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Some good battery info - (swiped from the Sprinter list)
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David Richoux
For those with a Coach Battery - EVC and others, I found this on the Yahoo Sprinter list yesterday. There is some Sprinter specific stuff, but the overall information should be very useful when deciding what sort of batteries to get.
Dave Richoux ---------------------- ( Posted by: "Ken Slaughter" kenslaughter@... ) There are two primary flavors of batteries (for our purposes here), sealed (SLA - sealed lead acid) and flooded (FLA - flooded lead acid). Both are lead acid batteries and have the same chemistry. The Odyssey batteries are Sealed Lead Acid, and use the same liquid battery acid (electrolyte) as the traditional wet cell, except that the electrolyte is absorbed into glass mats (similar to fiberglass), so it doesn't slosh around like in a wet cell battery. They are called AGM, for the Absorbed Glass Mat construction. They are "dry" by design, only insofar as they don't have free liquid sloshing around that can leak. AGM batteries, even if broken open, will not leak. (well, they will, if you leave a broken AGM battery laying there long enough. I guess "seep", maybe "ooze" is a better word than leak). The sealed, maintenance-free batteries, often marketed as "marine" batteries, are merely traditional wet cell batteries that are sealed and vented much like AGM batteries. However, with the cheaper maintenance-free batteries, you can still add water if necessary (tho sometimes how to get the caps off isn't readily apparent). Usually you'll never need to add water, unless you have overcharged them and they have, in fact, boiled over, outgassed and leaked. Some of the maintenance-free batteries, like the ones marketed as "marine deep cycle" like the Everstart Maxx marine batteries at Wal Mart, are hybrid batteries, basically a cranking battery with slightly thicker plates that will withstand deeper discharges than a cranking battery. They aren't deep cycle batteries by a long shot. They are deep cycle for starting a boat motor, and for use with a trolling motor. That's what marine deep cycle means, it means a trolling motor battery, and is designed to be drawn down and cycled in the same manner than a trolling motor draws on it. The design life of AGM batteries is indeed 8-10 year, but that's only if they are properly taken care of, meaning not discharged below 50% very often at all, and when they are recharged they are fully recharged with the proper voltage. If you discharge too deeply and then don't fully recharge them, the lifespan is dramatically reduced. Like, from 8-10 year down to anywhere from 1-3 years. Do keep in mind that if you want to charge an AGM house bank battery with the same alternator that you charge your cranking battery, the two batteries must be the same type, as in the cranking battery must be an AGM battery, too, and not a standard cranking battery (sealed, maintenance-free or traditional wet cell battery). AGM's and regular cranking batteries (like the OEM Sprinter battery) require different charging parameters, and a single alternator won't do that. Cranking batteries require a variable, lower voltage (13.2-13.8), but a relatively constant amps, while AGM's require a higher, constant voltage (14.2-14.4), and the amps can be wildly variable. When you try to charge AGM's with the vehicle's alternator, the AGM's will receive the same low voltage and low amps that the cranking battery will get, and the result is the AGM's will never be fully charged. AGM's aren't like traditional batteries in the sense that with regular batteries, you can charge them up fully at a lower voltage, it just might take them a long time to get charged. With AGM's, if you try to charge them at a voltage that is lower than 14.2, it doesn't matter how long you leave them on the charger or alternator, they'll never get fully charged. At best you'll get them to about 80% charged. And chronic undercharging is the surest way to kill a battery before it's time. When you charge an AGM at, say, 13.6 volts, as the battery charges up the internal resistance will match that of the charging voltage, and when the internal voltage reaches 13.6 volts, and the charging voltage is 13.6 volts, there ya go, charging stops, usually at around 80%, and it won't charge beyond that, regardless of how long you pump 13.6 volts at it. Even at that, the vehicle's alternator will throw a variable voltage at the battery, not a constant 13.6 (or whatever) because the cranking battery needs a constant amperage, not constant voltage,yet AGM's are the opposite in that