Re: Hello From New Member
Welcome Barrie!?
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts and contributions.?
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Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
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Re: Kitchen Cabinet Standards
What blows my mind here is that I can order custom sized, dovetailed, hard maple, milled for undermount, drawer boxes for less than the cost of the materials to make melamine drawer boxes, not including labor.?
I suspect there's several factors going on here, everything from uninformed buyers, to buyers who own a very large home who want the fancy counter tops and paver driveway, but otherwise can't afford to furnish their large home with decent quality components. Some of these homes have three kitchens (one on each level). Quantity over quality.?
That being said, let's not forget that in addition to materials cost going through the roof, that labor is ferociously expensive, if you can find it. I received a quote to remove/replace the asphalt roof shingles on my modest 2 bedroom home, the (wholesale, contractor) price was in the ballpark of what a modest bathroom gut/remodel would cost at the beginning of my career.?
All that being said, I suspect these construction labor costs will become the new normal. We (the trades) lost a lot of people in 2007-2008, and I keep hearing that the average age of many licensed trades workers are in the 50s and 60s, which jives with my experience of seeing a lot of white- and silver- hair when my plumbers and electricians are on-site. I suspect that we have a generation or so to build back the labor pool, in the mean time I expect there will be a lot of folks experiencing some serious sticker shock when they see how expensive home improvement projects have become, never mind that many folks lack the basic skills to affect lasting, durable home repairs themselves.?
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Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
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I'm a new member of the group based in the UK.
I ?joined as I¡¯ve previously owned Felder machines and hope to use them again in my new workshop.?
In the short time I¡¯ve been a member I have been amazed by the help and support being offered. I¡¯m learning things I hadn¡¯t considered before! I¡¯m impressed that so many threads go beyond things to do with Felder machines. The recent debate about Fusion 360 and other competing CAD packages being a case in point.
I¡¯ll do my best to contribute whenever I can.?
Barrie Stott
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Thank you very much for these. Mike King Special Consultant NERA Economic Consulting +1 303 618-4915
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On Jun 27, 2022, at 6:19 PM, david@... via groups.io <david@...> wrote:
? The Fusion OEM video resources are here - I find them better suited as reference rather than training: ?
This is an introduction to the 3D modeling space of F360 geared to woodworkers: ?
This is a good video on the use of parameters to drive the design - also geared toward woodworkers: ?
This one is a good introduction to creating assemblies from multiple parts (components): ?? ?
None of the above are terrific as tutorials for ¡°follow-along¡± step-by-step learning. ?If you really want to learn the product with a good foundation, this woodworker in the UK has a series of videos that tackle the design of a complete wall unit using Fusion 360 starting from a base knowledge of essentially nothing about Fusion: ??
To ensure that I got a good fundamental base, I subscribed to training packages available from LinkedIn Learning. ? Specifically the following:
?
One thing that helped me tremendously is outfitting my computer with tools that create a friendly user interface. ?Specifically, a 3-button mouse with laser accurate pointing, and a 3D mouse (separate device operated by the ¡°other¡± hand) to rotate, pan, zoom, tilt, roll, the model in 3D space by minupulating a glorified joystick. ?These are the two products I recommend.
A CADMouse - one of these versions: ? A 3D Space Mouse - this version: ? ?
For those seeking to get educated in F360, I suggest going directly to the oem resources.....there are links in the onboarding emails,but also? a hierarchy of tutorial topics from developers of the product in bite sized packages and follow-along tutorials.
I'm not certain where it moved to in the newest updates, but I suspect it's easy to find under "help" once logged in. I remember that it is all locked behind your user login/password, you wont ever find it on a Google search.
Aside from spending a solid year developing expertise or the same following inefficient youtube ambassadors, I have found it the highest quality route. But that was before Best Services F360 Academy went public.
-Brett Mark, ? You're killing me. Dave Davies
David, nice looking cabinet for the multirouter, will the Pantorouter fit? ? I¡¯d be happy to do a series of videos on using F360 to design something to be fabricated in the wood shop.? I¡¯ve been thinking about doing this for a while.? I haven¡¯t found very many YouTube videos on F360 that are geared toward woodworkers - there are some, but they aren¡¯t very good training tools IMO, largely because they are based on the original User Interface from pre-2019.? When you try to duplicate what¡¯s being shown in the video, you quickly get lost because your user interface is different.
