Re: PI controller time domain responce in PLL from AC responce
On Sun, Dec 15, 2024 at 01:45 PM, john23 wrote:
Hello, some videos were made from my lab to demostrated the situation.
The main issue is the controller .
There is a PI controller I have simulated.
When I simulation amplifier then I can see the gain on my scope in my lab.
But here its not a regulat gain , its understanding based on the ltspice simulation how it will affect the drift DC in a pll system.
There is nothing could be done in LTspice to see based on AC responve how it will affect the drift in my DC error signal?
I am only guessing here, because I do not understand the overall system.
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I'm guessing that the "drift" you are worried about, happens because of the transfer function of the YIG VCO.? In other words, the DC voltage needed to get the right VCO frequency, drifts over time and temperature.? Yes?
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And I'm guessing the amplifier using the LT1028 must be your error amplifier ("Servo amplifier").? It is approximately an integrator.? Therefore, it will attempt to drive its output voltage to whatever is needed to slew the VCO to the desired frequency.
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But it can drive only to +/- 7 volts, or so.? Is that sufficient to always drive the VCO to the correct frequency, even accounting for the drift?
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The .AC sweep in LTspice (if you extend the sweep down to 1 uHz or so) shows that the DC gain is nearly 150 dB.? It is not infinite, but it is quite large.? You could use a .DC sweep to actually simulate it at "DC".
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You can simulate the drift in LTspice, by adding a variable voltage source at the VCO's input, to inject a variable DC voltage there.
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Andy
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Re: Need A Pin out for a 12 Delco/GM Auto Radio
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None of the radio Connectors shown (last few pages of that pdf_were even close to a match fro the 24 pin connector linked to in the OP ( https://www.ebay.com/itm/372448612009?gQT=1 ?)
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This thing could have come out of a GM vehicle.? Regardless the objective is to trace the radio's PN
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FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH the label lists QC checks for URT, BURN-IN, CUST. CHECK, EEPROM, VISUAL & AUDIT It was assembled after NAFTA? Because it was "Assembled in Mexico."
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Re: Need A Pin out for a 12 Delco/GM Auto Radio
- What year, make, model car did the radio come from?
- Is the Delco part number for the radio in question?
- Did the car have a CD stack player?
- Was the antenna in the windshield or motorized?
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- No idea, immaterial
- Part Number is declared in the OP
- No idea, immaterial
- No idea, immaterial
First of all, I appreciate the interest and only wish someone knew how to proceed.
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As to the CAN and the vehicle the unit was extracted from, the part number(s) on the label (recited in the OP) should tell us its capabilities or lack thereof.? It has but two connections apparent. The 24 pin mentioned and the female co-axial antenna socket.?
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It is devoid of a tape deck.? It was likely the bottom of the line, basic radio bereft of such accoutrements to be found on the sound systems in a high end, well-equipped vehicle.
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The question is How can one get information on a Delco radio using the numbers/information printed on the unit's label.
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If it is one of those units devoid of an amplifier, or otherwise dependent upon an external component, surely the model number would be sufficient to establish such fact.?
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Why does it appear 'everyone' is focusing on why the radio might be like the one their brother's uncle's neighbor had instead of the one in hand and identified in the OP?
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If one's answer boils down to "I don't know," why bother taking time and making the effort to respond in the first place?
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For the record I linked to the page that contained a partial list of GM/DELCO radio part numbers known to employ the same 24 pin connector (a page that also includes a plethora of models these radios have been 'factory' installed in. ?
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However the ONLY thing that we need to know is how this particular GM/DELCO radio works.? It matters not if one appreciates CAN or cannot appreciate CAN if this particular radio was installed prior to the use of CAN, or did not connect to a CAN (because it was a basic radio with amplifier that connected to just two speakers in the dash - for instance).?
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KISS Principle.? If you don't know, remain silent.? If you know how to look up GM/DELCO radios by part number, well then, post a link (Please).
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If you want to talk about CAN, great. Simply change the subject line appropriately and run with it.
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W.C. Fields, we don' need.
