Re: Inconsistent CQCQCQ responses
On 12/20/2022 1:38 PM, John E. Malmberg wrote: On 12/19/2022 8:31 PM, VA3MCT wrote:
I removed the repeater from the setup and ran everything as simplex and all works fine.
This however makes use of this software for EmComm purposes very
limited for the 1700 square km that my team covers. So that is an interesting data point.? A repeater is full duplex, so not sure why that would change things as each radio is still half duplex. I would avoid using "ping all" through a repeater. Single pings should work, but also keep in mind not to send data while you are waiting for a response when a repeater is involved. D-Rats internally will start sending as soon as it has something to send. Currently it queues all data for sending before it looks to see if there is any incoming data. As such a ping all is going to send ping requests to all stations that it currently knows about. The receiving stations are going to start responding to the pings before the original sending station stops. In that case the capture effect will either cause a one of the sent pings or the response to the ping will be lost. I already have one ticket for to redesign the sending/receiving loop that is polling based into two loops that are event driven. It looks like after that is done, for half/duplex links like radios, the receiving loop should block the transmission of data, which should help reduce this type of issue. I am not sure when I can get started on this refactoring as it will be a bit of work. If you avoid cases were multiple d-rats systems could be transmitting at the same time, it should work. Just remind everyone that there is nothing to coordinate. 73, -John wb8tyw
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Re: Inconsistent CQCQCQ responses
It did! Was used on VHF/UHF there long before being used on HF. But mainly intended for point to point and not through a repeater.
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On 12/20/22 06:40, VA3MCT wrote:
I was under the impression that D-RATS came out of the D-STAR world, but maybe I need to learn more of its history.
--
/
* Amateur Radio Station AC0HY *
* W. Paul Mills SN807 *
* Assistant EC Alpha-1 ARES Shawnee/Wabaunsee, KS *
* President Kaw Valley Amateur Radio Club *
/
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Re: Inconsistent CQCQCQ responses
On 12/18/2022 5:57 AM, VA3MCT wrote: I am using "d-rats 0.3.10 beta 5 connect" all on Windows 10 with
full updates applied. Most current is 0.3.10 beta6 dev287. At /g/d-rats/files/D-Rats/D-RATS%20pre-release. Older versions are not getting updates. However, I do not know of anything in the new version that would address the problems that you are seeing. No bug fixes or maintenance is being done on the python2 version of D-Rats. I removed the repeater from the setup and ran everything as simplex and all works fine.
This however makes use of this software for EmComm purposes very
limited for the 1700 square km that my team covers. So that is an interesting data point. A repeater is full duplex, so not sure why that would change things as each radio is still half duplex. As it has been pointed out, the radios do not know when the repeater is transmitting so that they can wait to transmit. Each radio will start to respond as soon as any transmission specifically to them has completed. A ping all stations may cause a collision so that some transmissions are lost as has been pointed out. You can look at the logging in d-rats, and you can turn on the "sniff" function to get more data. This should let you see which transmissions were not received. Also the sniff function may tell you about partial frames received. 73, -John
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On 12/15/2022 8:41 AM, Patrick Connor via groups.io wrote: Try this:File>Preferences>TransfersSet Warmup Timeout to 1.Set
Warmup Length to 8 and increase as necessary until you have reliable
communications. > Patrick (N3TSZ) That feature works on the d-rats client, but is not implemented in the older ratflector code. The setting is there, but because of a typo in the code, it does nothing. You need to run the most current python3 version of the d-rats reflector for that feature to work. That update also adds all the same connection types that the client supports to the ratflector. 73, -John wb8tyw
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Re: Inconsistent CQCQCQ responses
Ron / WB3ILX?
Just to mention, DRATS can be linked to FLdigi just in case you are not aware of that capability.
Ron
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On Dec 20, 2022, at 7:42 AM, VA3MCT <va3mct@...> wrote:
? Randy,
All three radios have unique callsigns in them both at the radio level and then matched in their respective copy of D-RATS running on 3 separate?Windows 10 machines.
The ICOM repeater is true ICOM with the 2M Module. We have a 70CM module too, but not currently connected. And due to the location and security lockdowns of the site, it also has no?internet access. 73, Mike Crabtree - VA3MCT On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 at 21:57, Randy-W4LKS < w4lks@...> wrote:
Hi Mike...
Did the three radios have different and unique callsigns in
them?? You didn't say.
Is this an authentic ICOM D-STAR repeater?? You said no
gateway...but nothing else about the repeater.
Randy - W4LKS
On 12/19/2022 18:31, VA3MCT wrote:
I removed the repeater from the setup and ran everything as
simplex and all works fine.
This however makes use of this software for EmComm purposes very
limited for the 1700 square km that my team covers.
Thanks to all for your input.
