ctrl + shift + ? :
Show all keyboard shortcuts
ctrl + g :
Navigate to a group
esc to dismiss
Re: Sliding Table ¡°90 Degree Jig¡±
#sawsetup
I would not use epoxy for edge banding.
I used TotalBoat clear high performance epoxy?to glue the arm to the rear leg for the rocking chair. I thought the epoxy?bond was stronger than Titebond III. This is the first time I used epoxy in the chair build.? But the result is not what I expected. The glue line of the front leg to seat using Titebond III is so much better (perfect) than the arm to rear leg joint using epoxy. It seems like epoxy had the chemical reaction with the walnut, no matter how much sanding I did, I cannot get rid of the dark color on the glue line. From now on, I will only use Titebond III.  
James
On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 8:04?PM David Luckensmeyer via <dhluckens= [email protected]> wrote:
Brian:
No worries. I had assumed that making a support to hold the curved edge parallel (i.e. the same orientation as I cut the half laps and dados in the first place) would be ¡°too much trouble¡±. But now I see that
all my alternatives are a fair bit of ¡°trouble¡± too, making this idea very relevant. The power of brainstorming!
?
David P:
Alas, a small CNC bed would be ever so useful! I have not seriously considered a small CNC like the Hammer, but despite my kicking and screaming and protests to date, I think I would love having one in my
shop. Ah yes, Fusion 360. One day ¡?
?
And Brett:
Thank you very much for sharing your experiences and what works for you. Your details are very helpful. I think I will have to experiment. If the 2mm is too thin, I can use it elsewhere and make new material
at 3mm (as I have enough Zebrano)¡ And while we are at it, I was thinking of using Titebond III. I could use polyurethane, or epoxy, or TBII or ¡ but I thought TBIII would be fine?
?
Thanks so much everyone for your input. I sometimes think we should share more of what we are making. This group is more valuable (to me) than even the biggest and best known of the online woodworking forums.
Thanks heaps.
?
?
I missed that the uprights were veneered, I thought they were solid. If you use a pattern to cut the odd shape, could you not use that same pattern to create a support that would hold the uprights
in the same orientation that you did the half lap/dado's? Essentially a jack that would hold the piece so that the top was parallel to the table surface. Then you could just use the same program style with two cuts per opening to trim the edge banding flush
with the existing slots.
On Monday, July 15, 2024 at 03:49:43 PM MST, David P. Best <dbestworkshop@...> wrote:
?
David B. I think you suggested a flatbed CNC router setup?!!
?
?
Have you considered something like this?
I would think twice before I ran quickly away from a Felder CNC router, but there are a number of respected brands who make smaller flatbed CNC routers that can be used to make 50
perfectly shaped cauls in a couple hours.? And many of them are light enough that you could host them up to your tall ceiling for storage when not in use.? Just think, having a small CNC router would motivate you to finish mastering Fusion 360. ?
?
|
Re: Sliding Table ¡°90 Degree Jig¡±
#sawsetup
Brian:
No worries. I had assumed that making a support to hold the curved edge parallel (i.e. the same orientation as I cut the half laps and dados in the first place) would be ¡°too much trouble¡±. But now I see that
all my alternatives are a fair bit of ¡°trouble¡± too, making this idea very relevant. The power of brainstorming!
?
David P:
Alas, a small CNC bed would be ever so useful! I have not seriously considered a small CNC like the Hammer, but despite my kicking and screaming and protests to date, I think I would love having one in my
shop. Ah yes, Fusion 360. One day ¡?
?
And Brett:
Thank you very much for sharing your experiences and what works for you. Your details are very helpful. I think I will have to experiment. If the 2mm is too thin, I can use it elsewhere and make new material
at 3mm (as I have enough Zebrano)¡ And while we are at it, I was thinking of using Titebond III. I could use polyurethane, or epoxy, or TBII or ¡ but I thought TBIII would be fine?
?
Thanks so much everyone for your input. I sometimes think we should share more of what we are making. This group is more valuable (to me) than even the biggest and best known of the online woodworking forums.
Thanks heaps.
?
?
I missed that the uprights were veneered, I thought they were solid. If you use a pattern to cut the odd shape, could you not use that same pattern to create a support that would hold the uprights
in the same orientation that you did the half lap/dado's? Essentially a jack that would hold the piece so that the top was parallel to the table surface. Then you could just use the same program style with two cuts per opening to trim the edge banding flush
with the existing slots.
On Monday, July 15, 2024 at 03:49:43 PM MST, David P. Best <dbestworkshop@...> wrote:
?
David B. I think you suggested a flatbed CNC router setup?!!
?
?
Have you considered something like this?
I would think twice before I ran quickly away from a Felder CNC router, but there are a number of respected brands who make smaller flatbed CNC routers that can be used to make 50
perfectly shaped cauls in a couple hours. ?And many of them are light enough that you could host them up to your tall ceiling for storage when not in use. ?Just think, having a small CNC router would motivate you to finish mastering Fusion 360. ?
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
?
?
|
Re: Sliding Table ¡°90 Degree Jig¡±
#sawsetup
I missed that the uprights were veneered, I thought they were solid. If you use a pattern to cut the odd shape, could you not use that same pattern to create a support that would hold the uprights in the same orientation that you did the half lap/dado's? Essentially a jack that would hold the piece so that the top was parallel to the table surface. Then you could just use the same program style with two cuts per opening to trim the edge banding flush with the existing slots.
Brian Lamb blamb11@... lambtoolworks.com
On Monday, July 15, 2024 at 03:49:43 PM MST, David P. Best <dbestworkshop@...> wrote:
David B. I think you suggested a flatbed CNC router setup?!!
?
Lucky,
Have you considered something like this?
|
I would think twice before I ran quickly away from a Felder CNC router, but there are a number of respected brands who make smaller flatbed CNC routers that can be used to make 50 perfectly shaped cauls in a couple hours. ?And many of them are light enough that you could host them up to your tall ceiling for storage when not in use. ?Just think, having a small CNC router would motivate you to finish mastering Fusion 360. ?
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
Re: Sliding Table ¡°90 Degree Jig¡±
#sawsetup
David B. I think you suggested a flatbed CNC router setup?!!
?
Lucky,
Have you considered something like this?
|
I would think twice before I ran quickly away from a Felder CNC router, but there are a number of respected brands who make smaller flatbed CNC routers that can be used to make 50 perfectly shaped cauls in a couple hours. ?And many of them are light enough that you could host them up to your tall ceiling for storage when not in use. ?Just think, having a small CNC router would motivate you to finish mastering Fusion 360. ?
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
Re: Sliding Table ¡°90 Degree Jig¡±
#sawsetup
Lucky -?
Trial and error the arcs vs. thickness, but I'd say at 3mm thick most edge band will pull in nicely on gentle radii given good end-point clamping,?1.5mm might start feeling flimsy. Keep shelf?vertical, banding laying?across top, clamp one end secure and pull it down by hand to the other end then clamp final?end. If you have a frame press or assembly table with stop?dogs and?extending clamps, it's super easy and hands free.? If you take Mike's band clamp concept one step further, you could band clamp the arc across a bench top with the straps fastened at the ends of the bench and the board assembly secured vertically in the middle and get both hoop tension and downward compression spread across the entire surface simultaneously in one action as well.
Lipping the edgebanding on the widebelt sounds smart and easiest when you have one available. By scoring, I was referring to the excess length ends of the edgebanding. On softer woods I often just slide a razor edge to sever enough fibers to allow a snap-break. On harder woods, chisel/mallet until similar can be achieved, sometimes angling the?blade for a guillotine effect.? It's quick and true when I know I'm following up with sanding/finishing. If your bands are 3mm or less, probably 2-3 good blows with a chisel already wide enough for the board thickness, then snap, you're on to sanding and no tearback.
Kumiko? Oh yeah!
On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 5:06?PM David Luckensmeyer via <dhluckens= [email protected]> wrote:
Hi Brett:
?
Thanks so much for the encouragement. I appreciate your thoughts ¨C and I don¡¯t think you¡¯ve missed anything. The power of brainstorming is such that even if multiple ideas end up getting dismissed, there is
no telling what new ideas or solutions arise from those initial ones.
?
For example, I had never thought about the success of edge banding by fastening just the ends. I can picture how that would work but I¡¯d be so fearful that the glue line might not be ¡°perfect¡± along the arc.
But this raises another question: what thickness of edge lamination would you use? The face laminations are 3mm, but I find this a bit too stiff for the curve, although it is quite a gentle curve. I have prepared 31mm x 2mm thick strips for the lamination
project. But I can thin these down further in my wide belt sander, to 1.6mm which is the thinnest it will do without a carrier, although I¡¯m sure I could play with the manual ¡°cam-action¡± controls and trick the machine in going thinner. As a solid wood guy,
I don¡¯t have a lot of experience with edge laminations, and I¡¯m (irrationally) fearful of going ¡°too thin¡± ¡
?
I totally understand your nailing comment. I¡¯ve become very respectful of the use of nails, especially the plastic nails shot by Omer guns. I do have a 23g pinner and it is indeed nearly invisible. But I just
can¡¯t bring myself to use nails on this build!
?
I¡¯m not sure what you mean by the scoring comment? I¡¯m going to send the uprights through my widebelt sander one more time each side to clean up the width of the lamination and bring it flush to the Zebrano
faces. Is that what you mean? As for the lengths, Zebrano at 2mm is too thick/hard to score easily, hence the thought of using a hand saw, or going the router with backer method suggested by Imran and James. I may have missed your point entirely.
?
I¡¯m excited by this build. Wait until you see what I have planned in terms of ¡°kumiko windows¡± in the uprights, featuring solid copper strip (30mm x 3mm) for the kumiko details. I really need a shaper origin
but failing that I¡¯ll have to outsource to a CNC owner.
?
David B. I think you suggested a flatbed CNC router setup?!!
?
?
Lucky
?
Lucky -?
Forgive if my thoughts are misguided, I might have missed some details of context:
1. If you are cutting the curve in the boards, assuming concave, save the outside waste cut to make a clamping caul for the edgeband to sandwich until glue is set.
2. I have successfully?glued bows in solid edgebanding?by simply flexing across the arc and fastening the ends only.
3. If you can bury a nail or staple without destroying the sancitity?of the build...I feel you squinting at this remark ...? esp if a 23ga pin nailer shooting double toenails will hold, they are practically
invisible.
4. Solid edgeband end trimming success is so species dependent, but I generally prefer scoring outside edge in until bend/break and leaving proud enough to power sand or block sand to contour.
5. This set is going to be awesome finished, already loving the proportions and joints now - great work Lucky.
?
I would make the caul (one side matching the shelf curve and flat on the other side), use the regular clamps. You can make the caul the same length as the shelf's, so you can use the router to trim the lamination.
Power tools with the proper jigs are always my?preference.
?
On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 4:54?PM David Luckensmeyer via
<dhluckens=[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Brian:
?
Apologies, I should have provided more detailed photos.
?
The bookcase uprights in Zebrano are composed of a solid wood core lamination with 3mm thick shop sawn Zebrano veneers on both faces. This is the
material I¡¯ve been machining for the half laps.
?
?
?
If you look closely at the photo below, you can see that I have edge laminated the back side of the uprights with Zebrano veneers, prior to the half
lap machining process. This worked well.
?
?
The problem with the front edge is that it will be curved. I could not machine the curve until the half lap joints were done. This means that the
front edge laminations have to be applied after the machining is done.
?
The horizontal shelves sit out from the uprights by 20mm. In the photo below you can see how the shelves are proud, and you can see the laminated
nature of the uprights.
?
?
My dilemma is how best to apply/trim laminations to the front edge,
between each shelf, on the soon-to-be-curved front edges of the uprights. Gluing will be tedious. I¡¯m thinking of using dozens of clamps like this:
?
?
But how to trim the laminations to length after the glue dries? I guess the flush cut hand saw method is the best one I can think of.
?
Lucky
?
I'm not following the need to laminate the front edges of the uprights? The sides are solid wood, correct? Are you doing
it to cover the slots and make the front surface proud of the shelves by 2mm? Color me confused...
On Sunday, July 14, 2024 at 08:25:22 PM MST, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...>
wrote:
Hi FOG:
?
By way of update, the aforementioned Leitz blade is phenomenal. It cuts as smoothly as any blade I¡¯ve owned which is saying something for such a large blade with relatively narrow
kerf width of 3.5mm. The details appear again here, just in case anyone else wants to consider it as a 400mm blade option: item number 133130, 400mm diameter, 3.5mm kerf. 2.5mm body, 30mm bore, 96 teeth, 10 degree irregular pitch, ATB.
?
This is the first time I¡¯ve used a blade of this size. The dust it throws off is horrendous; I assume it has something to do with making 125mm and 135mm deep cuts. My 3M Dustmaster
is in continuous use.
?
?
This is very fine dust from a couple of hours work at the saw:
?
In the end, the powered rip fence and associated programming has been gold. I¡¯ve used the special programs on the overhead display a lot, including rebating, trenching, etc., but I
must say that I have not really used the specific programming mode for the Kappa 400. It is wonderful.
?
There are 10 program positions, and each of those 10 has 100 spaces to enter specific parameters that can be called up at the press of an arrow key and the start button on the overhead
display. You can imagine its use as follows. For the first half lap joint, I needed a cut at 125mm deep, at 120mm from the end of the Zebrano board. So for P1 (where ¡°P¡± stands for ¡°Program¡±), number 1, I¡¯ve entered 125mm blade height, 0 degrees blade tilt,
and 120mm rip fence position. It works out that I need the fence (which is acting as a bump stop) to move over 16.1mm to give the half lap width I need, so I¡¯ve programmed the number 2 position with 125mm blade height, 0 degrees blade tilt, and 136.1mm rip
fence position for the second cut (i.e. both shoulders of the lap joint). And so forth and so on for all 7 half lap joint positions along the bookcase upright. After 4 cuts, my rip fence is out at about 1150mm. So at this point I have to flip the upright end
for end and start again on the final 3 shelf positions (working from the top of the uprights). This is made easy using the programming on the Kappa 400. Obviously my uprights all need to be dimensioned accurately which I have done.
