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Re: Someone may be interested in this
Here is the same saw on Ebay and condition is ¡°for parts or not working¡±. Definitely a concern.
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On Aug 1, 2024, at 7:48?PM, Imran Malik <imranindiana@...> wrote:
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Thanks Niel. FWIW, a member of my FB group alerted me to this saw a week ago. His msg said, ¡°saw this at HGR in cleveland ohio, nice saw¡±. Not sure if he is a member here.
On Aug 1, 2024, at 7:28?PM, Niel via groups.io <nv@...> wrote:
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I have been a long time member but my posts have always bounced due to older email address on record (hopefully correct now). This is simply an advert I saw!?
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I know nothing about it other than I have bought stuff from HGR and feel I always got good deals (many people feel differently!). If I had more space to go separates I would have seriously thought about selling my Combo (after going to view this machine - I would check it out well especially with the X-roll protruding - Forklift operators!)
N/
Niel Viljoen
Re: Someone may be interested in this
Great find, my go chuck is Pratt and burnerd On my Dean Smith and Grace center Designing and building for 50 years
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On Aug 1, 2024, at 7:58?PM, Niel via groups.io <nv@...> wrote:
? I absolutely agree that you need to know what you are doing with HGR. But as I said I am fortunate to being only 100miles from the warehouse in Ohio. So I collect my own stuff (although that says nothing of how it got there in first place). Some of the machines were obviously packed by people who cared for them ?before HGR got them. I bought a Clausing Colchester lathe that was in great shape and best of all was someone (bless their soul) had packed a 6 jaw Griptru Pratt and Burnerd Chuck in the lathe which was never part of the advert or mentioned. That chuck was probably worth almost as much as I paid for the whole machine.?
N/ On 1 Aug 2024, at 20:00, mac campshure via groups.io <mac512002@...> wrote:
Neil, I bought from HGR for years. They are absolute bottom feeders if you¡¯re a machinist and you know how to rebuild machines then say you have some pretty good deals sometimes for somebody that¡¯s not capable of doing the stuff that I can do you¡¯re wasting your money.The other thing is their shipping department is shit so unless you send them specific diagrams and blueprints of how you want the stuff moved you¡¯re gonna get machine said come on a pellet and half not and most of the time it¡¯s their fault. my two cents on HGR Mac,, martin/campshure/co/llc
mac campshure
7412 elmwood ave.
middleton, wi 53562-3106
608-332-2330?cell Designing and building for 50 years On Aug 1, 2024, at 6:48?PM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? Thanks Niel. FWIW, a member of my FB group alerted me to this saw a week ago. His msg said, ¡°saw this at HGR in cleveland ohio, nice saw¡±. Not sure if he is a member here.
On Aug 1, 2024, at 7:28?PM, Niel via groups.io <nv@...> wrote:
?
I have been a long time member but my posts have always bounced due to older email address on record (hopefully correct now). This is simply an advert I saw!?
| |
I know nothing about it other than I have bought stuff from HGR and feel I always got good deals (many people feel differently!). If I had more space to go separates I would have seriously thought about selling my Combo (after going to view this machine - I would check it out well especially with the X-roll protruding - Forklift operators!)
N/
Niel Viljoen
Re: Someone may be interested in this
I absolutely agree that you need to know what you are doing with HGR. But as I said I am fortunate to being only 100miles from the warehouse in Ohio. So I collect my own stuff (although that says nothing of how it got there in first place). Some of the machines were obviously packed by people who cared for them ?before HGR got them. I bought a Clausing Colchester lathe that was in great shape and best of all was someone (bless their soul) had packed a 6 jaw Griptru Pratt and Burnerd Chuck in the lathe which was never part of the advert or mentioned. That chuck was probably worth almost as much as I paid for the whole machine.?
N/
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On 1 Aug 2024, at 20:00, mac campshure via groups.io <mac512002@...> wrote:
Neil, I bought from HGR for years. They are absolute bottom feeders if you¡¯re a machinist and you know how to rebuild machines then say you have some pretty good deals sometimes for somebody that¡¯s not capable of doing the stuff that I can do you¡¯re wasting your money.The other thing is their shipping department is shit so unless you send them specific diagrams and blueprints of how you want the stuff moved you¡¯re gonna get machine said come on a pellet and half not and most of the time it¡¯s their fault. my two cents on HGR Mac,, martin/campshure/co/llc
mac campshure
7412 elmwood ave.
middleton, wi 53562-3106
608-332-2330?cell Designing and building for 50 years On Aug 1, 2024, at 6:48?PM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? Thanks Niel. FWIW, a member of my FB group alerted me to this saw a week ago. His msg said, ¡°saw this at HGR in cleveland ohio, nice saw¡±. Not sure if he is a member here.
On Aug 1, 2024, at 7:28?PM, Niel via groups.io <nv@...> wrote:
?
I have been a long time member but my posts have always bounced due to older email address on record (hopefully correct now). This is simply an advert I saw!?
| |
I know nothing about it other than I have bought stuff from HGR and feel I always got good deals (many people feel differently!). If I had more space to go separates I would have seriously thought about selling my Combo (after going to view this machine - I would check it out well especially with the X-roll protruding - Forklift operators!)
N/
Niel Viljoen
Re: Someone may be interested in this
Neil, I bought from HGR for years. They are absolute bottom feeders if you¡¯re a machinist and you know how to rebuild machines then say you have some pretty good deals sometimes for somebody that¡¯s not capable of doing the stuff that I can do you¡¯re wasting your money. The other thing is their shipping department is shit so unless you send them specific diagrams and blueprints of how you want the stuff moved you¡¯re gonna get machine said come on a pellet and half not and most of the time it¡¯s their fault. my two cents on HGR Mac,, Designing and building for 50 years
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On Aug 1, 2024, at 6:48?PM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? Thanks Niel. FWIW, a member of my FB group alerted me to this saw a week ago. His msg said, ¡°saw this at HGR in cleveland ohio, nice saw¡±. Not sure if he is a member here.
On Aug 1, 2024, at 7:28?PM, Niel via groups.io <nv@...> wrote:
?
I have been a long time member but my posts have always bounced due to older email address on record (hopefully correct now). This is simply an advert I saw!?
| |
I know nothing about it other than I have bought stuff from HGR and feel I always got good deals (many people feel differently!). If I had more space to go separates I would have seriously thought about selling my Combo (after going to view this machine - I would check it out well especially with the X-roll protruding - Forklift operators!)
N/
Niel Viljoen
Re: Someone may be interested in this
Thanks Niel. FWIW, a member of my FB group alerted me to this saw a week ago. His msg said, ¡°saw this at HGR in cleveland ohio, nice saw¡±. Not sure if he is a member here.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 1, 2024, at 7:28?PM, Niel via groups.io <nv@...> wrote: ?
I have been a long time member but my posts have always bounced due to older email address on record (hopefully correct now). This is simply an advert I saw!?
| |
I know nothing about it other than I have bought stuff from HGR and feel I always got good deals (many people feel differently!). If I had more space to go separates I would have seriously thought about selling my Combo (after going to view this machine - I would check it out well especially with the X-roll protruding - Forklift operators!)
N/
Niel Viljoen
Someone may be interested in this
I have been a long time member but my posts have always bounced due to older email address on record (hopefully correct now). This is simply an advert I saw!?
| |
I know nothing about it other than I have bought stuff from HGR and feel I always got good deals (many people feel differently!). If I had more space to go separates I would have seriously thought about selling my Combo (after going to view this machine - I would check it out well especially with the X-roll protruding - Forklift operators!)
N/
Niel Viljoen
Re: Felder Rolling Carriage
? The terms ¡°rolling carriage¡± and ¡°fix it to the spindle¡± do not compute. ?What is the product you are asking about - ¡°rolling carriage¡± could be any of about 4 different things, none of which attach to the shaper spindle. ?Post a photo so we can identify what you are referring to. ? David Best - via mobile phone? David Best - via mobile phone?
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On Aug 1, 2024, at 1:45?PM, peter via groups.io <peter@...> wrote:
? Hello all,
I just managed to pick one up second hand one, Felder rolling carriage and it came without manual.?
can anyone be so kind and share few pics how to fix it to the machine F700Z spindle?
?
many thanks?