As James rightly points out, getting to an end result takes a lot more time if you are new to the product or restrict yourself to the basic facilities offered by Fusion.? To be truly efficient requires a broader knowledge of ?all the facilities within the Fusion Design space, which of course requires more than a rudimentary knowledge of how to brute-force a design with the attendent long time lines, etc.? Once you have the basics down, there are lots of video resources under the guise of ¡°Tips and Tricks¡± that explore the more advanced functions that are true time savers, which is largely how I advanced in my own knowledge.? But of course most of those videos are geared around a product to be CNC machined, or injection moulded, so it takes patience and some time doing trial and error tests to figure out how they might apply to woodworking.
I ?just finished designing and building a custom cabinet for my Multirouter (photo below), and if some of you think it would be helpful if I made a video of the design process for the cabinet in Fusion 360, I would consider doing so.? More details on that Multirouter project are here if anyone is interested, including F360 drawings for both the DRO enhancements and the cabinet. ? The project is still being enhanced with air cylinders and dust extraction, so more to come on that.
??? ?
<Multirouter copy.jpg>
The animation and drawing sections of Fusion 360 all extract from the 3D models, and if I did some videos here I would take an existing model and go through the steps of animating it to produce and exploded view, and then go into the drawing section and show how to achieve all the relevent views, parts lists, dimensions, etc.? Like I said 2 years ago, this is a long process to get your head around all the capabilities here, and you have to use it a few times per year (IMO) to stay proficient - this isn¡¯t an application you can come back to after 3 years in a closet and expect to be proficient. ??
So, splitting some of the discussion apart, let¡¯s chat about Fusion 360.? Here¡¯s a couple of items hopefully David Best will answer, or someone with a similar level of proficiency:
- Are there any good recommendations for a course in Fusion that will transform me into a Fusion master?
- Why when I try to go from my model through annimations to drawings do the dimensions change?? How do I get them not to do so?
- What¡¯s the best way to produce drawings from a model?
- How do we convince David to produce a series of videos on Fusion?
Mike
--
Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
|
Re: Kitchen Cabinet Standards
Yes Mark, all true. The average person here now will be lucky to ever afford a home of whatever quality level. My objection is to what builders do on even a high dollar custom build. As David mentioned, there are some awfully suspect products and practices being used. Cardboard cladding is a new low. What buyers don¡¯t see is where the problems lie.?
I absolutely agree that money does not equal taste. I too have seen some high dollar builds that belong on a bombing range.?
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Hi Bill. Did you have any problems with the hinge moving when you loosen the four bolts below the hinge? This has me dumbfounded.??
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Guess I missed the original conversation.? Just ordered a Onefinity Journeyman CNC and was back into cad/design software for it.? I also have 4 3D printers as well.? Currently I¡¯m looking at Vectric Aspire for the CNC but both 3D printer and CNC communities (at least more hobbiest not commercial CNC guys) are big fans of F360. Would love videos on vcarve inlay and such with it, as satiated above there are very few F360 videos out there for woodworkers.?
Ray
So, splitting some of the discussion apart, let¡¯s chat about Fusion 360.? Here¡¯s a couple of items hopefully David Best will answer, or someone with a similar level of proficiency:
- Are there any good recommendations for a course in Fusion that will transform me into a Fusion master?
- Why when I try to go from my model through annimations to drawings do the dimensions change?? How do I get them not to do so?
- What¡¯s the best way to produce drawings from a model?
- How do we convince David to produce a series of videos on Fusion?
Mike
|
Mark, I am not surprised that aerospace and industrial users developed CAD first. Few others could afford, or had the skills to operate, the mainframe computers needed.
When CAD became available on personal computers it really took off, at least for companies like mine. We started using them in late ¡®82 or in ¡®83, if I recall correctly. Yes it was amazingly crude, and management resisted, but it was an irresistible force. For a long time CAD for most engineers was just a better way to create drawings, although now we can give contractors the design files to use in construction.
My son just graduated with an engineering degree. I wonder what tools he will use 30 years from now.
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John Hinman
Boise ID
K700S and A941
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Hi Tom, thanks for the reply. The machine was built in 2017. The tables started out with the infeed table dropping dramatically at the end where the fence rail attaches. I started trying to fix things by using a dial indicator and leveling the outfeed table to the cutter head. Next, I raised the infeed table to start dead perfect with the outfeed table using a straight edge and feeler gauges. Everything I have read said to start on the hinge side by loosening the four bolts below the hinge and adjusting two set crews on the hinge. One is on the top left of the hinge and the other under the back hinge cover. The problems really started when I loosened the for bolts under the hinge the entire infeed table shifted back. When the bolts are loose the weight of the infeed table moves the entire hinge around in the frame. I have to push up on the outfeed table to shift the hinge back, then try and tighten it while holding the table up. I can look and sometimes the two grub screws aren't even touching the frame. After 12 hours and one busted finger, I'm getting desperate.?
