?My Temperature Probe melted
Amazon offers:
10K Temperature Sensor Probe ? I found one even cheaper on TEMU.
The WTESKE Manual says: Type of temperature probe R25 = 10K ohms +/-1% B25/85=3435K+/-1% It is a two-wire probe.
Before ordering, I thought it might be prudent to check to see if the controller had been damaged when the original probe melted.? When the probe is removed, the display blanks out - Open Circuit.? So, it would appear that some resistance is required for the display to indicate the current temperature.
Question: ?What value of resistor might be needed to fool the controller into thinking there was a working R25 = 10K ohms +/-1% sensor installed?
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upgrading PI controller into a current driver for a YIG
There is a PI controller with certain AC behavior. I need to use this PI controller in order to drive a coil (current controlled oscillator) of 1.5 ?H inductance. For DC behavior at 10 mV input I need 50 mA current on the coil at most. PI controller has proportional and integrator property.
How can I convert this behavior into a driver circuit?
/g/electronics101/photo/296358/3878514?p=Created%2C%2C%2C20%2C2%2C0%2C0
/g/electronics101/photo/296358/3878513?p=Created%2C%2C%2C20%2C2%2C0%2C0
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Found many variations of 2/3 AAA NiMH in multi packs on Amazon. Both button top and tabbed. It does appear that 300mA is harder to find. Going to next step in capacity, 400mA, yields better results.
~SD
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For kicks and grins I sent an email to Sabre to ask if I could purchase a replacement battery. Their response was " The battery is non-replaceable". I replied that I already had the unit apart and commented on the ack of overvoltage protection on the charging circuit. Since I had it apart I again asked for a replacement. Again they said NO and also said they would forward the comment on the overvoltage issue to their quality department.
So much for customer support. I did see the Ali web site had 2/3AAA 300 maH batteries for less than $2.00 with a shipping cost of $6. Delivery in mid March!
I think I'll just pack it up and give it back.
Dan
On Friday, January 17, 2025 at 08:07:02 PM EST, Mike via groups.io <niche@...> wrote:
Interesting thanks,
Ive had few nicads & LiMH pretty much similar issues you've observed and incl trying to perturb them enough (incl slap then hard to break up shorting crystals)? to take a charge but, for my applications Li Ion's higher density more applicable and more efficient time/cost wise. ? From my observations of how duralamin was found/produced Ive experimented with putting dead or failing Li Ion's in the freezer until they reach same temp approx -15C etc then taking them out until they get to ambient then back into freezer so these cycles repeated over a few days - whilst Not charging or discharging avoiding catastrophic failure - though have trickle charged frozen Li Ion couple of times no issues so far, though would only be comfortable doing this outside in a bucket of sand with a scoop of sand at the ready...
Only after those cycles on charge at ambient temp observing charge current and rate of change of cell voltage. ? Would be good to find/design a battery cell characteriser - which reports Eg internal resistance, change in cell voltage when not charged/discharged in relation to temperature, efficiency re power not just Amp Hrs, proclivity to overheat ie temp stats during charge/discharge - so as to produce some reference metric then serialise ie barcode stick on side of battery to track it with attention to cost/time etc ? I wonder how it would go to subject the battery to ultrasonics when charge/discharge eg to influence internal chemistry mobility etc. ? Extending the above to earlier nicads would be of interest though Id focus on large commercially useful packs, those for research could be worth it also as tool for education high school/uni etc
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Want to think about fireworks....
?
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/09/13/tesla-semi-fire-needed-50000-gallons-of-water-to-extinguish.html#
?
My brother in law was trapped on the interstate for an hour or so before CHP was able to have everyone behind him turn around and drive the wrong way to the closest exit. He told me he was probably 500 feet away and standing outside his car he could feel the heat.
?
I'm not sure the 50,000 gallons of water had any real effect or if it just took 15 hours to consume all the lithium.
?
There was (?is?) a massive fire at a lithium utility backup center
?
I so want an electric vehicle with lithium batteries. [not]
?
And I can't wait to add a Tesla power wall.
[So not gonna happen!]
