Felder Dado and Shaper cutter questions
Hi all - I am negotiating the purchase of an older KF700 (year 2000). I realize that my typical joinery/grooving/rabbeting techniques with a US style dado blade set on a 5/8 arbor are going to need to change. I've got a few questions:
1. will any Felder saw accept their proprietary adjustable dado heads, or does the tool need to be ordered specifically capable (for example, with Minimax a saw must be specifically ordered with slider & arbor positioned for dado cuts)
2. is there a different dado table top "zero clearance" type insert, and does anyone know the part # for a 2000 year saw (current owner doesn't have part or diagram) - I can also fab one from aluminum or plywood
3. will the 180 or 228mm adjustable dado saw specific heads also fit on the 30mm shaper spindle? That would at least partially justify the insane pricing from Felder.
4. will any and all shaper specific heads fit on the saw spindle...or are they missing the saw blade specific brake pin holes? Thinking Magic Moulder concept, if you're familiar.
5. for less cost than an adjustable head, I am looking at the fixed 4mm and 5mm grooving table saw blades. Has anyone used the 5mm, and is it a good match (or sloppy) for Baltic Birch 5mm plywood? In cross grain, does the 6 flat tooth configuration make for terribly ugly tearout?
6. if I have a two blade, "box joint cutter" set, and I'm willing to pay to have it bored for the Felder saw arbor, does the blade clamp have room to stack two blade thicknesses on it? I could specify that the blade brake pins be carefully offset to make sure the interlocking left/right carbide cutters don't conflict. This would at least allow for nominal 1/4" dados. Let me know if there is something specific about the arbor length or nut that would make this unsafe or unfeasible. I don't have the saw in my possession yet, so I can't self determine this.
7. what manufacturers make an alternative dado head for felder, and are they any more affordable? i.e. $200-400 vs. $600+
This tool only has a 30mm shaper spindle. Regarding the right part # for a router 15,000RPM spindle, the catalogue and e-shop are confusing for part #'s for this older machine. I am guessing, that as a 3 speed machine, I need to look at the Series 6 part #401-136, which for some shaper parts in the catalog also has series 7 or 3 speeds called out in parantheses.
Can anyone with this age machine confirm that part #424-111 for series 700 from April/2007 is the WRONG part #? I'd hate to spend $900 and find out I bought the wrong one.
Also, if anyone has an adjustable dado cutter or high speed spindle they find is just collecting dust on the shelf, I'd be open to negotiating purchase. Reply to me direct, so we don't clutter up the forum.
thanks a ton, (well 600+ kilos, that's the weight of this machine)
Steve Z./Seattle
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AJ,
It makes a lot of sense for a business to go for commissioning for reasons you cited and also because a business should recoup the cost, otherwise it is a bad investment. I do not know business law but there is also depreciation and other tax advantages that a hobby person does not have.
So a totally different scenario. Thanks for bringing that important perspective into this conversation.
Imran
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On Mar 10, 2021, at 8:47 AM, AJ Quinter <ajquinter@...> wrote: ?I was glad that I chose to have my saw commissioned.? I have no doubt I could have worked through the commissioning on my own, but it would have taken me significantly more time (as a business, I felt my time was better spent otherwise).? I also looked at it more as an insurance policy with the saw.? Like everyone else, I absolutely hate paying for insurance right up until the point I need it!
I wish there were an option for half the money to get the sliding table installed.? I could have calibrated the fences, stops, etc. myself.??
AJ
Hayrake Furniture Co.
@hayrakefurniture on IG
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Re: Tersa Replacement Blades
I believe worse thing now a days, that is common, is resins and glues. With wider machines, I think, the likelyhood of processing glued boards goes up even for a hobby WW.
Imran
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On Mar 10, 2021, at 8:17 AM, David Sabo via groups.io <sabo_dave@...> wrote:
?Cliff - for hobby or one man commercial shop use, HSS is just fine.