?
I forgot to say that I could not use special programming function which the Kappa 400 offers, where the rip fence can be programmed for a number of grooves or trenches of a specific
width and depth, at fixed intervals. The reason? Because my shelves are deeper at the bottom and much shallower at the top, so the position of each half lap joint on the uprights is of decreasing distance (from the bottom up) and increasing distance (from
the top down). Programming mode made this process easy. Seems like cheating. Comparing uprights at random, and I¡¯d say the 0.1mm claimed tolerance is verified. I¡¯ve used lots of compressed air between cuts to make sure registrations are accurate, and I¡¯d say
the Kappa 400 has worked as advertised. I strongly recommend a Felder powered rip fence as a wonderful option.
?
Anyway, the 3.5mm blade width allowed for 6 passes to remove the waste for each half-lap joint. No drilling, no knocking out timber, no marking lines, and definitely no chiselling.
I¡¯ve decided I can live with the bumpy but regularly reliable surface in the middle of each half lap joint.
?
?
Last night I assembled the first and smallest of the bookcases. It went together very nicely but I think I¡¯m going to tweak the Walnut shelves (through the wide belt sander) so the
fit is less tight. In the picture below, you¡¯ll see the upper shelves don¡¯t seem the correct width. That¡¯s because the uprights have not been curved yet, to reflect the design where shelves at the bottom are full depth (260mm) while the shelves become less
deep by the top (210mm).
?
l¡¯ll use a template to pattern route the curve after I¡¯m completely satisfied with the joinery. And then another tricky part is headed my way: I have to edge laminate 2mm solid Zebrano
onto the front edges of all the curved uprights. I¡¯ve agonised over this because I could not cut the curves and laminate before machining the joints because I needed parallel edges. Adding the solid wood lamination to the edge after the machining is going
to be time consuming and I¡¯m not sure how best to do it. I could apply over long sections to each curved edge (between shelves) and then flush them, but how?
?
-
Router (risk of splinters)
-
Chisel (not looking forward to that)
-
Flush cut hand saw (might be the best option)
-
Cut the lamination exactly to length and glue it exactly in position¡
?
If I used the flush cut handsaw, I could use overlength Zebrano pieces (but maintaining continuous grain) and then not stress the clamping process. I guess after that many cuts (224
to be precise) I¡¯ll be pretty good with the flush cut saw? Thanks for your brainstorming thoughts!
?
?
?
Lucky
?
Hi David B and Michael:
?
Funny you should mention the flatbed CNC. Although not the same, I have been pondering how much use I¡¯d get out of a Shaper Origin. That tool would fit nicely somewhere in my shop!
?
Thanks David for your vote on the vertical method. I think the clean corners are swaying me strongly for that option. I¡¯ve wondered if I make a very accurate registration jig and use
a small pattern bit (I can get an 8mm dia. bit from across town) to establish the majority of the 20mm flat across the joint, then there would be very little chisel work at all:
?
¡¤????????
corners squared by the saw blade
¡¤????????
majority of waste drilled out
¡¤????????
shoulder established by the pattern bit
¡¤????????
minor chisel work to finish.
?
Your jig making has always been a source of inspiration for me. Your lock mitre jig is especially egregious! I absolutely love it. Of course, now I know I should have made a much larger
vertical jig that does not depend on the crosscut fence for registration. Something like what you¡¯ve done would have been much better. Cheers.
?
Lucky
?
I actually like your original concept of using the rip as a bump-stop, a 400mm blade cutting both edges, and a jig on the crosscut fence to hold the material vertically.? Here¡¯s a couple more jig I¡¯ve
made to stimulate your thinking.? I could quibble over the actual jig configuration (hence these photos of jigs I¡¯ve made to hold vertical materials on the slider as food for thought).
This is for cutting lock miter joints:?
 ??
This one is for finger joints - which is a shallower type of thing you are doing:
?
?
On Jul 9, 2024, at 3:18?PM, David Luckensmeyer via
<dhluckens=[email protected]> wrote:
?
Oh wow! The video came through. I love it. No one would even think the drawer is there! Thanks for sharing.
?
Lucky
?
Lucky, as I further thought about my suggestion I realized it was lunacy. I think you are correct about returning to the horizontal setup. I know we are talking about a lot of work for 280 repititions!?
I had a few do overs and re-designs as I progressed but ultimately was very happy with the result.?
To answer?your question, it is a drawer that holds DVD¡¯s on the bottom level, and Blu-rays on the top level as they are both different size cases. The drawer was incorporated into a raised panel staircase
I built 30 years earlier and had always planned to make a drawer similar.
There is hopefully an attached video below showing final install??
The CMT was excellent; best dado I ever had but I ran it on a cabinet saw, not on my K700S. I used a simple ¡°box joint jig¡± that we all learned in woodworking 101 but made a mistake thinking I could
do the sides separately and still have things line up. A couple of tries changing methodology were necessary. The drawer empty without the drawer front was over 75 lbs made of Maple. I used Blum slides (Blumotion) with ?¡°Tip-on¡± added for push to open tech
to eliminate visible exterior hardware.
?
On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 5:41?PM David Luckensmeyer via
<dhluckens=[email protected]> wrote:
Imran:
?
Thanks for your ideas. You¡¯re correct about the slotting blade. If I go the vertical machining route I¡¯ll need nearly every bit of the 400mm blade¡¯s depth of cut. If I were to go back
to the horizontal setup, I could remount the dado blade, set it to maximum height, and make a partial cut. This may well be a better solution because it gives me the exact width (to match the existing shallower trenches).
?
You have rightly identified the time-wasting point of needing to take two passes (minimum) and then deal with the waste by drilling a hole with a forstner bit to get rid of the septum.
I would then have to mark and chisel the waste which is fine for 1-10 joints, but not 280 trenches¡
?
Brian:
?
That looks awesome what you¡¯ve made. Is it a drawer insert for plates? I¡¯m very curious what you thought of the new CMT dado stack? What did you like? What didn¡¯t you like? Thanks
for sharing. I¡¯d rather not run two 400mm blades on the slider. So much to go wrong! EEK.
?
Joe:
?
Love those jigs. Pictures speak volumes. So many ideas to learn from. Thank you.
?
Methodology Quiz
How would you make 280 non-through cuts that have to be precisely machined at 125mm deep and 20mm wide?
?
-
Vertical method as discussed to date using the 400mm sawblade, to make two cuts to establish each shoulder, drilling out the waste, and then A) mark a line and use a chisel to square up the joint,
or B) use a router and small pattern bit to establish the shoulder and then chisel out the corners.
?
-
Horizontal method using the same dado stack that machined the shallow trenches, dado raised all the way up for the stopped cut, and then employ either option A or B above to clean up the joint.
?
-
Rely on the existing shoulders of the trenches (5mm deep on both sides), and use a router and pattern bit to obtain the 125mm ¡°half lap¡± joint, and then square up the joint using option A or B above.
?
-
Something else?
?
I personally can¡¯t see a way to avoid handwork of some kind. The reason why I favour the vertical method (as I¡¯m calling it) is because I can get precise and square internal corners
for the stopped cuts. I find it much easier to clean out the waste if the corners are already established. I have never liked chiselling corners square, even with a square chisel (e.g. Veritas). And I would
hate chiselling 560 corners!
?
Thanks in advance for your input,
Lucky
?
I have another more stable jig for demonstrating tenoning on the slider that could be adapted for this also.
?
--
Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd)
St Louis, MO 63110
314.772.2167
brett@...
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
|
Re: Sliding Table ¡°90 Degree Jig¡±
#sawsetup
Hi Brett:
?
Thanks so much for the encouragement. I appreciate your thoughts ¨C and I don¡¯t think you¡¯ve missed anything. The power of brainstorming is such that even if multiple ideas end up getting dismissed, there is
no telling what new ideas or solutions arise from those initial ones.
?
For example, I had never thought about the success of edge banding by fastening just the ends. I can picture how that would work but I¡¯d be so fearful that the glue line might not be ¡°perfect¡± along the arc.
But this raises another question: what thickness of edge lamination would you use? The face laminations are 3mm, but I find this a bit too stiff for the curve, although it is quite a gentle curve. I have prepared 31mm x 2mm thick strips for the lamination
project. But I can thin these down further in my wide belt sander, to 1.6mm which is the thinnest it will do without a carrier, although I¡¯m sure I could play with the manual ¡°cam-action¡± controls and trick the machine in going thinner. As a solid wood guy,
I don¡¯t have a lot of experience with edge laminations, and I¡¯m (irrationally) fearful of going ¡°too thin¡± ¡
?
I totally understand your nailing comment. I¡¯ve become very respectful of the use of nails, especially the plastic nails shot by Omer guns. I do have a 23g pinner and it is indeed nearly invisible. But I just
can¡¯t bring myself to use nails on this build!
?
I¡¯m not sure what you mean by the scoring comment? I¡¯m going to send the uprights through my widebelt sander one more time each side to clean up the width of the lamination and bring it flush to the Zebrano
faces. Is that what you mean? As for the lengths, Zebrano at 2mm is too thick/hard to score easily, hence the thought of using a hand saw, or going the router with backer method suggested by Imran and James. I may have missed your point entirely.
?
I¡¯m excited by this build. Wait until you see what I have planned in terms of ¡°kumiko windows¡± in the uprights, featuring solid copper strip (30mm x 3mm) for the kumiko details. I really need a shaper origin
but failing that I¡¯ll have to outsource to a CNC owner.
?
David B. I think you suggested a flatbed CNC router setup?!!
?
?
Lucky
?
Lucky -?
Forgive if my thoughts are misguided, I might have missed some details of context:
1. If you are cutting the curve in the boards, assuming concave, save the outside waste cut to make a clamping caul for the edgeband to sandwich until glue is set.
2. I have successfully?glued bows in solid edgebanding?by simply flexing across the arc and fastening the ends only.
3. If you can bury a nail or staple without destroying the sancitity?of the build...I feel you squinting at this remark ...? esp if a 23ga pin nailer shooting double toenails will hold, they are practically
invisible.
4. Solid edgeband end trimming success is so species dependent, but I generally prefer scoring outside edge in until bend/break and leaving proud enough to power sand or block sand to contour.
5. This set is going to be awesome finished, already loving the proportions and joints now - great work Lucky.
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 4:19?PM James Zhu via
<james.zhu2=[email protected]> wrote:
I would make the caul (one side matching the shelf curve and flat on the other side), use the regular clamps. You can make the caul the same length as the shelf's, so you can use the router to trim the lamination.
Power tools with the proper jigs are always my?preference.
?
On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 4:54?PM David Luckensmeyer via
<dhluckens=[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Brian:
?
Apologies, I should have provided more detailed photos.
?
The bookcase uprights in Zebrano are composed of a solid wood core lamination with 3mm thick shop sawn Zebrano veneers on both faces. This is the
material I¡¯ve been machining for the half laps.
?
?
?
If you look closely at the photo below, you can see that I have edge laminated the back side of the uprights with Zebrano veneers, prior to the half
lap machining process. This worked well.
?
?
The problem with the front edge is that it will be curved. I could not machine the curve until the half lap joints were done. This means that the
front edge laminations have to be applied after the machining is done.
?
The horizontal shelves sit out from the uprights by 20mm. In the photo below you can see how the shelves are proud, and you can see the laminated
nature of the uprights.
?
?
My dilemma is how best to apply/trim laminations to the front edge,
between each shelf, on the soon-to-be-curved front edges of the uprights. Gluing will be tedious. I¡¯m thinking of using dozens of clamps like this:
?
?
But how to trim the laminations to length after the glue dries? I guess the flush cut hand saw method is the best one I can think of.
?
Lucky
?
I'm not following the need to laminate the front edges of the uprights? The sides are solid wood, correct? Are you doing
it to cover the slots and make the front surface proud of the shelves by 2mm? Color me confused...
On Sunday, July 14, 2024 at 08:25:22 PM MST, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...>
wrote:
Hi FOG:
?
By way of update, the aforementioned Leitz blade is phenomenal. It cuts as smoothly as any blade I¡¯ve owned which is saying something for such a large blade with relatively narrow
kerf width of 3.5mm. The details appear again here, just in case anyone else wants to consider it as a 400mm blade option: item number 133130, 400mm diameter, 3.5mm kerf. 2.5mm body, 30mm bore, 96 teeth, 10 degree irregular pitch, ATB.
?
This is the first time I¡¯ve used a blade of this size. The dust it throws off is horrendous; I assume it has something to do with making 125mm and 135mm deep cuts. My 3M Dustmaster
is in continuous use.
?
?
This is very fine dust from a couple of hours work at the saw:
?
In the end, the powered rip fence and associated programming has been gold. I¡¯ve used the special programs on the overhead display a lot, including rebating, trenching, etc., but I
must say that I have not really used the specific programming mode for the Kappa 400. It is wonderful.
?
There are 10 program positions, and each of those 10 has 100 spaces to enter specific parameters that can be called up at the press of an arrow key and the start button on the overhead
display. You can imagine its use as follows. For the first half lap joint, I needed a cut at 125mm deep, at 120mm from the end of the Zebrano board. So for P1 (where ¡°P¡± stands for ¡°Program¡±), number 1, I¡¯ve entered 125mm blade height, 0 degrees blade tilt,
and 120mm rip fence position. It works out that I need the fence (which is acting as a bump stop) to move over 16.1mm to give the half lap width I need, so I¡¯ve programmed the number 2 position with 125mm blade height, 0 degrees blade tilt, and 136.1mm rip
fence position for the second cut (i.e. both shoulders of the lap joint). And so forth and so on for all 7 half lap joint positions along the bookcase upright. After 4 cuts, my rip fence is out at about 1150mm. So at this point I have to flip the upright end
for end and start again on the final 3 shelf positions (working from the top of the uprights). This is made easy using the programming on the Kappa 400. Obviously my uprights all need to be dimensioned accurately which I have done.
?