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GT
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Re: Need A Pin out for a 12 Delco/GM Auto Radio
Why would CAN be required? Many reasons, a few being:
Navigation, speed correlation, settings customization, satellite radio control, onstar interoperability, split sources between seats, play movies to front verifying not in gear and speed zero, play movies to rear, data bus to CD changer, data bus to map
Disk drive, theft prevention, communicate to body / engine ecu for power requirements, amplifier setup & config for occupancy, dim lighting, environmental controls, and so on.
Use the upfitter manuals for year and model type of donor, heck even build date of radio plus a year or two. You will have your pinout. If have RPO codes (in glove box), then search for those plus upfitter manual.
You could also maybe call GM and ask nicely. Stealerships may help as well.
CAN isn't all bad, though does get highly annoying.
~SD
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OK upfront I'm an analog guy. I don't hate digital, far from it, but I prefer to solve my design problems with analog solutions. I have more computers then common sense, I can and do write code, bad code, overly complex code, but still code that works. I program in Ada [ick] or GW-Basic and compile it with a 198? MS compiler. I've avoided Raspberry, Ardunio, PIC, PIC-AXE etc because I have enough other problems.
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Although I did use some premade code to burn PICs to produce 60Hz, 440Hz, 1PPs real time and sidereal, and other useful frequencies from a 10MHz GPS disciplined oscillator. [I'd love to have premade PIC code for "D" and "C".]
I understand RS-232 in and out, Ethernet from AX.25 (ham packet radio.)
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However I'm only aware of in car data networks because I had to deal with one. I learned enough about CAN to know I needed specialized, expensive, test gear to begin to unravel the CAN problems in our Volvo so I lobotomized it by replacing most functions with local relay control.
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I can look at the data streams with an oscilloscope but it might as well be High Martian.
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Until Goey's request for the pin out of a radio, I'd not looked into CAN since lobotomizing our Volvo.
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I was amazed to learn our Echo didn't have CAN. I assumed it did and prayed it would never give trouble. [Sometimes you luck out!] Though the current sensor in the battery lead creates some issues I'd prefer to avoid.
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Today I learned there is also a simpler car data network, LIN, that GM [and others] uses for controlling the radio et al in some models.
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Most cars made after 2003 will have CAN and, by federal law, all new cars and light trucks made after 2008 sold in the US must have CAN.
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I suggest anyone interested in CAN and LIN start with Wiki then dig as deep as they need.
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CAN/LIN will probably be part of your future.
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We were so "lucky" with our Volvo as they were an early adopter of CAN.
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I've learned some manufacturers require their "in car entertainment systems" receive authorization from the main computer before they will turn on. [Such joy.]
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I see how a cousin of my wife makes a comfortable living by rebuilding pre 1990 cars, his wife does the detail work (she can even replace the headliner!!!!). I can see why any sane person would want a pre-CAN car because it requires specialized equipment and knowledge to trouble shoot them. Imagine all the wiring interconnects in a modern car....now imagine trouble shooting them.
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CAN is being used for all sorts of non-automotive applications, the list is growing and bewildering.
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I suspect serious electronic hobbyists will have to deal with CAN/LIN sooner then later.
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This makes it look sooo simple...
https://www.diagnosistips.com/automotiveacademy/can-bus/
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That log cabin on 20 acres is looking more attractive every day.......
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Re: Need A Pin out for a 12 Delco/GM Auto Radio
What year, make, model car did the radio come from?
Is the Delco part number for the radio in question?
Did the car have a CD stack player?
Was the antenna in the windshield or motorized?
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Re: Need A Pin out for a 12 Delco/GM Auto Radio
OK you don't like CAN BUSS.?
What about sources for the information (PIN OUT DATA) requested??
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Re: 50/60 Hz sine wave distortion
I was given some LED replacements for 4 foot florescents. They were defective from the factory, I carefully disassembled them, removed the stock SMPS, added a simple full capacitor feeding a wave bridge to drive the LEDs. I picked a capacitor whose capacitive reactance made the LEDs bright enough but they didn't get warm. 4 of them are roughly equal to 2 real florescents with no EMI. I bypassed all 4 diodes with low value caps.
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Yea a lot of trouble but I was bored and my mobility was somewhat limited this summer.?
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Re: Need A Pin out for a 12 Delco/GM Auto Radio
Our 2001 Volvo S60 has volume up/down and tune up/down (maybe change from to AM/FM) on the steering wheel.
It uses the CAN buss to pass commands to the radio.
