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Re: Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
It looks like this thread is hijacked towards cars.
I am in the market for a car and the new Audi Q7 has very good test reports. Do any of you have experience with Audi that is relevant to their newer cars?
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On Dec 4, 2016, at 10:27 AM, David Kumm davekumm@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
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Re: Automatic Dust Collector & Blast Gate Controller
Hi Denis,
I gave not played with it but I would start with mounting thd accelerometer on the motor housing. I assume most of the motion would be along the rotational axis. If accelerometer does not work, one can still sense the motor current but use a wireless communication. Dan's design is solid and should be able to accommodate diff Amperage motors with "relatively" minor tweaks. 1. Sensors with different transfer functions (essentially diff no. of turns on pickup coil) can be used on different motors. 2. Signal can be attenuated with different resistance values, selectable via dip switches. Or for fancier version the micro can select the attenuation. Right now, I have too much going on to work on such project but I certainly would enjoy working out the details. |
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nearing completion base unit
Cliff
I started this a while back. I took down a norway maple tree
on the property. This is made from that tree. There's a forced hot water toe kick heater on it's on zone with
a wireless thermostat and I'm going to make the molding to go
around the base. Originall y there was not going to be a molding
on the base but the house is over 250 years old and the floors
are anything but flat and level and it was either lift it little
and put molding under or start marking and sawing on the
baseboard. I chose the former. Here is the base unit The upper unit is still in design phase
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Re: Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
One last digression as well. The new 7 series BMW is a really nice ride. In a year or two it would have been on my list as they are taking a beating on the used market here. Seems they were expected to jump ahead more of the W222 S class redone in 2014
. The redesigned A8L will be out next spring so that may become the pick of the litter. Dave From: felder-woodworking@... on behalf of patrick walsh pwalsh651@... [felder-woodworking]
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 4:20 PM To: felder-woodworking@... Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit After my last post i though i should had mentioned i have never driven or owneda Mercedes Gullwing or AMG anything of that caliber. Maybe i just dont knw what i dont know?I have been in many top of the line S500 Mercedes and always felt a 700 series BMW was a muchnicer car. I digress, i should finish my originalthought.Ihave alao neverseen aKapa 500 or Format anything in person. Soin all fairness maybe my comparison is not up to snuff. I have always felt though that for the same money spent on a Mercedes you could get a much more refined machine in a BMW. Again things change and maybe in the last ten years the scales have tipped out of the favor of BMW.
Anyway this is not what this thread is about. I suppose i just wish to own a slider period ;)
On Sunday, December 4, 2016, 'James Baker' jamesbaker1@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
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Re: Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
Glen:David references me with regard to the x-roll outrigger, so I thought I would add my vote for that option. It is exceptionally desirable and I love that feature. I’m perhaps a little stronger than average, and I can say that the Kappa 400 crosscut fence, with 3 x DRO stops is very heavy. It is too heavy to remove and install easily and regularly. I have the outrigger cart, and although it is possible to get the outrigger and the fence onto the cart, the result is so heavy and ungainly that I wouldn’t do that (I did it once!). Instead, when I take the outrigger off, I grab a blanket, take the crosscut fence off (which is quite easy except for the weight), and lay it on the floor. Better would be to have a dedicated spot on the wall for it. I then remove the outrigger and store on the cart. Incidentally, I love the DRO system on the crosscut fence so much that I use the Kappa 400 exclusively with the outrigger installed. The only reason I take off the fence is to eek out a little more length for straight-line rips on the slider. Back to the x-roll outrigger option. In order to change the angle on the crosscut fence, I need to loosen the fence at the pivot point on the slider end of the fence. As you all likely know, this simply involves loosening a knob underneath the outrigger. I then loosen a locking knob on the little x-roll table built into the outrigger, and physically push the fence to the desired angle. To be clear, there is a second “pivot� point in the little x-roll table on which the fence rides. Since the table moves (parallel to the main x-roll sliding table), I can move the fence through any angle up to 46 degrees, as the little x-roll table slides withthe fence. Once I’m at the desired position, I simply lock the fence and go for it. Three more points: The x-roll table on the outrigger has a fine adjustment knob which is keyed into the x-roll table such that I can dial in the precise angle I want. I could use the adjustment knob to move the fence from 90 degrees to the target angle, but I find the best procedure is to push the fence in gross movements so that I’m close, and then grab the adjustment knob and go for those last few tenths of a degree. How do I dial in for those last few tenths of a degree? Well, when you option the x-roll outrigger, you get a digital readout for the angle. I love that! My mitres now look pretty good since I can specify 45.3 degrees, to make sure the joint is closed on the outside. I did not get the automatic length compensation feature for my crosscut fence on the outrigger. It is a nice feature and would be wonderful if I were cutting mitres all the time. In reality, I very rarely cut mitres, and when I do I just sneak up on the length of cut like everyone else. I don’t regret not having the compensation feature. Lucky