I forgot to say that I could not use special programming function which the Kappa 400 offers, where the rip fence can be programmed for a number of grooves or trenches of a specific
width and depth, at fixed intervals. The reason? Because my shelves are deeper at the bottom and much shallower at the top, so the position of each half lap joint on the uprights is of decreasing distance (from the bottom up) and increasing distance (from
the top down). Programming mode made this process easy. Seems like cheating. Comparing uprights at random, and I¡¯d say the 0.1mm claimed tolerance is verified. I¡¯ve used lots of compressed air between cuts to make sure registrations are accurate, and I¡¯d say
the Kappa 400 has worked as advertised. I strongly recommend a Felder powered rip fence as a wonderful option.
?
Anyway, the 3.5mm blade width allowed for 6 passes to remove the waste for each half-lap joint. No drilling, no knocking out timber, no marking lines, and definitely no chiselling.
I¡¯ve decided I can live with the bumpy but regularly reliable surface in the middle of each half lap joint.
?
?
Last night I assembled the first and smallest of the bookcases. It went together very nicely but I think I¡¯m going to tweak the Walnut shelves (through the wide belt sander) so the
fit is less tight. In the picture below, you¡¯ll see the upper shelves don¡¯t seem the correct width. That¡¯s because the uprights have not been curved yet, to reflect the design where shelves at the bottom are full depth (260mm) while the shelves become less
deep by the top (210mm).
?
l¡¯ll use a template to pattern route the curve after I¡¯m completely satisfied with the joinery. And then another tricky part is headed my way: I have to edge laminate 2mm solid Zebrano
onto the front edges of all the curved uprights. I¡¯ve agonised over this because I could not cut the curves and laminate before machining the joints because I needed parallel edges. Adding the solid wood lamination to the edge after the machining is going
to be time consuming and I¡¯m not sure how best to do it. I could apply over long sections to each curved edge (between shelves) and then flush them, but how?
?
-
Router (risk of splinters)
-
Chisel (not looking forward to that)
-
Flush cut hand saw (might be the best option)
-
Cut the lamination exactly to length and glue it exactly in position¡
?
If I used the flush cut handsaw, I could use overlength Zebrano pieces (but maintaining continuous grain) and then not stress the clamping process. I guess after that many cuts (224
to be precise) I¡¯ll be pretty good with the flush cut saw? Thanks for your brainstorming thoughts!
?
?
?
Lucky
?
Hi David B and Michael:
?
Funny you should mention the flatbed CNC. Although not the same, I have been pondering how much use I¡¯d get out of a Shaper Origin. That tool would fit nicely somewhere in my shop!
?
Thanks David for your vote on the vertical method. I think the clean corners are swaying me strongly for that option. I¡¯ve wondered if I make a very accurate registration jig and use
a small pattern bit (I can get an 8mm dia. bit from across town) to establish the majority of the 20mm flat across the joint, then there would be very little chisel work at all:
?
¡¤????????
corners squared by the saw blade
¡¤????????
majority of waste drilled out
¡¤????????
shoulder established by the pattern bit
¡¤????????
minor chisel work to finish.
?
Your jig making has always been a source of inspiration for me. Your lock mitre jig is especially egregious! I absolutely love it. Of course, now I know I should have made a much larger
vertical jig that does not depend on the crosscut fence for registration. Something like what you¡¯ve done would have been much better. Cheers.
?
Lucky
?
I actually like your original concept of using the rip as a bump-stop, a 400mm blade cutting both edges, and a jig on the crosscut fence to hold the material vertically. ?Here¡¯s a couple more jig I¡¯ve
made to stimulate your thinking.? I could quibble over the actual jig configuration (hence these photos of jigs I¡¯ve made to hold vertical materials on the slider as food for thought).
This is for cutting lock miter joints:?
 ??
This one is for finger joints - which is a shallower type of thing you are doing:
?
?
On Jul 9, 2024, at 3:18?PM, David Luckensmeyer via
<dhluckens=[email protected]> wrote:
?
Oh wow! The video came through. I love it. No one would even think the drawer is there! Thanks for sharing.
?
Lucky
?
Lucky, as I further thought about my suggestion I realized it was lunacy. I think you are correct about returning to the horizontal setup. I know we are talking about a lot of work for 280 repititions!?
I had a few do overs and re-designs as I progressed but ultimately was very happy with the result.?
To answer?your question, it is a drawer that holds DVD¡¯s on the bottom level, and Blu-rays on the top level as they are both different size cases. The drawer was incorporated into a raised panel staircase
I built 30 years earlier and had always planned to make a drawer similar.
There is hopefully an attached video below showing final install??
The CMT was excellent; best dado I ever had but I ran it on a cabinet saw, not on my K700S. I used a simple ¡°box joint jig¡± that we all learned in woodworking 101 but made a mistake thinking I could
do the sides separately and still have things line up. A couple of tries changing methodology were necessary. The drawer empty without the drawer front was over 75 lbs made of Maple. I used Blum slides (Blumotion) with ?¡°Tip-on¡± added for push to open tech
to eliminate visible exterior hardware.
?
On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 5:41?PM David Luckensmeyer via
<dhluckens=[email protected]> wrote:
Imran:
?
Thanks for your ideas. You¡¯re correct about the slotting blade. If I go the vertical machining route I¡¯ll need nearly every bit of the 400mm blade¡¯s depth of cut. If I were to go back
to the horizontal setup, I could remount the dado blade, set it to maximum height, and make a partial cut. This may well be a better solution because it gives me the exact width (to match the existing shallower trenches).
?
You have rightly identified the time-wasting point of needing to take two passes (minimum) and then deal with the waste by drilling a hole with a forstner bit to get rid of the septum.
I would then have to mark and chisel the waste which is fine for 1-10 joints, but not 280 trenches¡
?
Brian:
?
That looks awesome what you¡¯ve made. Is it a drawer insert for plates? I¡¯m very curious what you thought of the new CMT dado stack? What did you like? What didn¡¯t you like? Thanks
for sharing. I¡¯d rather not run two 400mm blades on the slider. So much to go wrong! EEK.
?
Joe:
?
Love those jigs. Pictures speak volumes. So many ideas to learn from. Thank you.
?
Methodology Quiz
How would you make 280 non-through cuts that have to be precisely machined at 125mm deep and 20mm wide?
?
-
Vertical method as discussed to date using the 400mm sawblade, to make two cuts to establish each shoulder, drilling out the waste, and then A) mark a line and use a chisel to square up the joint,
or B) use a router and small pattern bit to establish the shoulder and then chisel out the corners.
?
-
Horizontal method using the same dado stack that machined the shallow trenches, dado raised all the way up for the stopped cut, and then employ either option A or B above to clean up the joint.
?
-
Rely on the existing shoulders of the trenches (5mm deep on both sides), and use a router and pattern bit to obtain the 125mm ¡°half lap¡± joint, and then square up the joint using option A or B above.
?
-
Something else?
?
I personally can¡¯t see a way to avoid handwork of some kind. The reason why I favour the vertical method (as I¡¯m calling it) is because I can get precise and square internal corners
for the stopped cuts. I find it much easier to clean out the waste if the corners are already established. I have never liked chiselling corners square, even with a square chisel (e.g. Veritas). And I would
hate chiselling 560 corners!
?
Thanks in advance for your input,
Lucky
?
I have another more stable jig for demonstrating tenoning on the slider that could be adapted for this also.
?
--
Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd)
St Louis, MO 63110
314.772.2167
brett@...
|
Re: Sliding Table ¡°90 Degree Jig¡±
#sawsetup
Lucky -?
Forgive if my thoughts are misguided, I might have missed some details of context:
1. If you are cutting the curve in the boards, assuming concave, save the outside waste cut to make a clamping caul for the edgeband to sandwich until glue is set.
2. I have successfully?glued bows in solid edgebanding?by simply flexing across the arc and fastening the ends only.
3. If you can bury a nail or staple without destroying the sancitity?of the build...I feel you squinting at this remark ...? esp if a 23ga pin nailer shooting double toenails will hold, they are practically invisible.
4. Solid edgeband end trimming success is so species dependent, but I generally prefer scoring outside edge in until bend/break and leaving proud enough to power sand or block sand to contour.
5. This set is going to be awesome finished, already loving the proportions and joints now - great work Lucky.
I would make the caul (one side matching the shelf curve and flat on the other side), use the regular clamps. You can make the caul the same length as the shelf's, so you can use the router to trim the lamination. Power tools with the proper jigs are always my?preference.
James?
On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 4:54?PM David Luckensmeyer via <dhluckens= [email protected]> wrote:
Hi Brian:
?
Apologies, I should have provided more detailed photos.
?
The bookcase uprights in Zebrano are composed of a solid wood core lamination with 3mm thick shop sawn Zebrano veneers on both faces. This is the material I¡¯ve been machining for the half laps.
?
?
?
If you look closely at the photo below, you can see that I have edge laminated the back side of the uprights with Zebrano veneers, prior to the half lap machining process. This worked well.
?
?
The problem with the front edge is that it will be curved. I could not machine the curve until the half lap joints were done. This means that the front edge laminations have to be applied
after the machining is done.
?
The horizontal shelves sit out from the uprights by 20mm. In the photo below you can see how the shelves are proud, and you can see the laminated nature of the uprights.
?
?
My dilemma is how best to apply/trim laminations to the front edge,
between each shelf, on the soon-to-be-curved front edges of the uprights. Gluing will be tedious. I¡¯m thinking of using dozens of clamps like this:
?
?
But how to trim the laminations to length after the glue dries? I guess the flush cut hand saw method is the best one I can think of.
?
Lucky
?
I'm not following the need to laminate the front edges of the uprights? The sides are solid wood, correct? Are you doing it to cover the slots and make the front surface proud of the shelves by
2mm? Color me confused...
On Sunday, July 14, 2024 at 08:25:22 PM MST, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
Hi FOG:
?
By way of update, the aforementioned Leitz blade is phenomenal. It cuts as smoothly as any blade I¡¯ve owned which is saying something for such a large
blade with relatively narrow kerf width of 3.5mm. The details appear again here, just in case anyone else wants to consider it as a 400mm blade option: item number 133130, 400mm diameter, 3.5mm kerf. 2.5mm body, 30mm bore, 96 teeth, 10 degree irregular pitch,
ATB.
?
This is the first time I¡¯ve used a blade of this size. The dust it throws off is horrendous; I assume it has something to do with making 125mm and 135mm
deep cuts. My 3M Dustmaster is in continuous use.
?
?
This is very fine dust from a couple of hours work at the saw:
?
In the end, the powered rip fence and associated programming has been gold. I¡¯ve used the special programs on the overhead display a lot, including rebating,
trenching, etc., but I must say that I have not really used the specific programming mode for the Kappa 400. It is wonderful.
?
There are 10 program positions, and each of those 10 has 100 spaces to enter specific parameters that can be called up at the press of an arrow key and
the start button on the overhead display. You can imagine its use as follows. For the first half lap joint, I needed a cut at 125mm deep, at 120mm from the end of the Zebrano board. So for P1 (where ¡°P¡± stands for ¡°Program¡±), number 1, I¡¯ve entered 125mm blade
height, 0 degrees blade tilt, and 120mm rip fence position. It works out that I need the fence (which is acting as a bump stop) to move over 16.1mm to give the half lap width I need, so I¡¯ve programmed the number 2 position with 125mm blade height, 0 degrees
blade tilt, and 136.1mm rip fence position for the second cut (i.e. both shoulders of the lap joint). And so forth and so on for all 7 half lap joint positions along the bookcase upright. After 4 cuts, my rip fence is out at about 1150mm. So at this point
I have to flip the upright end for end and start again on the final 3 shelf positions (working from the top of the uprights). This is made easy using the programming on the Kappa 400. Obviously my uprights all need to be dimensioned accurately which I have
done.
?
I forgot to say that I could not use special programming function which the Kappa 400 offers, where the rip fence can be programmed for a number of grooves
or trenches of a specific width and depth, at fixed intervals. The reason? Because my shelves are deeper at the bottom and much shallower at the top, so the position of each half lap joint on the uprights is of decreasing distance (from the bottom up) and
increasing distance (from the top down). Programming mode made this process easy. Seems like cheating. Comparing uprights at random, and I¡¯d say the 0.1mm claimed tolerance is verified. I¡¯ve used lots of compressed air between cuts to make sure registrations
are accurate, and I¡¯d say the Kappa 400 has worked as advertised. I strongly recommend a Felder powered rip fence as a wonderful option.
?
Anyway, the 3.5mm blade width allowed for 6 passes to remove the waste for each half-lap joint. No drilling, no knocking out timber, no marking lines,
and definitely no chiselling. I¡¯ve decided I can live with the bumpy but regularly reliable surface in the middle of each half lap joint.
?
?
Last night I assembled the first and smallest of the bookcases. It went together very nicely but I think I¡¯m going to tweak the Walnut shelves (through
the wide belt sander) so the fit is less tight. In the picture below, you¡¯ll see the upper shelves don¡¯t seem the correct width. That¡¯s because the uprights have not been curved yet, to reflect the design where shelves at the bottom are full depth (260mm)
while the shelves become less deep by the top (210mm).
?
l¡¯ll use a template to pattern route the curve after I¡¯m completely satisfied with the joinery. And then another tricky part is headed my way: I have
to edge laminate 2mm solid Zebrano onto the front edges of all the curved uprights. I¡¯ve agonised over this because I could not cut the curves and laminate before machining the joints because I needed parallel edges. Adding the solid wood lamination to the
edge after the machining is going to be time consuming and I¡¯m not sure how best to do it. I could apply over long sections to each curved edge (between shelves) and then flush them, but how?
?
-
Router (risk of splinters)
-
Chisel (not looking forward to that)
-
Flush cut hand saw (might be the best option)
-
Cut the lamination exactly to length and glue it exactly in position¡
?
If I used the flush cut handsaw, I could use overlength Zebrano pieces (but maintaining continuous grain) and then not stress the clamping process. I
guess after that many cuts (224 to be precise) I¡¯ll be pretty good with the flush cut saw? Thanks for your brainstorming thoughts!
?
?
?
Lucky
?
Hi David B and Michael:
?