?
peter
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Re: Felder Rolling Carriage
Peter,
I brought this machine into my shop earlier this year. Attached are three photos of the rolling carriage:
1. The Felder drawing shows the exploded assembly. For my machine it was reversed; the wheels are on the left and the lifting bar is on the right as you face the machine.
2. The photo of the left shows the wheels visible in the shadows. I used a Johnson bar to jack the shaper up on blocks to make room for the installation.
3. The photo of the right side shows the lifting bar attachment. The threaded holes have a plug/cover which I pryed out with the help of a screw driver and needle nose pliers.
It took about an hour to finish it. Good luck.
Jim Gaynor On Thursday, August 1, 2024 at 04:45:16 PM EDT, <peter@...> wrote:
Hello all, I just managed to pick one up second hand one, Felder rolling carriage and it came without manual.?
can anyone be so kind and share few pics how to fix it to the machine F700Z spindle? ? many thanks? ? peter
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Re: Felder Rolling Carriage
Hello all,
I just managed to pick one up second hand one, Felder rolling carriage and it came without manual.?
can anyone be so kind and share few pics how to fix it to the machine F700Z spindle?
?
many thanks?
?
peter
|
Re: BF631 Electrical Woes
Hi Henry,
Well done. FWIW, I put a single page document as a guide for folks who want to run a multi motor machine on the VFD. It may not be very useful to you at this time but would appreciate your feedback. Be happy to update the document if needed.
Best Regards,
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On Aug 1, 2024, at 3:00?PM, hwettersten via groups.io <hwettersten@...> wrote: ? Following up here: I ended up deciding to build a new control and switch the machine to 3P. I bought three like-new 2.2kW 90L motors off eBay (~$1k total) and used terminal blocks and a contactor to replicate the start/stop function and handle the microswitches that confirm proper configuration of the machine (sliding door, dust hood, jointer tables).
?
Getting the pulleys off of the motor shafts was a PITA. It ended up taking 8 tons in a press. I shrunk the pulleys on the new motors, heating them to 300¡ãC before slipping them on the shafts and using spacer blocks to ensure they ended up in the right place along the shaft. I also had to machine the faceplates on the motors, as Felder apparently used the relatively unusual B14B flange size. Fortunately I was able to fit the needed geometry within the B5 faceplate on the motors I bought.
?
This setup worked great but had no braking, which got me through a period of time when I really needed the machine but isn't how I'd like it to be long term. Additionally, while I have 3P power available, it's handier for me to be able to run the thing on 1P input.
?
To deal with these two needs I bought a 4kW VFD and now use it to drive the machine. I still use the KN switch to switch the VFD's output, but VFDs don't like their output being switched while under load, so I use the contacts on the KN switch that open when the switch is pushed in to stop the motor in case I absent-mindedly try to operate the switch while a motor is running. I also have a braking resistor which stops the blade in under a second, and does so silently, which is huge improvement from the old Felder DC brake which growled like an angry dog when in use. I added some filtered ventilation to the electrical cabinet to ensure everything stays cool.
?
Before I decided to switch to 3P, Philip Davidson had sent me a surplus motor to replace mine that had burnt out, and did so for just the cost of shipping. I'll pass along his generosity to anybody who finds this thread in the future and needs a replacement 1P motor: if you need an ATB RBF90L/2-7PQ for a BF6,I have two of them and would be happy to send one or both on for the cost of shipping.
?
I also have my old main board, Siemens P/N C98451-D6094-P10-2-86, which I'm also happy to send on under the same terms. It's got at least two major electrical problems, one with the braking circuitry and one with the signal to the start contactor, but it's good for parts depending on what you need.
?
Shoot me an email if you're interested in either.
?
Henry
?
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Re: BF631 Electrical Woes
Following up here: I ended up deciding to build a new control and switch the machine to 3P. I bought three like-new 2.2kW 90L motors off eBay (~$1k total) and used terminal blocks and a contactor to replicate the start/stop function and handle the microswitches that confirm proper configuration of the machine (sliding door, dust hood, jointer tables).
?
Getting the pulleys off of the motor shafts was a PITA. It ended up taking 8 tons in a press. I shrunk the pulleys on the new motors, heating them to 300¡ãC before slipping them on the shafts and using spacer blocks to ensure they ended up in the right place along the shaft. I also had to machine the faceplates on the motors, as Felder apparently used the relatively unusual B14B flange size. Fortunately I was able to fit the needed geometry within the B5 faceplate on the motors I bought.
?
This setup worked great but had no braking, which got me through a period of time when I really needed the machine but isn't how I'd like it to be long term. Additionally, while I have 3P power available, it's handier for me to be able to run the thing on 1P input.
?
To deal with these two needs I bought a 4kW VFD and now use it to drive the machine. I still use the KN switch to switch the VFD's output, but VFDs don't like their output being switched while under load, so I use the contacts on the KN switch that open when the switch is pushed in to stop the motor in case I absent-mindedly try to operate the switch while a motor is running. I also have a braking resistor which stops the blade in under a second, and does so silently, which is huge improvement from the old Felder DC brake which growled like an angry dog when in use. I added some filtered ventilation to the electrical cabinet to ensure everything stays cool.
?
Before I decided to switch to 3P, Philip Davidson had sent me a surplus motor to replace mine that had burnt out, and did so for just the cost of shipping. I'll pass along his generosity to anybody who finds this thread in the future and needs a replacement 1P motor: if you need an ATB RBF90L/2-7PQ for a BF6,I have two of them and would be happy to send one or both on for the cost of shipping.
?
I also have my old main board, Siemens P/N C98451-D6094-P10-2-86, which I'm also happy to send on under the same terms. It's got at least two major electrical problems, one with the braking circuitry and one with the signal to the start contactor, but it's good for parts depending on what you need.
?
Shoot me an email if you're interested in either.
?
Henry
?
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Those beam saws aren¡¯t nearly as scary as one would think-I have the similar sized 400mm Makita and it¡¯s a joy to use. Have fun with it!
Stacked dado blades on a shaper arbor is way scarier to me (I never thought I¡¯d say that, the beam saw was shocking).?
Jim ?
On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 7:01?AM Michael Branning via <mtbranning= [email protected]> wrote: In that same puckering vein, I just bought a 16 5/16¡± Skil saw on Prime day for some future beam projects. This plus a chisel would make quick work of some slots but you¡¯d need to do some significant set up to hold the pieces and come up with some jigs for guidance.
On Jul 31, 2024, at 9:19?PM, David P. Best via <dbestworkshop=[email protected]> wrote:
?Yea, and mondo pucker factor too. ? ?
On Jul 31, 2024, at 6:12?PM, David Luckensmeyer via <dhluckens= [email protected]> wrote:
Hi David B. ? I love your stack of Forrest Dado blades. That must have made quite some noise on start-up!
? ?
?
Imran,
I dealt with this many years ago.? I ended up using a 300mm Forrest Dado King on the spindle shaper on my KF700.? This gave me a slot/mortise/tenon DOC of 5¡±. ? Since your KF700 is configured as a shaper now,
why don¡¯t you just mount a large saw blade on the arbor, build yourself some kind of simple hood for safety, and cut the slots in that manner.? Successive cuts while raising the blade between cuts should do it.? You can angle your crosscut fence as required
to get the bottom of the slot angled perfectly. ?
<Dado King on KF700 Shaper.jpeg>
<Dado King on KF700 Shaper2.jpeg>
I also have some slot clutters you are willing to borrow if you pay the postage.? I have a pair of 4mm slot cutters that are 230mm diameter which would give about a 75mm DOC.
I also have a groover that is 250mm diameter - two piece that can be sized for 8-15mm thickness.? This would also provide about 70mm DOC to the hub area.
Both of those would required a tenoning hood for safety that can be shop built.? Let me know if this would help.
On Jul 31, 2024, at 5:52?PM, imranindiana via <imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
?
David,
Thanks for the detailed response. You have reinforced what I have experienced in my trials. I started the project attempting the 4¡± angled bridle slot and tenon and found while cuts were crisp there was slight
variation in joints.
If I can get a slotting blade in 350mm dia, I would like to still give it a try on the saw. None have come up in my searches. S&S top out around 200mm. FS Tool has a 250 mm dia/10mm kerf for $463 but unlike
Felder (300mm-6 teeth) it has 24 teeth. Do you know of any on your end??
?
