Re: Florida Airports Lining Up To Impose New Fees // All Nippon Joins The SharkSkin Coating Family
Interesting. I know the FAA is putting out a new policy stating you cannot be fined by the FAA solely based on ADSB data but this sounds very skimpy. Given that ADSB isn¡¯t a national requirement in all airspace and the likelihood of these GA airports not being in a location where ADSB is required and being a public airport, I look for people to pull the breaker for their ADSB to get around this till the federal government makes a decision about the legality of this. Like how would they handle wavers or exceptions, I think it would be a very frustrating thing to deal with.? Blake Shaner
Personal: blakeshaner@... School: bshaner01@... CAP: Blake.Shaner@... Phone: (540)855-4331 ¡°Many of life¡¯s failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up.¡± ¨C Thomas Edison
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On Sep 6, 2024, at 8:29?AM, Mike Brown via groups.io <adrifter2@...> wrote:
? Hopefully this is not the future. Flying is already to expensive.
Florida Airports Lining Up To Impose New Fees
New airport fees could be coming to several Florida airports, with invoices autogenerated using ADS-B data.
?
Updated Sep 4, 2024 9:05 PM EDT
?
DeLand Municipal Airport is one of several Florida airports considering ADS-B-generated invoicing for new facility
fees.
?
A new proposal to impose landing fees and use ADS-B data for invoicing operators at several Florida GA airports is
drawing criticism from the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA). It¡¯s unclear what the revenue from the fees, many tentatively set at $3 per 1,000 pounds of aircraft weight, would be used for. AOPA points out that local taxpayers pay a minimal amount
to support airports that are largely federally funded.
?
The initiative is incentivized by new technological capability to invoice operators based on ADS-B data. AOPA said
in a statement that Florida contracted with a company named Virtower, which has a strategic partnership with Vector Airport Systems to use Virtower¡¯s ADS-B data to automatically invoice aircraft operators. Vector has been reaching out to Florida airport sponsors
to pitch its services.
?
In its statement, AOPA wrote, ¡°[ADS-B data] was never intended to be used to collect fees, or to enable aircraft tracking
by third parties.?AOPA is considering legislative action to make sure ADS-B data is used solely for its intended purpose.¡± The fees could be imposed as early as October 1 throughout the state ¡°as local officials race to take advantage of a newly available
opportunity.¡±
?
And the fees could set in motion a domino effect. John Eiff, Airport Manager at DeLand Airport, said at a public meeting
that his intent in imposing the fees is to deter an influx of traffic from other nearby airports that are imposing the fees. He said, ¡°The primary reason we are even considering a landing fee is to protect ourselves from other airports that are signing up
for this. We¡¯ve got Orlando Executive, Kissimmee, Flagler, Ormond Beach and us that are considering landing fees. If we do not impose landing fees, airplanes that are using the other airports and paying landing fees, they will choose to come to DeLand and
saturate our pattern to an unsafe level. For us to add a landing fee is kind of protection against this.¡±?
?
AOPA Southern Regional Manager Stacey Heaton, said, ¡°The city and county governments considering these new landing
fees have been conspicuously silent about the fact that these airports appear to be in good financial condition, and they¡¯ve received $67 million in federal grants, collectively, over the past decade. This is misguided and stands to devastate the flight training
industry and local Florida pilots.¡±
?
?
All Nippon Joins The SharkSkin Coating Family
Sharkskin-inspired coating could save thousands of tons of fuel.
?
Updated Sep 4, 2024 11:01 PM EDT
?
Following the lead of Lufthansa Cargo and Swiss International Air Lines, EVA Air and All Nippon Airways have become
the first Asian carriers to adopt a high-tech aircraft coating that reduces drag by emulating the skin of a shark. According to??on the Freightwaves news outlet, AeroShark surface coating is configured with sharkskin-like ¡°riblets,¡± described as small protrusions in the coating measuring just 50 micrometers (0.002 inches) that have been shown to reduce aerodynamic
drag by 1%. According to Lufthansa, if resurfaced with AeroShark coating, the global fleet of long-haul aircraft could reduce overall fuel burn by some 5 million tons per year.
?
All Nippon began operating its first AeroShark-coated Boeing 777 freighter on August 31. The carrier said it plans
to add the coating to its passenger aircraft by next spring, though freighters see a slightly greater benefit since their overall surface area doesn¡¯t include windows.
?