Funny you should mention the flatbed CNC. Although not the same, I have been pondering how much use I¡¯d get out of a Shaper Origin. That tool would fit
nicely somewhere in my shop!
?
Thanks David for your vote on the vertical method. I think the clean corners are swaying me strongly for that option. I¡¯ve wondered if I make a very
accurate registration jig and use a small pattern bit (I can get an 8mm dia. bit from across town) to establish the majority of the 20mm flat across the joint, then there would be very little chisel work at all:
?
¡¤????????
corners squared by the saw blade
¡¤????????
majority of waste drilled out
¡¤????????
shoulder established by the pattern bit
¡¤????????
minor chisel work to finish.
?
Your jig making has always been a source of inspiration for me. Your lock mitre jig is especially egregious! I absolutely love it. Of course, now I know
I should have made a much larger vertical jig that does not depend on the crosscut fence for registration. Something like what you¡¯ve done would have been much better. Cheers.
?
Lucky
?
I actually like your original concept of using the rip as a bump-stop, a 400mm blade cutting both edges, and a jig on the crosscut fence to hold the material vertically.
?Here¡¯s a couple more jig I¡¯ve made to stimulate your thinking.? I could quibble over the actual jig configuration (hence these photos of jigs I¡¯ve made to hold vertical materials on the slider as food for thought).
This is for cutting lock miter joints:?
 ??
This one is for finger joints - which is a shallower type of thing you are doing:
?
?
On Jul 9, 2024, at 3:18?PM, David Luckensmeyer
via <dhluckens=[email protected]> wrote:
?
Oh wow! The video came through. I love it. No one would even think the drawer is there! Thanks for sharing.
?
Lucky
?
Lucky, as I further thought about my suggestion I realized it was lunacy. I think you are correct about returning to the horizontal setup. I know we are talking about
a lot of work for 280 repititions!?
I had a few do overs and re-designs as I progressed but ultimately was very happy with the result.?
To answer?your question, it is a drawer that holds DVD¡¯s on the bottom level, and Blu-rays on the top level as they are both different size cases. The drawer was incorporated
into a raised panel staircase I built 30 years earlier and had always planned to make a drawer similar.
There is hopefully an attached video below showing final install??
The CMT was excellent; best dado I ever had but I ran it on a cabinet saw, not on my K700S. I used a simple ¡°box joint jig¡± that we all learned in woodworking 101 but
made a mistake thinking I could do the sides separately and still have things line up. A couple of tries changing methodology were necessary. The drawer empty without the drawer front was over 75 lbs made of Maple. I used Blum slides (Blumotion) with ?¡°Tip-on¡±
added for push to open tech to eliminate visible exterior hardware.
?
On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 5:41?PM David
Luckensmeyer via <dhluckens=[email protected]> wrote:
Imran:
?
Thanks for your ideas. You¡¯re correct about the slotting blade. If I go the vertical machining route I¡¯ll need nearly every bit of the 400mm blade¡¯s
depth of cut. If I were to go back to the horizontal setup, I could remount the dado blade, set it to maximum height, and make a partial cut. This may well be a better solution because it gives me the exact width (to match the existing shallower trenches).
?
You have rightly identified the time-wasting point of needing to take two passes (minimum) and then deal with the waste by drilling a hole with a forstner
bit to get rid of the septum. I would then have to mark and chisel the waste which is fine for 1-10 joints, but not 280 trenches¡
?
Brian:
?
That looks awesome what you¡¯ve made. Is it a drawer insert for plates? I¡¯m very curious what you thought of the new CMT dado stack? What did you like?
What didn¡¯t you like? Thanks for sharing. I¡¯d rather not run two 400mm blades on the slider. So much to go wrong! EEK.
?
Joe:
?
Love those jigs. Pictures speak volumes. So many ideas to learn from. Thank you.
?
Methodology Quiz
How would you make 280 non-through cuts that have to be precisely machined at 125mm deep and 20mm wide?
?
-
Vertical method as discussed to date using the 400mm sawblade, to make two cuts to establish each shoulder, drilling out the waste, and then A) mark a line and use a chisel to square up the joint,
or B) use a router and small pattern bit to establish the shoulder and then chisel out the corners.
?
-
Horizontal method using the same dado stack that machined the shallow trenches, dado raised all the way up for the stopped cut, and then employ either option A or B above to clean up the joint.
?
-
Rely on the existing shoulders of the trenches (5mm deep on both sides), and use a router and pattern bit to obtain the 125mm ¡°half lap¡± joint, and then square up the joint using option A or B above.
?
-
Something else?
?
I personally can¡¯t see a way to avoid handwork of some kind. The reason why I favour the vertical method (as I¡¯m calling it) is because I can get precise
and square internal corners for the stopped cuts. I find it much easier to clean out the waste if the corners are already established. I have never liked chiselling corners square, even with a square chisel (e.g. Veritas). And I would
hate chiselling 560 corners!
?
Thanks in advance for your input,
Lucky
?
I have another more stable jig for demonstrating tenoning on the slider that could be adapted for this also.
?
-- Brett Wissel Saint Louis Restoration 1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd) St Louis, MO 63110 314.772.2167 brett@...
|
Re: Sliding Table ¡°90 Degree Jig¡±
#sawsetup
Michael:
Thanks for your clamp alternatives. I had not thought of the band clamps. I have heaps of those. Cheers.
?
Imran:
A backing piece is a good idea. Zebrano splinters quite nicely (unfortunately), maybe like white oak, but not as bad as Wenge. So care is definitely needed. Thanks for your ideas.
?
James:
The caul idea is one I had considered only briefly as I was hoping to avoid the effort of making one or more. That said, it would allow me to position all 8 pieces of lamination at the one time and then use
a reasonable number of clamps (band, bar, f-style, whatever), as the caul could be full length (just under 2200mm long).
?
Your idea of making multiple cauls to match the curve of each section and then use the caul as the backing board for routing to length ¡ that combines the clamping and trimming ideas. I would need to make
a bunch of separate cauls because the curve is irregular (progressive) and the intervals between each shelf is different. But it may be worth the effort because there are 16 uprights and 128 pieces of veneer to glue and trim (either end).
?
Thanks a lot for your input.
?
?
I would make the caul (one side matching the shelf curve and flat on the other side), use the regular clamps. You can make the caul the same length as the shelf's, so you can use the router to trim the lamination.
Power tools with the proper jigs are always my?preference.
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 4:54?PM David Luckensmeyer via
<dhluckens=[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Brian:
?
Apologies, I should have provided more detailed photos.
?
The bookcase uprights in Zebrano are composed of a solid wood core lamination with 3mm thick shop sawn Zebrano veneers on both faces. This is the
material I¡¯ve been machining for the half laps.
?
?
?
If you look closely at the photo below, you can see that I have edge laminated the back side of the uprights with Zebrano veneers, prior to the half
lap machining process. This worked well.
?
?
The problem with the front edge is that it will be curved. I could not machine the curve until the half lap joints were done. This means that the
front edge laminations have to be applied after the machining is done.
?
The horizontal shelves sit out from the uprights by 20mm. In the photo below you can see how the shelves are proud, and you can see the laminated
nature of the uprights.
?
?
My dilemma is how best to apply/trim laminations to the front edge,
between each shelf, on the soon-to-be-curved front edges of the uprights. Gluing will be tedious. I¡¯m thinking of using dozens of clamps like this:
?
?
But how to trim the laminations to length after the glue dries? I guess the flush cut hand saw method is the best one I can think of.
?
Lucky
?
I'm not following the need to laminate the front edges of the uprights? The sides are solid wood, correct? Are you doing
it to cover the slots and make the front surface proud of the shelves by 2mm? Color me confused...
On Sunday, July 14, 2024 at 08:25:22 PM MST, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...>
wrote:
Hi FOG:
?
By way of update, the aforementioned Leitz blade is phenomenal. It cuts as smoothly as any blade I¡¯ve owned which is saying something
for such a large blade with relatively narrow kerf width of 3.5mm. The details appear again here, just in case anyone else wants to consider it as a 400mm blade option: item number 133130, 400mm diameter, 3.5mm kerf. 2.5mm body, 30mm bore, 96 teeth, 10 degree
irregular pitch, ATB.
?
This is the first time I¡¯ve used a blade of this size. The dust it throws off is horrendous; I assume it has something to do with
making 125mm and 135mm deep cuts. My 3M Dustmaster is in continuous use.
?
?
This is very fine dust from a couple of hours work at the saw:
?
In the end, the powered rip fence and associated programming has been gold. I¡¯ve used the special programs on the overhead display
a lot, including rebating, trenching, etc., but I must say that I have not really used the specific programming mode for the Kappa 400. It is wonderful.
?
There are 10 program positions, and each of those 10 has 100 spaces to enter specific parameters that can be called up at the press
of an arrow key and the start button on the overhead display. You can imagine its use as follows. For the first half lap joint, I needed a cut at 125mm deep, at 120mm from the end of the Zebrano board. So for P1 (where ¡°P¡± stands for ¡°Program¡±), number 1,
I¡¯ve entered 125mm blade height, 0 degrees blade tilt, and 120mm rip fence position. It works out that I need the fence (which is acting as a bump stop) to move over 16.1mm to give the half lap width I need, so I¡¯ve programmed the number 2 position with 125mm
blade height, 0 degrees blade tilt, and 136.1mm rip fence position for the second cut (i.e. both shoulders of the lap joint). And so forth and so on for all 7 half lap joint positions along the bookcase upright. After 4 cuts, my rip fence is out at about 1150mm.
So at this point I have to flip the upright end for end and start again on the final 3 shelf positions (working from the top of the uprights). This is made easy using the programming on the Kappa 400. Obviously my uprights all need to be dimensioned accurately
which I have done.
?
I forgot to say that I could not use special programming function which the Kappa 400 offers, where the rip fence can be programmed
for a number of grooves or trenches of a specific width and depth, at fixed intervals. The reason? Because my shelves are deeper at the bottom and much shallower at the top, so the position of each half lap joint on the uprights is of decreasing distance (from
the bottom up) and increasing distance (from the top down). Programming mode made this process easy. Seems like cheating. Comparing uprights at random, and I¡¯d say the 0.1mm claimed tolerance is verified. I¡¯ve used lots of compressed air between cuts to make
sure registrations are accurate, and I¡¯d say the Kappa 400 has worked as advertised. I strongly recommend a Felder powered rip fence as a wonderful option.
?
Anyway, the 3.5mm blade width allowed for 6 passes to remove the waste for each half-lap joint. No drilling, no knocking out timber,
no marking lines, and definitely no chiselling. I¡¯ve decided I can live with the bumpy but regularly reliable surface in the middle of each half lap joint.
?
?
Last night I assembled the first and smallest of the bookcases. It went together very nicely but I think I¡¯m going to tweak the Walnut
shelves (through the wide belt sander) so the fit is less tight. In the picture below, you¡¯ll see the upper shelves don¡¯t seem the correct width. That¡¯s because the uprights have not been curved yet, to reflect the design where shelves at the bottom are full
depth (260mm) while the shelves become less deep by the top (210mm).
?
l¡¯ll use a template to pattern route the curve after I¡¯m completely satisfied with the joinery. And then another tricky part is headed
my way: I have to edge laminate 2mm solid Zebrano onto the front edges of all the curved uprights. I¡¯ve agonised over this because I could not cut the curves and laminate before machining the joints because I needed parallel edges. Adding the solid wood lamination
to the edge after the machining is going to be time consuming and I¡¯m not sure how best to do it. I could apply over long sections to each curved edge (between shelves) and then flush them, but how?
?
-
Router (risk of splinters)
-
Chisel (not looking forward to that)
-
Flush cut hand saw (might be the best option)
-
Cut the lamination exactly to length and glue it exactly in position¡
?
If I used the flush cut handsaw, I could use overlength Zebrano pieces (but maintaining continuous grain) and then not stress the
clamping process. I guess after that many cuts (224 to be precise) I¡¯ll be pretty good with the flush cut saw? Thanks for your brainstorming thoughts!
?
?
?
Lucky
?
Hi David B and Michael:
?
Funny you should mention the flatbed CNC. Although not the same, I have been pondering how much use I¡¯d get out of a Shaper Origin.
That tool would fit nicely somewhere in my shop!
?
Thanks David for your vote on the vertical method. I think the clean corners are swaying me strongly for that option. I¡¯ve wondered
if I make a very accurate registration jig and use a small pattern bit (I can get an 8mm dia. bit from across town) to establish the majority of the 20mm flat across the joint, then there would be very little chisel work at all:
?
¡¤????????
corners squared by the saw blade
¡¤????????
majority of waste drilled out
¡¤????????
shoulder established by the pattern bit
¡¤????????
minor chisel work to finish.
?
Your jig making has always been a source of inspiration for me. Your lock mitre jig is especially egregious! I absolutely love it.
Of course, now I know I should have made a much larger vertical jig that does not depend on the crosscut fence for registration. Something like what you¡¯ve done would have been much better. Cheers.
?
Lucky
?
I actually like your original concept of using the rip as a bump-stop, a 400mm blade cutting both edges, and a jig on the crosscut fence to hold the
material vertically. ?Here¡¯s a couple more jig I¡¯ve made to stimulate your thinking.? I could quibble over the actual jig configuration (hence these photos of jigs I¡¯ve made to hold vertical materials on the slider as food for thought).
This is for cutting lock miter joints:?
 ??
This one is for finger joints - which is a shallower type of thing you are doing:
?
?
On Jul 9, 2024, at 3:18?PM,
David Luckensmeyer via <dhluckens=[email protected]> wrote:
?
Oh wow! The video came through. I love it. No one would even think the drawer is there! Thanks for sharing.
?
Lucky
?
Lucky, as I further thought about my suggestion I realized it was lunacy. I think you are correct about returning to the horizontal setup. I know
we are talking about a lot of work for 280 repititions!?
I had a few do overs and re-designs as I progressed but ultimately was very happy with the result.?
To answer?your question, it is a drawer that holds DVD¡¯s on the bottom level, and Blu-rays on the top level as they are both different size cases.