On Jul 31, 2024, at 7:34?PM, David Luckensmeyer via <dhluckens=[email protected]> wrote:
?
You raise a method of work question worthy of consideration. The limits of slot cutters, and machinery are why we do not see large bridle style joints in mainstream furniture and magazines. They have to be
done by hand or else a fair bit of money is needed. Both limit commerciality.?
The issue you raise is similar to my half lap joint problem, except that the inside faces of half lap joints are hidden. Bridle joints are entirely exposed and so any clean up work is there for all to see.
Consequently your scenario is even harder than mine.?
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You could use a large blade on saw or shaper and cut the inside faces, similar to what I¡¯ve just done on the saw. But you have to clean out the bottoms by hand. Plus doing single cuts takes a lot of care to get right fitting joinery.?
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I ?would test the quality of your bandsaw cuts in the timber you¡¯re planning on using. I¡¯ve been surprised at times to discover that the bandsaw can cut well enough (smooth enough) for glue-quality joinery but not in very many
species. Most splinter just enough to make exposed joinery like bridle joints problematic. And you are still doing the hand work.?
-
That leaves oversize slot cutters on the shaper with a homemade hood. I¡¯m planning on making chairs with bridle joints and will purchase one or more identical fixed width cutters from Whitehill. I agree that the adjustable versions
are expensive. Getting said cutters, say 300/350mm x 10/12mm will do a beautiful job on the shaper. But even those cutters (non adjustable) add up.?
I think you¡¯re asking the right questions. The solution you choose will come down to how much handwork you want to do, how well your selected timber machines, and how much money you want to spend. Keep us
posted please!
Just use one blade and raise/lower it accordingly. Don't need to spend the money on a dado set for one project.
On Wednesday, July 31, 2024 at 03:50:01 PM MST, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Thanks Brian. That is an option and if I go that route, I would like to build a tenoning hood to make it safe. Since Forrest 12¡± dado king is ~$700, I thought I ask what others are
doing.
?
?
Largest I've done on the saw was a back bevel on a table top using a 12" blade on the shaper spindle giving me right at about 4" of depth. It's scary as hell given
you can't run it in any sort of guard. If you have a 350mm blade and want to try... you can get it done. I think the safer, if more work route, is the bandsaw and clean up the slot on the bottom.
On Wednesday, July 31, 2024 at 03:21:53 PM MST, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Thanks Brian. Bandsaw is definitely an option. I am trying to find out if anyone is doing this on shaper or saw. If so, how?
?
Bandsaw... you can slot as deep as you would like. Cut both sides and the flatten out the bottom of the slot.
On Wednesday, July 31, 2024 at 03:02:54 PM MST, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Hi Brett,
I assume you have more the 4¡± capability on the saw. Do you slot that high on the saw?
I am trying to figure out if I am giving up on this option too quickly, after a few tries. I believe the blade is sharp but I could try it again with a sharpened blade.
I wish I could find a 350 mm slotting blade.
?
?
Bandsaw and chisel or sanding block to achieve finished edges where circular blades can't reach.
?
On Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 12:46?PM imranindiana via
<imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
??Hi Mikelis,
Can¡¯t take credit for the design, following caught my eye:
I should have added that while I can get ~4¡± cut (never tested it) on KF700 with 300-315 mm blade, I only get 3.3¡± on K975. KF700 is now configured as a shaper so this is putting
me at a disadvantage. Therefore, Felder slotting blade does not get me to 4¡± depth of cut.
?
On Jul 31, 2024, at 1:23?PM, Mi?elis Vindavs via <mikelis.vindavs=[email protected]> wrote:
?
That looks like a cool design for the stepstool.
Not sure if this helps any, but Felder makes a slotting/grooving blade in two sizes - 230x4 and 300x5 (03.0.030). It would still require multiple passes but perhaps fewer than the
rip blade, depending on how wide yours is.?
?
On Wed, 31 Jul 2024 at 19:49, imranindiana via
<imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
I came across a step stool design that requires ~4¡± deep slots. I know there are other ways to achieve the look of an angled bridle joint but these methods require more work. Here
is what I would like to build. 3 pieces that make each side of the frame are 4¡± wide.
Here is a prototype with just under 3¡± of slotting capability. Wood is just pine construction lumber.
I know I could have done a few things to improve the proportions but this exercise has brought up the question about slotting capabilities.
I tried the 4¡± deep angle slot on the table saw (350 mm, IIRC 28 tooth rip blade) but it was a slow process. I imagine it would be even slower in hard wood. This is where I decided
to switch to shaper which reduced my slotting capability to just under 3¡±. For the slot (for stretcher) in the upper part of the legs I rough cut on bandsaw and then cleaned up on shaper.
All this to ask the question, what slotting capabilities do you guys have? At what point do you start thinking of alternative methods? I do not want to add a machine but I could increase
my capability with a tenoning hood. If I go this route, I would like to build one that accommodates a 12¡± dado. BTW, Whitehill makes a 300 mm adj groover but it is over $1K.
?
--
Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
(at
314.772.2167
brett@...
?
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Honestly I would cut the leading lines with the table saw and the rest with a coping saw and clean up with chisels. Im also doing some tenons now what are 9cm deep, did one cut with the table saw and my fritz and franz jig and decided it feels too risky having a long beam vertically and the size of the cut. May gonna take a little longer but 0 risks of injuries.? Rich?
On Wed, 31 Jul 2024 at 18:49, imranindiana via <imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote: I came across a step stool design that requires ~4¡± deep slots. I know there are other ways to achieve the look of an angled bridle joint but these methods require more work. Here is what I would like to build. 3 pieces that make each side of the frame are 4¡± wide.
Here is a prototype with just under 3¡± of slotting capability. Wood is just pine construction lumber.
I know I could have done a few things to improve the proportions but this exercise has brought up the question about slotting capabilities.
I tried the 4¡± deep angle slot on the table saw (350 mm, IIRC 28 tooth rip blade) but it was a slow process. I imagine it would be even slower in hard wood. This is where I decided to switch to shaper which reduced my slotting capability to just under 3¡±. For the slot (for stretcher) in the upper part of the legs I rough cut on bandsaw and then cleaned up on shaper.
All this to ask the question, what slotting capabilities do you guys have? At what point do you start thinking of alternative methods? I do not want to add a machine but I could increase my capability with a tenoning hood. If I go this route, I would like to build one that accommodates a 12¡± dado. BTW, Whitehill makes a 300 mm adj groover but it is over $1K.
Thoughts?
|
In addition, if you do end up buying two, they can be used for and square shoulder tenoning down the line as well.
|
In that same puckering vein, I just bought a 16 5/16¡± Skil saw on Prime day for some future beam projects. This plus a chisel would make quick work of some slots but you¡¯d need to do some significant set up to hold the pieces and come up with some jigs for guidance.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jul 31, 2024, at 9:19?PM, David P. Best via groups.io <dbestworkshop@...> wrote:
? Yea, and mondo pucker factor too. ? ?
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
On Jul 31, 2024, at 6:12?PM, David Luckensmeyer via groups.io <dhluckens@...> wrote:
Hi David B. ? I love your stack of Forrest Dado blades. That must have made quite some noise on start-up!
? ?
?
Imran,
I dealt with this many years ago. ?I ended up using a 300mm Forrest Dado King on the spindle shaper on my KF700. ?This gave me a slot/mortise/tenon DOC of 5¡±. ? Since your KF700 is configured as a shaper now,
why don¡¯t you just mount a large saw blade on the arbor, build yourself some kind of simple hood for safety, and cut the slots in that manner. ?Successive cuts while raising the blade between cuts should do it. ?You can angle your crosscut fence as required
to get the bottom of the slot angled perfectly. ?
<Dado King on KF700 Shaper.jpeg>
<Dado King on KF700 Shaper2.jpeg>
I also have some slot clutters you are willing to borrow if you pay the postage. ?I have a pair of 4mm slot cutters that are 230mm diameter which would give about a 75mm DOC.
I also have a groover that is 250mm diameter - two piece that can be sized for 8-15mm thickness. ?This would also provide about 70mm DOC to the hub area.
Both of those would required a tenoning hood for safety that can be shop built. ?Let me know if this would help.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
On Jul 31, 2024, at 5:52?PM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
?
David,
Thanks for the detailed response. You have reinforced what I have experienced in my trials. I started the project attempting the 4¡± angled bridle slot and tenon and found while cuts were crisp there was slight
variation in joints.