AeroShark coating was developed by Lufthansa Technik, the maintenance and tech services corporate cousin of Lufthansa
Airlines, in partnership with German chemical and coating manufacturer BASF. The coating is said to be weather-resistant and easy to apply to fuselage skin and engine nacelles during regular scheduled maintenance.
?
Lufthansa Cargo¡¯s B777 fleet could save more than 4,400 tons of fuel per year, the company said, the equivalent fuel
burn of 53 cargo flights between Frankfurt, Germany, and Shanghai, China.
?
|
Florida Airports Lining Up To Impose New Fees // All Nippon Joins The SharkSkin Coating Family
Hopefully this is not the future. Flying is already to expensive.
Florida Airports Lining Up To Impose New Fees
New airport fees could be coming to several Florida airports, with invoices autogenerated using ADS-B data.
?
Updated Sep 4, 2024 9:05 PM EDT
?
DeLand Municipal Airport is one of several Florida airports considering ADS-B-generated invoicing for new facility
fees.
?
A new proposal to impose landing fees and use ADS-B data for invoicing operators at several Florida GA airports is
drawing criticism from the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA). It¡¯s unclear what the revenue from the fees, many tentatively set at $3 per 1,000 pounds of aircraft weight, would be used for. AOPA points out that local taxpayers pay a minimal amount
to support airports that are largely federally funded.
?
The initiative is incentivized by new technological capability to invoice operators based on ADS-B data. AOPA said
in a statement that Florida contracted with a company named Virtower, which has a strategic partnership with Vector Airport Systems to use Virtower¡¯s ADS-B data to automatically invoice aircraft operators. Vector has been reaching out to Florida airport sponsors
to pitch its services.
?
In its statement, AOPA wrote, ¡°[ADS-B data] was never intended to be used to collect fees, or to enable aircraft tracking
by third parties.?AOPA is considering legislative action to make sure ADS-B data is used solely for its intended purpose.¡± The fees could be imposed as early as October 1 throughout the state ¡°as local officials race to take advantage of a newly available
opportunity.¡±
?
And the fees could set in motion a domino effect. John Eiff, Airport Manager at DeLand Airport, said at a public meeting
that his intent in imposing the fees is to deter an influx of traffic from other nearby airports that are imposing the fees. He said, ¡°The primary reason we are even considering a landing fee is to protect ourselves from other airports that are signing up
for this. We¡¯ve got Orlando Executive, Kissimmee, Flagler, Ormond Beach and us that are considering landing fees. If we do not impose landing fees, airplanes that are using the other airports and paying landing fees, they will choose to come to DeLand and
saturate our pattern to an unsafe level. For us to add a landing fee is kind of protection against this.¡±?
?
AOPA Southern Regional Manager Stacey Heaton, said, ¡°The city and county governments considering these new landing
fees have been conspicuously silent about the fact that these airports appear to be in good financial condition, and they¡¯ve received $67 million in federal grants, collectively, over the past decade. This is misguided and stands to devastate the flight training
industry and local Florida pilots.¡±
?
?
All Nippon Joins The SharkSkin Coating Family
Sharkskin-inspired coating could save thousands of tons of fuel.
?
Updated Sep 4, 2024 11:01 PM EDT
?
Following the lead of Lufthansa Cargo and Swiss International Air Lines, EVA Air and All Nippon Airways have become
the first Asian carriers to adopt a high-tech aircraft coating that reduces drag by emulating the skin of a shark. According to??on the Freightwaves news outlet, AeroShark surface coating is configured with sharkskin-like ¡°riblets,¡± described as small protrusions in the coating measuring just 50 micrometers (0.002 inches) that have been shown to reduce aerodynamic
drag by 1%. According to Lufthansa, if resurfaced with AeroShark coating, the global fleet of long-haul aircraft could reduce overall fuel burn by some 5 million tons per year.
?
All Nippon began operating its first AeroShark-coated Boeing 777 freighter on August 31. The carrier said it plans
to add the coating to its passenger aircraft by next spring, though freighters see a slightly greater benefit since their overall surface area doesn¡¯t include windows.
?
AeroShark coating was developed by Lufthansa Technik, the maintenance and tech services corporate cousin of Lufthansa
Airlines, in partnership with German chemical and coating manufacturer BASF. The coating is said to be weather-resistant and easy to apply to fuselage skin and engine nacelles during regular scheduled maintenance.
?