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There was a CD bay 10 that also used the CAN Buss, it had "issues" that would randomly jam the CAN buss, ripped it out and problem solved.
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The window up/down is controlled by the CAN buss, as is the door lock, security system [which dies when the nicad pack under the right front wheel rain shield dies, which also stops the sun roof.
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The can buss controls almost everything in modern cars and maybe everything.
Our Echo being a basic car doesn't have a CAN buss and I love it!!!!!
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I hate CAN et al almost as much as the NEC lock down our rules.
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Re: 50/60 Hz sine wave distortion
Another aspect of EMI and ESD to be
aware of with fluorescent fixtures. The unshielded tube is like a big long (multi-foot) antenna with a gas arc inside radiating. Even with inductive ballasts, the EMI is there, but more important, if you're interested in high-impedance measurements such as triboelectric charging, you now have 110 V, 60 Hz (USA mains), or 220 V, 50/60 (European, Asian or industrial lighting in the USA) mains a few feet above your experiment. Due to capacitance effects the voltage will probably be divided between ground and the lamp, putting your experiment in a somewhat lower field, but still multiple volts. I used to use a bench with a copper plate surface for EMI work. The voltage divider effect is better controlled, but still has to be considered.
On 12/15/2024 11:16 AM, Roy J.
Tellason, Sr. via groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Sunday 15 December 2024 10:41:37 am wn4isx via groups.io wrote:
Somehow I suspect it was easier/safer to couple RF onto the AC Mains at RF then to extract raw 60Hz plus harmonics. The BSR- X10? control system used carrier current. AC light dimmers often made them unusable.
If you think old style, magnetic ballast, florescent light were noisy, the modern ones with electronic ballasts are a whole new level of trashy noise.? Probably less harmonic distortion of the 60Hz, but a nightmare of RF EMI.
Yes.
When I last had my bench set up, at my former residence, I had a couple of 4 foot flourescent fixtures hanging over it. They caused a great deal of radiated "stuff" that showed up on my scope, typically around 40 KHz or so. I'm guessing that had something to do with the electronic ballasts in those fixtures...
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Re: 50/60 Hz sine wave distortion
On Sunday 15 December 2024 10:41:37 am wn4isx via groups.io wrote: Somehow I suspect it was easier/safer to couple RF onto the AC Mains at RF then to extract raw 60Hz plus harmonics. The BSR- X10? control system used carrier current. AC light dimmers often made them unusable.
If you think old style, magnetic ballast, florescent light were noisy, the modern ones with electronic ballasts are a whole new level of trashy noise.? Probably less harmonic distortion of the 60Hz, but a nightmare of RF EMI. Yes. When I last had my bench set up, at my former residence, I had a couple of 4 foot flourescent fixtures hanging over it. They caused a great deal of radiated "stuff" that showed up on my scope, typically around 40 KHz or so. I'm guessing that had something to do with the electronic ballasts in those fixtures... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin
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Re: Need A Pin out for a 12 Delco/GM Auto Radio
On Sunday 15 December 2024 09:28:15 am SheldonD via groups.io wrote: Try looking at upfitter manuals. First I've heard of this... That's an impressive amount of detailed information. This one is for 2012 Pickups. Look at C-63.
Depending on year, features, etc, the radio can have *many* iterations incl CAN being required. Knowing the donor vehicle and RPO codes helps tremendously. Why the heck would CAN be required for a radio? Sounds to me like typical overcomplicating things. If the radio is one of the CAN-required variety, it will want/need to connect with a Body ECM. Usually associated with Bose Audio (9 speakers). Further, if it is Bose, and amplifier is not present and feedback from Body ECM not available it may go into a security mode requiring installation into donor again to retrieve 'replacement / swap' code.
-- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin
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Re: PI controller time domain responce in PLL from AC responce
Hello, some videos were made from my lab to demostrated the situation.
The main issue is the controller .
There is a PI controller I have simulated.
When I simulation amplifier then I can see the gain on my scope in my lab.
But here its not a regulat gain , its understanding based on the ltspice simulation how it will affect the drift DC in a pll system.
There is nothing could be done in LTspice to see based on AC responve how it will affect the drift in my DC error signal?
Thanks.