The drawer was incorporated into a raised panel staircase I built 30 years earlier and had always planned to make a drawer similar.
There is hopefully an attached video below showing final install??
The CMT was excellent; best dado I ever had but I ran it on a cabinet saw, not on my K700S. I used a simple ¡°box joint jig¡± that we all learned in
woodworking 101 but made a mistake thinking I could do the sides separately and still have things line up. A couple of tries changing methodology were necessary. The drawer empty without the drawer front was over 75 lbs made of Maple. I used Blum slides (Blumotion)
with ?¡°Tip-on¡± added for push to open tech to eliminate visible exterior hardware.
?
On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 5:41?PM
David Luckensmeyer via <dhluckens=[email protected]> wrote:
Imran:
?
Thanks for your ideas. You¡¯re correct about the slotting blade. If I go the vertical machining route I¡¯ll need nearly every bit of
the 400mm blade¡¯s depth of cut. If I were to go back to the horizontal setup, I could remount the dado blade, set it to maximum height, and make a partial cut. This may well be a better solution because it gives me the exact width (to match the existing shallower
trenches).
?
You have rightly identified the time-wasting point of needing to take two passes (minimum) and then deal with the waste by drilling
a hole with a forstner bit to get rid of the septum. I would then have to mark and chisel the waste which is fine for 1-10 joints, but not 280 trenches¡
?
Brian:
?
That looks awesome what you¡¯ve made. Is it a drawer insert for plates? I¡¯m very curious what you thought of the new CMT dado stack?
What did you like? What didn¡¯t you like? Thanks for sharing. I¡¯d rather not run two 400mm blades on the slider. So much to go wrong! EEK.
?
Joe:
?
Love those jigs. Pictures speak volumes. So many ideas to learn from. Thank you.
?
Methodology Quiz
How would you make 280 non-through cuts that have to be precisely machined at 125mm deep and 20mm wide?
?
-
Vertical method as discussed to date using the 400mm sawblade, to make two cuts to establish each shoulder, drilling out the waste, and then A) mark a line and use a chisel to square up the joint,
or B) use a router and small pattern bit to establish the shoulder and then chisel out the corners.
?
-
Horizontal method using the same dado stack that machined the shallow trenches, dado raised all the way up for the stopped cut, and then employ either option A or B above to clean up the joint.
?
-
Rely on the existing shoulders of the trenches (5mm deep on both sides), and use a router and pattern bit to obtain the 125mm ¡°half lap¡± joint, and then square up the joint using option A or B above.
?
-
Something else?
?
I personally can¡¯t see a way to avoid handwork of some kind. The reason why I favour the vertical method (as I¡¯m calling it) is because
I can get precise and square internal corners for the stopped cuts. I find it much easier to clean out the waste if the corners are already established. I have never liked chiselling corners square, even with a square chisel (e.g. Veritas). And I would
hate chiselling 560 corners!
?
Thanks in advance for your input,
Lucky
?
I have another more stable jig for demonstrating tenoning on the slider that could be adapted for this also.
?
|
After hours of research, I landed on this:
?
https://factorysupplyoutlet.com/lubriplate-syn-worm-gear-lubricant-1-plastic-qt/?cmp_id=19259613738&adg_id=&kwd=&device=m&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAC4SZ_8CmUEimV2GGl0_w8Vjqai6Z
|
Re: Cantilevered Lumber Storage Ideas
Just use some sticker boards and stack on the ground, separating layers by chosen?criteria, gives you room to insert a stacker with forks to lift/separate. protects lumber, safe and cheap.
Cheap 1000# rated stackers are easily available new and used and will allow access to parts under the pile.
Otherwise make/buy a custom pallet size to keep wood off direct ground contact and/or water soaking hazards and stack even though you will cry when it comes times to pick and sort out for projects.
If you have to cut lumber to length?to fit horizontally, consider for the benefits of vertical storage instead, resulting in fewer shorts that are too short to be useful. You could bundle them together with cam straps into shocks (like old style crop shocking) that would?allow them to freestand instead of putting excessive leaning stress on a substandard structure.
I had a nice cantilever rack from McMaster-Carr. ?
|
The parts were light enough to move by hand and it held plenty of lumber and plywood I even used one set of arms for the infeed to my cutoff saw.? Access for the stacker to load and unload material from the rack was also good. ?
Joe
The racking I have is interlake
Designing and building for 50 years
On Jul 15, 2024, at 1:06?PM, mac campshure <mac512002@...> wrote:
?I have the big heavy I beam stuff but I also have 80¡¯ 14¡¯ tall of pallet racking the ends are 1 ¡® deep ?with 3¡¯ arms two supports 1500#
Designing and building for 50 years
?
Two 8' long pallet racks along each side and just span across them. You could put in as many cross members as levels you desire. That or Metro style racking and again, span between two units to create levels of storage.
On Monday, July 15, 2024 at 10:05:15 AM MST, PK <
pk@...> wrote:
On Saturday I was lucky enough to find a shop selling a stack of Walnut, Mahogany and White oak for an amazing price. I jumped at it and rented a 6x12 uhaul trailer. Upon arrival at the shop it was obvious that they had come into the wood for free and really had no way of using it in the cabinet business they had. They were making builder paint grade stuff.
It totally filled the 6x12 trailer. It is about 4000 pounds of lumber. When I got home I sorted it. These numbers are conservative:
- About 200 bdft of walnut - off cuts mostly and not very valuable IMHO - cutting board stuff
- About 600 bdft of 4/4 mahogany - nice, wide and clear some 16" widths
- About 100 bdft of 5/4 mahogany - nice, wide and clear
- About 350 bdft of 5/4 rift sawn white oak - really good stuff - a few 13" widths
- About 140 bdft of 4/4 rift sawn white oak - some skip planed
- About 25 bdft of 6/4 rift sawn white oak
I paid less than 10% of what it is worth in So Cal.
Now that the gloating is done, I need a way to store this.
I have a 10'x10' shed on a concrete pad that is 8' tall that is my wood storage. The traditional wall mounted racking will result in this sheds demise as it is not built to handle those loads. I have looked into the traditional 8' tall steel cantilevered rack. I can get it for about $1k locally with 4 adjustable shelves, and that may be a great investment. The drawback is that it is way over engineered for my use. the uprights are 10" deep and the bases are the same 10" tall. The shelves are only 4" thick.
Anyone have a better idea? I do not have a welder...
PK
-- Brett Wissel
Saint Louis Restoration
1831 S Kingshighway Blvd (at Shaw Blvd)
St Louis, MO 63110
314.772.2167
brett@...
Re: Sliding Table ¡°90 Degree Jig¡±
#sawsetup
I would make the caul (one side matching the shelf curve and flat on the other side), use the regular clamps. You can make the caul the same length as the shelf's, so you can use the router to trim the lamination. Power tools with the proper jigs are always my?preference.
James?
On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 4:54?PM David Luckensmeyer via <dhluckens= [email protected]> wrote:
Hi Brian:
?
Apologies, I should have provided more detailed photos.
?
The bookcase uprights in Zebrano are composed of a solid wood core lamination with 3mm thick shop sawn Zebrano veneers on both faces. This is the material I¡¯ve been machining for the half laps.
?
?
?
If you look closely at the photo below, you can see that I have edge laminated the back side of the uprights with Zebrano veneers, prior to the half lap machining process. This worked well.
?
?
The problem with the front edge is that it will be curved. I could not machine the curve until the half lap joints were done. This means that the front edge laminations have to be applied
after the machining is done.
?
The horizontal shelves sit out from the uprights by 20mm. In the photo below you can see how the shelves are proud, and you can see the laminated nature of the uprights.
?
?
My dilemma is how best to apply/trim laminations to the front edge,
between each shelf, on the soon-to-be-curved front edges of the uprights. Gluing will be tedious. I¡¯m thinking of using dozens of clamps like this:
?
?
But how to trim the laminations to length after the glue dries? I guess the flush cut hand saw method is the best one I can think of.
?
Lucky
?
I'm not following the need to laminate the front edges of the uprights? The sides are solid wood, correct? Are you doing it to cover the slots and make the front surface proud of the shelves by
2mm? Color me confused...
On Sunday, July 14, 2024 at 08:25:22 PM MST, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
Hi FOG:
?
By way of update, the aforementioned Leitz blade is phenomenal. It cuts as smoothly as any blade I¡¯ve owned which is saying something for such a large
blade with relatively narrow kerf width of 3.5mm. The details appear again here, just in case anyone else wants to consider it as a 400mm blade option: item number 133130, 400mm diameter, 3.5mm kerf. 2.5mm body, 30mm bore, 96 teeth, 10 degree irregular pitch,
ATB.
?
This is the first time I¡¯ve used a blade of this size. The dust it throws off is horrendous; I assume it has something to do with making 125mm and 135mm
deep cuts. My 3M Dustmaster is in continuous use.
?
?
This is very fine dust from a couple of hours work at the saw:
?
In the end, the powered rip fence and associated programming has been gold. I¡¯ve used the special programs on the overhead display a lot, including rebating,
trenching, etc., but I must say that I have not really used the specific programming mode for the Kappa 400. It is wonderful.
?
There are 10 program positions, and each of those 10 has 100 spaces to enter specific parameters that can be called up at the press of an arrow key and
the start button on the overhead display. You can imagine its use as follows. For the first half lap joint, I needed a cut at 125mm deep, at 120mm from the end of the Zebrano board. So for P1 (where ¡°P¡± stands for ¡°Program¡±), number 1, I¡¯ve entered 125mm blade
height, 0 degrees blade tilt, and 120mm rip fence position. It works out that I need the fence (which is acting as a bump stop) to move over 16.1mm to give the half lap width I need, so I¡¯ve programmed the number 2 position with 125mm blade height, 0 degrees
blade tilt, and 136.1mm rip fence position for the second cut (i.e. both shoulders of the lap joint). And so forth and so on for all 7 half lap joint positions along the bookcase upright. After 4 cuts, my rip fence is out at about 1150mm. So at this point
I have to flip the upright end for end and start again on the final 3 shelf positions (working from the top of the uprights). This is made easy using the programming on the Kappa 400. Obviously my uprights all need to be dimensioned accurately which I have
done.
?
I forgot to say that I could not use special programming function which the Kappa 400 offers, where the rip fence can be programmed for a number of grooves
or trenches of a specific width and depth, at fixed intervals. The reason? Because my shelves are deeper at the bottom and much shallower at the top, so the position of each half lap joint on the uprights is of decreasing distance (from the bottom up) and
increasing distance (from the top down). Programming mode made this process easy. Seems like cheating. Comparing uprights at random, and I¡¯d say the 0.1mm claimed tolerance is verified. I¡¯ve used lots of compressed air between cuts to make sure registrations
are accurate, and I¡¯d say the Kappa 400 has worked as advertised. I strongly recommend a Felder powered rip fence as a wonderful option.
?
Anyway, the 3.5mm blade width allowed for 6 passes to remove the waste for each half-lap joint. No drilling, no knocking out timber, no marking lines,
and definitely no chiselling. I¡¯ve decided I can live with the bumpy but regularly reliable surface in the middle of each half lap joint.
?
?
Last night I assembled the first and smallest of the bookcases. It went together very nicely but I think I¡¯m going to tweak the Walnut shelves (through
the wide belt sander) so the fit is less tight. In the picture below, you¡¯ll see the upper shelves don¡¯t seem the correct width. That¡¯s because the uprights have not been curved yet, to reflect the design where shelves at the bottom are full depth (260mm)
while the shelves become less deep by the top (210mm).
?
l¡¯ll use a template to pattern route the curve after I¡¯m completely satisfied with the joinery. And then another tricky part is headed my way: I have
to edge laminate 2mm solid Zebrano onto the front edges of all the curved uprights. I¡¯ve agonised over this because I could not cut the curves and laminate before machining the joints because I needed parallel edges. Adding the solid wood lamination to the
edge after the machining is going to be time consuming and I¡¯m not sure how best to do it. I could apply over long sections to each curved edge (between shelves) and then flush them, but how?
?
-
Router (risk of splinters)
-
Chisel (not looking forward to that)
-
Flush cut hand saw (might be the best option)
-
Cut the lamination exactly to length and glue it exactly in position¡
?
If I used the flush cut handsaw, I could use overlength Zebrano pieces (but maintaining continuous grain) and then not stress the clamping process. I
guess after that many cuts (224 to be precise) I¡¯ll be pretty good with the flush cut saw? Thanks for your brainstorming thoughts!
?
?
?
Lucky
?
Hi David B and Michael:
?
Funny you should mention the flatbed CNC. Although not the same, I have been pondering how much use I¡¯d get out of a Shaper Origin. That tool would fit
nicely somewhere in my shop!
?
Thanks David for your vote on the vertical method. I think the clean corners are swaying me strongly for that option. I¡¯ve wondered if I make a very
accurate registration jig and use a small pattern bit (I can get an 8mm dia. bit from across town) to establish the majority of the 20mm flat across the joint, then there would be very little chisel work at all:
?
¡¤????????
corners squared by the saw blade
¡¤????????
majority of waste drilled out
¡¤????????
shoulder established by the pattern bit
¡¤????????
minor chisel work to finish.
?
Your jig making has always been a source of inspiration for me. Your lock mitre jig is especially egregious! I absolutely love it. Of course, now I know
I should have made a much larger vertical jig that does not depend on the crosscut fence for registration. Something like what you¡¯ve done would have been much better. Cheers.
?
Lucky
?
I actually like your original concept of using the rip as a bump-stop, a 400mm blade cutting both edges, and a jig on the crosscut fence to hold the material vertically.
?Here¡¯s a couple more jig I¡¯ve made to stimulate your thinking.? I could quibble over the actual jig configuration (hence these photos of jigs I¡¯ve made to hold vertical materials on the slider as food for thought).
This is for cutting lock miter joints:?
 ??
This one is for finger joints - which is a shallower type of thing you are doing:
?
?
On Jul 9, 2024, at 3:18?PM, David Luckensmeyer
via <dhluckens=[email protected]> wrote:
?
Oh wow! The video came through. I love it. No one would even think the drawer is there! Thanks for sharing.