If I can get a slotting blade in 350mm dia, I would like to still give it a try on the saw. None have come up in my searches. S&S top out around 200mm. FS Tool has a 250 mm dia/10mm kerf for $463 but unlike
Felder (300mm-6 teeth) it has 24 teeth. Do you know of any on your end??
?
On Jul 31, 2024, at 7:34?PM, David Luckensmeyer via groups.io <dhluckens@...> wrote:
?
You raise a method of work question worthy of consideration. The limits of slot cutters, and machinery are why we do not see large bridle style joints in mainstream furniture and magazines. They have to be
done by hand or else a fair bit of money is needed. Both limit commerciality.?
The issue you raise is similar to my half lap joint problem, except that the inside faces of half lap joints are hidden. Bridle joints are entirely exposed and so any clean up work is there for all to see.
Consequently your scenario is even harder than mine.?
-
You could use a large blade on saw or shaper and cut the inside faces, similar to what I¡¯ve just done on the saw. But you have to clean out the bottoms by hand. Plus doing single cuts takes a lot of care to get right fitting joinery.?
-
I ?would test the quality of your bandsaw cuts in the timber you¡¯re planning on using. I¡¯ve been surprised at times to discover that the bandsaw can cut well enough (smooth enough) for glue-quality joinery but not in very many
species. Most splinter just enough to make exposed joinery like bridle joints problematic. And you are still doing the hand work.?
-
That leaves oversize slot cutters on the shaper with a homemade hood. I¡¯m planning on making chairs with bridle joints and will purchase one or more identical fixed width cutters from Whitehill. I agree that the adjustable versions
are expensive. Getting said cutters, say 300/350mm x 10/12mm will do a beautiful job on the shaper. But even those cutters (non adjustable) add up.?
I think you¡¯re asking the right questions. The solution you choose will come down to how much handwork you want to do, how well your selected timber machines, and how much money you want to spend. Keep us
posted please!
Just use one blade and raise/lower it accordingly. Don't need to spend the money on a dado set for one project.
On Wednesday, July 31, 2024 at 03:50:01 PM MST, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Thanks Brian. That is an option and if I go that route, I would like to build a tenoning hood to make it safe. Since Forrest 12¡± dado king is ~$700, I thought I ask what others are
doing.
?
On Jul 31, 2024, at 6:43?PM, Brian Lamb via groups.io <blamb11@...> wrote:
?
Largest I've done on the saw was a back bevel on a table top using a 12" blade on the shaper spindle giving me right at about 4" of depth. It's scary as hell given
you can't run it in any sort of guard. If you have a 350mm blade and want to try... you can get it done. I think the safer, if more work route, is the bandsaw and clean up the slot on the bottom.
On Wednesday, July 31, 2024 at 03:21:53 PM MST, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Thanks Brian. Bandsaw is definitely an option. I am trying to find out if anyone is doing this on shaper or saw. If so, how?
On Jul 31, 2024, at 6:07?PM, Brian Lamb via groups.io <blamb11@...> wrote:
?
Bandsaw... you can slot as deep as you would like. Cut both sides and the flatten out the bottom of the slot.
On Wednesday, July 31, 2024 at 03:02:54 PM MST, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Hi Brett,
I assume you have more the 4¡± capability on the saw. Do you slot that high on the saw?
I am trying to figure out if I am giving up on this option too quickly, after a few tries. I believe the blade is sharp but I could try it again with a sharpened blade.
I wish I could find a 350 mm slotting blade.
?
On Jul 31, 2024, at 5:29?PM, Brett Wissel via groups.io <Brettwissel@...> wrote:
?
Bandsaw and chisel or sanding block to achieve finished edges where circular blades can't reach.
?
On Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 12:46?PM imranindiana via
<imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
??Hi Mikelis,
Can¡¯t take credit for the design, following caught my eye:
I should have added that while I can get ~4¡± cut (never tested it) on KF700 with 300-315 mm blade, I only get 3.3¡± on K975. KF700 is now configured as a shaper so this is putting
me at a disadvantage. Therefore, Felder slotting blade does not get me to 4¡± depth of cut.
?
On Jul 31, 2024, at 1:23?PM, Mi?elis Vindavs via <mikelis.vindavs=[email protected]> wrote:
?
That looks like a cool design for the stepstool.
Not sure if this helps any, but Felder makes a slotting/grooving blade in two sizes - 230x4 and 300x5 (03.0.030). It would still require multiple passes but perhaps fewer than the
rip blade, depending on how wide yours is.?
?
On Wed, 31 Jul 2024 at 19:49, imranindiana via
<imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
I came across a step stool design that requires ~4¡± deep slots. I know there are other ways to achieve the look of an angled bridle joint but these methods require more work. Here
is what I would like to build. 3 pieces that make each side of the frame are 4¡± wide.
Here is a prototype with just under 3¡± of slotting capability. Wood is just pine construction lumber.
I know I could have done a few things to improve the proportions but this exercise has brought up the question about slotting capabilities.
I tried the 4¡± deep angle slot on the table saw (350 mm, IIRC 28 tooth rip blade) but it was a slow process. I imagine it would be even slower in hard wood. This is where I decided
to switch to shaper which reduced my slotting capability to just under 3¡±. For the slot (for stretcher) in the upper part of the legs I rough cut on bandsaw and then cleaned up on shaper.
All this to ask the question, what slotting capabilities do you guys have? At what point do you start thinking of alternative methods? I do not want to add a machine but I could increase
my capability with a tenoning hood. If I go this route, I would like to build one that accommodates a 12¡± dado. BTW, Whitehill makes a 300 mm adj groover but it is over $1K.
?
--
Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd)
St Louis, MO 63110
314.772.2167
brett@...
?
|
Hi David,
Thanks for the generous offer of lending me the tooling but I would be worried sick if I did something wrong with them.
Do you have the hood for Profil as it accommodates 350 mm tooling? One for 700 series shows 270 mm capacity.
I will use the stool over the next few months to ensure it holds. The rebuild of this to proper proportions is likely going to be during winter. I need to finish trim on the storage room I built behind my shop and then paint the exterior of the whole shop and storage building. This will take me into fall.
Meanwhile I will work on the hood design.
Thanks again.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jul 31, 2024, at 9:10?PM, David P. Best via groups.io <dbestworkshop@...> wrote: ? Imran,
I dealt with this many years ago. ?I ended up using a 300mm Forrest Dado King on the spindle shaper on my KF700. ?This gave me a slot/mortise/tenon DOC of 5¡±. ? Since your KF700 is configured as a shaper now, why don¡¯t you just mount a large saw blade on the arbor, build yourself some kind of simple hood for safety, and cut the slots in that manner. ?Successive cuts while raising the blade between cuts should do it. ?You can angle your crosscut fence as required to get the bottom of the slot angled perfectly. ?
<Dado King on KF700 Shaper.jpeg>
<Dado King on KF700 Shaper2.jpeg>
I also have some slot clutters you are willing to borrow if you pay the postage. ?I have a pair of 4mm slot cutters that are 230mm diameter which would give about a 75mm DOC.
I also have a groover that is 250mm diameter - two piece that can be sized for 8-15mm thickness. ?This would also provide about 70mm DOC to the hub area.
Both of those would required a tenoning hood for safety that can be shop built. ?Let me know if this would help.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
On Jul 31, 2024, at 5:52?PM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
David,
Thanks for the detailed response. You have reinforced what I have experienced in my trials. I started the project attempting the 4¡± angled bridle slot and tenon and found while cuts were crisp there was slight variation in joints.
If I can get a slotting blade in 350mm dia, I would like to still give it a try on the saw. None have come up in my searches. S&S top out around 200mm. FS Tool has a 250 mm dia/10mm kerf for $463 but unlike Felder (300mm-6 teeth) it has 24 teeth. Do you know of any on your end??
On Jul 31, 2024, at 7:34?PM, David Luckensmeyer via groups.io <dhluckens@...> wrote:
?
Imran,?
You raise a method of work question worthy of consideration. The limits of slot cutters, and machinery are why we do not see large bridle style joints in mainstream furniture and magazines. They have to be done by hand or else a fair bit of money
is needed. Both limit commerciality.?
