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Fuel system issue


 

Havana, our '95 EVC with 140,000 miles, has some issues that are baffling even the superb mechanics at Independent Auto Works here in Corvallis. I must say that I am of the carburetor?generation?(I've owned three '69 VW buses in my life) and know nothing about injectors.? Thus my descriptions use archaic terminology!? Here are the scenarios and observations of the problems (presumably related):??
1. Minor, but annoying.? Engine is at running temperature and you stop for groceries, viewpoint or gas for 1 to 15 minutes.? When you restart the engine the idle is rough and usually stalls within 30 seconds.? Restart again and pull onto the road- minimal power for about 30-60 seconds, crawl along at 20-30 mph until engine suddenly revs up and away you go.? It is like the choke was on and then it opened up. You just hold the gas pedal in place and wait for it to fix itself.
2. Flat curvy roads, speed limited areas and downhills.? Same symptoms as above if you leave her in Drive and let the RPM's drop below 2500.? The "choking" lasts for 1 to 3 minutes until she roars to life. I can usually prevent this by downshifting to 3rd or 2nd (automatic transmission) and keeping her above 3000 RPM, but what a waste of gas and wear and tear!
She runs like a dream on the open highway/freeway for hours on end [sigh].??
We just?replaced the computer to no?avail although?it?seems to have fixed?the?stalling issue.? Sensors all seem to check out normal. Any thoughts or ideas?? ?
Thanks In?advance, Curtis


 

You or your mechanic might find something helpful?on "Ken's Digifant" site.



On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 10:27 AM Curtis Day <curtiswhitley@...> wrote:
Havana, our '95 EVC with 140,000 miles, has some issues that are baffling even the superb mechanics at Independent Auto Works here in Corvallis. I must say that I am of the carburetor?generation?(I've owned three '69 VW buses in my life) and know nothing about injectors.? Thus my descriptions use archaic terminology!? Here are the scenarios and observations of the problems (presumably related):??
1. Minor, but annoying.? Engine is at running temperature and you stop for groceries, viewpoint or gas for 1 to 15 minutes.? When you restart the engine the idle is rough and usually stalls within 30 seconds.? Restart again and pull onto the road- minimal power for about 30-60 seconds, crawl along at 20-30 mph until engine suddenly revs up and away you go.? It is like the choke was on and then it opened up. You just hold the gas pedal in place and wait for it to fix itself.
2. Flat curvy roads, speed limited areas and downhills.? Same symptoms as above if you leave her in Drive and let the RPM's drop below 2500.? The "choking" lasts for 1 to 3 minutes until she roars to life. I can usually prevent this by downshifting to 3rd or 2nd (automatic transmission) and keeping her above 3000 RPM, but what a waste of gas and wear and tear!
She runs like a dream on the open highway/freeway for hours on end [sigh].??
We just?replaced the computer to no?avail although?it?seems to have fixed?the?stalling issue.? Sensors all seem to check out normal. Any thoughts or ideas?? ?
Thanks In?advance, Curtis


 

Have you tried temporarily installing a fuel pressure gauge to see if you're losing fuel pressure when these things happen?
I would suggest you or your mechanic do that and see that the pressure is stable while running, and that it does not bleed down quickly when shut down (it should hold pressure for an hour or more).

You might also have a bad MAP sensor in the ECU. I know you said it was replaced, but apparently a lot of them are bad by now. Someone on the samba wrote up a procedure for replacing it with a part from eBay, which I did, and can vouch for the process being cheap and easy.


 

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What codes do you get ?
Have you drove with ?scan reader connected ?
Have you drove with pressure gage on fuel ?

On Aug 9, 2022, at 12:46 PM, Joshua Van Tol <jvantol@...> wrote:

?Have you tried temporarily installing a fuel pressure gauge to see if you're losing fuel pressure when these things happen?
I would suggest you or your mechanic do that and see that the pressure is stable while running, and that it does not bleed down quickly when shut down (it should hold pressure for an hour or more).

