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Today's Mercury News (8/18/2024) has an article describing how grid-scale battery storage has come to fruition in California.? Our fair state now has more battery storage than anywhere else, except China.? The full article is linked below, but you might need to subscribe to read it.
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Ben,??
Right about now electricity customers in SoCal would like grid-scale battery storage to be at fuller fruition.
Time of use billing would appear to be far more effective and/or cheaper for utilities than larger batteries at reducing blackouts.
namaste
On Sunday, August 18, 2024 at 12:59:43 PM PDT, Ben White <benwhite@...> wrote:
Today's Mercury News (8/18/2024) has an article describing how
grid-scale battery storage has come to fruition in California.? Our fair
state now has more battery storage than anywhere else, except China.?
The full article is linked below, but you might need to subscribe to
read it.
|
Dave,
You have a couple of good points, grid-scale storage is not the holy
grail, and electric rates for most Californians are sky-high, and
not just because of the peak-consumption problem.? I'm not that
familiar with SCE, but for those of us in PGE territory, some of
those costs are the result of huge legal settlements due to
wildfires, and the capital cost of moving distribution lines
underground.
Time-shifting the load on the grid is certainly cheaper than battery
farms, but would TOU billing in practice be more effective than
batteries?? That's not really addressed in the KTLA news article,
but in my experience the average consumer does not want to be
bothered with restricting their electric use during the hottest part
of the day.? One could even guess that this mindset is the reason
that EV adoption has been so difficult:? why would Joe Average Guy
want to spend half an hour parked at a charging station when they
could fill up their ICE vehicle at a gas station in 5 minutes?? I'm
not saying I agree with this thinking, but sadly, it is pervasive.
Ben
On 8/21/2024 8:58 AM, dave noran via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Ben,??
Right
about now electricity customers in SoCal would like grid-scale
battery
storage to be at fuller fruition.
Time
of use billing would appear to be far more effective and/or
cheaper for
utilities
than larger batteries at reducing blackouts.
namaste
On Sunday, August 18, 2024 at 12:59:43 PM PDT, Ben White
<benwhite@...> wrote:
Today's Mercury News (8/18/2024) has an
article describing how
grid-scale battery storage has come to
fruition in California.? Our fair
state now has more battery storage than
anywhere else, except China.?
The full article is linked below, but you
might need to subscribe to
read it.
|
The combination of wind+solar+storage (and maybe hydro) is a renewable energy solution.
Apparently, California now has enough grid-scale storage installed to be able to time-shift lots of excess solar-power from daytime production to evening consumption.? I know of this from Tweets by Prof. Mark Jacobson throughout this year.
The issue is what's called "The Duck Curve" which refers to the shape of energy production on the grid as more and more solar resources come online.? When the evening comes, the sun goes down, the winds tend to die down, then renewable energy is not available, and the utility companies have to quickly ramp up something like natural gas peaker plants.
The purpose of the grid-scale energy storage is to instead soak up solar energy during the day, release it during the evening/night, and avoid using fossil fuel plants.
"Energy storage" doesn't have to be lithium-ion batteries.? For example there is "solar thermal" systems that can heat up something simple like rocks, that can later be used to drive a turbine.
-- This video might have some information.? The guy who recorded this video is in Ukraine, and has been researching and talking about cheap technology for solar thermal systems.
As for "restricting electric use during the hottest part of the day" and TOU?pricing ...
There is a thing called Demand Response.? There is a protocol, OpenADR, that is frequently used for implementing Demand Response programs.? I have for the last 2 years been implementing software that can be used to build an OpenADR program.
These have been in use in California for many years.? For example owners of pool pumps can sign up with a demand response system and if the electric grid is in trouble the pool pump can be turned off for a couple of hours and the pool pump owner is compensated for that service.
Consumers have been willing to sign up for such programs and get compensated for their service.
The purpose for which I've been implementing OpenADR is to bring this to electric vehicle charging systems.? I'm working for an EV charging network that operates in the New York City area.? The idea we're looking at is to modify the EV charging rate based on the needs of the local electricity grid.