Fact is the majority of machines shipped with and were used with HSS knives for decades with little trouble. If you’re running miles of material a week and would have to change the blades frequently , the expense of carbide quickly pays for itself. If you like having the bestus, latest and greatest. Carbide is the ticket, especially a spiral head cutter. Which , would be of more value cutting those knarly woods with silica in them than straight carbide knives.
As for silica in hardwoods, well, that’s a bit of a red herring. Sure, silica is comprised of the most abundant elements on earth; but it’s not present in levels that quickly dull tooling in most North American hardwoods. Teak? Yup. Ipe? Yes. Other tropical woods with names I can barely pronounce much less spell ? You betcha.
But , the average guy or average small shop producing moderate levels of furniture from oak, cherry, maple, and walnut. Or beech, ash, and fir. If you use mahogany (a tropical) a lot - it’s not heavy in silica content either.
Bottom line is, HSS is just fine many operations. Don’t poo poo it.
D
Sent from my iEye
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I was glad that I chose to have my saw commissioned.? I have no doubt I could have worked through the commissioning on my own, but it would have taken me significantly more time (as a business, I felt my time was better spent otherwise).? I also looked at it more as an insurance policy with the saw.? Like everyone else, I absolutely hate paying for insurance right up until the point I need it!
I wish there were an option for half the money to get the sliding table installed.? I could have calibrated the fences, stops, etc. myself.??
AJ
Hayrake Furniture Co.
@hayrakefurniture on IG
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Re: Tersa Replacement Blades
Cliff - for hobby or one man commercial shop use, HSS is just fine.
Fact is the majority of machines shipped with and were used with HSS knives for decades with little trouble. If you’re running miles of material a week and would have to change the blades frequently , the expense of carbide quickly pays for itself. If you like having the bestus, latest and greatest. Carbide is the ticket, especially a spiral head cutter. Which , would be of more value cutting those knarly woods with silica in them than straight carbide knives.
As for silica in hardwoods, well, that’s a bit of a red herring. Sure, silica is comprised of the most abundant elements on earth; but it’s not present in levels that quickly dull tooling in most North American hardwoods. Teak? Yup. Ipe? Yes. Other tropical woods with names I can barely pronounce much less spell ? You betcha.
But , the average guy or average small shop producing moderate levels of furniture from oak, cherry, maple, and walnut. Or beech, ash, and fir. If you use mahogany (a tropical) a lot - it’s not heavy in silica content either.
Bottom line is, HSS is just fine many operations. Don’t poo poo it.
D
Sent from my iEye
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I am sure this is well known to the group but for new comers to slider be aware that while you can carry out various checks the calibration is done in a certain order.
For this reason, I perform checks in the order the calibration is done so you do not have to repeat or worse spend bunch of time on calibrating the wrong thing.
Survival guide offers this order.
Imran
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On Mar 10, 2021, at 7:35 AM, Steven Anderson via groups.io <stevenshop@...> wrote: ?Installing the slider and calibrating is not hard to do, just time-consuming. Go one step at a time and plan on a whole day to get it right. I bought a K915 slider, installed and calibrated it myself.? It has worked perfectly for five or six years. Save the money. If you give up, then have them in to do the work.
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Installing the slider and calibrating is not hard to do, just time-consuming. Go one step at a time and plan on a whole day to get it right. I bought a K915 slider, installed and calibrated it myself.? It has worked perfectly for five or six years. Save the money. If you give up, then have them in to do the work.
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Re: Tersa Replacement Blades
Hi Cliff, I got M+ but am curious now as to what I have on the machine. This is my first replacement set. When I got the machine it still had the original edge at 7 yrs of age. It cut fine and recently I switched to the 2nd edge. I have had it for 3 yrs now.
To the group, Is there any rule of thumb on how much wood one edge can process. Or if one can tell from chips that it is time to replace. I am sure with 10HP you can cut wood with dull knives but do the chips change from curls to powdery?
I remember when I got Dual51, I noted the chips were entirely different than my previous planer. They were like a pillow in the drum of my old collector (wood was cypress). I figured it must be due to the large dia of the cutter head. I am not getting that kind of chips even with the new edge.
Imran
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On Mar 9, 2021, at 11:48 PM, Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq. <rohrabacher@...> wrote: ?