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Mark just for perspective my Cad tube at work is 10k, (so the cost has come way down?) not sure how many we have but has to be 300-500. We also have some super powerful ones (whatever that means?) that we run FEA, our company uses NX (Unigraphics) and it is fully customized for mold, injection molding machine design we have an entire cad/cam dept to support NX all of the designs are kept in team center which i think more complicated to use than the dang program
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On Jun 27, 2022, at 8:41 PM, mark thomas <murkyd@...> wrote:
? John, before Autocad and Intergraph became dominant, there was CADAM, Cadance, CATIA, CALMA, Unigraphics, and more¡ The first gen of CAD was made in-house by the aerospace companies and big car companies, then they sold the stuff on the open market. ?I started with Unigraphics (McDonald Douglas) when a single workstation circa 1987 cost about $100k. It was amazingly crude by today¡¯s standards, but I did 3D models including shaded rendering back then. ?It was unbelievably advanced at the time. ?A couple of the modern software are direct descendants of that era (Solidworks for example) but most of those bit the dust by the late 90¡¯s.
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Re: Kitchen Cabinet Standards
It¡¯s easy to be dismissive of crappy construction, but it¡¯s also a huge industry that provides gainful employment for millions of people and makes home ownership accessible to millions of people that could never afford what many FOG members would consider ¡°quality¡±. It¡¯s also an industry that makes some super-rich, and the merely rich somewhat richer ?(wall-street, large national building company execs, private equity firms) ?Same principle applies to Walmart. ?Perhaps Walmart consumers are not sufficiently discriminating for some of us,?but about 100 million people can own stuff today (of second rate quality) that two generations ago they wouldn¡¯t have been able to own at all. That¡¯s not all bad.?
On a slight tangent, how about the fact that so many financially well off people who can afford quality have such terrible taste!? ?I see a lot $5m homes that you couldn¡¯t pay me to live in!
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Correction I have NOT been able to get the outfeed table adjusted so far (sorry for the missed word and confusion Bill
On Monday, June 27, 2022, 08:08:33 PM CDT, Bill Rosenthal <bcrosenthal@...> wrote:
The timing on this could not be better. I also need alot of advise on my 2021 A3-31 Table adjustments I face-timed with a tech and received some help there but I am not making much progress. My goal is to eliminate the sprung joint to achieve a flat, square jointed board on all four sides.? I have been able to get the outfeed table adjusted so far.
Bill?
On Monday, June 27, 2022, 07:45:06 PM CDT, <tom@...> wrote:
Hi Chad, welcome to the Forum!!
Congrats on your new machine, hopefully you can get it dialed-in properly soon.?
Some additional information would be helpful, such as:
-- Build year??
-- What have you tried?
-- In what manner are the beds out of alignment (in what direction are they not coplanar)??
I have a 2020 A3-41 and the Felder technician was able to do a pretty good job walking me through the alignment process over the phone, hopefully saving you a tech visit. There are some talented members here with a lot of experience dialing-in these machines, so if you can provide as much information as possible it'll be helpful to guide you on your way.?
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
|
The timing on this could not be better. I also need alot of advise on my 2021 A3-31 Table adjustments I face-timed with a tech and received some help there but I am not making much progress. My goal is to eliminate the sprung joint to achieve a flat, square jointed board on all four sides.? I have been able to get the outfeed table adjusted so far.
Bill?
On Monday, June 27, 2022, 07:45:06 PM CDT, <tom@...> wrote:
Hi Chad, welcome to the Forum!!
Congrats on your new machine, hopefully you can get it dialed-in properly soon.?
Some additional information would be helpful, such as:
-- Build year??
-- What have you tried?
-- In what manner are the beds out of alignment (in what direction are they not coplanar)??
I have a 2020 A3-41 and the Felder technician was able to do a pretty good job walking me through the alignment process over the phone, hopefully saving you a tech visit. There are some talented members here with a lot of experience dialing-in these machines, so if you can provide as much information as possible it'll be helpful to guide you on your way.?