they need constant volts, variable amps. Optima batteries are a hybrid, but are more like an AGM battery than they are a "marine" or other battery type. They are true deep cycle batteries, but are on the lower end of the deep cycle battery scale. In the mid and upper range are the AGM (and gel) batteries from makers like Odyssey (hardly the best battery you can buy, however), Deka, a few others. And on the higher end of mid and upper range of consumer AGM batteries you'll find Concord Lifeline and Discover Energy batteries. The difference between the four brands I mention here are small, and mainly related to specific applications, with Deka and Odyssey being on one level and Concord and Discover Energy being slightly above the other two. There are several differences, but the primary one being the amount of amps you can pump into the different batteries. Concord and Discover will take as many amps as you can pump into them, up to 400% of the battery bank capacity, whereas Deka and Odyssey will max out somewhere between 50% and 100% of capacity. Few people will have the battery cables large enough to pump 400% of battery capacity into a Concord. Imagine a 400 amp hour bank, and trying to find a charger and telephone pole-sized battery cables that can handle 1600 amps and 14.4 volts. That would be fun. :) Just keep in mind that if you want to charge an AGM house battery with the Sprinter's alternator, you really and truly do need an AGM starting battery, in order to get the same voltage to both batteries. Also keep in mind that AGM batteries don't perform very well at temps below zero, so the cranking amps may be a little low at those times. If you have different cranking and house bank batteries, this may be a viable option. I haven't talked with them, yet, but I plan to. They apparently have a proven system with a tandem regulator for the Sprinter's Bosch alternator that delivers different charging voltages to the house bank and the cranking battery. Only thing I need to find out is how many amps it can divert to the house bank, as it would be a shame to have a 150 amp alternator that only delivers the standard 30 or so amps of charge to the batteries. It ain't cheap, but compared to the cost of 2 or 4 high end AGM's, it's pretty cheap if it'll keep them fully and properly charged. |
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David Richoux wrote:
For those with a Coach Battery - EVC and others, I found this on the This was facinating and quite informative. The post and the included URL cited sheds a LOT of clarity and light on the subjet. Here is the URL again: It makes me wonder WHY this stuff wasn't figured out at the level of the factory engineering (i.e. Winnebago, VW, etc.)? Why should the consumer have to go through this kind of re-engineering just to bring the product (EVC, Sprinter, etc.) up to minimum standard? Thanks for swiping and re-posting this piece, David. It also makes me wonder if I should also be monitoring the Sprinter list!? ;) Garrett 1999 EVC, "DolphinJazz" 2002 EVC, "Serenity" |
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pat_under_hill
Garrett, don't be so quick to harshly judge VW and Winnebago. There is
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no free lunch, and no free electricity, either. Batteries need to be charged, and that takes fuel. Use great batteries (and maybe even an extra alternator as that website shows) and maybe you can run your cabin air conditioning system on electricity alone, but is that more efficient? Maybe not. Rarely is burning gas to charge batteries to then power devices more efficient than just burning gas and avoiding the conversion losses. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but without more information it's premature to slam VW and/or Winnebago. --- In ev_update@..., "Garrett" <garrett.elists@...> wrote:
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Pat,
Okay, your point is made. However, did you read that long post from the Sprinter list before doing your note here? The original post was *nothing* about what you're saying I am slamming VW and Winnebago for. It wasn't about, as you say, "batteries need to be charged." Of course they do! And that was the VERY POINT the original poster was making!! The original post was about supplying the *correct* voltage and amperage to the batteries and how a cranking battery (up front) needs a *different* voltage for charging than does the deep cycle batteries (in back)... otherwise the the deep cycle batteries never get fully charged... and the deep cycle battery suffers a premature death and never operates correctly or efficiently from the very start (because it NEVER gets fully charged). It was nothing to do about "free lunch." It was nothing to do about "free electricity." Let me invite you to first read the original post and then reply to me off line (privately), if you care to take this further with me. The orignal post wasn't at all about conversion losses or running A/C off the battery or alternator. The orginal post was about (that fellow's assertion as to) how the WRONG amperage and voltage gets supplied by the alternator and how that hurts the deep cycle batteries... and the original post went into a possible solution that he (the original poster) was going to investigate further. My lamenting is that the correct voltage and amperage (if the original poster is correct in his assertions) should have been known, figured out, and supplied by the VW and/or Winnebago engineers. I'm not slamming anyone for not supplying a free lunch or free electricity. That would be ridiculous. Best wishes, Garrett --- In ev_update@..., "pat_under_hill" <pat_under_hill@...> wrote: is no free lunch, and no free electricity, either. Batteries need to bemore information it's premature to slam VW and/or Winnebago.on the includedYahoo Sprinter list yesterday. <snip> ofURL cited sheds a LOT of clarity and light on the subjet. thethe factory engineering (i.e. Winnebago, VW, etc.)? Why should bringconsumer have to go through this kind of re-engineering just to makes methe product (EVC, Sprinter, etc.) up to minimum standard? wonder if I should also be monitoring the Sprinter list!? ;) |
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pat_under_hill
I did read th your posts, and quite a bit of the website, too. My
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point is that VW and Winnebago (and Toyota, for that matter, since I have a Sienna) don't invest in leading edge battery technology for running accessories (and doesn't every new vehicle on the road have a lot of accessories, many of which are used when the motor isn't running, so good battery performance matters more and more?). There isn't a single device on your van -- from batteries to seat belts to gaskets -- that couldn't be made better, much better. You can always find an aftermarket supplier that does something better. That doesn't mean, as you exasperatedly wondered, "this stuff wasn't figured out at the level of the factory engineering." --- In ev_update@..., "Garrett" <garrett.elists@...> wrote:
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Thanks for posting this informative article, David.
As a practical matter, VW and Winnebago designed and installed a very straightforward, low tech system with standard components available anywhere. I appreciate this in that it is very reliable and easily maintained. This is great for a car that spends a lot of time on the road instead of home, sometimes in the middle of nowhere. Anytime you build a system like this, it is not perfection, but that was not the intent. It is reasonably priced, bulletproof and there when you need it most of the time. I've never seen much need to improve on a small system like the EVC. If a person is so inclined, the best source is the marine industry which has developed a multitude of sophisticated (and expensive) approaches to battery power for both cranking and house use. A great resource is West Marine, which has a lot educational info on their website if you are not in a city where they have a store. Again, thanks for sharing. Pete |
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Joe R
Garrett
As Pat pointed out if everything on a vehicle of any kind was the very finest it would take all the gold in Fort Knox, if there's any left, to buy it! I own a 17 foot Casita travel trailer and battery types and care are a constant topic on trailer groups too. Most people end up replacing the standard wet cel battery with another of the same type. The extra cost does not warrant the better agm battery for most people. But those that do get them buy expensive shore power converters to keep them charged roperly. Both can easily cost $400 then some opt for two batteries. There is no perfect battery! Let's get back to tires or maybe fuel lines :=} Joe R |
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David Richoux
I think that batteries (after maybe oils and tires) are the costliest "expendable" components of our EVCs! Anything we can (within reason) do to increase their performance, dependability and service life is worth exploring. If the stock onboard charging system for the EVC coach battery is incapable of properly charging a AGM (which is otherwise probably a better battery for that job) then it is important that we know about it.
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I have to use a electrical medical device every night (a CPAP) and I need to know my coach battery will work the way it is supposed to! I was thinking of replacing my standard wet cell deep cycle battery (which has been weak lately) with an AGM, but now I am not sure. I was planning to also put a solar recharging panel on my pop-top, but I assume I would have to put some sort of isolating device to the coach battery charger - that whole circuit is a bit confusing. If we can have 400+ messages on ATF replacement, then 50 or so on batteries is not too much ;-) Dave Richoux 2000 EVC On Jun 9, 2008, at 5:36 AM, Joe R wrote:
Garrett |
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David Richoux
This device was just mentioned on the Sprinter list:
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How it would fit into the stock EVC charging circuit is another question... it's always something! Dave Richoux On Jun 9, 2008, at 9:59 AM, David Richoux wrote:
I think that batteries (after maybe oils and tires) are the costliest |
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Stuart MacMillan
I'm going to go check this out at my local West Marine. The alternator
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output goes directly to the house battery, then to the Duo Charge, and from the Duo Charge to the start battery. Should be easy to install in the start battery compartment. If this is affordable, I'll get an Odessy. Stuart _____ From: ev_update@... [mailto:ev_update@...] On Behalf Of David Richoux Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 10:16 AM To: ev_update@... Subject: Re: [ev_update] Re: Some good battery info - (swiped from the Sprinter list) This device was just mentioned on the Sprinter list: . <> net/page20-Duocharge.html . <> net/PDF/Duo%20Charge%20Manual.pdf How it would fit into the stock EVC charging circuit is another question... it's always something! Dave Richoux On Jun 9, 2008, at 9:59 AM, David Richoux wrote:
I think that batteries (after maybe oils and tires) are the costliest |
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jack_son_73
Dave -
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I looked at the Balmar dual battery charger. While searching for some tech specs on it, I got cross- eyed trying to count the LEDs. I was almost up to 150, when I saw the switches on top. If they have LEDs built in, the lamps might total ~170. They omit details, such as voltage drop through the device, connection to alternators with internal regulators, - - & price. They must charge at least $170 to cover all of those LEDs. I plan to mount a digital meter under the dash, wired to each side of the battery combiner relay, with a center off selector switch. This will make me happier than 170 lights. I ruled out a digital voice announcing, "Your batteries are OK" every minute. OTOH, it could call my cell phone. One of the reasons I mounted Thule rails on my plastic roof was to be able to use it to for solar panels. Panels need a simple isolation diode, which is often included with a solar controler. This could connect directly to your coach battery. My large panels are glass, but my smaller ones use a 1/8" aluminum panel behind thin film cells, with a clear protective coat. A small hail storm or an occasional piece of gravel would cause no problem. [I just reworded that, after recalling news of base-ball sized ice a few days ago.] Either type need to be spaced off of the roof a couple of inches, for cooling, which the cross struts would provide. Sometimes I put two 0.6A panels on 1" rubber strips on the EVC dash. This is not nearly as efficient as on the roof, but I can park, lock, & not worry. If I average an Amp for a few hours, it's 'free' energy. I plug output into one of the 12V sockets. In my drive, this is simpler than extension cords, Battery Tender, etc. If I couldn't leave extension cords connected, & hoods partially open, w/chargers tucked out of the weather, I'd get more serious with panels. I keep putting off running a DC extension from my solar panels on my house to the driveway, but I have to work out details of a quick-disconnect when I forget to unplug! I recently replaced engine batteries in EVC & Passat with AGM. Eventually I plan to also replace my EVC house batteries [original, & its K-Mart bargain 'marine' twin] with two AGMs. I hope with an AGM in front, a slightly higher charge will reach the house bats. If I hadn't already built the new battery box, I'd just put in 2 AGMs to fit [in, or in-place-of] original bat box. I keep waiting for the house bats to die, but I keep babying them, & they check GREAT! Jack_son '03 EVC '01 Passat ============================================== --In ev_update@..., David Richoux <tubaman@...> wrote:
I was thinking of replacing my standard wet cell deep cycle |
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pat_under_hill
If we can have 400+ messages on ATF replacement, then 50 or so on No, not too much, but that's comparing apples to oranges, or maybe apples to knitting needles! My husband and I just purchased a 1993 with an automatic and, after googling a bit, I found this group, and I'm glad I did. Our van only has 110,000 miles, but I don't think the previous owner did anything but drive it on Sundays to church (that's what he told us, anyway). He certainly didn't do much maintenance, or keep any records. Best of luck to all of you trying to achieve storage battery nirvana. I"m trying to make sure we aren't one "funny noise" away from negative equity in our new van. More transmission talk!!! Please!!! |
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David Richoux
Jack_son,
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I think there are actually only 6 LEDs - they are showing various possible combinations to indicate voltage after you program it. Blinking, Steady, On, Off, number of blinks are all a way of showing status without a true meter. They could have done the same thing with one LCD, maybe this was a more rugged (or cheaper) solution? Anyway, worth further research! Dave Richoux On Jun 9, 2008, at 12:52 PM, jack_son_73 wrote:
Dave - |
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