As for "the average consumer does not want to be bothered with restricting their electric use during the hottest part of the day" ... yeah, I have some experience about that this summer.
Here in Romania?where I'm currently living, it's been a brutally hot summer, and the national electric grid nearly collapsed in July due to a massive heat wave.
One thing which happened is the Minister of Energy issued a request for citizens to do an informal demand/response - that is to limit electricity consumption during the evening.? But, this drew an angry response in that people wash their clothes etc during the evening.
The Minister of Energy also said they're exploring demand response systems.? I've been unsuccessful in finding out more details, however.
+ David Herron
Dave,
You have a couple of good points, grid-scale storage is not the holy
grail, and electric rates for most Californians are sky-high, and
not just because of the peak-consumption problem.? I'm not that
familiar with SCE, but for those of us in PGE territory, some of
those costs are the result of huge legal settlements due to
wildfires, and the capital cost of moving distribution lines
underground.
Time-shifting the load on the grid is certainly cheaper than battery
farms, but would TOU billing in practice be more effective than
batteries?? That's not really addressed in the KTLA news article,
but in my experience the average consumer does not want to be
bothered with restricting their electric use during the hottest part
of the day.? One could even guess that this mindset is the reason
that EV adoption has been so difficult:? why would Joe Average Guy
want to spend half an hour parked at a charging station when they
could fill up their ICE vehicle at a gas station in 5 minutes?? I'm
not saying I agree with this thinking, but sadly, it is pervasive.
Ben
On 8/21/2024 8:58 AM, dave noran via
wrote:
Ben,??
Right
about now electricity customers in SoCal would like grid-scale
battery
storage to be at fuller fruition.
Time
of use billing would appear to be far more effective and/or
cheaper for
utilities
than larger batteries at reducing blackouts.
namaste
On Sunday, August 18, 2024 at 12:59:43 PM PDT, Ben White
<benwhite@...> wrote:
Today's Mercury News (8/18/2024) has an
article describing how
grid-scale battery storage has come to
fruition in California.? Our fair
state now has more battery storage than
anywhere else, except China.?
The full article is linked below, but you
might need to subscribe to
read it.
|
On Thu, 2024-08-22 at 21:04 +0300, David Herron wrote: The combination of wind+solar+storage (and maybe hydro) is a
renewable
energy solution.
Apparently, California now has enough grid-scale storage installed
to be
able to time-shift lots of excess solar-power from daytime
production to
evening consumption.? I know of this from Tweets by Prof. Mark
Jacobson
throughout this year.
The issue is what's called "The Duck Curve" which refers to the
shape of
energy production on the grid as more and more solar resources come
online.? When the evening comes, the sun goes down, the winds tend
to die
down, then renewable energy is not available, and the utility
companies
have to quickly ramp up something like natural gas peaker plants.
The purpose of the grid-scale energy storage is to instead soak up
solar
energy during the day, release it during the evening/night, and
avoid using
fossil fuel plants.
"Energy storage" doesn't have to be lithium-ion batteries.? For
example
there is "solar thermal" systems that can heat up something simple
like
rocks, that can later be used to drive a turbine. Thermal storage is about 60% round trip efficiency. Can be higher if the heat has other uses, like heating. Battery round trip efficiency is about 80%. Pumped hydro and gravity storage about the same. One massive storage resource currently being underutlized is Vehicle to Grid. ? Perhaps David has good numbers for this, but how much potentially useful grid storage is there in EV battery packs? What's delaying V2G? Cheers, Jeff C.
|
What's delaying V2G?
Fear of power leaking onto grid when the grid is down. ?In other words, energizing a line when it is down is dangerous to line workers trying to repair the outage.
Best regards,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 22, 2024, at 1:06?PM, Jeff Chan <eaasv@...> wrote:
On Thu, 2024-08-22 at 21:04 +0300, David Herron wrote:The combination of wind+solar+storage (and maybe hydro) is a
renewable
energy solution.
Apparently, California now has enough grid-scale storage installed
to be
able to time-shift lots of excess solar-power from daytime
production to
evening consumption.? I know of this from Tweets by Prof. Mark
Jacobson
throughout this year.