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Re: 50/60 Hz sine wave distortion
On Sunday 15 December 2024 12:13:34 am Andy via groups.io wrote: But I believe there are more extreme cases where the mains 60 Hz waveform might have distortion around 25% or so.? And those are the kinds of waveforms you actually might want to look at on a 'scope.? 25% THD looks pretty bad.
There's a guy on YT that does a lot of videos on generators, and when he gets one fixed up and making power, he will load test it, which will also typically include hooking a meter and a scope (tablet style) to the output of the generator and seeing what the waveform looks like and how much distortion there is. I don't think I remember any of them being nearly as high as 25%, maybe half that at the most. The ones that were the best were the "inverter" types, which used some electronics to generate the output waveform. They were also the only ones that didn't have to run at a fixed speed, and were therefore more economical for light loads, but they were also the most expensive to fix, if there was any issue with the inverter circuitry. Got a pile of UPSs to scrap out in the garage. Have any of you guys messed with those? Looked at waveforms, etc.? Schematics for them seems to be pretty scarce, I think I may have run across *one* in all the looking I've done for them. Most are 300VA, for whatever that's worth. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin
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Re: Need A Pin out for a 12 Delco/GM Auto Radio
On Saturday 14 December 2024 11:36:11 pm Gooey via groups.io wrote: I've got a Delco/GM Radio I'd like to wire up an use in my shop. *I found *a
connector <> but it does* NOT *come
with instructions to tell one which wire goes here, to what or from what.
As well they have pig tail leads to every one of 24 pins and my most basic
radio *(DELCO PN 15766185 CI: DCSL SER MAN 3 *89DCSLM222735248*)* likely
uses just those to power, illumination and speakers.
The vendor selling the correct connector for twenty dollars writes *"
Identification of the wires in your vehicle, as well as pin location of
those wires in the plug, will be up to you. Yes, research will be required
and it may be challenging. GM did not use the same wires for all the
vehicles that had this plug, so we cannot provide one plug that is going to
have easy-to-determine wire functions for all vehicles. "*
So, my question "Does anyone know how/where I might be able to get the pin
out for the connector on this radio?" Preferably at no cost :) I wish you luck with that... Mostly because Delco. Back when I was repairing a lot of stuff I would often go and visit a friend who worked at a much larger repair business. They did factory service for Delco, which required a fairly hefty investment in some specialized equipment. And what he told me was that they were *very* proprietary about their information, and that if any of it got out, they could lose their authorization and their investment in all of that specialized stuff. They were a fairly large business, and the Delco stuff constituted a nontrivial portion of that business. I have a car radio here, and attached to it is a little FM booster, that used to hang under the dash of one particular vehicle. In addition to power there's wiring for four speakers, and in some cses (not sure about this particular radio) there will be wiring for lighting, separate from radio power because it'll be dimmable along with the rest of the dash lighting. I'm in no particular hurry to try and do anything with it as the AGM battery that I have here that I was planning to use for my ham radio stuff has apparently decided to go to sleep, pretty much permanently. Then there's a need to get an antenna for it, not all that much, but still something I'd have to go and get. Best thing I can suggest is to try and trace stuff out, and see which wire goes where. This will be complicated by the fact that there may be two separate wires for any given speaker, due to the power amplifier being in a BTL configuration, as in no common ground connection. One possible source for wiring info is Haynes manuals, typically available at Autozone. Pretty many of those have wiring diagrams in the back. If you know what vehicle used that radio you could probably go in there and look at one of those manuals, see if it has the info you need. It'd save you a bunch of timek for sure. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin
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Re: 50/60 Hz sine wave distortion
Somehow I suspect it was easier/safer to couple RF onto the AC Mains at RF then to extract raw 60Hz plus harmonics. The BSR- X10? control system used carrier current. AC light dimmers often made them unusable.
?
If you think old style, magnetic ballast, florescent light were noisy, the modern ones with electronic ballasts are a whole new level of trashy noise.? Probably less harmonic distortion of the 60Hz, but a nightmare of RF EMI.
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Re: Need A Pin out for a 12 Delco/GM Auto Radio
Try looking at upfitter manuals.
This one is for 2012 Pickups. Look at C-63.
Depending on year, features, etc, the radio can have *many* iterations incl CAN being required. Knowing the donor vehicle and RPO codes helps tremendously.