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
|
Well, not written in stone¡ but this is prominently on their webpage¡ ¡°Buy it once, own it forever¡±??
This has been the case since I originally purchased it back in 2010 or so, I¡¯d probably still be using that version except I had to upgrade when about the time Windows 10 came out they couldn¡¯t provide the old copies of the software on their servers any longer, so if you lost your hard drive, you were done. They offered a good deal on the upgrade for old legacy users so I did that.
I¡¯ve done multiple classes with our local machine shop club on this software and we kind of have an ¡°in¡± at Alibre, as we purchased a good 20 seats or more individually at the time. They have been a good company to deal with and have the definite attitude of no subscription charges.
Like you say, that could all change, but it hasn¡¯t yet in the past 12 years or so. I¡¯ll cross my fingers¡.
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On Jun 27, 2022, at 5:19 PM, mark thomas < murkyd@...> wrote:
Brian, enjoy the perpetual license while it lasts, which won¡¯t be long! ?All software companies have learned that subscriptions are more profitable and they are rapidly moving that way, not just for cloud software but for desktop software as well. In my day job I spend millions on enterprise business software every year (including CAD) and in the last 2-3 years almost every vendor I¡¯ve dealt with has stopped new sales of perpetual licenses. ?Within 3-5 years I bet there will be virtually zero software sold that way.
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Hi Chad, welcome to the Forum!!
Congrats on your new machine, hopefully you can get it dialed-in properly soon.?
Some additional information would be helpful, such as:
-- Build year??
-- What have you tried?
-- In what manner are the beds out of alignment (in what direction are they not coplanar)??
I have a 2020 A3-41 and the Felder technician was able to do a pretty good job walking me through the alignment process over the phone, hopefully saving you a tech visit. There are some talented members here with a lot of experience dialing-in these machines, so if you can provide as much information as possible it'll be helpful to guide you on your way.?
--
Tom Gensmer
Heritage Home Renewals, LLC
Minneapolis, MN
|
Thanks David. I ordered the pad earlier today from Amazon. I can¡¯t recall all diff projects I used my test set of Mirka Abranet but I do not recall tearing any. I did use it with protector net and since then forgot that it is needed with mesh types.
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On Jun 27, 2022, at 8:09 PM, David Sabo via groups.io <sabo_dave@...> wrote: ?1. Mesh discs are simply less robust at the periphery than fabric or paper backed discs. They also are not as tough on really rough boards or easing corners or if they hit a nail or screw.
2. That protection pad you linked is MANDATORY with mesh discs. ?So order some TODAY ! ???If you don¡¯t , you¡¯ll end up buying a new festool 125mm backer pad for your sander within a couple of hours use. ?Perhaps minutes depending on your project and technique. ???And most ft pads are around 50bucks. ?
Sent from my iEye
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John, before Autocad and Intergraph became dominant, there was CADAM, Cadance, CATIA, CALMA, Unigraphics, and more¡ The first gen of CAD was made in-house by the aerospace companies and big car companies, then they sold the stuff on the open market. ?I started with Unigraphics (McDonald Douglas) when a single workstation circa 1987 cost about $100k. It was amazingly crude by today¡¯s standards, but I did 3D models including shaded rendering back then. ?It was unbelievably advanced at the time. ?A couple of the modern software are direct descendants of that era (Solidworks for example) but most of those bit the dust by the late 90¡¯s.
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Hello, this is my first time posting here. I have dreamed of an a3-41 planer jointer for a couple of years. Last week I found a used one at a good price and purchased it. The jointer beds weren't co-plainer, but I have tuned a couple of jointers in the past and thought this would not be a problem. Boy was I dead wrong. I have read everything I can find and watched the one video I could find but I can not get the machine even close to co-planer. If anyone within a 250-mile radius of Laurel, MS has any experience with these machines, I would love to hire them to help me get my machine working. I will pay up to $1000 and bring the machine to your shop if Laurel is to away. I am close to New Orleans, Mobile, Jackson, and will drive to Birmingham. A Felder tech will cost close to 3k and I can't quite swing that. Any help will be greatly appreciated.?
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Brian, enjoy the perpetual license while it lasts, which won¡¯t be long! ?All software companies have learned that subscriptions are more profitable and they are rapidly moving that way, not just for cloud software but for desktop software as well. In my day job I spend millions on enterprise business software every year (including CAD) and in the last 2-3 years almost every vendor I¡¯ve dealt with has stopped new sales of perpetual licenses. ?Within 3-5 years I bet there will be virtually zero software sold that way.
|
The Fusion OEM video resources are here - I find them better suited as reference rather than training: ?