The issue is what's called "The Duck Curve" which refers to the
shape of
energy production on the grid as more and more solar resources come
online.? When the evening comes, the sun goes down, the winds tend
to die
down, then renewable energy is not available, and the utility
companies
have to quickly ramp up something like natural gas peaker plants.
The purpose of the grid-scale energy storage is to instead soak up
solar
energy during the day, release it during the evening/night, and
avoid using
fossil fuel plants.
"Energy storage" doesn't have to be lithium-ion batteries.? For
example
there is "solar thermal" systems that can heat up something simple
like
rocks, that can later be used to drive a turbine.
Thermal storage is about 60% round trip efficiency. ?Can be higher ifthe heat has other uses, like heating.Battery round trip efficiency is about 80%. ?Pumped hydro and gravitystorage about the same.One massive storage resource currently being underutlized is Vehicleto Grid. ?Perhaps David has good numbers for this, but how much potentiallyuseful grid storage is there in EV battery packs? ??What's delayingV2G?Cheers,Jeff C.
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I beg to differ!
Every PV to grid setup (rooftop solar) has a grid following inverter that disconnects from the grid when it is down.
This is a proven and approved technology. ?It is safe for line workers.?
Illustrating this, Ford’s V2G (V2H until utilities allow V2G) inverter is a modified Sunrun rooftop solar inverter. ?(V2HG/H/L = Vehicle to Grid/Home/Load)
DIY folks have used off the shelf grid-tie solar inverters to do V2G, but they are either on at full inverter capacity or off. ?I know of an individual that uses this technique to extract DC current from an unmodified EV via its charge port and puts 5KW onto the grid.?
This by itself IS a fine solution for shedding fossil fuels from the grid. ?Understandably, the utilities would like to have some say as to when these blocks of power are added to the grid, but currently they don’t seem interested in allowing it at all.
Perhaps a Virtual Power Plant could step in to do the inverter coordination and sell the power on the 15 minute spot market, as there are the highest contract prices for electricity.?
Using stock PV inverters doesn’t allow for V2Home or V2Load, but those are unimportant in solving global climate change.?
Please lobby your PUC, utilities, politicians, vehicle and charger manufacturers, and VPPs to add budget electric vehicle based grid storage to our climate recovery portfolio.?
Thanks.?
Lawrence?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 22, 2024, at 1:48?PM, Arthur Keller <arthur@...> wrote: ? What's delaying V2G?
Fear of power leaking onto grid when the grid is down. ?In other words, energizing a line when it is down is dangerous to line workers trying to repair the outage.
Best regards, Arthur On Aug 22, 2024, at 1:06?PM, Jeff Chan <eaasv@...> wrote:
On Thu, 2024-08-22 at 21:04 +0300, David Herron wrote:The combination of wind+solar+storage (and maybe hydro) is a
renewable
energy solution.
Apparently, California now has enough grid-scale storage installed
to be
able to time-shift lots of excess solar-power from daytime
production to
evening consumption.? I know of this from Tweets by Prof. Mark
Jacobson
throughout this year.
The issue is what's called "The Duck Curve" which refers to the
shape of
energy production on the grid as more and more solar resources come
online.? When the evening comes, the sun goes down, the winds tend
to die
down, then renewable energy is not available, and the utility
companies
have to quickly ramp up something like natural gas peaker plants.
The purpose of the grid-scale energy storage is to instead soak up
solar
energy during the day, release it during the evening/night, and
avoid using
fossil fuel plants.
"Energy storage" doesn't have to be lithium-ion batteries.? For
example
there is "solar thermal" systems that can heat up something simple
like
rocks, that can later be used to drive a turbine.
Thermal storage is about 60% round trip efficiency. ?Can be higher ifthe heat has other uses, like heating.Battery round trip efficiency is about 80%. ?Pumped hydro and gravitystorage about the same.One massive storage resource currently being underutlized is Vehicleto Grid. ?Perhaps David has good numbers for this, but how much potentiallyuseful grid storage is there in EV battery packs? ??What's delayingV2G?Cheers,Jeff C.
|
On Thu, 2024-08-22 at 13:48 -0700, Arthur Keller wrote: What's delaying
V2G?