?
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As a teenager I bought pure lithium metal.? It was supplied in a jar covered by oil. I cut off pieces and threw them into snow or ice for instant fireworks. Bertho ? ?
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Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of wn4isx via groups.io
Sent: 20 January, 2025 12:11
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [electronics101] Charging Circuit? Trust me, I took enough chemistry in college to know lithium and water react rather violently. But no one was listening to me when the phone went up in flames and someone grabbed a child's squirt gun and 'zapped' the phone, instant flare up and another person used a paper plate to push the phone in a cooler filled with ice and water. The ice might have slowed the reaction a bit...then again not enough to matter. Instant cloud of steam and flaming bits of plastic. By cloud of steam, I've played with smoke grenades, legally in college, and the wall of steam was at least as large as a typical military smoke grenade cloud. But all fires end when the fuel is gone. One good thing was the phone melted the bottom of the cooler, which let the water out, which put out the small grass fire the flying flaming bits of whatever started. The best part was the fire department....I simply sat there, kept my mouth shut and let others explain what they'd done and why as they "grilled" us.? At least the food wasn't harmed.? The city was very unhappy because the phone left a deep burn scar on the picnic table...I guess they complained to Samsung. If it had been up to me, I'd have knocked the phone to the ground, called 911 and then used water in the cooler to put out the inevitable grass fire and let the phone burn itself out. I view our lithium battery powered equipment as "incendiary devices in waiting."
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Trust me, I took enough chemistry in college to know lithium and water react rather violently.
But no one was listening to me when the phone went up in flames and someone grabbed a child's squirt gun and 'zapped' the phone, instant flare up and another person used a paper plate to push the phone in a cooler filled with ice and water.
The ice might have slowed the reaction a bit...then again not enough to matter.
?
Instant cloud of steam and flaming bits of plastic.
?
By cloud of steam, I've played with smoke grenades, legally in college, and the wall of steam was at least as large as a typical military smoke grenade cloud.
?
But all fires end when the fuel is gone.
?
One good thing was the phone melted the bottom of the cooler, which let the water out, which put out the small grass fire the flying flaming bits of whatever started.
?
The best part was the fire department....I simply sat there, kept my mouth shut and let others explain what they'd done and why as they "grilled" us.?
?
At least the food wasn't harmed.?
?
The city was very unhappy because the phone left a deep burn scar on the picnic table...I guess they complained to Samsung.
?
If it had been up to me, I'd have knocked the phone to the ground, called 911 and then used water in the cooler to put out the inevitable grass fire and let the phone burn itself out.
?
I view our lithium battery powered equipment as "incendiary devices in waiting."
?
?
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Chemically, Lithium is very reactive to air and water. Hence, water is NOT a good method to put on a Li-ion fire.
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Roy,
I have quite a bit of association with LiPo batteries. I fly RC aircraft and LiPo's are the preferred power source. Many times there are articles of flyers charging their batteries and having them catch on FIRE. So much so that there is a combination charging bag and metal container as a charging fire suppression mechanism.
As to the bad cell in my 4 pack of NiMH, I placed in the freezer for a day and let it return to room temperature. Using my old Power Designs power supply I was able to pump in about 50 ma but the cell started to heat up. It took about 35 volts to get that 50 ma. I returned the cell to the freezer and I'll let it stay for a day and try again.
Looking for a 2/3 AAA 300mAh battery has many suppliers but who wants to pay almost $9 for a single cell. Not replacing all four cells seems like a bad engineering decision since the device is over 5 years old.
I am still not convinced the charging circuit is optimum for these cells. There is no overvoltage protection and relying on the capacitive reactance as a limiting device is a stretch.
Regards,
Dan
On Saturday, January 18, 2025 at 12:03:23 PM EST, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. via groups.io <roy@...> wrote:
On Friday 17 January 2025 12:35:23 pm wn4isx via groups.io wrote:
> As I've said, I really distrust and dislike nicads....except for the big ones rail road companies used at crossings.
I had a bunch of them a while back,? and eventually gave up on them completely.? The lower terminal voltage was an issue,? and they just didn't seem to reliably hold a charge.