?
Lucky
?
Lucky, as I further thought about my suggestion I realized it was lunacy. I think you are correct about returning to the horizontal setup. I know we are talking about
a lot of work for 280 repititions!?
I had a few do overs and re-designs as I progressed but ultimately was very happy with the result.?
To answer?your question, it is a drawer that holds DVD¡¯s on the bottom level, and Blu-rays on the top level as they are both different size cases. The drawer was incorporated
into a raised panel staircase I built 30 years earlier and had always planned to make a drawer similar.
There is hopefully an attached video below showing final install??
The CMT was excellent; best dado I ever had but I ran it on a cabinet saw, not on my K700S. I used a simple ¡°box joint jig¡± that we all learned in woodworking 101 but
made a mistake thinking I could do the sides separately and still have things line up. A couple of tries changing methodology were necessary. The drawer empty without the drawer front was over 75 lbs made of Maple. I used Blum slides (Blumotion) with ?¡°Tip-on¡±
added for push to open tech to eliminate visible exterior hardware.
?
On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 5:41?PM David
Luckensmeyer via <dhluckens=[email protected]> wrote:
Imran:
?
Thanks for your ideas. You¡¯re correct about the slotting blade. If I go the vertical machining route I¡¯ll need nearly every bit of the 400mm blade¡¯s
depth of cut. If I were to go back to the horizontal setup, I could remount the dado blade, set it to maximum height, and make a partial cut. This may well be a better solution because it gives me the exact width (to match the existing shallower trenches).
?
You have rightly identified the time-wasting point of needing to take two passes (minimum) and then deal with the waste by drilling a hole with a forstner
bit to get rid of the septum. I would then have to mark and chisel the waste which is fine for 1-10 joints, but not 280 trenches¡
?
Brian:
?
That looks awesome what you¡¯ve made. Is it a drawer insert for plates? I¡¯m very curious what you thought of the new CMT dado stack? What did you like?
What didn¡¯t you like? Thanks for sharing. I¡¯d rather not run two 400mm blades on the slider. So much to go wrong! EEK.
?
Joe:
?
Love those jigs. Pictures speak volumes. So many ideas to learn from. Thank you.
?
Methodology Quiz
How would you make 280 non-through cuts that have to be precisely machined at 125mm deep and 20mm wide?
?
-
Vertical method as discussed to date using the 400mm sawblade, to make two cuts to establish each shoulder, drilling out the waste, and then A) mark a line and use a chisel to square up the joint,
or B) use a router and small pattern bit to establish the shoulder and then chisel out the corners.
?
-
Horizontal method using the same dado stack that machined the shallow trenches, dado raised all the way up for the stopped cut, and then employ either option A or B above to clean up the joint.
?
-
Rely on the existing shoulders of the trenches (5mm deep on both sides), and use a router and pattern bit to obtain the 125mm ¡°half lap¡± joint, and then square up the joint using option A or B above.
?
-
Something else?
?
I personally can¡¯t see a way to avoid handwork of some kind. The reason why I favour the vertical method (as I¡¯m calling it) is because I can get precise
and square internal corners for the stopped cuts. I find it much easier to clean out the waste if the corners are already established. I have never liked chiselling corners square, even with a square chisel (e.g. Veritas). And I would
hate chiselling 560 corners!
?
Thanks in advance for your input,
Lucky
?
I have another more stable jig for demonstrating tenoning on the slider that could be adapted for this also.
?
|
Re: Sliding Table ¡°90 Degree Jig¡±
#sawsetup
Hi Lucky,
Thanks for the details. As for your question about trimming the edge banding,?I have not used Zebrano to know how easy it is to splinter with trim router. Would a backing material help? If so, you?could use a second, as thick as possible, piece as a backer. This can be held by std F clamps while you trim with router. You will need to re-clamp for each side though.
Imran Malik
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jul 15, 2024, at 4:54?PM, David Luckensmeyer via groups.io <dhluckens@...> wrote: ?
Hi Brian:
?
Apologies, I should have provided more detailed photos.
?
The bookcase uprights in Zebrano are composed of a solid wood core lamination with 3mm thick shop sawn Zebrano veneers on both faces. This is the material I¡¯ve been machining for the half laps.
?
<image001.jpg>
?
<image002.jpg>
?
If you look closely at the photo below, you can see that I have edge laminated the back side of the uprights with Zebrano veneers, prior to the half lap machining process. This worked well.
?
<image003.jpg>
?
The problem with the front edge is that it will be curved. I could not machine the curve until the half lap joints were done. This means that the front edge laminations have to be applied
after the machining is done.
?
The horizontal shelves sit out from the uprights by 20mm. In the photo below you can see how the shelves are proud, and you can see the laminated nature of the uprights.
?
<image004.jpg>
?
My dilemma is how best to apply/trim laminations to the front edge,
between each shelf, on the soon-to-be-curved front edges of the uprights. Gluing will be tedious. I¡¯m thinking of using dozens of clamps like this:
?
<image005.jpg>
?
But how to trim the laminations to length after the glue dries? I guess the flush cut hand saw method is the best one I can think of.
?
Lucky
?
I'm not following the need to laminate the front edges of the uprights? The sides are solid wood, correct? Are you doing it to cover the slots and make the front surface proud of the shelves by
2mm? Color me confused...
On Sunday, July 14, 2024 at 08:25:22 PM MST, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
Hi FOG:
?
By way of update, the aforementioned Leitz blade is phenomenal. It cuts as smoothly as any blade I¡¯ve owned which is saying something for such a large
blade with relatively narrow kerf width of 3.5mm. The details appear again here, just in case anyone else wants to consider it as a 400mm blade option: item number 133130, 400mm diameter, 3.5mm kerf. 2.5mm body, 30mm bore, 96 teeth, 10 degree irregular pitch,
ATB.
?
This is the first time I¡¯ve used a blade of this size. The dust it throws off is horrendous; I assume it has something to do with making 125mm and 135mm
deep cuts. My 3M Dustmaster is in continuous use.
?
<image001.jpg>
?
This is very fine dust from a couple of hours work at the saw:
<image002.jpg>
?
In the end, the powered rip fence and associated programming has been gold. I¡¯ve used the special programs on the overhead display a lot, including rebating,
trenching, etc., but I must say that I have not really used the specific programming mode for the Kappa 400. It is wonderful.
?
There are 10 program positions, and each of those 10 has 100 spaces to enter specific parameters that can be called up at the press of an arrow key and
the start button on the overhead display. You can imagine its use as follows. For the first half lap joint, I needed a cut at 125mm deep, at 120mm from the end of the Zebrano board. So for P1 (where ¡°P¡± stands for ¡°Program¡±), number 1, I¡¯ve entered 125mm blade
height, 0 degrees blade tilt, and 120mm rip fence position. It works out that I need the fence (which is acting as a bump stop) to move over 16.1mm to give the half lap width I need, so I¡¯ve programmed the number 2 position with 125mm blade height, 0 degrees
blade tilt, and 136.1mm rip fence position for the second cut (i.e. both shoulders of the lap joint). And so forth and so on for all 7 half lap joint positions along the bookcase upright. After 4 cuts, my rip fence is out at about 1150mm. So at this point
I have to flip the upright end for end and start again on the final 3 shelf positions (working from the top of the uprights). This is made easy using the programming on the Kappa 400. Obviously my uprights all need to be dimensioned accurately which I have
done.
?
I forgot to say that I could not use special programming function which the Kappa 400 offers, where the rip fence can be programmed for a number of grooves
or trenches of a specific width and depth, at fixed intervals. The reason? Because my shelves are deeper at the bottom and much shallower at the top, so the position of each half lap joint on the uprights is of decreasing distance (from the bottom up) and
increasing distance (from the top down). Programming mode made this process easy. Seems like cheating. Comparing uprights at random, and I¡¯d say the 0.1mm claimed tolerance is verified. I¡¯ve used lots of compressed air between cuts to make sure registrations
are accurate, and I¡¯d say the Kappa 400 has worked as advertised. I strongly recommend a Felder powered rip fence as a wonderful option.
?
Anyway, the 3.5mm blade width allowed for 6 passes to remove the waste for each half-lap joint. No drilling, no knocking out timber, no marking lines,
and definitely no chiselling. I¡¯ve decided I can live with the bumpy but regularly reliable surface in the middle of each half lap joint.
?
<image003.jpg>
<image004.jpg>
<image005.jpg>
?
Last night I assembled the first and smallest of the bookcases. It went together very nicely but I think I¡¯m going to tweak the Walnut shelves (through
the wide belt sander) so the fit is less tight. In the picture below, you¡¯ll see the upper shelves don¡¯t seem the correct width. That¡¯s because the uprights have not been curved yet, to reflect the design where shelves at the bottom are full depth (260mm)
while the shelves become less deep by the top (210mm).
?
l¡¯ll use a template to pattern route the curve after I¡¯m completely satisfied with the joinery. And then another tricky part is headed my way: I have
to edge laminate 2mm solid Zebrano onto the front edges of all the curved uprights. I¡¯ve agonised over this because I could not cut the curves and laminate before machining the joints because I needed parallel edges. Adding the solid wood lamination to the
edge after the machining is going to be time consuming and I¡¯m not sure how best to do it. I could apply over long sections to each curved edge (between shelves) and then flush them, but how?
?
-
Router (risk of splinters)
-
Chisel (not looking forward to that)
-
Flush cut hand saw (might be the best option)
-
Cut the lamination exactly to length and glue it exactly in position¡
?
If I used the flush cut handsaw, I could use overlength Zebrano pieces (but maintaining continuous grain) and then not stress the clamping process. I
guess after that many cuts (224 to be precise) I¡¯ll be pretty good with the flush cut saw? Thanks for your brainstorming thoughts!
?
<image006.jpg>
?
?
Lucky
?
Hi David B and Michael:
?
Funny you should mention the flatbed CNC. Although not the same, I have been pondering how much use I¡¯d get out of a Shaper Origin. That tool would fit
nicely somewhere in my shop!
?
Thanks David for your vote on the vertical method. I think the clean corners are swaying me strongly for that option. I¡¯ve wondered if I make a very
accurate registration jig and use a small pattern bit (I can get an 8mm dia. bit from across town) to establish the majority of the 20mm flat across the joint, then there would be very little chisel work at all:
?
¡¤????????
corners squared by the saw blade
¡¤????????
majority of waste drilled out
¡¤????????
shoulder established by the pattern bit
¡¤????????
minor chisel work to finish.
?
Your jig making has always been a source of inspiration for me. Your lock mitre jig is especially egregious! I absolutely love it. Of course, now I know
I should have made a much larger vertical jig that does not depend on the crosscut fence for registration. Something like what you¡¯ve done would have been much better. Cheers.
?
Lucky
?
I actually like your original concept of using the rip as a bump-stop, a 400mm blade cutting both edges, and a jig on the crosscut fence to hold the material vertically.
?Here¡¯s a couple more jig I¡¯ve made to stimulate your thinking. ?I could quibble over the actual jig configuration (hence these photos of jigs I¡¯ve made to hold vertical materials on the slider as food for thought).
This is for cutting lock miter joints:?
<25453986491_dcf39ddcf8_c.jpeg> ??
<25546726865_d8964e0b17_c.jpeg>
This one is for finger joints - which is a shallower type of thing you are doing:
<12955701295_bf5dd82b5c_c.jpeg>
<12955728945_625e80f9cb_c.jpeg>
?
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
?
On Jul 9, 2024, at 3:18?PM, David Luckensmeyer
via groups.io <dhluckens@...> wrote:
?
Oh wow! The video came through. I love it. No one would even think the drawer is there! Thanks for sharing.
?
Lucky
?
Lucky, as I further thought about my suggestion I realized it was lunacy. I think you are correct about returning to the horizontal setup. I know we are talking about
a lot of work for 280 repititions!?
I had a few do overs and re-designs as I progressed but ultimately was very happy with the result.?
To answer?your question, it is a drawer that holds DVD¡¯s on the bottom level, and Blu-rays on the top level as they are both different size cases. The drawer was incorporated
into a raised panel staircase I built 30 years earlier and had always planned to make a drawer similar.
There is hopefully an attached video below showing final install??
The CMT was excellent; best dado I ever had but I ran it on a cabinet saw, not on my K700S. I used a simple ¡°box joint jig¡± that we all learned in woodworking 101 but
made a mistake thinking I could do the sides separately and still have things line up. A couple of tries changing methodology were necessary. The drawer empty without the drawer front was over 75 lbs made of Maple. I used Blum slides (Blumotion) with ?¡°Tip-on¡±
added for push to open tech to eliminate visible exterior hardware.
?
On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 5:41?PM David
Luckensmeyer via <dhluckens=[email protected]> wrote:
Imran:
?
Thanks for your ideas. You¡¯re correct about the slotting blade. If I go the vertical machining route I¡¯ll need nearly every bit of the 400mm blade¡¯s
depth of cut. If I were to go back to the horizontal setup, I could remount the dado blade, set it to maximum height, and make a partial cut. This may well be a better solution because it gives me the exact width (to match the existing shallower trenches).
?
You have rightly identified the time-wasting point of needing to take two passes (minimum) and then deal with the waste by drilling a hole with a forstner
bit to get rid of the septum. I would then have to mark and chisel the waste which is fine for 1-10 joints, but not 280 trenches¡
?
Brian:
?
That looks awesome what you¡¯ve made. Is it a drawer insert for plates? I¡¯m very curious what you thought of the new CMT dado stack? What did you like?
What didn¡¯t you like? Thanks for sharing. I¡¯d rather not run two 400mm blades on the slider. So much to go wrong! EEK.
?
Joe:
?
Love those jigs. Pictures speak volumes. So many ideas to learn from. Thank you.
?
Methodology Quiz
How would you make 280 non-through cuts that have to be precisely machined at 125mm deep and 20mm wide?
?
-
Vertical method as discussed to date using the 400mm sawblade, to make two cuts to establish each shoulder, drilling out the waste, and then A) mark a line and use a chisel to square up the joint,
or B) use a router and small pattern bit to establish the shoulder and then chisel out the corners.
?
-
Horizontal method using the same dado stack that machined the shallow trenches, dado raised all the way up for the stopped cut, and then employ either option A or B above to clean up the joint.
?
-
Rely on the existing shoulders of the trenches (5mm deep on both sides), and use a router and pattern bit to obtain the 125mm ¡°half lap¡± joint, and then square up the joint using option A or B above.
?
-
Something else?
?
I personally can¡¯t see a way to avoid handwork of some kind. The reason why I favour the vertical method (as I¡¯m calling it) is because I can get precise
and square internal corners for the stopped cuts. I find it much easier to clean out the waste if the corners are already established. I have never liked chiselling corners square, even with a square chisel (e.g. Veritas). And I would
hate chiselling 560 corners!
?
Thanks in advance for your input,
Lucky
?
I have another more stable jig for demonstrating tenoning on the slider that could be adapted for this also.
?
|
Re: Cantilevered Lumber Storage Ideas
|
Re: Sliding Table ¡°90 Degree Jig¡±
#sawsetup
Two thoughts on clamping:
- ?Conventional band clamp going all the way around:
I have a both.? The latter ones aren't cheap, but they work great
when you need to apply something in place.
On 7/15/2024 1:53 PM, David
Luckensmeyer via groups.io wrote:
Hi Brian:
?
Apologies, I
should have provided more detailed photos.
?
The bookcase
uprights in Zebrano are composed of a solid wood core
lamination with 3mm thick shop sawn Zebrano veneers on both
faces. This is the material I¡¯ve been machining for the half
laps.
?
?
?
If you look
closely at the photo below, you can see that I have edge
laminated the back side of the uprights with Zebrano
veneers, prior to the half lap machining process. This
worked well.
?
?
The problem
with the front edge is that it will be curved. I could not
machine the curve until the half lap joints were done. This
means that the front edge laminations have to be applied
after the machining is done.
?
The
horizontal shelves sit out from the uprights by 20mm. In the
photo below you can see how the shelves are proud, and you
can see the laminated nature of the uprights.
?
?
My dilemma
is how best to apply/trim laminations to the front edge,
between each shelf, on the soon-to-be-curved front
edges of the uprights. Gluing will be tedious. I¡¯m thinking
of using dozens of clamps like this:
?
?
But how to
trim the laminations to length after the glue dries? I guess
the flush cut hand saw method is the best one I can think
of.
?
Lucky
?
I'm
not following the need to laminate the front edges
of the uprights? The sides are solid wood,
correct? Are you doing it to cover the slots and
make the front surface proud of the shelves by
2mm? Color me confused...
On Sunday,
July 14, 2024 at 08:25:22 PM MST, David
Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
Hi
FOG:
?
By
way of update, the aforementioned Leitz
blade is phenomenal. It cuts as smoothly as
any blade I¡¯ve owned which is saying
something for such a large blade with
relatively narrow kerf width of 3.5mm. The
details appear again here, just in case
anyone else wants to consider it as a 400mm
blade option: item number 133130, 400mm
diameter, 3.5mm kerf. 2.5mm body, 30mm bore,
96 teeth, 10 degree irregular pitch, ATB.
?
This
is the first time I¡¯ve used a blade of this
size. The dust it throws off is horrendous;
I assume it has something to do with making
125mm and 135mm deep cuts. My 3M Dustmaster
is in continuous use.
?
?
This
is very fine dust from a couple of hours
work at the saw:
?
In
the end, the powered rip fence and
associated programming has been gold. I¡¯ve
used the special programs on the overhead
display a lot, including rebating,
trenching, etc., but I must say that I have
not really used the specific programming
mode for the Kappa 400. It is wonderful.
?
There
are 10 program positions, and each of those
10 has 100 spaces to enter specific
parameters that can be called up at the
press of an arrow key and the start button
on the overhead display. You can imagine its
use as follows. For the first half lap
joint, I needed a cut at 125mm deep, at
120mm from the end of the Zebrano board. So
for P1 (where ¡°P¡± stands for ¡°Program¡±),
number 1, I¡¯ve entered 125mm blade height, 0
degrees blade tilt, and 120mm rip fence
position. It works out that I need the fence
(which is acting as a bump stop) to move
over 16.1mm to give the half lap width I
need, so I¡¯ve programmed the number 2
position with 125mm blade height, 0 degrees
blade tilt, and 136.1mm rip fence position
for the second cut (i.e. both shoulders of
the lap joint). And so forth and so on for
all 7 half lap joint positions along the
bookcase upright. After 4 cuts, my rip fence
is out at about 1150mm. So at this point I
have to flip the upright end for end and
start again on the final 3 shelf positions
(working from the top of the uprights). This
is made easy using the programming on the
Kappa 400. Obviously my uprights all need to
be dimensioned accurately which I have done.
?
I
forgot to say that I could not use special
programming function which the Kappa 400
offers, where the rip fence can be
programmed for a number of grooves or
trenches of a specific width and depth, at
fixed intervals. The reason? Because my
shelves are deeper at the bottom and much
shallower at the top, so the position of
each half lap joint on the uprights is of
decreasing distance (from the bottom up) and
increasing distance (from the top down).
Programming mode made this process easy.
Seems like cheating. Comparing uprights at
random, and I¡¯d say the 0.1mm claimed
tolerance is verified. I¡¯ve used lots of
compressed air between cuts to make sure
registrations are accurate, and I¡¯d say the
Kappa 400 has worked as advertised. I
strongly recommend a Felder powered rip
fence as a wonderful option.
?
Anyway,
the 3.5mm blade width allowed for 6 passes
to remove the waste for each half-lap joint.
No drilling, no knocking out timber, no
marking lines, and definitely no chiselling.
I¡¯ve decided I can live with the bumpy but
regularly reliable surface in the middle of
each half lap joint.
?
?
Last
night I assembled the first and smallest of
the bookcases. It went together very nicely
but I think I¡¯m going to tweak the Walnut
shelves (through the wide belt sander) so
the fit is less tight. In the picture below,
you¡¯ll see the upper shelves don¡¯t seem the
correct width. That¡¯s because the uprights
have not been curved yet, to reflect the
design where shelves at the bottom are full
depth (260mm) while the shelves become less
deep by the top (210mm).
?
l¡¯ll
use a template to pattern route the curve
after I¡¯m completely satisfied with the
joinery. And then another tricky part is
headed my way: I have to edge laminate 2mm
solid Zebrano onto the front edges of all
the curved uprights. I¡¯ve agonised over this
because I could not cut the curves and
laminate before machining the joints because
I needed parallel edges. Adding the solid
wood lamination to the edge after the
machining is going to be time consuming and
I¡¯m not sure how best to do it. I could
apply over long sections to each curved edge
(between shelves) and then flush them, but
how?
?
-
Router
(risk of splinters)
-
Chisel
(not looking forward to that)
-
Flush
cut hand saw (might be the best option)
-
Cut the
lamination exactly to length and glue it
exactly in position¡
?
If
I used the flush cut handsaw, I could use
overlength Zebrano pieces (but maintaining
continuous grain) and then not stress the
clamping process. I guess after that many
cuts (224 to be precise) I¡¯ll be pretty good
with the flush cut saw? Thanks for your
brainstorming thoughts!
?
?
?
Lucky
?
Hi
David B and Michael:
?
Funny
you should mention the flatbed CNC.
Although not the same, I have been
pondering how much use I¡¯d get out of
a Shaper Origin. That tool would fit
nicely somewhere in my shop!
?
Thanks
David for your vote on the vertical
method. I think the clean corners are
swaying me strongly for that option.
I¡¯ve wondered if I make a very
accurate registration jig and use a
small pattern bit (I can get an 8mm
dia. bit from across town) to
establish the majority of the 20mm
flat across the joint, then there
would be very little chisel work at
all:
?
¡¤????????
corners
squared by the saw blade
¡¤????????
majority
of waste drilled out
¡¤????????
shoulder
established by the pattern bit
¡¤????????
minor
chisel work to finish.
?
Your
jig making has always been a source of
inspiration for me. Your lock mitre
jig is especially egregious! I
absolutely love it. Of course, now I
know I should have made a much larger
vertical jig that does not depend on
the crosscut fence for registration.
Something like what you¡¯ve done would
have been much better. Cheers.
?
Lucky
?
I actually
like your original concept of
using the rip as a bump-stop, a
400mm blade cutting both edges,
and a jig on the crosscut fence to
hold the material vertically.
?Here¡¯s a couple more jig I¡¯ve
made to stimulate your thinking.
?I could quibble over the actual
jig configuration (hence these
photos of jigs I¡¯ve made to hold
vertical materials on the slider
as food for thought).
This is for
cutting lock miter joints:?
 ??
This one is
for finger joints - which is a
shallower type of thing you are
doing:
?
?
On Jul 9,
2024, at 3:18?PM, David
Luckensmeyer via groups.io
<dhluckens@...> wrote:
?
Oh
wow! The video came
through. I love it. No
one would even think
the drawer is there!
Thanks for sharing.
?
Lucky
?
Lucky, as I
further
thought about
my suggestion
I realized it
was lunacy. I
think you are
correct about
returning to
the horizontal
setup. I know
we are talking
about a lot of
work for 280
repititions!?
I had a few do
overs and
re-designs as
I progressed
but ultimately
was very happy
with the
result.?
To
answer?your
question, it
is a drawer
that holds
DVD¡¯s on the
bottom level,
and Blu-rays
on the top
level as they
are both
different size
cases. The
drawer was
incorporated
into a raised
panel
staircase I
built 30 years
earlier and
had always
planned to
make a drawer
similar.
There is
hopefully an
attached video
below showing
final
install??
The CMT was
excellent;
best dado I
ever had but I
ran it on a
cabinet saw,
not on my
K700S. I used
a simple ¡°box
joint jig¡±
that we all
learned in
woodworking
101 but made a
mistake
thinking I
could do the
sides
separately and
still have
things line
up. A couple
of tries
changing
methodology
were
necessary. The
drawer empty
without the
drawer front
was over 75
lbs made of
Maple. I used
Blum slides
(Blumotion)
with ?¡°Tip-on¡±
added for push
to open tech
to eliminate
visible
exterior
hardware.
?
On Tue, Jul
9, 2024 at
5:41?PM David
Luckensmeyer
via
<dhluckens=[email protected]> wrote:
Imran:
?
Thanks
for your
ideas. You¡¯re
correct about
the slotting
blade. If I go
the vertical
machining
route I¡¯ll
need nearly
every bit of
the 400mm
blade¡¯s depth
of cut. If I
were to go
back to the
horizontal
setup, I could
remount the
dado blade,
set it to
maximum
height, and
make a partial
cut. This may
well be a
better
solution
because it
gives me the
exact width
(to match the
existing
shallower
trenches).
?
You
have rightly
identified the
time-wasting
point of
needing to
take two
passes
(minimum) and
then deal with
the waste by
drilling a
hole with a
forstner bit
to get rid of
the septum. I
would then
have to mark
and chisel the
waste which is
fine for 1-10
joints, but
not 280
trenches¡
?
Brian:
?
That
looks awesome
what you¡¯ve
made. Is it a
drawer insert
for plates?
I¡¯m very
curious what
you thought of
the new CMT
dado stack?
What did you
like? What
didn¡¯t you
like? Thanks
for sharing.
I¡¯d rather not
run two 400mm
blades on the
slider. So
much to go
wrong! EEK.
?
Joe:
?
Love
those jigs.
Pictures speak
volumes. So
many ideas to
learn from.
Thank you.
?
Methodology
Quiz
How
would you make
280
non-through
cuts that have
to be
precisely
machined at
125mm deep and
20mm wide?
?
-
Vertical
method as
discussed to
date using the
400mm
sawblade, to
make two cuts
to establish
each shoulder,
drilling out
the waste, and
then A) mark a
line and use a
chisel to
square up the
joint, or B)
use a router
and small
pattern bit to
establish the
shoulder and
then chisel
out the
corners.
?
-
Horizontal
method using
the same dado
stack that
machined the
shallow
trenches, dado
raised all the
way up for the
stopped cut,
and then
employ either
option A or B
above to clean
up the joint.
?
-
Rely on
the existing
shoulders of
the trenches
(5mm deep on
both sides),
and use a
router and
pattern bit to
obtain the
125mm ¡°half
lap¡± joint,
and then
square up the
joint using
option A or B
above.
?
-
Something
else?
?
I
personally
can¡¯t see a
way to avoid
handwork of
some kind. The
reason why I
favour the
vertical
method (as I¡¯m
calling it) is
because I can
get precise
and square
internal
corners for
the stopped
cuts. I find
it much easier
to clean out
the waste if
the corners
are already
established. I
have never
liked
chiselling
corners
square, even
with a square
chisel (e.g.
Veritas). And
I would
hate
chiselling 560
corners!
?
Thanks
in advance for
your input,
Lucky
?
I
have another
more stable
jig for
demonstrating
tenoning on
the slider
that could be
adapted for
this also.
?
--
Michael Garrison Stuber
|
Re: Sliding Table ¡°90 Degree Jig¡±
#sawsetup
Hi Brian:
?
Apologies, I should have provided more detailed photos.
?
The bookcase uprights in Zebrano are composed of a solid wood core lamination with 3mm thick shop sawn Zebrano veneers on both faces. This is the material I¡¯ve been machining for the half laps.
?
?
?
If you look closely at the photo below, you can see that I have edge laminated the back side of the uprights with Zebrano veneers, prior to the half lap machining process. This worked well.
?
?
The problem with the front edge is that it will be curved. I could not machine the curve until the half lap joints were done. This means that the front edge laminations have to be applied
after the machining is done.
?
The horizontal shelves sit out from the uprights by 20mm. In the photo below you can see how the shelves are proud, and you can see the laminated nature of the uprights.
?
?
My dilemma is how best to apply/trim laminations to the front edge,
between each shelf, on the soon-to-be-curved front edges of the uprights. Gluing will be tedious. I¡¯m thinking of using dozens of clamps like this:
?
?
But how to trim the laminations to length after the glue dries? I guess the flush cut hand saw method is the best one I can think of.