The issue you raise is similar to my half lap joint problem, except that the inside faces of half lap joints are hidden. Bridle joints are entirely exposed and so any clean up work is there for all to see. Consequently your scenario is even harder
than mine.?
- You could use a large blade on saw or shaper and cut the inside faces, similar to what I¡¯ve just done on the saw. But you have to clean out the bottoms by hand. Plus doing single cuts takes a lot of care to get right
fitting joinery.?
- I ?would test the quality of your bandsaw cuts in the timber you¡¯re planning on using. I¡¯ve been surprised at times to discover that the bandsaw can cut well enough (smooth enough) for glue-quality joinery but not in
very many species. Most splinter just enough to make exposed joinery like bridle joints problematic. And you are still doing the hand work.?
- That leaves oversize slot cutters on the shaper with a homemade hood. I¡¯m planning on making chairs with bridle joints and will purchase one or more identical fixed width cutters from Whitehill. I agree that the adjustable
versions are expensive. Getting said cutters, say 300/350mm x 10/12mm will do a beautiful job on the shaper. But even those cutters (non adjustable) add up.?
I think you¡¯re asking the right questions. The solution you choose will come down to how much handwork you want to do, how well your selected timber machines, and how much money you want to spend. Keep us posted please!
Just use one blade and raise/lower it accordingly. Don't need to spend the money on a dado set for one project.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
lambtoolworks.com
On Wednesday, July 31, 2024 at 03:50:01 PM MST, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Thanks Brian. That is an option and if I go that route, I would like to build a tenoning hood to make it safe. Since Forrest 12¡± dado king is ~$700, I thought I ask what others are doing.
On Jul 31, 2024, at 6:43?PM, Brian Lamb via groups.io <blamb11@...> wrote:
?
Largest I've done on the saw was a back bevel on a table top using a 12" blade on the shaper spindle giving me right at about 4" of depth. It's scary as hell given you can't run it in any sort of guard. If you have a 350mm blade and want to try...
you can get it done. I think the safer, if more work route, is the bandsaw and clean up the slot on the bottom.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
lambtoolworks.com
On Wednesday, July 31, 2024 at 03:21:53 PM MST, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Thanks Brian. Bandsaw is definitely an option. I am trying to find out if anyone is doing this on shaper or saw. If so, how?
On Jul 31, 2024, at 6:07?PM, Brian Lamb via groups.io <blamb11@...> wrote:
?
Bandsaw... you can slot as deep as you would like. Cut both sides and the flatten out the bottom of the slot.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
lambtoolworks.com
On Wednesday, July 31, 2024 at 03:02:54 PM MST, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Hi Brett,
I assume you have more the 4¡± capability on the saw. Do you slot that high on the saw?
I am trying to figure out if I am giving up on this option too quickly, after a few tries. I believe the blade is sharp but I could try it again with a sharpened blade.
I wish I could find a 350 mm slotting blade.
On Jul 31, 2024, at 5:29?PM, Brett Wissel via groups.io <Brettwissel@...> wrote:
?
Bandsaw and chisel or sanding block to achieve finished edges where circular blades can't reach.
On Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 12:46?PM imranindiana via
<imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote:
??Hi Mikelis,
Can¡¯t take credit for the design, following caught my eye:
I should have added that while I can get ~4¡± cut (never tested it) on KF700 with 300-315 mm blade, I only get 3.3¡± on K975. KF700 is now configured as a shaper so this is putting me at a disadvantage. Therefore, Felder slotting blade does not get me to
4¡± depth of cut.
On Jul 31, 2024, at 1:23?PM, Mi?elis Vindavs via <mikelis.vindavs= [email protected]> wrote:
?
That looks like a cool design for the stepstool.
Not sure if this helps any, but Felder makes a slotting/grooving blade in two sizes - 230x4 and 300x5 (03.0.030). It would still require multiple passes but perhaps fewer than the rip blade, depending on how wide yours is.?
On Wed, 31 Jul 2024 at 19:49, imranindiana via
<imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote:
I came across a step stool design that requires ~4¡± deep slots. I know there are other ways to achieve the look of an angled bridle joint but these methods require more work. Here is what I would like to build. 3 pieces that make each side of the frame
are 4¡± wide.
Here is a prototype with just under 3¡± of slotting capability. Wood is just pine construction lumber.
I know I could have done a few things to improve the proportions but this exercise has brought up the question about slotting capabilities.
I tried the 4¡± deep angle slot on the table saw (350 mm, IIRC 28 tooth rip blade) but it was a slow process. I imagine it would be even slower in hard wood. This is where I decided to switch to shaper which reduced my slotting capability to just under
3¡±. For the slot (for stretcher) in the upper part of the legs I rough cut on bandsaw and then cleaned up on shaper.
All this to ask the question, what slotting capabilities do you guys have? At what point do you start thinking of alternative methods? I do not want to add a machine but I could increase my capability with a tenoning hood. If I go this route, I would like
to build one that accommodates a 12¡± dado. BTW, Whitehill makes a 300 mm adj groover but it is over $1K.
Thoughts?
--
Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd)
St Louis, MO 63110
314.772.2167
brett@...
|
Thanks Brent and David, somehow, my search on Scott and Sargent did not show fixed groovers from Whitehill but I do see them now.
The reason I was after 350 mm was to try on the saw. As mentioned in my original post K975 is lousy in depth of cut.
Yes, 300 mm is fine on the shaper. I have some choices now. I like these joints so it is not just one project, therefore would be nice to have the capability of doing these efficiently.
Thanks a bunch.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jul 31, 2024, at 9:07?PM, David Luckensmeyer via groups.io <dhluckens@...> wrote: ?
Hi Imran:
?
No worries.
No, I don¡¯t know of any available slot cutters or ¡°thick blades¡± at that sort of diameter. However, have you considered that solid groovers (as opposed to adjustable groovers) have a larger capacity? You only need 300mm.
?
For example, this groover is 300mm x 10mm x 30mm bore, and has a cutting depth of 114mm, which is enough for your purposes. At 350 pounds it is expensive, but that is exactly the kind of cutter that is needed
for large bridle joints. Sadly, two would be better with the correct spacer between and then you¡¯d be golden ¨C bridle joints in 4¡± material with no handwork.
?
At least you have USD to work with. The AUD is low at the moment so this cutter would cost me $688, and then postage to little old Australia!
?
?
Dr David Luckensmeyer
?
David,
Thanks for the detailed response. You have reinforced what I have experienced in my trials. I started the project attempting the 4¡± angled bridle slot and tenon and found while cuts were crisp there was slight
variation in joints.
If I can get a slotting blade in 350mm dia, I would like to still give it a try on the saw. None have come up in my searches. S&S top out around 200mm. FS Tool has a 250 mm dia/10mm kerf for $463 but unlike
Felder (300mm-6 teeth) it has 24 teeth. Do you know of any on your end??
?
On Jul 31, 2024, at 7:34?PM, David Luckensmeyer via groups.io <dhluckens@...> wrote:
?
You raise a method of work question worthy of consideration. The limits of slot cutters, and machinery are why we do not see large bridle style joints in mainstream furniture and magazines. They have to be
done by hand or else a fair bit of money is needed. Both limit commerciality.?
The issue you raise is similar to my half lap joint problem, except that the inside faces of half lap joints are hidden. Bridle joints are entirely exposed and so any clean up work is there for all to see.
Consequently your scenario is even harder than mine.?
-
You could use a large blade on saw or shaper and cut the inside faces, similar to what I¡¯ve just done on the saw. But you have to clean out the bottoms by hand. Plus doing single cuts takes a lot of care to get right fitting joinery.?
-
I ?would test the quality of your bandsaw cuts in the timber you¡¯re planning on using. I¡¯ve been surprised at times to discover that the bandsaw can cut well enough (smooth enough) for glue-quality joinery but not in very many
species. Most splinter just enough to make exposed joinery like bridle joints problematic. And you are still doing the hand work.?
-
That leaves oversize slot cutters on the shaper with a homemade hood. I¡¯m planning on making chairs with bridle joints and will purchase one or more identical fixed width cutters from Whitehill. I agree that the adjustable versions
are expensive. Getting said cutters, say 300/350mm x 10/12mm will do a beautiful job on the shaper. But even those cutters (non adjustable) add up.?
I think you¡¯re asking the right questions. The solution you choose will come down to how much handwork you want to do, how well your selected timber machines, and how much money you want to spend. Keep us
posted please!