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Re: New C3-41 owner
HI,
I have a 2000 C3-31, a combnation machine. I love that machine, but the rip fence and the mitre gauge were not usable, at all, I replaced both. If you have a similar machine the fence rail primary attachment is to the joiner table, so it detaches from a support point near the blade and rotates past vertical when you flip up the forward joiner bed to convert to thickness planing. Does this sound familar? If so I can walk you through my conversion which works great. I feel that a Unifence, IF you can find one of these discontinued fences, is perfect for the upgrade. Brian(J) |
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Re: Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
patrick walsh
After my last post i though i should had mentioned i have never driven or owneda Mercedes Gullwing or AMG anything of that caliber. Maybe i just dont knw what i dont know?I have been in many top of the line S500 Mercedes and always felt a 700 series BMW was a muchnicer car. I digress, i should finish my originalthought.Ihave alao neverseen aKapa 500 or Format anything in person. Soin all fairness maybe my comparison is not up to snuff.
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I have always felt though that for the same money spent on a Mercedes you could get a much more refined machine in a BMW. Again things change and maybe in the last ten years the scales have tipped out of the favor of BMW. Anyway this is not what this thread is about. I suppose i just wish to own a slider period ;) On Sunday, December 4, 2016, 'James Baker' jamesbaker1@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
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Re: Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
There are multiple James answering this thread, but I have the 173, nothing digital on my saw, all cursor and eyeball settings. From: felder-woodworking@... [mailto:felder-woodworking@...]
Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 10:17 PM To: felder-woodworking@... Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
Interesting. The Felder configurator won't let you pick the digital cross cut option (#171) if you pick the precision miter option with length compensation (#173): |
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Re: Automatic Dust Collector & Blast Gate Controller
Certainly possible. The Arduino world has lots of breakout boards for wifi and bluetooth, and replacing the wires with these devices could be slick. I'd set this up so each machine has a unique identifier and sends a "I'm now off / I'm now on" signal to a central hub. Similarly, the hub would send a "open / close" command to the appropriate blast gate, again with a unique identifier.
Only real downside to the wireless solution is cost, as each machine and gate would need is own arduino board with wifi/bluetooth and a battery supply. Dan |
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Re: Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
I would agree with John as long as you can see with magnification as the sacles are you will be with in a few 10 ths of a mm. It real comes down to being a precise builder. You can have all the fancy digital stuff and if you dont put the part in the right place and hold it correctly you will still end up with scrap. Dro for mills and lathes in metal working, a no brainier when you making a fit and need to be within a few thou. In wood it moves more than that when you blow on it. martin/campshure/co/llc mac campshure 7412 elmwood ave. middleton, wi 53562-3106 608-332-2330 cell 608-824-0023 fax
Designing and building for 46 years From: "John Kee jmkserv@... [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@...> To: FOG Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit Felders scales and angle marks are extremely accurate on the no options fences and outriggers. If you have an issue with understanding fractions or have bad eyesight then I could see a need. The digital readouts and computer controlled stuff is a bunch of fluff and extra cost just waiting to give aggravation on a sliding saw, IMHO as I have stated before. With the actual markings you always know what the measurement is not a digital screen with electronics that can go wrong without you knowing. Can it speed up operations with an operator that knows the machine and actually do math in their head, doubtful. When I set my saw to cut 23 1/4" by the good old scale it cuts 23 1/4" and I can set and reset that measurement all day and get the same exact measurement. This applies not only to short pieces but full length cuts in 5' x 10' sheets of material. Just a little food for thought from someone thats uses his equipment everyday to make a living and may not be applicable in your given situation. I like the extra budget to by really useful additions like saw blades, parallel guides and with the price of some of the options, complete machines. Now where I do find the digital readout extremely useful is the Powerdrive option available for the shapers and J/P's. Not so hot on the digidrive, too many buttons and isn't straight forward enough. Just so you also know the angle scale with the pin stops is available as a separate part and is really no issue to install and setup and is completely adjustable if needed. Have fun woodworking. On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 9:48 AM, James Zhu james.zhu2@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
