands of dollars over a decade and change the client experience and reputation for Felder.?
- What are the unloading processes in the USA at Felder?? Do they have an SOP that is validated and followed?? ?Do they have cameras in the warehouses?
- If the damage is all happening in the Final Mile part of the journey, then Felder's 2x4 superstructure addition at the local warehouses IS the issue. ?Do they understand the structural analysis of the crate they are building at the warehouses in the US?? Or are they just cutting and screwing some studs into place?
- Are they modifying the slider crates in the US after coming off the container?
IMHO this kind of stuff is going on in the WW machine world unnecessarily.? Many companies have this figured out and get local feedback to change packaging on larger products.? It is crazy to me that Felder is not doing it.? There is no cost reason really - because we all pay for shipping after it gets here, so we pay for any added weight that protects the machines, Not Felder.
?
Sorry for the rant, but there are too many examples of amazing packing that eliminates any damage (Mac's Clamps).? There really is no excuse.? They can fix this permanently.
?
PK??
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Re: Feedback on the sliding saw selection
Maybe Felder did their analysis for the extra effort to properly crate the machine vs the actual damage they see in the fleet.
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I now realize why the Felder¡¯s rep strongly advised that I would came in person and do a local pickup of the machine.?
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Larry Long Neck
imran
PK
Declan Gallagher
David P. Best