Fear of power leaking onto grid when the grid is down.? In other
words, energizing a line when it is down is dangerous to line
workers trying to repair the outage.
Best regards,
Arthur Presumably the V2G protocol takes this into account and doesn't energize a depowered line. Jeff C.
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The very interesting history of V2G .....
.... which concludes with a good analysis of current status.
.
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There is a bill that passed the CA legislature that will help make V2G a reality, see article below:
I am sure someone will figure out how to aggregate this into a virtual power plant. ?You need the hardware for this and the right price and it will go. ?According to the article, this could more then triple the storage on the CA grid today.
David
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I beg to differ!
Every PV to grid setup (rooftop solar) has a grid following inverter that disconnects from the grid when it is down.
This is a proven and approved technology. ?It is safe for line workers.?
Illustrating this, Ford’s V2G (V2H until utilities allow V2G) inverter is a modified Sunrun rooftop solar inverter. ?(V2HG/H/L = Vehicle to Grid/Home/Load)
DIY folks have used off the shelf grid-tie solar inverters to do V2G, but they are either on at full inverter capacity or off. ?I know of an individual that uses this technique to extract DC current from an unmodified EV via its charge port and puts 5KW onto the grid.?
This by itself IS a fine solution for shedding fossil fuels from the grid. ?Understandably, the utilities would like to have some say as to when these blocks of power are added to the grid, but currently they don’t seem interested in allowing it at all.
Perhaps a Virtual Power Plant could step in to do the inverter coordination and sell the power on the 15 minute spot market, as there are the highest contract prices for electricity.?
Using stock PV inverters doesn’t allow for V2Home or V2Load, but those are unimportant in solving global climate change.?
Please lobby your PUC, utilities, politicians, vehicle and charger manufacturers, and VPPs to add budget electric vehicle based grid storage to our climate recovery portfolio.?
Thanks.?
Lawrence?
On Aug 22, 2024, at 1:48?PM, Arthur Keller < arthur@...> wrote: ? What's delaying V2G?
Fear of power leaking onto grid when the grid is down. ?In other words, energizing a line when it is down is dangerous to line workers trying to repair the outage.
Best regards, Arthur On Aug 22, 2024, at 1:06?PM, Jeff Chan < eaasv@...> wrote:
On Thu, 2024-08-22 at 21:04 +0300, David Herron wrote:The combination of wind+solar+storage (and maybe hydro) is a
renewable
energy solution.
Apparently, California now has enough grid-scale storage installed
to be
able to time-shift lots of excess solar-power from daytime
production to
evening consumption.? I know of this from Tweets by Prof. Mark
Jacobson
throughout this year.
The issue is what's called "The Duck Curve" which refers to the
shape of
energy production on the grid as more and more solar resources come
online.? When the evening comes, the sun goes down, the winds tend
to die
down, then renewable energy is not available, and the utility
companies
have to quickly ramp up something like natural gas peaker plants.
The purpose of the grid-scale energy storage is to instead soak up
solar
energy during the day, release it during the evening/night, and
avoid using
fossil fuel plants.
"Energy storage" doesn't have to be lithium-ion batteries.? For
example
there is "solar thermal" systems that can heat up something simple
like
rocks, that can later be used to drive a turbine.
Thermal storage is about 60% round trip efficiency. ?Can be higher ifthe heat has other uses, like heating.Battery round trip efficiency is about 80%. ?Pumped hydro and gravitystorage about the same.One massive storage resource currently being underutlized is Vehicleto Grid. ?Perhaps David has good numbers for this, but how much potentiallyuseful grid storage is there in EV battery packs? ??What's delayingV2G?Cheers,Jeff C.
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David,
Thank you for sharing this article.?
Unfortunately, its focus is using V2G for blackout mitigation and extreme weather events when the grid is stretched to capacity, rather than on daily use to avoid massive grid upgrades and not having gas peaker, and eventually nuclear, plants supply the grid.?