John Kee
JMK Services |
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Re: Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
Felders scales and angle marks are extremely accurate on the no options fences and outriggers. If you have an issue with understanding fractions or have bad eyesight then I could see a need. The digital readouts and computer controlled stuff is a bunch of fluff and extra cost just waiting to give aggravation on a sliding saw, IMHO as I have stated before. With the actual markings you always know what the measurement is not a digital screen with electronics that can go wrong without you knowing. Can it speed up operations with an operator that knows the machine and actually do math in their head, doubtful. When I set my saw to cut 23 1/4" by the good old scale it cuts 23 1/4" and I can set and reset that measurement all day and get the same exact measurement. This applies not only to short pieces but full length cuts in 5' x 10' sheets of material. Just a little food for thought from someone thats uses his equipment everyday to make a living and may not be applicable in your given situation. I like the extra budget to by really useful additions like saw blades, parallel guides and with the price of some of the options, complete machines. Now where I do find the digital readout extremely useful is the Powerdrive option available for the shapers and J/P's. Not so hot on the digidrive, too many buttons and isn't straight forward enough. Just so you also know the angle scale with the pin stops is available as a separate part and is really no issue to install and setup and is completely adjustable if needed. Have fun woodworking. On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 9:48 AM, James Zhu james.zhu2@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
John Kee
JMK Services |
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Re: Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
The cost of restoring or modifying cars is what led me into rehabbing old machines. Easier and way cheaper. Dave From: felder-woodworking@... on behalf of garrisonstuber@... [felder-woodworking]
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 12:35 PM To: felder-woodworking@... Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit I figured it was the fact that I'm *not* into cars that lets me spend money on high-quality woodworking tools. :) |
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Re: Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
I agree that the low end Mercedes is not what I'd spend for. I don't use or like half the electronics on any of them and am strictly a buy the large sedan I like to drive the best- and what can be found that is 2 years old, tricked out and under 5K in miles.
I've had most all of them and like every machine I've owned, it could be better. Dave From: felder-woodworking@... on behalf of patrick walsh pwalsh651@... [felder-woodworking]
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 10:52 AM To: felder-woodworking@... Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit I used to bereally into German cars. I ownedMostly BMW but also one Audi and one Mercedes. This was ten years ago now. I owned six BMW's in that time all the way from a 318i to a Near new M3. By far the Mercedes was the biggest piece of crap car i ever owned. For point of refernce i now own a Nissan Frontier and althought the trim is plastic it is a very reliable and well built vehicle.
Bellow every surface of that Mercedes was plastic. From a engineering perspective the car handled like crap also. Ifyou know anything about cars and put your head under the hood you would quickly understand why! Everything was bottom of th barrel.Now
this was a C class but still a Mercedes non the less. I had a Jetta that was by far superior with regard to quality of build regarding both engineeiring and fit and finish.
I would say Felder is like a nice VW imop... Maybe mid range A4?
On Sunday, December 4, 2016, James Zhu james.zhu2@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
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Re: Automatic Dust Collector & Blast Gate Controller
Hi Imran,
Where would you put the accelerometer? One of the pulleys? Any products like that out there?
This actually sounds nice. If you need programming support I can help. Regards, Denis |
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Re: Automatic Dust Collector & Blast Gate Controller
Nicely done Dan. I have thought of a similar device like Brian mentions but never acted upon it due to lack of time.
For me the system has to be wireless for easy instal. My thoughts on machine turn-on detection was a accelerometer mounted on the machine with a Bluetooth transmitter. This transmitter (there can be multiple of these) coupled with an aurdino based Bluetooth receiver that controls dust collector (this can remain RF as mechanism is already in place) and blast gates could make a wireless system hat should be easy to install. |
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Re: Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
patrick walsh
I used to bereally into German cars. I ownedMostly BMW but also one Audi and one Mercedes. This was ten years ago now. I owned six BMW's in that time all the way from a 318i to a Near new M3.