73
Mike VA3MCT
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Re: Inconsistent CQCQCQ responses
Randy,
All three radios have unique callsigns in them both at the radio level and then matched in their respective copy of D-RATS running on 3 separate?Windows 10 machines.
The ICOM repeater is true ICOM with the 2M Module. We have a 70CM module too, but not currently connected. And due to the location and security lockdowns of the site, it also has no?internet access. 73, Mike Crabtree - VA3MCT
On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 at 21:57, Randy-W4LKS < w4lks@...> wrote:
Hi Mike...
Did the three radios have different and unique callsigns in
them?? You didn't say.
Is this an authentic ICOM D-STAR repeater?? You said no
gateway...but nothing else about the repeater.
Randy - W4LKS
On 12/19/2022 18:31, VA3MCT wrote:
I removed the repeater from the setup and ran everything as
simplex and all works fine.
This however makes use of this software for EmComm purposes very
limited for the 1700 square km that my team covers.
Thanks to all for your input.
73
Mike VA3MCT
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Re: Inconsistent CQCQCQ responses
Ron,
I was under the impression that D-RATS came out of the D-STAR world, but maybe I need to learn more of its history.
Indeed we could set up several?stations as relay points. However, we do not have that many people or available infrastructure.
Our group has focused heavily on Winlink Communications using both Packet and VARA with most users also capable of VARA HF. We have Winlink pretty well setup and I have been running training courses and also our own local Winlink Wednesday. And yes, we have tested VarAC on both FM and HF.
What I was hoping for was to be able to use the D-RATS capability to supplement communications, particularly since we bought into this technology a long time ago and all of our go-kits and our emcomm trailer has D-STAR radios. Just trying?to make the best of previous monies spent.
What I would also like to use is the D-RATS to Winlink capability, which I have tested locally and seems to work reasonably well, but lacks the forms. So for basic messaging its great, but for emcomm forms, D-RATS is lacking at this time. 73, Mike Crabtree - VA3MCT
On Mon, 19 Dec 2022 at 22:39, WB3ILX < wb3ilx@...> wrote: Hi WB3ILX/ Ron
DRATS was designed for HF.? If you have some folks in your group that must be on 2 meters can you set several control stations to act as relay points.? You might also investigate VarAC as you can relay through other stations using the built in Vmail function. I have not tried that on VarACFM but on HF it works very well.
Ron / WB3ILX On Dec 19, 2022, at 9:57 PM, Randy-W4LKS <w4lks@...> wrote:
?
Hi Mike...
Did the three radios have different and unique callsigns in
them?? You didn't say.
Is this an authentic ICOM D-STAR repeater?? You said no
gateway...but nothing else about the repeater.
Randy - W4LKS
On 12/19/2022 18:31, VA3MCT wrote:
I removed the repeater from the setup and ran everything as
simplex and all works fine.
This however makes use of this software for EmComm purposes very
limited for the 1700 square km that my team covers.
Thanks to all for your input.
73
Mike VA3MCT
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Re: Inconsistent CQCQCQ responses
Hi WB3ILX/ Ron
DRATS was designed for HF. ?If you have some folks in your group that must be on 2 meters can you set several control stations to act as relay points. ?You might also investigate VarAC as you can relay through other stations using the built in Vmail function. I have not tried that on VarACFM but on HF it works very well.
Ron / WB3ILX
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On Dec 19, 2022, at 9:57 PM, Randy-W4LKS <w4lks@...> wrote:
?
Hi Mike...
Did the three radios have different and unique callsigns in
them?? You didn't say.
Is this an authentic ICOM D-STAR repeater?? You said no
gateway...but nothing else about the repeater.
Randy - W4LKS
On 12/19/2022 18:31, VA3MCT wrote:
I removed the repeater from the setup and ran everything as
simplex and all works fine.
This however makes use of this software for EmComm purposes very
limited for the 1700 square km that my team covers.
Thanks to all for your input.
73
Mike VA3MCT
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Re: Inconsistent CQCQCQ responses
Hi Mike...
Did the three radios have different and unique callsigns in
them?? You didn't say.
Is this an authentic ICOM D-STAR repeater?? You said no
gateway...but nothing else about the repeater.
Randy - W4LKS
On 12/19/2022 18:31, VA3MCT wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I removed the repeater from the setup and ran everything as
simplex and all works fine.
This however makes use of this software for EmComm purposes very
limited for the 1700 square km that my team covers.
Thanks to all for your input.
73
Mike VA3MCT
|
Re: Inconsistent CQCQCQ responses
I removed the repeater from the setup and ran everything as simplex and all works fine.
This however makes use of this software for EmComm purposes very limited for the 1700 square km that my team covers.
Thanks to all for your input.
73
Mike VA3MCT
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Re: Inconsistent CQCQCQ responses
Glen,
Thank you for the explanation of the color coding of the callsigns in the Stations column. In my situation, because there is some kind of issue with the communications between these three radios, I am seeing a station come up as blue on one machine and black on another, or not at all.