The investor owned utilities make money on capital improvement projects, so they are motivated to avoid widely implemented V2G (and even distributed utility owned grid storage) until after they make colossal profits on massive grid upgrades; they’d rather have V2G just to avoid blackouts.
Likely, we will need to overhaul the IOU’s incentive structure to get them on board with large scale adoption of V2G.
So, we need to support mavericks willing to explore inexpensive V2G technologies and actively lobby the PUC, utilities, politicians, vehicle and charger manufacturers, and VPPs to add budget electric-vehicle-based grid storage to our climate recovery portfolio.?
Thanks.?
Lawrence?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Sep 15, 2024, at 5:11?PM, David Coale <david@...> wrote: ? There is a bill that passed the CA legislature that will help make V2G a reality, see article below:
I am sure someone will figure out how to aggregate this into a virtual power plant. ?You need the hardware for this and the right price and it will go. ?According to the article, this could more then triple the storage on the CA grid today.
David
I beg to differ!
Every PV to grid setup (rooftop solar) has a grid following inverter that disconnects from the grid when it is down.
This is a proven and approved technology. ?It is safe for line workers.?
Illustrating this, Ford’s V2G (V2H until utilities allow V2G) inverter is a modified Sunrun rooftop solar inverter. ?(V2HG/H/L = Vehicle to Grid/Home/Load)
DIY folks have used off the shelf grid-tie solar inverters to do V2G, but they are either on at full inverter capacity or off. ?I know of an individual that uses this technique to extract DC current from an unmodified EV via its charge port and puts 5KW onto the grid.?
This by itself IS a fine solution for shedding fossil fuels from the grid. ?Understandably, the utilities would like to have some say as to when these blocks of power are added to the grid, but currently they don’t seem interested in allowing it at all.
Perhaps a Virtual Power Plant could step in to do the inverter coordination and sell the power on the 15 minute spot market, as there are the highest contract prices for electricity.?
Using stock PV inverters doesn’t allow for V2Home or V2Load, but those are unimportant in solving global climate change.?
Please lobby your PUC, utilities, politicians, vehicle and charger manufacturers, and VPPs to add budget electric vehicle based grid storage to our climate recovery portfolio.?
Thanks.?
Lawrence?
On Aug 22, 2024, at 1:48?PM, Arthur Keller < arthur@...> wrote: ? What's delaying V2G?
Fear of power leaking onto grid when the grid is down. ?In other words, energizing a line when it is down is dangerous to line workers trying to repair the outage.
Best regards, Arthur On Aug 22, 2024, at 1:06?PM, Jeff Chan < eaasv@...> wrote:
On Thu, 2024-08-22 at 21:04 +0300, David Herron wrote:The combination of wind+solar+storage (and maybe hydro) is a
renewable
energy solution.
Apparently, California now has enough grid-scale storage installed
to be
able to time-shift lots of excess solar-power from daytime
production to
evening consumption.? I know of this from Tweets by Prof. Mark
Jacobson
throughout this year.
The issue is what's called "The Duck Curve" which refers to the
shape of
energy production on the grid as more and more solar resources come
online.? When the evening comes, the sun goes down, the winds tend
to die
down, then renewable energy is not available, and the utility
companies
have to quickly ramp up something like natural gas peaker plants.
The purpose of the grid-scale energy storage is to instead soak up
solar
energy during the day, release it during the evening/night, and
avoid using
fossil fuel plants.
"Energy storage" doesn't have to be lithium-ion batteries.? For
example
there is "solar thermal" systems that can heat up something simple
like
rocks, that can later be used to drive a turbine.
Thermal storage is about 60% round trip efficiency. ?Can be higher ifthe heat has other uses, like heating.Battery round trip efficiency is about 80%. ?Pumped hydro and gravitystorage about the same.One massive storage resource currently being underutlized is Vehicleto Grid. ?Perhaps David has good numbers for this, but how much potentiallyuseful grid storage is there in EV battery packs? ??What's delayingV2G?Cheers,Jeff C.
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David Herron