Lufthansa Cargo¡¯s B777 fleet could save more than 4,400 tons of fuel per year, the company said, the equivalent fuel
burn of 53 cargo flights between Frankfurt, Germany, and Shanghai, China.
?
|
I believe that is Zulu time.?? I called earlier and the runway is open 7am to 7pm ? ?
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On Wednesday 09/04/2024 at 9:53 am, Rick Cathcart via groups.io wrote: Check Notam. Runway opens at 11 am
RGC
On Sep 4, 2024, at 09:50, Mark Walker via groups.io <skyview@...> wrote:
?
Garland and I are planning on flying to Lewisburg tomorrow for lunch, Mark
|
Check Notam. Runway opens at 11 am
RGC
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On Sep 4, 2024, at 09:50, Mark Walker via groups.io <skyview@...> wrote:
?
Garland and I are planning on flying to Lewisburg tomorrow for lunch, Mark
|
Garland and I are planning on flying to Lewisburg tomorrow for lunch, Mark
|
Re: Two injured in Botetourt County plane crash
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Appears to be an rv6 with nosegear
piloted by the builder I suspect.? He is not local - I think he lives in Indiana.
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Re: Two injured in Botetourt County plane crash
Appears to be an rv6 with nosegear
piloted by the builder I suspect. ?He is not local - I think he lives in Indiana.
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Something for folks with a little extra time
|
---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Sotelo, Anthony (DOAV) <Anthony.Sotelo@...>Date: Tue, Sep 3, 2024, 8:54 AM Subject: Ambassador Ceremony To:
Good Morning Ambassadors,
On Saturday, 9/14/24, we will be celebrating the first year Ambassadors at Williamsburg-Jamestown Airport (JGG). The ceremony will begin promptly at 10 am, so don't be late.
Only first year Ambassadors need to check-in with me at the DOAV trailer.?Also, we are sharing the morning with the Second Saturday Fly-In Breakfast folks. Tickets are $ 8 if you are hungry and all proceeds benefit Williamsburg Aviation Scholarship Program.
Don't forget to bring your jackets for the group photo.
See you soon,
Tony Sotelo
Public Relations & Education Specialist Virginia Department of Aviation (804) 774-4634
Office
(804) 510-6798
Cell
Teleworks Wednesdays
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Re: Two injured in Botetourt County plane crash
I heard it was an RV - looks like a side by side version ? ? On Sunday 09/01/2024 at 6:54 pm, Ed Huntley wrote:
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I thought I would recognize any experimental aircraft flying locally but that one doesn't look familiar.
Looks to be an experimental but doesn¡¯t look familiar. Thoughts and prayers for those airlifted from the accident. ? ? ? ? ?
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Re: Two injured in Botetourt County plane crash
I thought I would recognize any experimental aircraft flying locally but that one doesn't look familiar.
Looks to be an experimental but doesn¡¯t look familiar. Thoughts and prayers for those airlifted from the accident.
?
?
?
?
?
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Two injured in Botetourt County plane crash
Looks to be an experimental but doesn¡¯t look familiar. Thoughts and prayers for those airlifted from the accident.
?
?
?
?
?
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Thanks Mike
You provided me quite a bit of insight and directed me to ¡°the horse¡¯s mouth¡± so to speak. I appreciate it.
|
In reference to the discussion on cell phone usage to call ATC. The AIM first couple of paragraph's sums it up pretty well.
?
-
-
In reference to the discussion on cell phone usage to call ATC. The AIM first couple of paragraph's sums it up pretty well.
?
Two©\way Radio Communications Failure
-
It is virtually impossible to provide regulations and procedures applicable to all possible situations associated with two©\way radio communications failure. During two©\way radio communications failure, when confronted by a situation not covered in the regulation, pilots are expected to exercise good judgment in whatever action they elect to take. Should the situation so dictate they should not be reluctant to use the emergency action contained in 14?CFR Section 91.3(b).
-
Whether two©\way communications failure constitutes an emergency depends on the circumstances, and in any event, it is a determination made by the pilot. 14?CFR Section 91.3(b) authorizes a pilot to deviate from any rule in Subparts A and B to the extent required to meet an emergency.
-
In the event of two©\way radio communications failure, ATC service will be provided on the basis that the pilot is operating in accordance with 14?CFR Section 91.185. A pilot experiencing two©\way communications failure should (unless emergency authority is exercised) comply with 14?CFR Section?91.185 quoted below:
-
General.?Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each pilot who has two©\way radio communications failure when operating under IFR must comply with the rules of this section.