If the radio is one of the CAN-required variety, it will want/need to connect with a Body ECM. Usually associated with Bose Audio (9 speakers). Further, if it is Bose, and amplifier is not present and feedback from Body ECM not available it may go into a security mode requiring installation into donor again to retrieve 'replacement / swap' code.
~SD
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Re: 50/60 Hz sine wave distortion
I used to think a lot about the distortion (harmonic and IM) on mains power lines, because I was involved in "carrier-current AM broadcasting" starting around high school.? As some of you know, "carrier-current" involves putting the AM (MW) broadcast RF signal on the AC mains power lines, rather than a proper transmitting antenna.? The advantage was you could get decent coverage over a limited range, because the RF does not pass through the mains step-down distribution transformers.? It was great for non-licensed low-power broadcasters.? The FCC strongly encouraged it.
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But the AC mains "circuit" is a rather dirty and nonlinear one, leading to lots of IM (intermodulation) distortion between the 60 Hz mains voltage and the weaker RF carrier waves.? The result was quite a lot of HUM added to your transmitted signal.? I think it was unavoidable.
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I'm sure every electronic power supply added to it.
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I'm pretty sure all the fluorescent lamps did too.? In a school environment, fluorescent lamps were everywhere.? Since you can see them flicker, they must be doing something nonlinear at a 60x2 = 120 Hz rate, giving your signal lots of HUM.
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I did not have the means to see the effect on a sinewave, and honestly I didn't care to because I figured it could be small enough to be invisible, and yet cause too much hum.
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But I believe there are more extreme cases where the mains 60 Hz waveform might have distortion around 25% or so.? And those are the kinds of waveforms you actually might want to look at on a 'scope.? 25% THD looks pretty bad.
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To me, it hardly matters whether you use a 'scope or an FFT analyzer to see it.? Either way, you need to safely extract that signal from the power wires without also messing with it.? So the problem of safety is the same.
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Andy
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Need A Pin out for a 12 Delco/GM Auto Radio
I've got a Delco/GM Radio I'd like to wire up an use in my shop. I found but it does NOT come with instructions to tell one which wire goes here, to what or from what. As well they have pig tail leads to every one of 24 pins and my most basic radio (DELCO PN 15766185 CI: DCSL SER MAN 3 *89DCSLM222735248*) likely uses just those to power, illumination and speakers.
The vendor selling the correct connector for twenty dollars writes "
Identification
of the wires in your vehicle, as well as pin location of those wires in
the plug, will be up to you. Yes, research will be required and it may
be challenging. GM did not use the same wires for all the vehicles that
had this plug, so we cannot provide one plug that is going to have
easy-to-determine wire functions for all vehicles.
"
So, my question "Does anyone know how/where I might be able to get the pin out for the connector on this radio?"? Preferably at no cost :)
--
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Re: 50/60 Hz sine wave distortion
A real LISN can capture such distorted waveforms because the noisy load is isolated from the line and all the loads downstream.
I wrote real because? it's fairly easy to make a decent pseudo LISN for the purposes of RF EMI tests, making a real one requires attention to more variables then I can think of off hand.
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In addition to the precision electrical components, there must be very good symmetry between the Hot and Neutral and near paranoid attention to the wiring.
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TRIAC based light dimmers are amazing sources of distorted AC, the most common turn on at some point in both halves of the 50/60Hz, some LED screw in light bulbs are almost as bad.??
High power VSD [variable speed drives] can also be horrible for messing up the AC waveform.
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And server rooms, Oh Dear God let me never ever have to deal with what they cause!
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One of the worst things about modern electrical distribution is the industry has gone from a single integrated 3 phase transformer to 3 sort of matched standard transformers. The sort of matched can cause serious imbalance between the 3 phases, which can have serious waveform consequences.
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Oh and Computerized milling machines can place such weird loads, mess up the waveform so bad, the utility power transformers will go up in smoke. I was at a machine shop, a friend was cutting a small piece for work, it was a hot day, upper 90s, the lights went weird, like they were being fed 30Hz, then blackness and every machine in the shop stopped. The silence was defeaning, until some one ran in "Your power pole is one fire!"
Since my car was parked fairly close, I quickly moved it away from any danger.
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The utility billed the company for the lost transformers and harmonic attenuation filters.
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Gooey