You might also have a bad MAP sensor in the ECU. I know you said it was replaced, but apparently a lot of them are bad by now. Someone on the samba wrote up a procedure for replacing it with a part from eBay, which I did, and can vouch for the process being cheap and easy.


 

Check your EGR.? Might be sticking, both in cold operation and warm.? I am not familiar with the I5 engine, so I can't expound any more than that.??


 

Also, you may have a vacuum leak issue.? Your excellent mechanics should know about this stuff.


 

There is no EGR valve in the I5 engine afaik.


This sounds like you may have a fuel flow issue (it's usually the fuel filter), and the ECU is attempting to compensate by richening out the mixture (it's the default VW setting as well for when things go wrong: just flood the engine with fuel)

If it's not that, it's one of the other 4 digifant sensors that control fuel mixture

On Tue, Aug 9, 2022, 4:16 PM mike.mcauliffe@... <99mcbear@...> wrote:
Also, you may have a vacuum leak issue.? Your excellent mechanics should know about this stuff.


 

There is no EGR valve in the I5 engine afaik.
There certainly is on the 1995 ACU engine. I just looked at mine, and it's right there on the flywheel end of the engine, up against the intake manifold. It's also shown on the vacuum hose/emissions schematic sticker on the front radiator support.


 


The AAF does not have one, which is the I5 that I am used to.


On Wed, Aug 10, 2022, 11:41 AM Joshua Van Tol <jvantol@...> wrote:
There is no EGR valve in the I5 engine afaik.
There certainly is on the 1995 ACU engine. I just looked at mine, and it's right there on the flywheel end of the engine, up against the intake manifold. It's also shown on the vacuum hose/emissions schematic sticker on the front radiator support.


 

Hello, Curtis,

I don’t recommend aiming a parts cannon to “fix” stuff unless you know the part you're buying is the fix. But if you already have a known-good part available (free), then it's reasonable to swap the part.


Based on the symptoms you provided… and understanding I’m only guessing based on my experience.

And also understanding for most of stuff I’m suggesting here, you’ll need a scope, a multimeter, and some experience or someone who knows what to look for and/or how to interpret waveform data. If you’re a gung-ho? DIY’er, then jump on the internet. Lots of excellent video tutorials available by some amazing auto techs who willingly share their expertise with everyone.

1. Vacuum leak (unmetered air) - as rpm's and run-time increase, the ride smooths out. The engine gets hotter, and heat tends to minimize or nearly "fix" small vacuum leaks at cylinder heads and valve cover and other places so the ECU doesn’t go bonkers with unmetered air and flood the fuel injectors. So check for leaks at egr, pcv (sticking pcv can cause idle and other performance issues), air flow meter, brake booster (although the booster can be trickier to diagnose), any place there’s a grommet, hose, gasket or mating surface on engine. Really easy and cheap to diy test for many vacuum leaks with a spray bottle of water. Lots of excellent videos online. Go deeper using a vacuum gauge and/or smoke machine. Easy to setup.

2. Fuel pressure regulator is getting “stuck” but gets happy at higher rpm. Many regulators have a rubber o-ring seal. Sometimes those get smooshy-brittle and leak. You’ll need to test fuel pump pressure as other posters suggested and check before/after regulator and filter. A related issue is intermittent voltage drop to the fuel pump from the fuel pump relay. If power is being restricted to the fuel pump, the pump won’t pump the correct pressure or volume of fuel. In your case, most of the performance issue is at lower rpm, not highway driving…so inclined to think may not be the pump pressure or volume per se unless…

3. Fuel pump is ready to go – you’ll need pump specs, a scope and a multimeter to really test this, maybe a little experience as well to understand/interpret waveforms and because you’ll be checking grounds and power from the engine bay to the fuel pump.

4. Fuel injectors – really need a scope on these and check against ignition spark and crank. Are they the original 140,000 mile injectors? Ever been replaced/removed/cleaned?