-
VFR conditions.?If the failure occurs in VFR conditions, or if VFR conditions are encountered after the failure, each pilot must continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practicable.
NOTE-
This procedure also applies when two©\way radio failure occurs while operating in Class A airspace. The primary objective of this provision in 14?CFR Section?91.185 is to preclude extended IFR operation by these aircraft within the ATC system. Pilots should recognize that operation under these conditions may unnecessarily as well as adversely affect other users of the airspace, since ATC may be required to reroute or delay other users in order to protect the failure aircraft. However, it is not intended that the requirement to ¡°land as soon as practicable¡± be construed to mean ¡°as soon as possible.¡± Pilots retain the prerogative of exercising their best judgment and are not required to land at an unauthorized airport, at an airport unsuitable for the type of aircraft flown, or to land only minutes short of their intended destination.
?
I remember back when redundancy meant bringing two microphones as we only had a speaker and no headset. I was also amazed when I bought my first airplane, a Luscombe that the 40-year-old microphone still worked. Many
?
things have changed over the years (hearing loss). Headsets now are nearly miracles in noisy airplanes. Instructors no longer have to yell because of voice activated intercoms. The more complex and the more stuff, the more chance of
?
failure. Headset mic¡¯s, jacks and the headset itself are prone to use and abuse. PTT switches fail as well as solder joints. Sometimes the radio vibrates out of the frame just enough to quit. I¡¯ll bet hardly anybody has a backup
?
microphone in their plane anymore.
?
So today I called the tower to ask a question and Holy-Moley, the person that answered was in fact working approach control. The budget probably doesn¡¯t allow for a secretary anymore. BTW the KROA number is 540-523-8202 just in
?
case. Since I really needed to talk to the tower manager, he looked up the correct number.
?
Now, I would find it impossible to understand anybody talking on a cellphone in a noisy airplane, but on Bluetooth through a headset would actually work. In fact, the Bluetooth is so good that I could listen to my android device play
?
songs then the song would pause when ATC chimed in allowing me to talk to ATC then resume playing the song after we were done. WOW now my solo flights just got better.
?
Now if the FAA ever knew that we were actually having fun then they would make it illegal (kidding). But Ron does have a valid point and using whatever means you have to complete a flight. But what if you are on the ground and take
?
off knowing you had no radios to fly to an airspace that needs two-way communication. That would be questionable. Just be aware a diversion to an alternate may be necessary.
?
As Forest Gump would say ¡°That¡¯s all I¡¯ve got to say about that¡±
|
I contacted IFlyGPS regarding their notam depiction. Received a quick response which said you have to read the notams now listed under airport info but in an upcoming release important notams like runway closures will display on the map page or under airport info-it will be prominently displayed.
|
I have a hand held radio for sale at a reduced?price if someone needs it. I can bring it to the next EAA 646 meeting. Ed Huntley?
On Thu, Aug 29, 2024, 11:50 AM Rick Cathcart via <rikcathcart= [email protected]> wrote: Hi All, I¡¯m not a member of the chapter but attended one meeting at the hangar. I¡¯m a CFI and an Airline Pilot. My 2 cents¡.. Aviation isn¡¯t cheap¡. Most homebuilts have one radio¡. My one flying has one, my one under construction will have same. But as far as using a cellphone as a backup???? No. Handheld portable radios have come down in price (and in capability) where it¡¯s a good investment to carry THAT as a back up, not a cellphone¡. Watching this long back and forth email finally said ok gotta inject the obvious. Buy a portable radio for a backup.
Rik Cathcart? Zenith 650/ 750 STOL ? Good Topic
Ron,
?Your question is it legal? The answer is well above my paygrade. The rules are to enter class C airspace two-way radio communication must be established. In your case you used your cell phone to do this and it worked at KROA. At least the one time. Fortunately, you got your main radio fixed. Did you squawk 7600? Should my cell phone be my only backup? Seems logical, everybody has one, needs to stay charged, signals have become more reliable. Last resort probably yes if that is the plan. Is that a good plan? Should I be flying with my cell phone ON all the time? Should I be taking calls while in the air as PIC? Should I ask ground control for a place to stop taxing so I can make calls. We've done it at the Airlines before. So I'd say it's not illegal until you get caught and somebody like Jack Smith is the prosecutor.
?
Additionally, procedure states two way radio communications. Problem is you have to go through class C airspace to get to the tower. Tower only airport, no problem, ie KLYH. The AIM has all the radio failure procedures. I'm not going to repeat here, that will be for your research.
?
?
Class C Airspace
- Definition.?Generally, that airspace from the surface to 4,000 feet above the airport elevation (charted in MSL) surrounding those airports that have an operational control tower, are serviced by a radar approach control, and that have a certain number of IFR operations or passenger enplanements. Although the configuration of each Class C airspace area is individually tailored, the airspace usually consists of a 5 NM radius core surface area that extends from the surface up to 4,000 feet above the airport elevation, and a 10 NM radius shelf area that extends no lower than 1,200?feet up to 4,000 feet above the airport elevation.
- Charts.?Class C airspace is charted on Sectional Charts, IFR En Route Low Altitude, and Terminal Area Charts where appropriate.
- Operating Rules and Pilot/Equipment Requirements:
- Pilot Certification.?No specific certification required.
- Equipment.
- Two©\way radio; and
- Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, an operable radar beacon transponder with automatic altitude reporting capability and operable??Out equipment.
NOTE-
See paragraph?, Transponder and??Out Operation, subparagraph??for Mode C transponder/??requirements for operating above Class C airspace.
- Arrival or Through Flight Entry Requirements.?Two©\way radio communication must be established with the ATC facility providing ATC services prior to entry and thereafter maintain those communications while in Class C airspace. Pilots of arriving aircraft should contact the Class C airspace ATC facility on the publicized frequency and give their position, altitude, radar beacon code, destination, and request Class C service. Radio contact should be initiated far enough from the Class C airspace boundary to preclude entering Class C airspace before two©\way radio communications are established.
NOTE-
- If the controller responds to a radio call with, ¡°(aircraft callsign) standby,¡± radio communications have been established and the pilot can enter the Class C airspace.
- If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision of Class C services, the controller will inform the pilot to remain outside the Class C airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided.
- It is important to understand that if the controller responds to the initial radio call without using the aircraft identification, radio communications have not been established and the pilot may not enter the Class C airspace.
- Class C airspace areas have a procedural Outer Area. Normally this area is 20 NM from the primary Class C airspace airport. Its vertical limit extends from the lower limits of radio/radar coverage up to the ceiling of the approach control's delegated airspace, excluding the Class C airspace itself, and other airspace as appropriate. (This outer area is not charted.)
- Pilots approaching an airport with Class C service should be aware that if they descend below the base altitude of the 5 to 10 mile shelf during an instrument or visual approach, they may encounter non-transponder/non-ADS-B VFR aircraft.
EXAMPLE-
- [Aircraft callsign] ¡°remain outside the Class Charlie airspace and standby.¡±
- ¡°Aircraft calling Dulles approach control, standby.¡±
?
Best,
Mike
|
Mike:? Thank you for chiming in on this topic, I/we always appreciate your insight and experience.
I try to follow the rules, however, when necessary I pull out all stops to safely get the airplane to the ground.? RULE #1, "always fly the plane!"? Fortunately I was already cleared to enter and had entered the "C" space on my last com failure. I do now carry a portable as a back-up com radio.? The issue becomes connecting said portable to my pilot head set and to my outside com antenna while flying alone in my airplane.? A quick telephone call to the tower from the cell phone (I always attempt to remember to configure the phone blue tooth to the BOSE pilot head set while obtaining the ATIS during pre-flight) is far simpler and safer given the process of switching and configuring the portable.? ? As "Frank" already iterated, telephone cell signal is NOT guaranteed .? If I encounter the failure while on the ground, prior to attempting a return flight to KROA the choice is obvious.? ?The telephone is still an option while connected to the portable,should II need to rely on it.? An extra layer of redundancy is a good measure of safety.? I also try to remember that? "a good pilot always uses all available information and resources."
Again My two cents worth.
Thanks again, Ron M
Good Topic
Ron,
?Your question is it legal? The answer is well above my paygrade. The rules are to enter class C airspace two-way radio communication must be established. In your case you used your cell phone to do this and it worked at KROA. At least the one time. Fortunately, you got your main radio fixed. Did you squawk 7600? Should my cell phone be my only backup? Seems logical, everybody has one, needs to stay charged, signals have become more reliable. Last resort probably yes if that is the plan. Is that a good plan? Should I be flying with my cell phone ON all the time? Should I be taking calls while in the air as PIC? Should I ask ground control for a place to stop taxing so I can make calls. We've done it at the Airlines before. So I'd say it's not illegal until you get caught and somebody like Jack Smith is the prosecutor.
?
Additionally, procedure states two way radio communications. Problem is you have to go through class C airspace to get to the tower. Tower only airport, no problem, ie KLYH. The AIM has all the radio failure procedures. I'm not going to repeat here, that will be for your research.
?
?
Class C Airspace
- Definition.?Generally, that airspace from the surface to 4,000 feet above the airport elevation (charted in MSL) surrounding those airports that have an operational control tower, are serviced by a radar approach control, and that have a certain number of IFR operations or passenger enplanements. Although the configuration of each Class C airspace area is individually tailored, the airspace usually consists of a 5 NM radius core surface area that extends from the surface up to 4,000 feet above the airport elevation, and a 10 NM radius shelf area that extends no lower than 1,200?feet up to 4,000 feet above the airport elevation.
- Charts.?Class C airspace is charted on Sectional Charts, IFR En Route Low Altitude, and Terminal Area Charts where appropriate.
- Operating Rules and Pilot/Equipment Requirements:
- Pilot Certification.?No specific certification required.
- Equipment.
- Two©\way radio; and
- Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, an operable radar beacon transponder with automatic altitude reporting capability and operable??Out equipment.
NOTE-
See paragraph?, Transponder and??Out Operation, subparagraph??for Mode C transponder/??requirements for operating above Class C airspace.
- Arrival or Through Flight Entry Requirements.?Two©\way radio communication must be established with the ATC facility providing ATC services prior to entry and thereafter maintain those communications while in Class C airspace. Pilots of arriving aircraft should contact the Class C airspace ATC facility on the publicized frequency and give their position, altitude, radar beacon code, destination, and request Class C service. Radio contact should be initiated far enough from the Class C airspace boundary to preclude entering Class C airspace before two©\way radio communications are established.
NOTE-
- If the controller responds to a radio call with, ¡°(aircraft callsign) standby,¡± radio communications have been established and the pilot can enter the Class C airspace.
- If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision of Class C services, the controller will inform the pilot to remain outside the Class C airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided.
- It is important to understand that if the controller responds to the initial radio call without using the aircraft identification, radio communications have not been established and the pilot may not enter the Class C airspace.
- Class C airspace areas have a procedural Outer Area. Normally this area is 20 NM from the primary Class C airspace airport. Its vertical limit extends from the lower limits of radio/radar coverage up to the ceiling of the approach control's delegated airspace, excluding the Class C airspace itself, and other airspace as appropriate. (This outer area is not charted.)
- Pilots approaching an airport with Class C service should be aware that if they descend below the base altitude of the 5 to 10 mile shelf during an instrument or visual approach, they may encounter non-transponder/non-ADS-B VFR aircraft.
EXAMPLE-
- [Aircraft callsign] ¡°remain outside the Class Charlie airspace and standby.¡±
- ¡°Aircraft calling Dulles approach control, standby.¡±
?
Best,
Mike
|
Hi All, I¡¯m not a member of the chapter but attended one meeting at the hangar. I¡¯m a CFI and an Airline Pilot. My 2 cents¡.. Aviation isn¡¯t cheap¡. Most homebuilts have one radio¡. My one flying has one, my one under construction will have same. But as far as using a cellphone as a backup???? No. Handheld portable radios have come down in price (and in capability) where it¡¯s a good investment to carry THAT as a back up, not a cellphone¡. Watching this long back and forth email finally said ok gotta inject the obvious. Buy a portable radio for a backup.
Rik Cathcart? Zenith 650/ 750 STOL
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 29, 2024, at 10:21, Mike Brown <adrifter2@...> wrote:
? Good Topic
Ron,
?Your question is it legal? The answer is well above my paygrade. The rules are to enter class C airspace two-way radio communication must be established. In your case you used your cell phone to do this and it worked at KROA. At least the one time. Fortunately, you got your main radio fixed. Did you squawk 7600? Should my cell phone be my only backup? Seems logical, everybody has one, needs to stay charged, signals have become more reliable. Last resort probably yes if that is the plan. Is that a good plan? Should I be flying with my cell phone ON all the time? Should I be taking calls while in the air as PIC? Should I ask ground control for a place to stop taxing so I can make calls. We've done it at the Airlines before. So I'd say it's not illegal until you get caught and somebody like Jack Smith is the prosecutor.
?
Additionally, procedure states two way radio communications. Problem is you have to go through class C airspace to get to the tower. Tower only airport, no problem, ie KLYH. The AIM has all the radio failure procedures. I'm not going to repeat here, that will be for your research.
?
?
Class C Airspace
- Definition.?Generally, that airspace from the surface to 4,000 feet above the airport elevation (charted in MSL) surrounding those airports that have an operational control tower, are serviced by a radar approach control, and that have a certain number of IFR operations or passenger enplanements. Although the configuration of each Class C airspace area is individually tailored, the airspace usually consists of a 5 NM radius core surface area that extends from the surface up to 4,000 feet above the airport elevation, and a 10 NM radius shelf area that extends no lower than 1,200?feet up to 4,000 feet above the airport elevation.
- Charts.?Class C airspace is charted on Sectional Charts, IFR En Route Low Altitude, and Terminal Area Charts where appropriate.
- Operating Rules and Pilot/Equipment Requirements:
- Pilot Certification.?No specific certification required.
- Equipment.
- Two©\way radio; and
- Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, an operable radar beacon transponder with automatic altitude reporting capability and operable??Out equipment.
NOTE-
See paragraph?, Transponder and??Out Operation, subparagraph??for Mode C transponder/??requirements for operating above Class C airspace.
- Arrival or Through Flight Entry Requirements.?Two©\way radio communication must be established with the ATC facility providing ATC services prior to entry and thereafter maintain those communications while in Class C airspace. Pilots of arriving aircraft should contact the Class C airspace ATC facility on the publicized frequency and give their position, altitude, radar beacon code, destination, and request Class C service. Radio contact should be initiated far enough from the Class C airspace boundary to preclude entering Class C airspace before two©\way radio communications are established.
NOTE-
- If the controller responds to a radio call with, ¡°(aircraft callsign) standby,¡± radio communications have been established and the pilot can enter the Class C airspace.
- If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision of Class C services, the controller will inform the pilot to remain outside the Class C airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided.
- It is important to understand that if the controller responds to the initial radio call without using the aircraft identification, radio communications have not been established and the pilot may not enter the Class C airspace.
- Class C airspace areas have a procedural Outer Area. Normally this area is 20 NM from the primary Class C airspace airport. Its vertical limit extends from the lower limits of radio/radar coverage up to the ceiling of the approach control's delegated airspace, excluding the Class C airspace itself, and other airspace as appropriate. (This outer area is not charted.)
- Pilots approaching an airport with Class C service should be aware that if they descend below the base altitude of the 5 to 10 mile shelf during an instrument or visual approach, they may encounter non-transponder/non-ADS-B VFR aircraft.
EXAMPLE-
- [Aircraft callsign] ¡°remain outside the Class Charlie airspace and standby.¡±
- ¡°Aircraft calling Dulles approach control, standby.¡±
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Best,
Mike
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Good Topic
Ron,
?Your question is it legal? The answer is well above my paygrade. The rules are to enter class C airspace two-way radio communication must be established. In your case you used your cell phone to do this and it worked at KROA. At least the one time. Fortunately, you got your main radio fixed. Did you squawk 7600? Should my cell phone be my only backup? Seems logical, everybody has one, needs to stay charged, signals have become more reliable. Last resort probably yes if that is the plan. Is that a good plan? Should I be flying with my cell phone ON all the time? Should I be taking calls while in the air as PIC? Should I ask ground control for a place to stop taxing so I can make calls. We've done it at the Airlines before. So I'd say it's not illegal until you get caught and somebody like Jack Smith is the prosecutor.
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Additionally, procedure states two way radio communications. Problem is you have to go through class C airspace to get to the tower. Tower only airport, no problem, ie KLYH. The AIM has all the radio failure procedures. I'm not going to repeat here, that will be for your research.
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Class C Airspace
- Definition.?Generally, that airspace from the surface to 4,000 feet above the airport elevation (charted in MSL) surrounding those airports that have an operational control tower, are serviced by a radar approach control, and that have a certain number of IFR operations or passenger enplanements. Although the configuration of each Class C airspace area is individually tailored, the airspace usually consists of a 5 NM radius core surface area that extends from the surface up to 4,000 feet above the airport elevation, and a 10 NM radius shelf area that extends no lower than 1,200?feet up to 4,000 feet above the airport elevation.
- Charts.?Class C airspace is charted on Sectional Charts, IFR En Route Low Altitude, and Terminal Area Charts where appropriate.
- Operating Rules and Pilot/Equipment Requirements:
- Pilot Certification.?No specific certification required.
- Equipment.
- Two©\way radio; and
- Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, an operable radar beacon transponder with automatic altitude reporting capability and operable??Out equipment.
NOTE-
See paragraph?, Transponder and??Out Operation, subparagraph??for Mode C transponder/??requirements for operating above Class C airspace.
- Arrival or Through Flight Entry Requirements.?Two©\way radio communication must be established with the ATC facility providing ATC services prior to entry and thereafter maintain those communications while in Class C airspace. Pilots of arriving aircraft should contact the Class C airspace ATC facility on the publicized frequency and give their position, altitude, radar beacon code, destination, and request Class C service. Radio contact should be initiated far enough from the Class C airspace boundary to preclude entering Class C airspace before two©\way radio communications are established.
NOTE-
- If the controller responds to a radio call with, ¡°(aircraft callsign) standby,¡± radio communications have been established and the pilot can enter the Class C airspace.
- If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision of Class C services, the controller will inform the pilot to remain outside the Class C airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided.
- It is important to understand that if the controller responds to the initial radio call without using the aircraft identification, radio communications have not been established and the pilot may not enter the Class C airspace.
- Class C airspace areas have a procedural Outer Area. Normally this area is 20 NM from the primary Class C airspace airport. Its vertical limit extends from the lower limits of radio/radar coverage up to the ceiling of the approach control's delegated airspace, excluding the Class C airspace itself, and other airspace as appropriate. (This outer area is not charted.)
- Pilots approaching an airport with Class C service should be aware that if they descend below the base altitude of the 5 to 10 mile shelf during an instrument or visual approach, they may encounter non-transponder/non-ADS-B VFR aircraft.
EXAMPLE-
- [Aircraft callsign] ¡°remain outside the Class Charlie airspace and standby.¡±
- ¡°Aircraft calling Dulles approach control, standby.¡±
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Best,
Mike
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Blake:? Thank you for your research on this issue.? ?Your CFI's recommendation exactly parallels my thoughts.? The safety margin is considerably augmented if the tower controller simulcasts your clearance both over the tower frequency and back to you over the telephone.? The simulcast portion of the task would be up to the controller.
We will wait to hopefully hear back from Mike Brown, he is also a CFI with considerable flight experience.? Situations like this usually benefit from several sources of information input and the collection of a multitude of experience.
Ron M
My CFI at star recommended to me, before resorting to light gun signals, to call the tower simply because it still brings back that one on one communication where there can be no mistaking what they are saying.? Blake Shaner
Personal: blakeshaner@... School: bshaner01@... CAP: Blake.Shaner@... Phone: (540)855-4331 ¡°Many of life¡¯s failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up.¡± ¨C Thomas Edison
On Aug 28, 2024, at 10:45?PM, Ron Milan via groups.io <ronmilan@...> wrote:
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Thanks Mike!? The question then becomes in a VFR flight, with a com failure, in/into a class Charlie space, what woudl be the legal ruling on using a cell telephone to communicate to the tower in effort to obtain a landing clearance???
Ron M
Replying to cell phone use in this feed.
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No, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and Federal Communications Commission (FCC) prohibit the use of cell phones while an aircraft is airborne due to the potential for interference with critical aircraft instruments. This includes all commercial flights and private flights operating under instrument flight rules (IFR).?
Cell phone signals could interfere with navigation instruments, radio altimeters, and overload cell towers on the ground. To comply with the regulations, you must put your device in airplane mode or disable its cellular connection before the aircraft leaves the ground. Failure to do so may result in a fine.?
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91.21 Portable electronic devices.
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(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the following U.S.-registered civil aircraft:
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(1) Aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate; or
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(2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR.
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(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to¡ª
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(1) Portable voice recorders;
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(2) Hearing aids;
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(3) Heart pacemakers;
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(4) Electric shavers; or
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(5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of the aircraft has determined will not cause interference with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.
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(c) In the case of an aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate, the determination required by paragraph (b)(5) of this section shall be made by that operator of the aircraft on which the particular device is to be used. In the case of other aircraft, the determination may be made by the pilot in command or other operator of the aircraft.
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Do people do it? Yes it happens. Cell phones IMHO in airplanes while moving are a terrible distraction especially if your the PIC. In an emergency you are allowed to throw the regulations out the windows to meet the emergency.?
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I suppose if you're operating VFR then you would not be violating 91.21 per say.
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C'est la vie
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