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By far the Mercedes was the biggest piece of crap car i ever owned. For point of refernce i now own a Nissan Frontier and althought the trim is plastic it is a very reliable and well built vehicle. Bellow every surface of that Mercedes was plastic. From a engineering perspective the car handled like crap also. Ifyou know anything about cars and put your head under the hood you would quickly understand why! Everything was bottom of th barrel.Now this was a C class but still a Mercedes non the less. I had a Jetta that was by far superior with regard to quality of build regarding both engineeiring and fit and finish. I would say Felder is like a nice VW imop... Maybe mid range A4? On Sunday, December 4, 2016, James Zhu james.zhu2@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> wrote:
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Re: Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
I have precision miter with length compensation. James
Interesting. The Felder configurator won't let you pick the digital cross cut option (#171) if you pick the precision miter option with length compensation (#173): |
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Re: Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
If you mainly cut sheet goods, and need to cut miter or another angle, then precision miter attachment is what you need, cause EGL or DGL has length limit. Yes, you can easily switch between metric and imperial. I already switch to metric, much easy and makes life simple. James
Thanks James, and thank you for the numbers on the scoring motor as well. I'm still not sure how much cross cutting I'm going to do on this machine, other than panels. I get spot on repeatable cross cuts with my collection well tuned vintage DeWalt radial saws. The only problem is that slicing up a 4x8 sheet on them sucks. With the right blade (negative hook) and adjustments you can safely rip, but it's awkward and the dust collection is abysmal. My primary focus for this machine will be sheet goods, ripping (though I do a lot of that on my bandsaw), and shaping. That said, the DROs may still be very useful for setting up for sheet goods. |
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Re: Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit
Felder is no where near Bentley. A few years ago I got an Audi A8L, pretty decked out and felt pretty special. Parked it in a ramp for a Badger game ( only ramp it ever saw ) and thought I had the coolest car there. Came back out to find a new Flying Spur, black like mine, right next to it. Not even close. Totally deflating. I've got an S550 now and waiting for a Bentley to show up and make me look bad. Which it will. Dave
________________________________ From: felder-woodworking@... <felder-woodworking@...> on behalf of 'david@bestservices IMAP 2' david@... [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...> Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 5:03 AM To: felder-woodworking@... Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit Hi Julie, nice to read your note, and thanks for the clarification. So I went to my stash of catalogs from Felder (the most recent one I have is 2012) - beginning to wonder if Id lost my mind. In the section on the KF700, in the configurator, there is option 212 listed which reads Tilting bracket for power feeder (with standard models this is not possible with a 1300mm outrigger table).� So I did have it wrong, the exception (back then?) applied to the 1300mm outrigger table not the 1500, and I apologize for stirring up this controversy. But I am comforted that I havent lost my mind completely, there was some kind of mechanical interference, I just remembered wrong. I'm not loosing my mind after all. Youd tell me if I were - right? Now that were in the post truth� era here in the USA, everything is suspect. What a bewildering time - I was expecting Alzheimer's to set in and instead I get post truth era." Hows Brexit working out for ya on your side of the pond? :-) As for the Benz reference, youre completely right, and Ill quote Colonel Pickering speaking to Henry Higgins: Come sir, perhaps youve picked a bad example.� Im no longer a Benz fan either - most expensive maintenance headache ever. Perhaps Bentley would have been a fairer comparison. :-) David Best PS: When I had a KF700 with tilt-away bracket, I found it really helped the rotational effort to put the feeder in a position where the center of gravity was most neutral. This is the position I found worked best - youve probably already discovered this, but for those who havent: I see now that Felder offers a gas strut assisted feeder bracket. They ripped that design off a FOG member. Shame ! [cid:907A3C1A-C2C6-44D1-BD23-55AE8C463967] On Dec 3, 2016, at 11:58 PM, JULIE DENNING julie.denning1@...<mailto:julie.denning1@...> [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...<mailto:felder-woodworking@...