> NiMH are much better behaved but a @itch to charge.
Had some of those,? too,? and gave up on them.
> Lithium Ion are better energy density wise, but draw too much current or charge wrong and you have an instant incendiary grenade.
I bought a bunch of those TP4056 modules,? and use those.? There are a couple of variants out there,? I got the ones that have the protection on the board as well as the charge control.? So far they've worked out pretty well with a bunch of cells salvaged from laptop batteries.? I had several of those,? and when you open them up there's typically only one or two cells that are bad.? The one thing that didn't work out well was putting one of those setups into a chinese dremel clone,? I'd need to find me some higher-current cells to use in that application.
> A friend had one of the troubled Samsung 'catch on fire' phones and his went up on a picnic table.
> It was a bit too exciting. Hint, do not use water on a lithium fire, that made it more exciting. And knocking it into a bucket of water was beyond exciting.
> Think "Extreme thermal event."
My first smart phone was a Samsung.? I won't buy another one,? not after those stories hit the news,? particularly.? They were just flat out irresponsible.
My last phone got interesting.? I'm not sure what I was doing wrong in my charging regimen,? but the battery bulged enough to pop the case open.? I eventually procured another battery and installed it,? but apparently damaged some other stuff in the phone so the speaker didn't work any more,? and I'm not sure what else.? The little board at the bottom of the phone wasn't available,? so I'm out the $20 I spent on that battery and the phone got replaced.
The battery got removed and placed in a metal bucket with sand in it,? until I took it to recycle at Lowe's.? Interestingly enough,? their recycle box is outside of the store...
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
|
On Friday 17 January 2025 12:35:23 pm wn4isx via groups.io wrote: As I've said, I really distrust and dislike nicads....except for the big ones rail road companies used at crossings. I had a bunch of them a while back, and eventually gave up on them completely. The lower terminal voltage was an issue, and they just didn't seem to reliably hold a charge. NiMH are much better behaved but a @itch to charge. Had some of those, too, and gave up on them. Lithium Ion are better energy density wise, but draw too much current or charge wrong and you have an instant incendiary grenade. I bought a bunch of those TP4056 modules, and use those. There are a couple of variants out there, I got the ones that have the protection on the board as well as the charge control. So far they've worked out pretty well with a bunch of cells salvaged from laptop batteries. I had several of those, and when you open them up there's typically only one or two cells that are bad. The one thing that didn't work out well was putting one of those setups into a chinese dremel clone, I'd need to find me some higher-current cells to use in that application. A friend had one of the troubled Samsung 'catch on fire' phones and his went up on a picnic table.
It was a bit too exciting. Hint, do not use water on a lithium fire, that made it more exciting. And knocking it into a bucket of water was beyond exciting.
Think "Extreme thermal event." My first smart phone was a Samsung. I won't buy another one, not after those stories hit the news, particularly. They were just flat out irresponsible. My last phone got interesting. I'm not sure what I was doing wrong in my charging regimen, but the battery bulged enough to pop the case open. I eventually procured another battery and installed it, but apparently damaged some other stuff in the phone so the speaker didn't work any more, and I'm not sure what else. The little board at the bottom of the phone wasn't available, so I'm out the $20 I spent on that battery and the phone got replaced. The battery got removed and placed in a metal bucket with sand in it, until I took it to recycle at Lowe's. Interestingly enough, their recycle box is outside of the store... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin
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On Fri, Jan 17, 2025 at 08:07 PM, Mike wrote:
I wonder how it would go to subject the battery to ultrasonics when charge/discharge eg to influence internal chemistry mobility etc.
I suspect it'd take quite powerful ultrasonics to break up the 'whiskers' that grow in the electrolyte.
I never considered freezing, I'll pass that idea on to ham friends who still fight with NiCads.
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I'll try the freezing process and see what happens.