Just use one blade and raise/lower it accordingly. Don't need to spend the money on a dado set for one project.
On Wednesday, July 31, 2024 at 03:50:01 PM MST, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Thanks Brian. That is an option and if I go that route, I would like to build a tenoning hood to make it safe. Since Forrest 12¡± dado king is ~$700, I thought I ask what others are
doing.
?
On Jul 31, 2024, at 6:43?PM, Brian Lamb via groups.io <blamb11@...> wrote:
?
Largest I've done on the saw was a back bevel on a table top using a 12" blade on the shaper spindle giving me right at about 4" of depth. It's scary as hell given
you can't run it in any sort of guard. If you have a 350mm blade and want to try... you can get it done. I think the safer, if more work route, is the bandsaw and clean up the slot on the bottom.
On Wednesday, July 31, 2024 at 03:21:53 PM MST, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Thanks Brian. Bandsaw is definitely an option. I am trying to find out if anyone is doing this on shaper or saw. If so, how?
On Jul 31, 2024, at 6:07?PM, Brian Lamb via groups.io <blamb11@...> wrote:
?
Bandsaw... you can slot as deep as you would like. Cut both sides and the flatten out the bottom of the slot.
On Wednesday, July 31, 2024 at 03:02:54 PM MST, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Hi Brett,
I assume you have more the 4¡± capability on the saw. Do you slot that high on the saw?
I am trying to figure out if I am giving up on this option too quickly, after a few tries. I believe the blade is sharp but I could try it again with a sharpened blade.
I wish I could find a 350 mm slotting blade.
?
On Jul 31, 2024, at 5:29?PM, Brett Wissel via groups.io <Brettwissel@...> wrote:
?
Bandsaw and chisel or sanding block to achieve finished edges where circular blades can't reach.
?
On Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 12:46?PM imranindiana via
<imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
??Hi Mikelis,
Can¡¯t take credit for the design, following caught my eye:
I should have added that while I can get ~4¡± cut (never tested it) on KF700 with 300-315 mm blade, I only get 3.3¡± on K975. KF700 is now configured as a shaper so this is putting
me at a disadvantage. Therefore, Felder slotting blade does not get me to 4¡± depth of cut.
?
On Jul 31, 2024, at 1:23?PM, Mi?elis Vindavs via <mikelis.vindavs=[email protected]> wrote:
?
That looks like a cool design for the stepstool.
Not sure if this helps any, but Felder makes a slotting/grooving blade in two sizes - 230x4 and 300x5 (03.0.030). It would still require multiple passes but perhaps fewer than the
rip blade, depending on how wide yours is.?
?
On Wed, 31 Jul 2024 at 19:49, imranindiana via
<imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
I came across a step stool design that requires ~4¡± deep slots. I know there are other ways to achieve the look of an angled bridle joint but these methods require more work. Here
is what I would like to build. 3 pieces that make each side of the frame are 4¡± wide.
Here is a prototype with just under 3¡± of slotting capability. Wood is just pine construction lumber.
I know I could have done a few things to improve the proportions but this exercise has brought up the question about slotting capabilities.
I tried the 4¡± deep angle slot on the table saw (350 mm, IIRC 28 tooth rip blade) but it was a slow process. I imagine it would be even slower in hard wood. This is where I decided
to switch to shaper which reduced my slotting capability to just under 3¡±. For the slot (for stretcher) in the upper part of the legs I rough cut on bandsaw and then cleaned up on shaper.
All this to ask the question, what slotting capabilities do you guys have? At what point do you start thinking of alternative methods? I do not want to add a machine but I could increase
my capability with a tenoning hood. If I go this route, I would like to build one that accommodates a 12¡± dado. BTW, Whitehill makes a 300 mm adj groover but it is over $1K.
?
--
Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd)
St Louis, MO 63110
314.772.2167
brett@...
|
Yea, and mondo pucker factor too. ? ?
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jul 31, 2024, at 6:12?PM, David Luckensmeyer via groups.io <dhluckens@...> wrote:
Hi David B. ? I love your stack of Forrest Dado blades. That must have made quite some noise on start-up!
? ?
?
Imran,
I dealt with this many years ago. ?I ended up using a 300mm Forrest Dado King on the spindle shaper on my KF700. ?This gave me a slot/mortise/tenon DOC of 5¡±. ? Since your KF700 is configured as a shaper now,
why don¡¯t you just mount a large saw blade on the arbor, build yourself some kind of simple hood for safety, and cut the slots in that manner. ?Successive cuts while raising the blade between cuts should do it. ?You can angle your crosscut fence as required
to get the bottom of the slot angled perfectly. ?
<Dado King on KF700 Shaper.jpeg>
<Dado King on KF700 Shaper2.jpeg>
I also have some slot clutters you are willing to borrow if you pay the postage. ?I have a pair of 4mm slot cutters that are 230mm diameter which would give about a 75mm DOC.
I also have a groover that is 250mm diameter - two piece that can be sized for 8-15mm thickness. ?This would also provide about 70mm DOC to the hub area.
Both of those would required a tenoning hood for safety that can be shop built. ?Let me know if this would help.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
On Jul 31, 2024, at 5:52?PM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
?
David,
Thanks for the detailed response. You have reinforced what I have experienced in my trials. I started the project attempting the 4¡± angled bridle slot and tenon and found while cuts were crisp there was slight
variation in joints.
If I can get a slotting blade in 350mm dia, I would like to still give it a try on the saw. None have come up in my searches. S&S top out around 200mm. FS Tool has a 250 mm dia/10mm kerf for $463 but unlike
Felder (300mm-6 teeth) it has 24 teeth. Do you know of any on your end??
?
On Jul 31, 2024, at 7:34?PM, David Luckensmeyer via groups.io <dhluckens@...> wrote:
?
You raise a method of work question worthy of consideration. The limits of slot cutters, and machinery are why we do not see large bridle style joints in mainstream furniture and magazines. They have to be
done by hand or else a fair bit of money is needed. Both limit commerciality.?
The issue you raise is similar to my half lap joint problem, except that the inside faces of half lap joints are hidden. Bridle joints are entirely exposed and so any clean up work is there for all to see.
Consequently your scenario is even harder than mine.?
-
You could use a large blade on saw or shaper and cut the inside faces, similar to what I¡¯ve just done on the saw. But you have to clean out the bottoms by hand. Plus doing single cuts takes a lot of care to get right fitting joinery.?
-
I ?would test the quality of your bandsaw cuts in the timber you¡¯re planning on using. I¡¯ve been surprised at times to discover that the bandsaw can cut well enough (smooth enough) for glue-quality joinery but not in very many
species. Most splinter just enough to make exposed joinery like bridle joints problematic. And you are still doing the hand work.?
-
That leaves oversize slot cutters on the shaper with a homemade hood. I¡¯m planning on making chairs with bridle joints and will purchase one or more identical fixed width cutters from Whitehill. I agree that the adjustable versions
are expensive. Getting said cutters, say 300/350mm x 10/12mm will do a beautiful job on the shaper. But even those cutters (non adjustable) add up.?
I think you¡¯re asking the right questions. The solution you choose will come down to how much handwork you want to do, how well your selected timber machines, and how much money you want to spend. Keep us
posted please!
Just use one blade and raise/lower it accordingly. Don't need to spend the money on a dado set for one project.
On Wednesday, July 31, 2024 at 03:50:01 PM MST, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Thanks Brian. That is an option and if I go that route, I would like to build a tenoning hood to make it safe. Since Forrest 12¡± dado king is ~$700, I thought I ask what others are
doing.
?
On Jul 31, 2024, at 6:43?PM, Brian Lamb via groups.io <blamb11@...> wrote:
?
Largest I've done on the saw was a back bevel on a table top using a 12" blade on the shaper spindle giving me right at about 4" of depth. It's scary as hell given
you can't run it in any sort of guard. If you have a 350mm blade and want to try... you can get it done. I think the safer, if more work route, is the bandsaw and clean up the slot on the bottom.
On Wednesday, July 31, 2024 at 03:21:53 PM MST, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Thanks Brian. Bandsaw is definitely an option. I am trying to find out if anyone is doing this on shaper or saw. If so, how?
On Jul 31, 2024, at 6:07?PM, Brian Lamb via groups.io <blamb11@...> wrote:
?