This is an introduction to the 3D modeling space of F360 geared to woodworkers: ?
This is a good video on the use of parameters to drive the design - also geared toward woodworkers: ?
This one is a good introduction to creating assemblies from multiple parts (components): ?? ?
None of the above are terrific as tutorials for ¡°follow-along¡± step-by-step learning. ?If you really want to learn the product with a good foundation, this woodworker in the UK has a series of videos that tackle the design of a complete wall unit using Fusion 360 starting from a base knowledge of essentially nothing about Fusion: ??
To ensure that I got a good fundamental base, I subscribed to training packages available from LinkedIn Learning. ? Specifically the following:
?
One thing that helped me tremendously is outfitting my computer with tools that create a friendly user interface. ?Specifically, a 3-button mouse with laser accurate pointing, and a 3D mouse (separate device operated by the ¡°other¡± hand) to rotate, pan, zoom, tilt, roll, the model in 3D space by minupulating a glorified joystick. ?These are the two products I recommend.
A CADMouse - one of these versions: ? A 3D Space Mouse - this version: ? ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
For those seeking to get educated in F360, I suggest going directly to the oem resources.....there are links in the onboarding emails,but also? a hierarchy of tutorial topics from developers of the product in bite sized packages and follow-along tutorials.
I'm not certain where it moved to in the newest updates, but I suspect it's easy to find under "help" once logged in. I remember that it is all locked behind your user login/password, you wont ever find it on a Google search.
Aside from spending a solid year developing expertise or the same following inefficient youtube ambassadors, I have found it the highest quality route. But that was before Best Services F360 Academy went public.
-Brett Mark, ? You're killing me. Dave Davies
David, nice looking cabinet for the multirouter, will the Pantorouter fit? ? I¡¯d be happy to do a series of videos on using F360 to design something to be fabricated in the wood shop.? I¡¯ve been thinking about doing this for a while.? I haven¡¯t found very many YouTube videos on F360 that are geared toward woodworkers - there are some, but they aren¡¯t very good training tools IMO, largely because they are based on the original User Interface from pre-2019.? When you try to duplicate what¡¯s being shown in the video, you quickly get lost because your user interface is different.
As James rightly points out, getting to an end result takes a lot more time if you are new to the product or restrict yourself to the basic facilities offered by Fusion.? To be truly efficient requires a broader knowledge of ?all the facilities within the Fusion Design space, which of course requires more than a rudimentary knowledge of how to brute-force a design with the attendent long time lines, etc.? Once you have the basics down, there are lots of video resources under the guise of ¡°Tips and Tricks¡± that explore the more advanced functions that are true time savers, which is largely how I advanced in my own knowledge.? But of course most of those videos are geared around a product to be CNC machined, or injection moulded, so it takes patience and some time doing trial and error tests to figure out how they might apply to woodworking.
I ?just finished designing and building a custom cabinet for my Multirouter (photo below), and if some of you think it would be helpful if I made a video of the design process for the cabinet in Fusion 360, I would consider doing so.? More details on that Multirouter project are here if anyone is interested, including F360 drawings for both the DRO enhancements and the cabinet. ? The project is still being enhanced with air cylinders and dust extraction, so more to come on that.
??? ?
<Multirouter copy.jpg>
The animation and drawing sections of Fusion 360 all extract from the 3D models, and if I did some videos here I would take an existing model and go through the steps of animating it to produce and exploded view, and then go into the drawing section and show how to achieve all the relevent views, parts lists, dimensions, etc.? Like I said 2 years ago, this is a long process to get your head around all the capabilities here, and you have to use it a few times per year (IMO) to stay proficient - this isn¡¯t an application you can come back to after 3 years in a closet and expect to be proficient. ??
So, splitting some of the discussion apart, let¡¯s chat about Fusion 360.? Here¡¯s a couple of items hopefully David Best will answer, or someone with a similar level of proficiency:
- Are there any good recommendations for a course in Fusion that will transform me into a Fusion master?
- Why when I try to go from my model through annimations to drawings do the dimensions change?? How do I get them not to do so?
- What¡¯s the best way to produce drawings from a model?
- How do we convince David to produce a series of videos on Fusion?
Mike
--
Dave & Marie Davies
318-219-7868
|
Tom Gensmer
Barrie Stott
imran
David P. Best