High speed steel? won't stand up to the silica in hardwoods.??
There are grades? that will? but straight HSS isn't going to
On 3/5/21 7:56 AM, imranindiana via
groups.io wrote:
I need to order my first replacement Tersa knives for Dual51.
l see HSS and M+ with little diff in price. Any
recommendations between the two? Per the website HSS is fine for
common hardwoods that I intend to use and M+ is recommended for
harder woods like hickory and exotics. I do not have plans for
using these harder woods but if M+ is more durable and equally
sharp as HSS then why not get M+.
How about a reliable place to order from. I see that many
outfits are making them.
This place in Canada claims to sell Tersa brand made in
Switzerland
Hermance offers Tigra brand for similar price as above.
American National Knife offers a HSS blade that is $10 more
per blade.
BTW, is anyone offering them with side 1/2
identification markings?
I am leaning towards Canadian outfit and HSS but would
like to learn from collective.
Imran
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More info on the machine:
- purchased June 2016, delivered late 2016, has sat in my woodshop unused till now, woodshop is heated with 24x7
dehumidifier, unit never used
Total out of pocket for machine and accessories is $10,400.85 which reflects a substantial discount from Felder which most likely one would not get in current conditions as I had also purchased another $70K of stuff from Felder at the same time. I spoke to Felder today, and they indicate that new machine delivery is out into 2022 due to supply chain issues so if you want a new machine now, this is likely the only one available on the market.
Find attached a detailed run-down of all the options on this machine. It is 3x230V power.
I'll be at my shop tomorrow and will get some photos.
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Re: Tersa Replacement Blades
High speed steel? won't stand up to the silica in hardwoods.??
There are grades? that will? but straight HSS isn't going to
On 3/5/21 7:56 AM, imranindiana via
groups.io wrote:
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Show quoted text
I need to order my first replacement Tersa knives for Dual51.
l see HSS and M+ with little diff in price. Any
recommendations between the two? Per the website HSS is fine for
common hardwoods that I intend to use and M+ is recommended for
harder woods like hickory and exotics. I do not have plans for
using these harder woods but if M+ is more durable and equally
sharp as HSS then why not get M+.
How about a reliable place to order from. I see that many
outfits are making them.
This place in Canada claims to sell Tersa brand made in
Switzerland
Hermance offers Tigra brand for similar price as above.
American National Knife offers a HSS blade that is $10 more
per blade.
BTW, is anyone offering them with side 1/2
identification markings?
I am leaning towards Canadian outfit and HSS but would
like to learn from collective.
Imran
|
Hard to say whether its worth the $1400, depends on the tech you get which is a crap shoot. There are enough folks here in addition to the Felder Tech support to help get you through it if you have the patience. Even if you have it commissioned you will likely need to make tweaks as you learn how the saw is performing. ?If you don’t have it commissioned (and even if you do) take twice as many pictures as you think you need and do a check for flatness of the cast and the rip fence and record it. Also i would recommend going through tech support for the initial setup and any adjustments out of the norm.
Below is my recent experience with the k940s:
My k940s came in good enough to get started with, the sliding table was on the high side 0.012 but consistent throughout, a bit to high for me and I readjusted to 0.006-0.008 which is my ideal. The toe out was right at 0.002 from the factory.
The blade was 90 to the slider but was off a little on the cast side, It was not off much and if you use a slider with the finished cut on the slider side then its really not an issue, if you want a perfectly square cut of the rip side then you may want to adjust it, i did end up correcting it when I readjusted the height of the slider but probably would have left it if I hadn’t, meaning if I was ok with the slider being 0.012 high.
My outrigger was a little low on the far end causing a few issues with fence adjustments, took a few days for me to realize it was the issue but pretty easy to adjust.
My cast iron top if I remember correctly was less than 0.0005 front to back, i left it alone. There was a slight dip in the top which I adjusted with the bolt from inside the cabinet, easy adjustment.