Thanks,
Dan
On Friday, January 17, 2025 at 08:07:02 PM EST, Mike via groups.io <niche@...> wrote:
Interesting thanks,
Ive had few nicads & LiMH pretty much similar issues you've observed and incl trying to perturb them enough (incl slap then hard to break up shorting crystals)? to take a charge but, for my applications Li Ion's higher density more applicable and more efficient time/cost wise. ? From my observations of how duralamin was found/produced Ive experimented with putting dead or failing Li Ion's in the freezer until they reach same temp approx -15C etc then taking them out until they get to ambient then back into freezer so these cycles repeated over a few days - whilst Not charging or discharging avoiding catastrophic failure - though have trickle charged frozen Li Ion couple of times no issues so far, though would only be comfortable doing this outside in a bucket of sand with a scoop of sand at the ready...
Only after those cycles on charge at ambient temp observing charge current and rate of change of cell voltage. ? Would be good to find/design a battery cell characteriser - which reports Eg internal resistance, change in cell voltage when not charged/discharged in relation to temperature, efficiency re power not just Amp Hrs, proclivity to overheat ie temp stats during charge/discharge - so as to produce some reference metric then serialise ie barcode stick on side of battery to track it with attention to cost/time etc ? I wonder how it would go to subject the battery to ultrasonics when charge/discharge eg to influence internal chemistry mobility etc. ? Extending the above to earlier nicads would be of interest though Id focus on large commercially useful packs, those for research could be worth it also as tool for education high school/uni etc
|
Interesting thanks,
Ive had few nicads & LiMH pretty much similar issues you've observed and incl trying to perturb them enough (incl slap then hard to break up shorting crystals)? to take a charge but, for my applications Li Ion's higher density more applicable and more efficient time/cost wise.
?
From my observations of how duralamin was found/produced Ive experimented with putting dead or failing Li Ion's in the freezer until they reach same temp approx -15C etc then taking them out until they get to ambient then back into freezer so these cycles repeated over a few days - whilst Not charging or discharging avoiding catastrophic failure - though have trickle charged frozen Li Ion couple of times no issues so far, though would only be comfortable doing this outside in a bucket of sand with a scoop of sand at the ready...
Only after those cycles on charge at ambient temp observing charge current and rate of change of cell voltage.
?
Would be good to find/design a battery cell characteriser - which reports Eg internal resistance, change in cell voltage when not charged/discharged in relation to temperature, efficiency re power not just Amp Hrs, proclivity to overheat ie temp stats during charge/discharge - so as to produce
some reference metric then serialise ie barcode stick on side of battery to track it with attention to cost/time etc
?
I wonder how it would go to subject the battery to ultrasonics when charge/discharge eg to influence internal chemistry mobility etc.
?
Extending the above to earlier nicads would be of interest though Id focus on large commercially useful packs, those for research could be worth it also as tool for education high school/uni etc
|
NiCads can have some odd failure modes, yours is fairly common, under no load the cell will produce ~1.2V, place any significant load and the voltage drops to zero, and the cell won't take any charge current at any sane voltage.
I've had some success using a car battery and connecting the NiCad cell reversed, Bat V+ to car battery V-,, Bat V- to car battery V+. Just a touch, wear safety goggles, use thick gloves.
Another option is to charge a 100uF capacitor to 160ish volts and connect + to +, - to minus.
I restored an original iCom 2-AT battery back this way and the revived cell lasted a bit over a year before it went total open circuit.
?
There are applications where NiCads thrive, watchman flashlights that are used ever night, charge each cell individually the next day at 1/10, use two sets of NiCads and you can (or could in the 1960s) several years use out of the NiCads.
Our next door neighbor's son was a watchman at IBM and he used this scheme.
?
As I've said, I really distrust and dislike nicads....except for the big ones rail road companies used at crossings.
?
NiMH are much better behaved but a @itch to charge.
Lithium Ion are better energy density wise, but draw too much current or charge wrong and you have an instant incendiary grenade.?
A friend had one of the troubled Samsung 'catch on fire' phones and his went up on a picnic table.
It was a bit too exciting. Hint, do not use water on a lithium fire, that made it more exciting. And knocking it into a bucket of water was beyond exciting.
Think "Extreme thermal event."
?
?
?