5. MAF sensor – needs cleaning or needs replacing. Even with a scope this is a difficult sensor to troubleshoot. You’ll need a scope, multimeter, experience. And you’ll need to perform drive cycles. Even then, it can be a crapshoot, especially if no codes.?

6. IAC – Idle Air Control valve needs cleaning or is faulty. Not sure if your vehicle has one.

7. PCV sticking sometimes but related to air leak. Easy to check. Make sure to check grommet if it has one. If it’s rubber, it likes to leak. So check for vacuum leak. Don’t buy a new pcv if the installed pcv checks okay. That’s money you can save for a cheap burger. If you have to buy new, then make sure to get the grommet as well. ?

8. ECT. Faulty Engine Coolant Temp sensor. If temp sensor misreports, then ECU adjusts fuel because it thinks the engine isn’t running at proper temp (adds fuel if it thinks it’s “cold” which is part of reason why rpm higher on startup). Easy to test…but a real pain to get out sometimes. This is a rare issue.

If I were the tech, I’d be asking questions and looking at stuff:

How long have these symptoms been present (when did you notice and why)?
What time of day?
Are symptoms present all the time or intermittent?

What color is the exhaust at idle? After sitting all night or day? At running temp? After driving for 15 minutes on the highway?

Any fuel smell in the engine compartment?

Any wetness near the fuel injectors or fuel pressure regulator?

How’s gas mileage?

Any strange noises from the engine compartment?

What’s your air filter look like?
Battery at full charge and getting charged properly?

Were any other parts replaced before or besides the computer?

What happens when you stomp on the accelerator (wot – wide open throttle)?

What happens to rpm when you turn on a/c (if you have a/c)?

Surprising the ECU replacement “fixed” anything. It's more typical for something to get "fixed" unknowingly when a tech is banging around in the engine bay -?if the stalling is still fixed as you say – excellent!. Replacing an ECU is a big deal. It’s more typical for techs not to perform a proper drive-cycle relearn pattern when an ECU is replaced. So what you get is the default performance protocol from the ECU until the ECU adjusts itself for the signals from input/output sensors and then sends its corrections to some sensors…so from air flow to fuel to spark, the big three of any combustion engine and from evap system. Performance can change after the default system is adjusted real-time from sensors.?


 

Thank you, thank you, to all who responded for your ideas and suggestions!? This group is great.
Just got Havana back from the mechanics who started?from scratch again?and finally found the main culprit. I took her for a test drive up and down hills, idled along on flats?at 1000 rpm, stopped and turned her off multiple times and she ran perfectly.? The answer was unexpected.? After?she gets to temperature there?was soot or some other build up on the OXYGEN SENSOR which gave a false signal back to the computer to pour on the gas. As Maitland said:?"it's the default VW setting as well for when things go wrong: just flood the engine with fuel".? And?they did not charge me for the second visit.? I can't recommend Independent?Autoworks of Corvallis enough.
Thanks?again for everyone's responses.
Curtis
'95 EVC? 140,000 miles

On Sat, Aug 13, 2022 at 11:52 PM Big C via <k_kodiak1=[email protected]> wrote:
Hello, Curtis,

I don’t recommend aiming a parts cannon to “fix” stuff unless you know the part you're buying is the fix. But if you already have a known-good part available (free), then it's reasonable to swap the part.


Based on the symptoms you provided… and understanding I’m only guessing based on my experience.

And also understanding for most of stuff I’m suggesting here, you’ll need a scope, a multimeter, and some experience or someone who knows what to look for and/or how to interpret waveform data. If you’re a gung-ho? DIY’er, then jump on the internet. Lots of excellent video tutorials available by some amazing auto techs who willingly share their expertise with everyone.