The rip fence you will need to fiddle with a little to get it adjusted to your desired toe out, doubtful it would go back to where the factory set it because it is greatly affected by how much you tighten the bolts, simple to adjust, took me about 1/2 hour on the k700 that i had but over 2 hr on the k940... found that there was a twist in my rip fence extrusion which was causing me to chase the setting...
Rip fence extrusion, check it for twist before adjusting for toe out..just say’in...
Power drive if you bought that option, had to recalibrate the angle but I believe that was due to me readjusting the slider to be co-planer. Was not that difficult tech support sent me som documents and you need a vernier protractor. I wouldn’t worry about this one, highly unlikely you will need to do this.?The blade was square to the sliding table but not to the cast iron which is the other reason I readjusted the slider, to be co-planer with the cast
If you bought the end of slide on/off switch, tape the cable and connector to the extrusion before you slide it on the saw, i failed too and ripped the connector right off ...
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On Mar 9, 2021, at 7:14 PM, Shinta Wakahisa via groups.io <vnh84@...> wrote:
?My KF700SP came well setup from factory despite some shipping/delivery issues, all minor IMHO.? Aside from some minor adjustments to get to the tolerances of 0.003" toe out for the rip fence and slider, I did not have to do much.? Honestly, the KF700SP assembly after delivery was straight forward.? I had to drill and tap a few holes for the overhead sawguard.? This saw shaper has DigiDrive for both saw and shaper.? This my personal experience only.? N = 1, so take it for whatever it is worth to you if applicable.??
Back on topic. Sorry for going tangential.??
SW
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David, I am interested, can you give a bit more info and what you would like for it, i am in the foothills of Cali so pick up is possible. Glen
Alpine Moulding and Millwork Inc.
Mail: ?? P.O. Box 257 ?????????? Avery, CA. 95224 Shop: 441 Pennsylvania Gulch Road ????????? Murphys, CA. 95247
????????? 650-678-3137 LIC # 707507
I have a Felder FD21 which I bought a few years ago and have never used, it is brand new. Looking to sell. It is fully loaded with many options. I'm located in the San Francisco Bay Area, would prefer a local buyer if possible, but if no local buyers could go through the trouble to crate it for delivery throughout USA. Let me know if you have interest.
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What are you looking to get for the machine? I've no idea what they cost.
Jason Jason Holtz
J. Holtz Furniture
3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
612 432-2765 -- Jason J. Holtz Furniture 3307 Snelling Ave. South Minneapolis, MN 55406
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My KF700SP came well setup from factory despite some shipping/delivery issues, all minor IMHO.? Aside from some minor adjustments to get to the tolerances of 0.003" toe out for the rip fence and slider, I did not have to do much.? Honestly, the KF700SP assembly after delivery was straight forward.? I had to drill and tap a few holes for the overhead sawguard.? This saw shaper has DigiDrive for both saw and shaper.? This my personal experience only.? N = 1, so take it for whatever it is worth to you if applicable.??
Back on topic. Sorry for going tangential.??
SW
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I just recently received a new K700S and I’m not expert but I feel it was dialed in really well from the factory.? Steve Lyde
www.Instagram.com/SL1800
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On Mar 9, 2021, at 10:37 AM, imranindiana via groups.io <imranindiana@...> wrote:
? Hi Jay, ? The benefits of commissioning have been shared here but it is a lot of money. My thoughts are that if you are fortunate enough to not feel the pain of $1400 and/or not comfortable with performing calibration go for it.
I believe Felder expects buyer to have the machine assembled prior to commissioning. So could one not decide on commissioning after delivery?
Now a days, with a delivery video, it should be easy to show if something arrives damaged. Harder to know issues like AJ though at the time of delivery. Just make sure to note anything out of ordinary no matter how insignificant. For example, on my used K975 purchase, the slider box was delivered upside down because skids came off of the bottom. It also had a hole in ply on one end but it was apparent that nothing was hit. It took me few months to get to the slider as I was out of the country for couple of months after delivery. Anyhow, I found the plate that carries the roller bearings sitting between the slider and it’s base. I had seen the saw prior to delivery, so I am fairly sure this occurred during shipment.