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Update on my repair. It's NOT! I replaced the diode bridge and LED and connected the battery after "charging" for about 5 minutes. I stopped when I noticed the battery voltage was approaching 10 volts. Further investigation shows a bad cell in the 4 pack. The open circuit voltage on one cell is 1.12 volts but if I put my power supply across this cell it will not take any current. Even though it has a voltage it must have an open circuit internal to the chemistry.
Trying to replace this 4 pack will cost about $32. A new light/zapper is $34.95 so it is a no brainier that a replacement battery is not worth it. Since I already purchased the LED and bridge for $15, no more investment will be made.
Dan Kahn
On Friday, January 10, 2025 at 01:04:07 PM EST, F1CHF via groups.io <f1chf@...> wrote:
Le 10/01/2025 6:45 pm, Dan Kahn via groups.io a ¨¦crit?: Here is a schematic I reverse engineered. On Friday, January 10, 2025 at 11:01:52 AM EST, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. via groups.io <roy@...> wrote: ? ? On Friday 10 January 2025 09:53:33 am wn4isx via groups.io wrote:
> In your circuit, the NiCad and LED would normally limit the voltage, although you can easily cook a NiCad to death with 24/365 charging at as low as 1/20 C (C being amp hour) and N cell NiCads have a very low amp hour rating. I suspect it'd be extremely easy to cook them to death.
Yeah,? there is that.? I have a Simpson DVM that uses four fat nicads to power it,? and I'm on my second or third set of them so far.? And they're not in good shape.? The original charger for that was a wall wart that was supposed to put out 7.5V,? fed through a resistor and that's it.? I also have a cordless screwdriver that sits in its stand most of the time,? with three nicads in it,? and they're not holding a charge all that well these days either.
> I'd be tempted to use a wall wart and build a real regulated power supply. The circuit you describe is simple, maybe too simple to be reliable.
I've pretty much given up on using nicads these days,? but if I did I think I'd prefer to use a circuit that would stop charging them at a given point,? coming back on only when needed.? Like those TP4056 modules I use for the lithium cells...
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
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Re: 3-Phase Motor Question
Low voltage is a parallel star connection. This motor can¡¯t be connected delta. The phase windings are connected in series, only one star point (permanent inside the motor) for high voltage. Interchange any two supply lines to reverse rotation.?
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Re: 3-Phase Motor Question
Ir I remember my 'Y' connection theory, to reverse the motor direction you would reverse any two input leads. Therefore if on 208 each phase line would be connected as such:
X---1
Y---2
Z---3
To reverse
Y--1
X--2
Z--3
or
X--1
Z---2
Y--3
or
Z--1
X--2
Y--3
If this was a Delta connection it would be 240 volts but the phase connections would be the same.
Phases are "usually" labeled X, Y, Z since you have no idea how the wiring is configured from thee supply transformer.
Dan Kahn
On Sunday, January 12, 2025 at 03:51:01 PM EST, Gooey via groups.io <gooeytarballs@...> wrote:
OK, cannot include a PHOTO of the connection diagram on the 3PH 3/4HP motor in question.? However it is rather a simple matrix diagram of nine points of connection: o o o o o o o o o
They are labeled as follows: LOW VOLT CONN LINE-1-7 4 LINE-2-8 5 LINE-3-9 6 HIGH VOLT CONN LINE-1 7-4 LINE-2 8-5 LINE-3 9-6 So, for the LOW VOLTAGE (208V) the CENTER connections are jumpered (/) to those ar LEFT and, for the HIGH VOLTAGE (480V) the CENTER connections.?
The label states "TO REVERSE DIRECTION INTERCHANGE ANY TWO LINE LEADS"
DO YOU KNOW if this means Connect LINE 1 to connector 2 and LINE 2 to connection 1 ?
Or connection LINE 1 to connector 8 and LINE 2 to connector 7 (LOW VOLTAGE CONN) and? connector 7 to 5 and connector 8 to 4 (HIGH VOLTAGE CONN)?
NOTE: I cannot see the motor itself, nor the connectors - just the label. I am wondering if the LINE connections from a THREE PHASE SOURCE are numbered One, Two, & Three respectively indicating the direction / sequence of the phases such that swapping LINE 1 with LINE 2 would actually reverse the motor's direction.
--
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Re: 3-Phase Motor Question
It has been 50ish years since I studied 3 phase, however looking at my class notes, yes interchanging leads 1 to 2, 2 to 1 or? 1 to 3, 3 to 1? or 2 to 3, 3 to 2 will reverse the direction of rotation.
Youtube has loads of how to videos
Be careful, 3 phase can eat you alive, not only are all power leads hot to ground they are hot to each other!
?
There are very few regens from electrocution.
Regen refers to being restored to life in a video game.?
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OK, cannot include a PHOTO of the connection diagram on the 3PH 3/4HP motor in question.? However it is rather a simple matrix diagram of nine points of connection: o o o o o o o o o
They are labeled as follows: LOW VOLT CONN LINE-1-7 4 LINE-2-8 5 LINE-3-9 6 HIGH VOLT CONN LINE-1 7-4 LINE-2 8-5 LINE-3 9-6 So, for the LOW VOLTAGE (208V) the CENTER connections are jumpered (/) to those ar LEFT and, for the HIGH VOLTAGE (480V) the CENTER connections.?
The label states "TO REVERSE DIRECTION INTERCHANGE ANY TWO LINE LEADS"
DO YOU KNOW if this means Connect LINE 1 to connector 2 and LINE 2 to connection 1 ?
Or connection LINE 1 to connector 8 and LINE 2 to connector 7 (LOW VOLTAGE CONN) and? connector 7 to 5 and connector 8 to 4 (HIGH VOLTAGE CONN)?
NOTE: I cannot see the motor itself, nor the connectors - just the label. I am wondering if the LINE connections from a THREE PHASE SOURCE are numbered One, Two, & Three respectively indicating the direction / sequence of the phases such that swapping LINE 1 with LINE 2 would actually reverse the motor's direction.
--
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Roy,
I received the LEDs yesterday. I selected a 1 watt mounted on a 20 mm heatsink. Today I put 3.2 volts to the LED and measured the current at 200 ma. I am going to wait for todays mail for the bridge rectifiers and do the re-assembly tomorrow. I am still torn about adding some kind of overvoltage protection to the battery. I think I have some 5 volt zeners stocked somewhere in my stuff. I might just put it across the battery terminals and use the Xc of the cap to limit the current.
Dan
On Saturday, January 11, 2025 at 11:24:11 AM EST, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. via groups.io <roy@...> wrote:
On Friday 10 January 2025 03:18:30 pm wn4isx via groups.io wrote:
> BTW, I have a no name "made in West Germany" personal alarm that uses 6 AA cells, and has a battery powered siren. I found this pretty small metal box about the size about the size of a paperback with a pin, I pulled the pin and the resulting sound was so loud I couldn't think. No one in the thrift store could.
> I managed to push the pin back in and the shop owner begged me to take it away.
>
> I worked at a facility that frowned on firearms (as in we'll fire you on the spot). We backed up to an economically distressed area, I had to work really late several nights, I wore ear plugs on the way to my car, one night I was confronted by a group of yutes and pulled the pin.
>
> To quote a song from my childhood....
>
> Yeah, they ran through the briers and they ran through the brambles
> And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit couldn't go
>
> A NIST reference calibrated sound meter says the unit produces 130dB.
> You might consider an audible deterrent.....
>
That reminds me of a device brought to me a while back,? the circuit board contained 6 or 8 MOSFETs,? and it hooked up to a horn-type tweeter.? The guy that brought it to me told me that the battery had been hooked up backwards one time,? and the unit refused to work after that.? Looking at the board,? I could easily see where one particular trace had opened up,? acting as a fuse.? My thought was to bridge that with a rectifier diode,? and see if it still worked.? It's somewhere in my "pile of stuff" and maybe if I run across it I'll give that a try...? :-)
Six AA cells oughta work,? I'd guess.
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
|
Gooey
Bertho
Derek Koonce
Mike