1. Vacuum leak (unmetered air) - as rpm's and run-time increase, the ride smooths out. The engine gets hotter, and heat tends to minimize or nearly "fix" small vacuum leaks at cylinder heads and valve cover and other places so the ECU doesn’t go bonkers with unmetered air and flood the fuel injectors. So check for leaks at egr, pcv (sticking pcv can cause idle and other performance issues), air flow meter, brake booster (although the booster can be trickier to diagnose), any place there’s a grommet, hose, gasket or mating surface on engine. Really easy and cheap to diy test for many vacuum leaks with a spray bottle of water. Lots of excellent videos online. Go deeper using a vacuum gauge and/or smoke machine. Easy to setup.

2. Fuel pressure regulator is getting “stuck” but gets happy at higher rpm. Many regulators have a rubber o-ring seal. Sometimes those get smooshy-brittle and leak. You’ll need to test fuel pump pressure as other posters suggested and check before/after regulator and filter. A related issue is intermittent voltage drop to the fuel pump from the fuel pump relay. If power is being restricted to the fuel pump, the pump won’t pump the correct pressure or volume of fuel. In your case, most of the performance issue is at lower rpm, not highway driving…so inclined to think may not be the pump pressure or volume per se unless…

3. Fuel pump is ready to go – you’ll need pump specs, a scope and a multimeter to really test this, maybe a little experience as well to understand/interpret waveforms and because you’ll be checking grounds and power from the engine bay to the fuel pump.

4. Fuel injectors – really need a scope on these and check against ignition spark and crank. Are they the original 140,000 mile injectors? Ever been replaced/removed/cleaned?

5. MAF sensor – needs cleaning or needs replacing. Even with a scope this is a difficult sensor to troubleshoot. You’ll need a scope, multimeter, experience. And you’ll need to perform drive cycles. Even then, it can be a crapshoot, especially if no codes.?

6. IAC – Idle Air Control valve needs cleaning or is faulty. Not sure if your vehicle has one.

7. PCV sticking sometimes but related to air leak. Easy to check. Make sure to check grommet if it has one. If it’s rubber, it likes to leak. So check for vacuum leak. Don’t buy a new pcv if the installed pcv checks okay. That’s money you can save for a cheap burger. If you have to buy new, then make sure to get the grommet as well. ?

8. ECT. Faulty Engine Coolant Temp sensor. If temp sensor misreports, then ECU adjusts fuel because it thinks the engine isn’t running at proper temp (adds fuel if it thinks it’s “cold” which is part of reason why rpm higher on startup). Easy to test…but a real pain to get out sometimes. This is a rare issue.

If I were the tech, I’d be asking questions and looking at stuff:

How long have these symptoms been present (when did you notice and why)?
What time of day?
Are symptoms present all the time or intermittent?

What color is the exhaust at idle? After sitting all night or day? At running temp? After driving for 15 minutes on the highway?

Any fuel smell in the engine compartment?

Any wetness near the fuel injectors or fuel pressure regulator?

How’s gas mileage?

Any strange noises from the engine compartment?

What’s your air filter look like?
Battery at full charge and getting charged properly?

Were any other parts replaced before or besides the computer?

What happens when you stomp on the accelerator (wot – wide open throttle)?

What happens to rpm when you turn on a/c (if you have a/c)?

Surprising the ECU replacement “fixed” anything. It's more typical for something to get "fixed" unknowingly when a tech is banging around in the engine bay -?if the stalling is still fixed as you say – excellent!. Replacing an ECU is a big deal. It’s more typical for techs not to perform a proper drive-cycle relearn pattern when an ECU is replaced. So what you get is the default performance protocol from the ECU until the ECU adjusts itself for the signals from input/output sensors and then sends its corrections to some sensors…so from air flow to fuel to spark, the big three of any combustion engine and from evap system. Performance can change after the default system is adjusted real-time from sensors.?


 

Another plug for Independent Auto Werks—with an e btw :-). ?They’ve helped me out a ton over the years. Formerly and for decades known as Independent Bug Werks—until a VW o A cease and desist letter forced them to change their name several years ago. 52 years in business keeping VWs on the road….?



--
Justin
2000 EVW 1.9TDI Syncro 5-spd

490k mi :-)