Bandsaw... you can slot as deep as you would like. Cut both sides and the flatten out the bottom of the slot.
On Wednesday, July 31, 2024 at 03:02:54 PM MST, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Hi Brett,
I assume you have more the 4¡± capability on the saw. Do you slot that high on the saw?
I am trying to figure out if I am giving up on this option too quickly, after a few tries. I believe the blade is sharp but I could try it again with a sharpened blade.
I wish I could find a 350 mm slotting blade.
?
On Jul 31, 2024, at 5:29?PM, Brett Wissel via groups.io <Brettwissel@...> wrote:
?
Bandsaw and chisel or sanding block to achieve finished edges where circular blades can't reach.
?
On Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 12:46?PM imranindiana via
<imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
??Hi Mikelis,
Can¡¯t take credit for the design, following caught my eye:
I should have added that while I can get ~4¡± cut (never tested it) on KF700 with 300-315 mm blade, I only get 3.3¡± on K975. KF700 is now configured as a shaper so this is putting
me at a disadvantage. Therefore, Felder slotting blade does not get me to 4¡± depth of cut.
?
On Jul 31, 2024, at 1:23?PM, Mi?elis Vindavs via <mikelis.vindavs=[email protected]> wrote:
?
That looks like a cool design for the stepstool.
Not sure if this helps any, but Felder makes a slotting/grooving blade in two sizes - 230x4 and 300x5 (03.0.030). It would still require multiple passes but perhaps fewer than the
rip blade, depending on how wide yours is.?
?
On Wed, 31 Jul 2024 at 19:49, imranindiana via
<imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
I came across a step stool design that requires ~4¡± deep slots. I know there are other ways to achieve the look of an angled bridle joint but these methods require more work. Here
is what I would like to build. 3 pieces that make each side of the frame are 4¡± wide.
Here is a prototype with just under 3¡± of slotting capability. Wood is just pine construction lumber.
I know I could have done a few things to improve the proportions but this exercise has brought up the question about slotting capabilities.
I tried the 4¡± deep angle slot on the table saw (350 mm, IIRC 28 tooth rip blade) but it was a slow process. I imagine it would be even slower in hard wood. This is where I decided
to switch to shaper which reduced my slotting capability to just under 3¡±. For the slot (for stretcher) in the upper part of the legs I rough cut on bandsaw and then cleaned up on shaper.
All this to ask the question, what slotting capabilities do you guys have? At what point do you start thinking of alternative methods? I do not want to add a machine but I could increase
my capability with a tenoning hood. If I go this route, I would like to build one that accommodates a 12¡± dado. BTW, Whitehill makes a 300 mm adj groover but it is over $1K.
?
--
Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd)
St Louis, MO 63110
314.772.2167
brett@...
?
|
Hi David B.
?
I love your stack of Forrest Dado blades. That must have made quite some noise on start-up!
?
?
?
Imran,
I dealt with this many years ago. ?I ended up using a 300mm Forrest Dado King on the spindle shaper on my KF700. ?This gave me a slot/mortise/tenon DOC of 5¡±. ? Since your KF700 is configured as a shaper now,
why don¡¯t you just mount a large saw blade on the arbor, build yourself some kind of simple hood for safety, and cut the slots in that manner. ?Successive cuts while raising the blade between cuts should do it. ?You can angle your crosscut fence as required
to get the bottom of the slot angled perfectly. ?
I also have some slot clutters you are willing to borrow if you pay the postage. ?I have a pair of 4mm slot cutters that are 230mm diameter which would give about a 75mm DOC.
I also have a groover that is 250mm diameter - two piece that can be sized for 8-15mm thickness. ?This would also provide about 70mm DOC to the hub area.
Both of those would required a tenoning hood for safety that can be shop built. ?Let me know if this would help.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jul 31, 2024, at 5:52?PM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
?
David,
Thanks for the detailed response. You have reinforced what I have experienced in my trials. I started the project attempting the 4¡± angled bridle slot and tenon and found while cuts were crisp there was slight
variation in joints.
If I can get a slotting blade in 350mm dia, I would like to still give it a try on the saw. None have come up in my searches. S&S top out around 200mm. FS Tool has a 250 mm dia/10mm kerf for $463 but unlike
Felder (300mm-6 teeth) it has 24 teeth. Do you know of any on your end??
?
On Jul 31, 2024, at 7:34?PM, David Luckensmeyer via groups.io <dhluckens@...> wrote:
?
You raise a method of work question worthy of consideration. The limits of slot cutters, and machinery are why we do not see large bridle style joints in mainstream furniture and magazines. They have to be
done by hand or else a fair bit of money is needed. Both limit commerciality.?
The issue you raise is similar to my half lap joint problem, except that the inside faces of half lap joints are hidden. Bridle joints are entirely exposed and so any clean up work is there for all to see.
Consequently your scenario is even harder than mine.?
-
You could use a large blade on saw or shaper and cut the inside faces, similar to what I¡¯ve just done on the saw. But you have to clean out the bottoms by hand. Plus doing single cuts takes a lot of care to get right fitting joinery.?
-
I ?would test the quality of your bandsaw cuts in the timber you¡¯re planning on using. I¡¯ve been surprised at times to discover that the bandsaw can cut well enough (smooth enough) for glue-quality joinery but not in very many
species. Most splinter just enough to make exposed joinery like bridle joints problematic. And you are still doing the hand work.?
-
That leaves oversize slot cutters on the shaper with a homemade hood. I¡¯m planning on making chairs with bridle joints and will purchase one or more identical fixed width cutters from Whitehill. I agree that the adjustable versions
are expensive. Getting said cutters, say 300/350mm x 10/12mm will do a beautiful job on the shaper. But even those cutters (non adjustable) add up.?
I think you¡¯re asking the right questions. The solution you choose will come down to how much handwork you want to do, how well your selected timber machines, and how much money you want to spend. Keep us
posted please!
Just use one blade and raise/lower it accordingly. Don't need to spend the money on a dado set for one project.
On Wednesday, July 31, 2024 at 03:50:01 PM MST, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Thanks Brian. That is an option and if I go that route, I would like to build a tenoning hood to make it safe. Since Forrest 12¡± dado king is ~$700, I thought I ask what others are
doing.
?
On Jul 31, 2024, at 6:43?PM, Brian Lamb via groups.io <blamb11@...> wrote:
?
Largest I've done on the saw was a back bevel on a table top using a 12" blade on the shaper spindle giving me right at about 4" of depth. It's scary as hell given
you can't run it in any sort of guard. If you have a 350mm blade and want to try... you can get it done. I think the safer, if more work route, is the bandsaw and clean up the slot on the bottom.
On Wednesday, July 31, 2024 at 03:21:53 PM MST, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Thanks Brian. Bandsaw is definitely an option. I am trying to find out if anyone is doing this on shaper or saw. If so, how?
On Jul 31, 2024, at 6:07?PM, Brian Lamb via groups.io <blamb11@...> wrote:
?
Bandsaw... you can slot as deep as you would like. Cut both sides and the flatten out the bottom of the slot.
On Wednesday, July 31, 2024 at 03:02:54 PM MST, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Hi Brett,
I assume you have more the 4¡± capability on the saw. Do you slot that high on the saw?
I am trying to figure out if I am giving up on this option too quickly, after a few tries. I believe the blade is sharp but I could try it again with a sharpened blade.
I wish I could find a 350 mm slotting blade.
?
On Jul 31, 2024, at 5:29?PM, Brett Wissel via groups.io <Brettwissel@...> wrote:
?
Bandsaw and chisel or sanding block to achieve finished edges where circular blades can't reach.
?
On Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 12:46?PM imranindiana via
<imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
??Hi Mikelis,
Can¡¯t take credit for the design, following caught my eye:
I should have added that while I can get ~4¡± cut (never tested it) on KF700 with 300-315 mm blade, I only get 3.3¡± on K975. KF700 is now configured as a shaper so this is putting
me at a disadvantage. Therefore, Felder slotting blade does not get me to 4¡± depth of cut.
?
On Jul 31, 2024, at 1:23?PM, Mi?elis Vindavs via <mikelis.vindavs=[email protected]> wrote:
?
That looks like a cool design for the stepstool.
Not sure if this helps any, but Felder makes a slotting/grooving blade in two sizes - 230x4 and 300x5 (03.0.030). It would still require multiple passes but perhaps fewer than the
rip blade, depending on how wide yours is.?
?
On Wed, 31 Jul 2024 at 19:49, imranindiana via
<imranindiana=[email protected]> wrote:
I came across a step stool design that requires ~4¡± deep slots. I know there are other ways to achieve the look of an angled bridle joint but these methods require more work. Here
is what I would like to build. 3 pieces that make each side of the frame are 4¡± wide.
Here is a prototype with just under 3¡± of slotting capability. Wood is just pine construction lumber.
I know I could have done a few things to improve the proportions but this exercise has brought up the question about slotting capabilities.
I tried the 4¡± deep angle slot on the table saw (350 mm, IIRC 28 tooth rip blade) but it was a slow process. I imagine it would be even slower in hard wood. This is where I decided
to switch to shaper which reduced my slotting capability to just under 3¡±. For the slot (for stretcher) in the upper part of the legs I rough cut on bandsaw and then cleaned up on shaper.
All this to ask the question, what slotting capabilities do you guys have? At what point do you start thinking of alternative methods? I do not want to add a machine but I could increase
my capability with a tenoning hood. If I go this route, I would like to build one that accommodates a 12¡± dado. BTW, Whitehill makes a 300 mm adj groover but it is over $1K.
?
--
Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd)
St Louis, MO 63110
314.772.2167
brett@...
?
|
Imran,
I dealt with this many years ago. ?I ended up using a 300mm Forrest Dado King on the spindle shaper on my KF700. ?This gave me a slot/mortise/tenon DOC of 5¡±. ? Since your KF700 is configured as a shaper now, why don¡¯t you just mount a large saw blade on the arbor, build yourself some kind of simple hood for safety, and cut the slots in that manner. ?Successive cuts while raising the blade between cuts should do it. ?You can angle your crosscut fence as required to get the bottom of the slot angled perfectly. ?
I also have some slot clutters you are willing to borrow if you pay the postage. ?I have a pair of 4mm slot cutters that are 230mm diameter which would give about a 75mm DOC.
I also have a groover that is 250mm diameter - two piece that can be sized for 8-15mm thickness. ?This would also provide about 70mm DOC to the hub area.
Both of those would required a tenoning hood for safety that can be shop built. ?Let me know if this would help.
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jul 31, 2024, at 5:52?PM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
David,
Thanks for the detailed response. You have reinforced what I have experienced in my trials. I started the project attempting the 4¡± angled bridle slot and tenon and found while cuts were crisp there was slight variation in joints.
If I can get a slotting blade in 350mm dia, I would like to still give it a try on the saw. None have come up in my searches. S&S top out around 200mm. FS Tool has a 250 mm dia/10mm kerf for $463 but unlike Felder (300mm-6 teeth) it has 24 teeth. Do you know of any on your end??
On Jul 31, 2024, at 7:34?PM, David Luckensmeyer via groups.io <dhluckens@...> wrote:
?
Imran,?
You raise a method of work question worthy of consideration. The limits of slot cutters, and machinery are why we do not see large bridle style joints in mainstream furniture and magazines. They have to be done by hand or else a fair bit of money
is needed. Both limit commerciality.?
The issue you raise is similar to my half lap joint problem, except that the inside faces of half lap joints are hidden. Bridle joints are entirely exposed and so any clean up work is there for all to see. Consequently your scenario is even harder
than mine.?
- You could use a large blade on saw or shaper and cut the inside faces, similar to what I¡¯ve just done on the saw. But you have to clean out the bottoms by hand. Plus doing single cuts takes a lot of care to get right
fitting joinery.?
- I ?would test the quality of your bandsaw cuts in the timber you¡¯re planning on using. I¡¯ve been surprised at times to discover that the bandsaw can cut well enough (smooth enough) for glue-quality joinery but not in
very many species. Most splinter just enough to make exposed joinery like bridle joints problematic. And you are still doing the hand work.?
- That leaves oversize slot cutters on the shaper with a homemade hood. I¡¯m planning on making chairs with bridle joints and will purchase one or more identical fixed width cutters from Whitehill. I agree that the adjustable
versions are expensive. Getting said cutters, say 300/350mm x 10/12mm will do a beautiful job on the shaper. But even those cutters (non adjustable) add up.?
I think you¡¯re asking the right questions. The solution you choose will come down to how much handwork you want to do, how well your selected timber machines, and how much money you want to spend. Keep us posted please!
Just use one blade and raise/lower it accordingly. Don't need to spend the money on a dado set for one project.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
lambtoolworks.com
On Wednesday, July 31, 2024 at 03:50:01 PM MST, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Thanks Brian. That is an option and if I go that route, I would like to build a tenoning hood to make it safe. Since Forrest 12¡± dado king is ~$700, I thought I ask what others are doing.
On Jul 31, 2024, at 6:43?PM, Brian Lamb via groups.io <blamb11@...> wrote:
?
Largest I've done on the saw was a back bevel on a table top using a 12" blade on the shaper spindle giving me right at about 4" of depth. It's scary as hell given you can't run it in any sort of guard. If you have a 350mm blade and want to try...
you can get it done. I think the safer, if more work route, is the bandsaw and clean up the slot on the bottom.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
lambtoolworks.com
On Wednesday, July 31, 2024 at 03:21:53 PM MST, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Thanks Brian. Bandsaw is definitely an option. I am trying to find out if anyone is doing this on shaper or saw. If so, how?
On Jul 31, 2024, at 6:07?PM, Brian Lamb via groups.io <blamb11@...> wrote:
?
Bandsaw... you can slot as deep as you would like. Cut both sides and the flatten out the bottom of the slot.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
lambtoolworks.com
On Wednesday, July 31, 2024 at 03:02:54 PM MST, imranindiana <imranindiana@...> wrote:
Hi Brett,
I assume you have more the 4¡± capability on the saw. Do you slot that high on the saw?
I am trying to figure out if I am giving up on this option too quickly, after a few tries. I believe the blade is sharp but I could try it again with a sharpened blade.
I wish I could find a 350 mm slotting blade.
On Jul 31, 2024, at 5:29?PM, Brett Wissel via groups.io <Brettwissel@...> wrote:
?
Bandsaw and chisel or sanding block to achieve finished edges where circular blades can't reach.
On Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 12:46?PM imranindiana via
<imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote:
??Hi Mikelis,
Can¡¯t take credit for the design, following caught my eye:
I should have added that while I can get ~4¡± cut (never tested it) on KF700 with 300-315 mm blade, I only get 3.3¡± on K975. KF700 is now configured as a shaper so this is putting me at a disadvantage. Therefore, Felder slotting blade does not get me to
4¡± depth of cut.
On Jul 31, 2024, at 1:23?PM, Mi?elis Vindavs via <mikelis.vindavs= [email protected]> wrote:
?
That looks like a cool design for the stepstool.
Not sure if this helps any, but Felder makes a slotting/grooving blade in two sizes - 230x4 and 300x5 (03.0.030). It would still require multiple passes but perhaps fewer than the rip blade, depending on how wide yours is.?
On Wed, 31 Jul 2024 at 19:49, imranindiana via
<imranindiana= [email protected]> wrote:
I came across a step stool design that requires ~4¡± deep slots. I know there are other ways to achieve the look of an angled bridle joint but these methods require more work. Here is what I would like to build. 3 pieces that make each side of the frame
are 4¡± wide.
Here is a prototype with just under 3¡± of slotting capability. Wood is just pine construction lumber.
I know I could have done a few things to improve the proportions but this exercise has brought up the question about slotting capabilities.
I tried the 4¡± deep angle slot on the table saw (350 mm, IIRC 28 tooth rip blade) but it was a slow process. I imagine it would be even slower in hard wood. This is where I decided to switch to shaper which reduced my slotting capability to just under
3¡±. For the slot (for stretcher) in the upper part of the legs I rough cut on bandsaw and then cleaned up on shaper.
All this to ask the question, what slotting capabilities do you guys have? At what point do you start thinking of alternative methods? I do not want to add a machine but I could increase my capability with a tenoning hood. If I go this route, I would like
to build one that accommodates a 12¡± dado. BTW, Whitehill makes a 300 mm adj groover but it is over $1K.
Thoughts?
--
Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd)
St Louis, MO 63110
314.772.2167
brett@...
|
imran
David P. Best
David Luckensmeyer