>> wrote: David, A couple of points. I have a 2008 KF700SP with 1500 outrigger, F38 power feeder and tilt away bracket. Due to space constraints I only mount the outrigger when I need it, but I haven't been aware of any conflict with the power feeder. I've checked the 2008 catalogue and haven't spotted any warning to that effect. I do, however, struggle with the power feeder tilt away for other reasons. For me, it's heavy. (I must investigate adding an assistance strut.) Also, again due to other space constraints around the machine, I have to find a sweet spot for positioning the power feeder before lowering it. You say " Youre about to drop coin equivalent to a new Benz". As the owner of products from each of these manufacturers, I must protest this comparison on behalf of Felder! I don't mind paying a quality price for a quality product, but object when I think I'm only getting the wrong half of that deal. Since buying my KF700 I've made two other, for me, pricey purchases from Felder, but I doubt I'll ever buy another Mercedes. Julie ________________________________ From: "'david@bestservices IMAP 2' david@...<mailto:david@...> [felder-woodworking]" <felder-woodworking@...<mailto:felder-woodworking@...>> To: felder-woodworking@...<mailto:felder-woodworking@...> Sent: Sunday, 4 December 2016, 4:36 Subject: Re: [felder-woodworking] Thoughts on the precision miter option and scoring unit Michael, Let me clarify a few things. I assume you are considering mechanical scoring because of your off-the-grid power consumption limits. If you have the power for electronic scoring (its a separate motor), and dont mind spending the additional for it, then its clearly a better choice - even if you dont use scoring a lot, it will enhance the resale value appreciably. There is absolutely no excuse that your Felder sales rep cant or won't research the answer to your question about the KF700 mechanical scoring. Call Fergus Cook at the Felder Sacramento office and ask him to clarify the mechanical scoring option operation. If you dont get satisfaction from Fergus, let me know and Ill text Hansjrg Felder directly. Youre about to drop coin equivalent to a new Benz - you should be able to get answers and your sales rep should be willing to do the homework to satisfy your questions before you buy. PERIOD. On the subject of Precision Miter Guide, let me clarify - as its value to you has everything to do with what kind of work you expect to do. If you plan on doing a lot of crosscut miters for things like mitered face frames, picture frames, mitered window/door frames, mitered raised panel doors, the precision miter guide option might be very valuable to you - especially if youre working from dimensioned drawings where you know the precise length of the part youre trying to miter. If youre planning to do a lot of smaller (under ~36�) picture frames or mitered raised panel doors or other similar joinery, you might actually be better off with the DGL or EGL. In my own workflow, I have observed that when I want to angle the crosscut fence, 95 percent of the time I either want 45-degrees or some other angle which the precision miter guide doesnt index, and I find the peg that extends below the crosscut fence a total pain in the ass to index to the slots on the precision miter guide, so I removed the peg. I can consistently position the crosscut fence at 45-degrees using the markings on the the top of the crossbar. My crosscut fence is twice the weight of what yours will be (because its digital), and that has an influence on my frustration level with the indexing system as well. I also have the benefit of owning an EGL, so if Im going to be doing a lot of mitering work, cutting to known lengths, Ill drop on the EGL. I too would be interested to hear from other K/KF700 owners with precision miter guide just how often they use/need it and if they find it cumbersome to use. One other word of caution. If you plan to use the shaper much, youll want a power feeder. Such power feeder would mount on the tilt-away bracket that attaches to the back edge of the cast iron top of the machine. You can order the bracket later when you get the feeder. However, as recently as 3 years ago, the tilt away bracket could not be used in conjunction with the 1500 outrigger because the telescoping support arm for the outrigger table would bind on the inverted power feeder. This may have changed - I dont know, but you should know, and if its true, and you expect to use a power feeder, you would be better off with the 1300 outrigger. David Best On Dec 3, 2016, at 6:18 PM, garrisonstuber@...<mailto:garrisonstuber@...> [felder-woodworking] <felder-woodworking@...<mailto:felder-woodworking@...>> wrote: So I'm working on finalizing my order for a KF700 S Pro with a 10 foot slider and the 1500mm outrigger. I've gotten some excellent advice from David Best. David noted that in his experience the precision miter attachment is fussy to use and not worth the hassle. I'm curious whether anyone else has an opinion. Does anyone who has one like theirs? Why? Why not? David also noted that on his KF700 (back in the day before he upgraded) that the mechanical scoring system required the main blade to be fully elevated to use it. Is this still the case? Is it different on the electric scoring unit? I've asked my the rep at Felder, but she doesn't seem to really know the equipment. -- Michael Garrison Stuber Newman Lake, WA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |