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On Sunday 02 March 2025 01:49:59 am Andy via groups.io wrote:
On Sat, Mar 1, 2025 at 01:30 PM, wn4isx wrote:That may be changing, we'll see.If rumors are to be believed (I know, there's a major problem with that), then some brands are considerably better than others in this respect. I went through a period where I tried all sorts of brands. Dollar store brands, etc. And I arrive at the conclusion that the name brands like Duracell and Eveready would last longer than any of those other ones. Yeah, you can get a whole big honkin' box of those other ones fairly cheaply, but who wants to be bothered with changing them more often? I used to favor Duracell, but they had a period of time where they seemed to be more prone to leakage. These days if you look at the battery rack in the front of a Wal-Mart near the registers, it's pretty much more Eveready than anything else. OTOH, I have a couple of Duracell D size that I pulled out of a magliite flashlight after realizing that they'd been in there close to a decade and a half, There's a date of "MAR 2013" on them And they still test good! The YT channel "Project Farm" does all sorts of comparison tests on a lot of stuff, and he did one video comparing different brands, some of which I'd never heard of. He arrived at the conclusion that lithium was the way to go, that they didn't leak, and offered better performance than any of the alkaline cells that were out there. One time when I was still in high school I picked up a "glow plug" at a hobby shop, the sort of thing you'd use for a model airplane engine. And just for the heck of it I connected it up to a AA alkaline cell, and sure enough that little heating element glowed. So I got curious and measured the current. I was really surprised to see that it was over an amp! I had no idea that you could pull that much out of one of those.... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin |
开云体育Question about the Lithium AA cells - I know they use a little buck regulator to get the voltage down to 1.5V (nominal) but that also means that they are current-limited. Finding out the current limit on the advertised products it "deucedly" difficult. Have you ever tried the glow plug test on a Li AA cell? Many TIA, On 3/2/25 14:37, Roy J. Tellason, Sr.
via groups.io wrote:
On Sunday 02 March 2025 01:49:59 am Andy via groups.io wrote:On Sat, Mar 1, 2025 at 01:30 PM, wn4isx wrote:****The "less likely to leak" has become a joke, all the major brands now leak long before their use by date. **** [snip] The YT channel "Project Farm" does all sorts of comparison tests on a lot of stuff, and he did one video comparing different brands, some of which I'd never heard of. He arrived at the conclusion that lithium was the way to go, that they didn't leak, and offered better performance than any of the alkaline cells that were out there. |
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I don't know if this is relevant.? ?But one of the stated characteristics of Leclanche cells was an initial open-circuit voltage of about 1.4 V, which rapidly falls off.? Whereas carbon/zinc dry cells are supposed to be a little above 1.5 V, and all the ones I played with, measured close to 1.6 V when new.
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And I still wonder why the only person in the world I have ever seen call them Leclanche cells, is here in this group.? Nobody else ever calls them that.? Why is that?? Is it because few of the people I know are chemists?? But surely many of them are engineers, and none of the engineers I know ever called them that.? Even some chemists don't call them Leclanche either.
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I have your word, or I have my years of experience, to go on here.? Which do you think I am inclined to believe?
How does one give a cell a "reverse charge"?? What does it even mean? ?
It implies doing a partial DIScharge first.? Is that it?? I'm assuming it does not mean to discharge until the voltage reaches 10% negative, but like I said, I don't understand.
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Does it help only with "non-rechargeable" dry cells?? Or does it apply to rechargeables too?
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Andy
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On Sun, Mar 2, 2025 at 07:41 AM, Bertho wrote:
I don't know, but I expect they all use crimped seals of? one form or another, and the quality of those seals (a manufacturing step where they can save money) surely comes into play.? Even if they use the same cell wall thickness, if the seal fails, it's no good.
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They are not likely to inspect them after sealing them.
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I remember a story some 20 years ago, how car batteries from the same "American" name brand companies suddenly became noticeably lighter, because they started using significantly thinner lead.? I think it coincided with using a different Chinese supplier for the American name brand.
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Andy
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wn4isx
The Everready >primary< AA and AAA and 9V lithiums do not have a drop down regulator.
Just disassembled a dead AA and 9V.
They are pricey but probably worth it for several reasons...
For test gear I seldom use, the 10 year life expectancy means the test gear will probably work when I need it, and, if the lithium goes flat, it won't leak.
For devices like our blood pressure machine, used everyday, a set of lithiums last about 3 times as long as alkylines with no risk of leakage.
For the flashlights in the cars, given the 10 year life expectancy, I can count on having them work when I? need them.
My primary reason for adopting them was lack of leaking and no corrosion, and I pay through the nose for the cells / batteries.
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On Sun, Mar 2, 2025 at 02:18 PM, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
These days if you look at the battery rack in the front of a Wal-Mart near the registers, it's pretty much more Eveready than anything else.Interesting.? That's not what I see here.? (I stopped going to Walmart during early COVID and mostly haven't been back.)? These days I see tons of Duracell and few of others.? I'm sure each retailer has their preferences.? Less supply-demand, more what they want to put on their shelves, as long as it moves. ?
Andy
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On Sun, Mar 2, 2025 at 02:18 PM, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
The YT channel "Project Farm" does all sorts of comparison tests on a lot of stuff, and he did one video comparing different brands, some of which I'd never heard of. He arrived at the conclusion that lithium was the way to go, that they didn't leak, and offered better performance than any of the alkaline cells that were out there. Now by "lithium" - do you mean the NON-rechargeable, super-long-life lithium 1.5 V cells?? The ones that cost $20 for a pack of four AA's?
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I use those for the outside thermometer so it won't freeze, but I reserve it for that only because they cost so much.
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If I'm not mistaken, they are guaranteed to have at least 10 or 15 years of shelf life.
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It is unfortunate that there are so many cells and batteries named "lithium" these days.? Some electronics insists "NO lithium batteries!" but of course they are talking about the lithium-ion rechargeables (which are nowhere near 1.5 V), not the non-rechargeable lithium cells (which are about 1.5 V).
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Andy
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开云体育Andy, The cell or battery is charged, for example, for a minute then discharged for a second and continuously repeat until charged. I have seen it apply to different cell types. Bertho ? From: electronics101@groups.io <electronics101@groups.io> On Behalf Of Andy via groups.io
How does one give a cell a "reverse charge"?? What does it even mean? ? It implies doing a partial DIScharge first.? Is that it?? I'm assuming it does not mean to discharge until the voltage reaches 10% negative, but like I said, I don't understand. ? Does it help only with "non-rechargeable" dry cells?? Or does it apply to rechargeables too? ? Andy ? |
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On Monday 03 March 2025 09:39:09 am Donald H Locker via groups.io wrote:
Have you ever tried the glow plug test on a Li AA cell?That bit with the glow plug was back when I was in high school, *MANY* decades ago. Lithium AA cells weren't around back then... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin |
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I wrote:
Sorry, I take that back. ?
It depends on which store I go to.? Where I shop most frequently, Energizer fills most of the racks.? In another, it's Duracell.
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But not the Eveready brand name.? I think Eveready and Energizer are co-owned, but Eveready is its own brand, which I rarely ever see anymore.
Andy ? |
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wn4isx
I think we are getting hung up on technical definitions that were not used in the real world. ? A carbon-zinc is classified as a Laclanche in all my battery books. [can't add the diacritical above the e in this font] While carbon-zinc and Laclanche are "the same." I suspect every since the first Laclanche was built in a lab, there has been constant improvements with minor differences in the open terminal battery voltage. ? From "Batteries in a Portable World - A Handbook on Rechargeable - Isidor Buchmann - 4, 2017" ? High specific energy and long storage have made alkaline more popular than the old zinc- carbon, which Georges Leclanché invented in 1868. ------------ Choices of Primary Batteries Zinc-carbon, also known as carbon-zinc or the Leclanché battery, is one of the earliest and least expensive primary batteries. It delivers 1.5V and often come with consumer devices. The first zinc-carbon invented by Georges Leclanché in 1859 was wet. -------------------------------- When I was a kid, the magazines all said we could count on a new carbon-zinc having an open circuit voltage of 1.5V. ? I suspect this was a bit optimistic but hobbyist accuracy in 1960 was probably a lot more hope then reality. ? I bought a set of carbon-zinc "D" cells at Kroger Sunday, cut one open (God what a mess) and it had the expected carbon rod down the center and a layer of zinc surrounded by a case of steel. ? With the exception of the outer case of steel, it looks just like the cells I opened back in 1958~1965. I'm assuming the damp black crud is magnesium dioxide, I don't have any way to verify that at the moment. [I wonder if you heat magnesium dioxide in a closed container if you could 'drive off' the oxygen leaving magnesium. I can test magnesium but lighting it, if it burns brighter then the sun, it's magnesium.] ? The open circuit voltage was 1.61V. ? I suspect the magnesium dioxide probably has an additive. Again, I don't have an analytical chemistry lab handy, don't think the university will let me use one of their labs, and it's been so long since I've done any chemical analysis (class back in 1976) I wouldn't trust myself to make an accurate analysis. ? One thing the battery book stated was "all primary cells release hydrogen" and that might be why alkaline cells are now leaking. ? ? ? ? My wife has a Dell something or other laptop with touch screen, the screen rotates and flips around to form a giant tablet and a stylus that uses AAAA cells. She can do some nice art work with the stylus. |
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On Mon, Mar 3, 2025 at 09:39 AM, Donald H Locker wrote:
Are you sure?? I never saw anything suggesting that.? I can't say for certain, but I am fairly sure they do not. ?
I was wrong about their shelf life.? It says 20 years, not 10 or 15.
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Andy
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On Monday 03 March 2025 12:59:37 pm Andy via groups.io wrote:
I remember a story some 20 years ago, how car batteries from the same "American" name brand companies suddenly became noticeably lighter, because they started using significantly thinner lead.? I think it coincided with using a different Chinese supplier for the American name brand.I rather doubt that. Thickness of the plates bears directly on the reserve power spec, while the number of plates bears on the CCA spec. What I was dealing with was made by Exide, not made in china. There were a few other big makers around, and lots of places just put their own stickers on them. There were a few other mfrs, none of them chinese. I just recently did a battery swap, and found out that one place that used to carry Exide exclusively was carrying an assortment of brands, including some that were Korean. But not chinese. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin |
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On Monday 03 March 2025 12:59:52 pm wn4isx via groups.io wrote:
The Everready >primary< AA and AAA and 9V lithiums do not have a drop down regulator.Yeah. I have one meter that uses a 9V, which lasts about a year if I put an alkaline in there. A lithium will last 3-4 years, typically. I don't use that meter much lately as the on-off switch has gotten flaky and I have other meters around to use... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin |
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On Monday 03 March 2025 01:17:58 pm Andy via groups.io wrote:
On Sun, Mar 2, 2025 at 02:18 PM, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:Yeah. But the last ones I bought weren't anywhere near that expensive, maybe about $2 a battery?Now by "lithium" - do you mean the NON-rechargeable, super-long-life lithium 1.5 V cells?? The ones that cost $20 for a pack of four AA's? I use those for the outside thermometer so it won't freeze, but I reserve it for that only because they cost so much.I use them in my camera. If I'm not mistaken, they are guaranteed to have at least 10 or 15 years of shelf life.I haven't seen that on anything I own here, but those are usually a different form factor anyway, like the 18650s I got out of some laptop battery packs. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin |
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On Mon, Mar 3, 2025 at 01:38 PM, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
... I just recently did a battery swap, and found out that one place that used to carry Exide exclusively was carrying an assortment of brands, including some that were Korean. But not chinese.Just to be clear about this - ?
I wasn't talking about Chinese brands.? I was referring to American battery brands, with off-shore manufacturing.
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I first heard the story at a ham radio convention, from someone speaking of first-hand experience.? There was about a 20% weight reduction from one year to the next.? I'm sure it affected the battery's capabilities.? Later, I read confirmation from a couple of written references.? They all were sold by "trusted" American battery makers.? Yes, it was hearsay and might be part of the general fear of cheap Chinese imports, but who knows?
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Andy
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wn4isx
Wiki has an interesting article on lithium batteries, the data is somewhat at odds with the information in the book. Lithium cells/batteries is an extremely complex subject with a lot of what appear to be contradictions.
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I found this interesting...I had to sign for the primary lithiums I purchased at Wal-Mart at the first of the year. I guess I exceeded their non druggy user policy. It's as bad as when you need pseudoephedrine decongestant. In Kentucky there is a government tracking program, CASPER, that monitors /records what controlled substances you purchase. Given how oxy whatever is a plague in Eastern Kentucky I guess I see the need. I had no idea you could use primary lithium cells for some pretty evil purposes...?
Methamphetamine labs[]Unused lithium batteries provide a convenient source of lithium metal for use as a??in??labs. Specifically, lithium metal reduces??and??to??in the??method, which employs solutions of alkali metals dissolved in anhydrous?. Some jurisdictions have passed laws to restrict lithium battery sales or asked businesses to make voluntary restrictions in an attempt to help curb the creation of?. In 2004??stores were reported to limit the sale of disposable lithium batteries to three packages in Missouri and .... -------------------------------------------------------------- The book I referenced earlier in this thread is extremely useful. Batteries in a Portable World - A Handbook on Rechargeable - Isidor Buchmann - 4, 2017 ? |
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wn4isx
On Mon, Mar 3, 2025 at 01:21 PM, Bertho wrote:
I think they they added a resistor with a diode wired backwards to the main diode that diode provided V+ They specified a 10% reverse charge
Say you charge at 100mA, then you'd want to add a reverse charge of 10ma.
They fed raw AC to the diodes from a transformer. The entire circuit looked rather cheap and poorly thought out to me.
I'm going from memory here as?I never built the circuit, struck me as a waste of time as I had NiCads and lead acid.
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Bertho