I have had good luck dealing with Felder on accessories that arrived damaged but some here had to go thru a lot to get satisfaction on machines that had issues. I am pretty sure that much more goes right than wrong so you are playing with odds.
Imran
On Mar 9, 2021, at 10:01 AM, jbowen@... wrote:
?Hmmmm, this has me concerned I ordered a k700s for delivery this summer and considered the onsite calibration but sales guy said these come in dialed in for the most part.? Reading through this thread I am reconsidering cost for onsite was $1,400. I am new to sliders, expectations are high I don't want that to go from excited to totally disappointed in a few hours. The forums thoughts for onsite calibration as part of delivery?
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I have a Felder FD21 which I bought a few years ago and have never used, it is brand new. Looking to sell. It is fully loaded with many options. I'm located in the San Francisco Bay Area, would prefer a local buyer if possible, but if no local buyers could go through the trouble to crate it for delivery throughout USA. Let me know if you have interest.
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Re: Boring techniques and jigs for passage doors
You can find some useful information here: ?
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Thanks Imran. It looks like Big Horn makes a similar jig. What do you find it’s shortcomings are?
Michael ? I have Kwikset 91380 which is apparently discontinued. I bought it used. It does the job but I cannot say I love it. ?I am planning to build new passage doors for my house and I am curious what methods, machinery, jigs and techniques people use to for boring for locksets.
Thanks in advance,
Michael
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Re: Boring techniques and jigs for passage doors
I used this tool for multiple installed doors using mortice locks and other specialized locks that requires more than a round hole. Works very well.
https://mbausa.com/souber-dbb-door-lock-morticer-standard-kit/
Ariel
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Hi Jay, ? The benefits of commissioning have been shared here but it is a lot of money. My thoughts are that if you are fortunate enough to not feel the pain of $1400 and/or not comfortable with performing calibration go for it.
I believe Felder expects buyer to have the machine assembled prior to commissioning. So could one not decide on commissioning after delivery?
Now a days, with a delivery video, it should be easy to show if something arrives damaged. Harder to know issues like AJ though at the time of delivery. Just make sure to note anything out of ordinary no matter how insignificant. For example, on my used K975 purchase, the slider box was delivered upside down because skids came off of the bottom. It also had a hole in ply on one end but it was apparent that nothing was hit. It took me few months to get to the slider as I was out of the country for couple of months after delivery. Anyhow, I found the plate that carries the roller bearings sitting between the slider and it’s base. I had seen the saw prior to delivery, so I am fairly sure this occurred during shipment.
I have had good luck dealing with Felder on accessories that arrived damaged but some here had to go thru a lot to get satisfaction on machines that had issues. I am pretty sure that much more goes right than wrong so you are playing with odds.
Imran
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On Mar 9, 2021, at 10:01 AM, jbowen@... wrote: ?Hmmmm, this has me concerned I ordered a k700s for delivery this summer and considered the onsite calibration but sales guy said these come in dialed in for the most part.? Reading through this thread I am reconsidering cost for onsite was $1,400. I am new to sliders, expectations are high I don't want that to go from excited to totally disappointed in a few hours. The forums thoughts for onsite calibration as part of delivery?
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Re: Boring techniques and jigs for passage doors
Thanks Tom. I looked more carefully and found the cylinder in my kit so I am happy to know that I have one less thing to do on my next install.
Imran?
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On Mar 9, 2021, at 11:05 AM, tom@... wrote: ?Hi Imran! Apologies for the delay, "busy-busy!!". I think this was covered by Chris, but the Templaco strike marker is a simple steel cylinder (1", 7/8", or 5/8") with a sharp point on one end. Once you've bored the door, you slip the strike marker into the door, close it, then slide the marking cylinder against the jamb to produce a small dimple, marking the center of the latch.?
?
Again, carpenters have been successfully fitting doors for generations prior to the introduction of these kits. I did the same myself for the first several years of my career. At this point in my career, I don't need to prove to anybody that I can do it "manually", and prefer to just get it done as quickly/easily as possible and spend my time on more interesting tasks...
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
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imran
Jason Holtz