?
Lucky
?
I'm not following the need to laminate the front edges of the uprights? The sides are solid wood, correct? Are you doing it to cover the slots and make the front surface proud of the shelves by
2mm? Color me confused...
On Sunday, July 14, 2024 at 08:25:22 PM MST, David Luckensmeyer <dhluckens@...> wrote:
Hi FOG:
?
By way of update, the aforementioned Leitz blade is phenomenal. It cuts as smoothly as any blade I¡¯ve owned which is saying something for such a large
blade with relatively narrow kerf width of 3.5mm. The details appear again here, just in case anyone else wants to consider it as a 400mm blade option: item number 133130, 400mm diameter, 3.5mm kerf. 2.5mm body, 30mm bore, 96 teeth, 10 degree irregular pitch,
ATB.
?
This is the first time I¡¯ve used a blade of this size. The dust it throws off is horrendous; I assume it has something to do with making 125mm and 135mm
deep cuts. My 3M Dustmaster is in continuous use.
?
?
This is very fine dust from a couple of hours work at the saw:
?
In the end, the powered rip fence and associated programming has been gold. I¡¯ve used the special programs on the overhead display a lot, including rebating,
trenching, etc., but I must say that I have not really used the specific programming mode for the Kappa 400. It is wonderful.
?
There are 10 program positions, and each of those 10 has 100 spaces to enter specific parameters that can be called up at the press of an arrow key and
the start button on the overhead display. You can imagine its use as follows. For the first half lap joint, I needed a cut at 125mm deep, at 120mm from the end of the Zebrano board. So for P1 (where ¡°P¡± stands for ¡°Program¡±), number 1, I¡¯ve entered 125mm blade
height, 0 degrees blade tilt, and 120mm rip fence position. It works out that I need the fence (which is acting as a bump stop) to move over 16.1mm to give the half lap width I need, so I¡¯ve programmed the number 2 position with 125mm blade height, 0 degrees
blade tilt, and 136.1mm rip fence position for the second cut (i.e. both shoulders of the lap joint). And so forth and so on for all 7 half lap joint positions along the bookcase upright. After 4 cuts, my rip fence is out at about 1150mm. So at this point
I have to flip the upright end for end and start again on the final 3 shelf positions (working from the top of the uprights). This is made easy using the programming on the Kappa 400. Obviously my uprights all need to be dimensioned accurately which I have
done.
?
I forgot to say that I could not use special programming function which the Kappa 400 offers, where the rip fence can be programmed for a number of grooves
or trenches of a specific width and depth, at fixed intervals. The reason? Because my shelves are deeper at the bottom and much shallower at the top, so the position of each half lap joint on the uprights is of decreasing distance (from the bottom up) and
increasing distance (from the top down). Programming mode made this process easy. Seems like cheating. Comparing uprights at random, and I¡¯d say the 0.1mm claimed tolerance is verified. I¡¯ve used lots of compressed air between cuts to make sure registrations
are accurate, and I¡¯d say the Kappa 400 has worked as advertised. I strongly recommend a Felder powered rip fence as a wonderful option.
?
Anyway, the 3.5mm blade width allowed for 6 passes to remove the waste for each half-lap joint. No drilling, no knocking out timber, no marking lines,
and definitely no chiselling. I¡¯ve decided I can live with the bumpy but regularly reliable surface in the middle of each half lap joint.
?
?
Last night I assembled the first and smallest of the bookcases. It went together very nicely but I think I¡¯m going to tweak the Walnut shelves (through
the wide belt sander) so the fit is less tight. In the picture below, you¡¯ll see the upper shelves don¡¯t seem the correct width. That¡¯s because the uprights have not been curved yet, to reflect the design where shelves at the bottom are full depth (260mm)
while the shelves become less deep by the top (210mm).
?
l¡¯ll use a template to pattern route the curve after I¡¯m completely satisfied with the joinery. And then another tricky part is headed my way: I have
to edge laminate 2mm solid Zebrano onto the front edges of all the curved uprights. I¡¯ve agonised over this because I could not cut the curves and laminate before machining the joints because I needed parallel edges. Adding the solid wood lamination to the
edge after the machining is going to be time consuming and I¡¯m not sure how best to do it. I could apply over long sections to each curved edge (between shelves) and then flush them, but how?
?
-
Router (risk of splinters)
-
Chisel (not looking forward to that)
-
Flush cut hand saw (might be the best option)
-
Cut the lamination exactly to length and glue it exactly in position¡
?
If I used the flush cut handsaw, I could use overlength Zebrano pieces (but maintaining continuous grain) and then not stress the clamping process. I
guess after that many cuts (224 to be precise) I¡¯ll be pretty good with the flush cut saw? Thanks for your brainstorming thoughts!
?
?
?
Lucky
?
Hi David B and Michael:
?
Funny you should mention the flatbed CNC. Although not the same, I have been pondering how much use I¡¯d get out of a Shaper Origin. That tool would fit
nicely somewhere in my shop!
?
Thanks David for your vote on the vertical method. I think the clean corners are swaying me strongly for that option. I¡¯ve wondered if I make a very
accurate registration jig and use a small pattern bit (I can get an 8mm dia. bit from across town) to establish the majority of the 20mm flat across the joint, then there would be very little chisel work at all:
?
¡¤????????
corners squared by the saw blade
¡¤????????
majority of waste drilled out
¡¤????????
shoulder established by the pattern bit
¡¤????????
minor chisel work to finish.
?
Your jig making has always been a source of inspiration for me. Your lock mitre jig is especially egregious! I absolutely love it. Of course, now I know
I should have made a much larger vertical jig that does not depend on the crosscut fence for registration. Something like what you¡¯ve done would have been much better. Cheers.
?
Lucky
?
I actually like your original concept of using the rip as a bump-stop, a 400mm blade cutting both edges, and a jig on the crosscut fence to hold the material vertically.
?Here¡¯s a couple more jig I¡¯ve made to stimulate your thinking. ?I could quibble over the actual jig configuration (hence these photos of jigs I¡¯ve made to hold vertical materials on the slider as food for thought).
This is for cutting lock miter joints:?
 ??
This one is for finger joints - which is a shallower type of thing you are doing:
?
David Best
DBestWorkshop@...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidpbest/collections/
https://www.youtube.com/@David_Best
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jul 9, 2024, at 3:18?PM, David Luckensmeyer
via groups.io <dhluckens@...> wrote:
?
Oh wow! The video came through. I love it. No one would even think the drawer is there! Thanks for sharing.
?
Lucky
?
Lucky, as I further thought about my suggestion I realized it was lunacy. I think you are correct about returning to the horizontal setup. I know we are talking about
a lot of work for 280 repititions!?
I had a few do overs and re-designs as I progressed but ultimately was very happy with the result.?
To answer?your question, it is a drawer that holds DVD¡¯s on the bottom level, and Blu-rays on the top level as they are both different size cases. The drawer was incorporated
into a raised panel staircase I built 30 years earlier and had always planned to make a drawer similar.
There is hopefully an attached video below showing final install??
The CMT was excellent; best dado I ever had but I ran it on a cabinet saw, not on my K700S. I used a simple ¡°box joint jig¡± that we all learned in woodworking 101 but
made a mistake thinking I could do the sides separately and still have things line up. A couple of tries changing methodology were necessary. The drawer empty without the drawer front was over 75 lbs made of Maple. I used Blum slides (Blumotion) with ?¡°Tip-on¡±
added for push to open tech to eliminate visible exterior hardware.
?
On Tue, Jul 9, 2024 at 5:41?PM David
Luckensmeyer via <dhluckens=[email protected]> wrote:
Imran:
?
Thanks for your ideas. You¡¯re correct about the slotting blade. If I go the vertical machining route I¡¯ll need nearly every bit of the 400mm blade¡¯s
depth of cut. If I were to go back to the horizontal setup, I could remount the dado blade, set it to maximum height, and make a partial cut. This may well be a better solution because it gives me the exact width (to match the existing shallower trenches).
?
You have rightly identified the time-wasting point of needing to take two passes (minimum) and then deal with the waste by drilling a hole with a forstner
bit to get rid of the septum. I would then have to mark and chisel the waste which is fine for 1-10 joints, but not 280 trenches¡
?
Brian:
?
That looks awesome what you¡¯ve made. Is it a drawer insert for plates? I¡¯m very curious what you thought of the new CMT dado stack? What did you like?
What didn¡¯t you like? Thanks for sharing. I¡¯d rather not run two 400mm blades on the slider. So much to go wrong! EEK.
?
Joe:
?
Love those jigs. Pictures speak volumes. So many ideas to learn from. Thank you.
?
Methodology Quiz
How would you make 280 non-through cuts that have to be precisely machined at 125mm deep and 20mm wide?
?
-
Vertical method as discussed to date using the 400mm sawblade, to make two cuts to establish each shoulder, drilling out the waste, and then A) mark a line and use a chisel to square up the joint,
or B) use a router and small pattern bit to establish the shoulder and then chisel out the corners.
?
-
Horizontal method using the same dado stack that machined the shallow trenches, dado raised all the way up for the stopped cut, and then employ either option A or B above to clean up the joint.
?
-
Rely on the existing shoulders of the trenches (5mm deep on both sides), and use a router and pattern bit to obtain the 125mm ¡°half lap¡± joint, and then square up the joint using option A or B above.
?
-
Something else?
?
I personally can¡¯t see a way to avoid handwork of some kind. The reason why I favour the vertical method (as I¡¯m calling it) is because I can get precise
and square internal corners for the stopped cuts. I find it much easier to clean out the waste if the corners are already established. I have never liked chiselling corners square, even with a square chisel (e.g. Veritas). And I would
hate chiselling 560 corners!
?
Thanks in advance for your input,
Lucky
?
I have another more stable jig for demonstrating tenoning on the slider that could be adapted for this also.
?
|
Re: Cantilevered Lumber Storage Ideas
I had a nice cantilever rack from McMaster-Carr. ?
|
The parts were light enough to move by hand and it held plenty of lumber and plywood I even used one set of arms for the infeed to my cutoff saw. ?Access for the stacker to load and unload material from the rack was also good. ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jul 15, 2024, at 11:13?AM, mac campshure via groups.io <mac512002@...> wrote:
The racking I have is interlake
Designing and building for 50 years
On Jul 15, 2024, at 1:06?PM, mac campshure <mac512002@...> wrote:
?
I have the big heavy I beam stuff but I also have 80¡¯ 14¡¯ tall of pallet racking the ends are 1 ¡® deep ?with 3¡¯ arms two supports 1500#
Designing and building for 50 years
On Jul 15, 2024, at 12:34?PM, Brian Lamb via groups.io <blamb11@...> wrote:
?
Two 8' long pallet racks along each side and just span across them. You could put in as many cross members as levels you desire. That or Metro style racking and again, span between two units to create levels of storage.
Brian Lamb
blamb11@...
lambtoolworks.com
On Monday, July 15, 2024 at 10:05:15 AM MST, PK <pk@...> wrote:
On Saturday I was lucky enough to find a shop selling a stack of Walnut, Mahogany and White oak for an amazing price. I jumped at it and rented a 6x12 uhaul trailer. Upon arrival at the shop it was obvious that they had come into the wood for free and really had no way of using it in the cabinet business they had. They were making builder paint grade stuff.
It totally filled the 6x12 trailer. It is about 4000 pounds of lumber. When I got home I sorted it. These numbers are conservative:
- About 200 bdft of walnut - off cuts mostly and not very valuable IMHO - cutting board stuff
- About 600 bdft of 4/4 mahogany - nice, wide and clear some 16" widths
- About 100 bdft of 5/4 mahogany - nice, wide and clear
- About 350 bdft of 5/4 rift sawn white oak - really good stuff - a few 13" widths
- About 140 bdft of 4/4 rift sawn white oak - some skip planed
- About 25 bdft of 6/4 rift sawn white oak
I paid less than 10% of what it is worth in So Cal.
Now that the gloating is done, I need a way to store this.
I have a 10'x10' shed on a concrete pad that is 8' tall that is my wood storage. The traditional wall mounted racking will result in this sheds demise as it is not built to handle those loads. I have looked into the traditional 8' tall steel cantilevered rack. I can get it for about $1k locally with 4 adjustable shelves, and that may be a great investment. The drawback is that it is way over engineered for my use. the uprights are 10" deep and the bases are the same 10" tall. The shelves are only 4" thick.
Anyone have a better idea? I do not have a welder...
PK
Re: Cantilevered Lumber Storage Ideas
Just an idea....
Brian Lamb blamb11@... lambtoolworks.com
On Monday, July 15, 2024 at 01:18:12 PM MST, PK <pk@...> wrote:
Brian,
?
I had not though about it that way, but I need to store sheet goods etc in the space too.? The door is in the center of the gable wall and would allow longer pieces in, but not 12'.
?
I will think a bit more deeply about? that though.
?
PK
|
Re: Cantilevered Lumber Storage Ideas
Hey, you have a ton of lumber to build a bigger shed out of now...
--
Larry Long Neck
Just a noob trying to learn the ways of wood
Making youtube videos now!
-
|
Re: Cantilevered Lumber Storage Ideas
Brian,
?
I had not though about it that way, but I need to store sheet goods etc in the space too.? The door is in the center of the gable wall and would allow longer pieces in, but not 12'.
?
I will think a bit more deeply about? that though.
?
PK
|
Re: Cantilevered Lumber Storage Ideas
diagonal in a 10x10 should be slightly over 14'
Brian Lamb blamb11@... lambtoolworks.com
On Monday, July 15, 2024 at 12:13:02 PM MST, PK <pk@...> wrote:
Patrick,
It was a hot day (mid 90's) and the loading took me 1:45 in the morning. Then I pulled it out and stacked it in my garage which took over 2 hours. Somewhat delayed by the insanity of Saturday afternoon.
The bummer is, I will have to cut it all to under 112" to fit it in the shed. Most of it is 8' and 10', but a few are 12'. It is going to be a long day of cutting lumber.
PK
|
David Luckensmeyer
David P. Best
imran
Larry Long Neck
PK