My next test is to remove the repeater from this scenario and try on a simplex frequency.
As for the second comment about multiple copies of d-RATS running simultaneously, that is not the case with my testing.
73
Mike VA3MCT
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Re: Inconsistent CQCQCQ responses
The radios I am working with are all older models.
D-STAR ready
The ID-880H provides D-STAR DV mode digital voice and low-speed data communications.
The IC-80AD supports the D-STAR?“DV” mode, which transmits digital voice?concurrent with a low-speed (1200 bps) data?stream.?
In this case all 3 of the radios I am using can only handle the 1200bps data stream
73
Mike VA3MCT
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Re: Inconsistent CQCQCQ responses
On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 01:26 PM, WB3ILX wrote:
Also when doing RF with DRATS it is never a good idea to do a PING.
Ron, There is no SignalinkUSB involved here, though I do use them for Winlink Packet and VARA FM occasionally, but not at this time for this use case. I am also intrigued by the comment "Also when doing RF with DRATS it is never a good idea to do a PING." The D-RATS software enables it to work. If it's not a good idea, then maybe it should be removed when using an RF connection. I am NOT a D-STAR expert by any means, but could you please explain why this is not a good idea?? 73 Mike VA3MCT
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Re: Inconsistent CQCQCQ responses
Mike,
When a ping comes back with the station’s callsign in black, it indicates that the station just recently signed off.? Those in blue are online or on the air.? The reason to know that a station just went QRT lets you know that if you had
traffic for that station, it cannot presently go out.? You could either keep your station on the air until they come back up on frequency or redirect the message to one of the ratflectors acting as a file server and mail drop that would deliver the traffic
for you the next time the station is back.
?
As for the multiple IDs being seen, you might check to make sure that station did not accidentally bring up the D-Rats software twice.? Some of the Windows 10 machines are running quite slowly these days due to the large numbers of patches
and updates that have been added to them over time.? When trying to start the software we might sometimes click on the icon to start the program, but nothing seems to be happening, so we click on it again thinking it didn’t start, only to find out later that
we now have two instances of the software running on the same computer.? This would cause you to see that station’s call when you do a ping, because the second running software answered the ping and everyone else might see it twice.
?
I have never documented that problem happening any other way.
?
Cordially,
Glen – KG5CEN
StTammany.ratflector.com
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Re: Inconsistent CQCQCQ responses
Hi this Ron / WB3ILX,
If you are using a Signal link or any device in the 6 pin mini din on the 880H just plugging the device in puts the 899H into analog FM mode. ?At least it does on mine. ?Just FYI. ?The orange data cable should work with the 889H. ?Also when doing RF with DRATS it is never a good idea to do a PING.
Ron / WB3ILX
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On Dec 18, 2022, at 11:13 AM, Marius, YO2LOJ <marius@...> wrote:
?
Please also be aware that there are 2 data modes in D-Star: DV
low speed and DV ligh speed. DV high speed is not supported by all
radios, while low speed is supported by all of them.
On 18/12/2022 15:42, VA3MCT wrote:
Marius,
Thanks for the swift response.
I did think that was the issue I was seeing, Two radios both
trying to respond simultaneously to a single CQCQCQ.
I have now removed one of the radios and the D-RATS (closed it
down).
Now what I see is as follows:-
Station A runs Ping All Stations. Station B responds back to the
ping and marks Station A as Black in the Stations list
Station B runs Ping All Stations. Station A never responds. and I
never saw the Station A callsign on the radio screen. That might
lead me to think this is an RF issue.
However, if I go back to using the radio with an antenna in the
basement (Station C), then Station B and C can both see each other
without issue.
So I do not believe it is an RF issue and I do not believe it is a
lack of TDMA.?
I tried to make testing simpler by going to Chat on each of the
three stations. When doing Chat, its just one station sending out
with no expectation of an acknowledgement from the receiving
stations, unlike the ping.
Station A sending Chat is seen by Station B and C
Station B sending is seen by Station C but not Station A
Station C sending is seen by Station A and B
So, there would appear to be an issue with Station B's
transmission (ID-880H) as it is not seen by Station A (IC-80AD)
and yet it is seen by Station C (IC-80AD).
73
Mike VA3MCT
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Re: Inconsistent CQCQCQ responses
Please also be aware that there are 2 data modes in D-Star: DV
low speed and DV ligh speed. DV high speed is not supported by all
radios, while low speed is supported by all of them.
On 18/12/2022 15:42, VA3MCT wrote:
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Marius,
Thanks for the swift response.
I did think that was the issue I was seeing, Two radios both
trying to respond simultaneously to a single CQCQCQ.
I have now removed one of the radios and the D-RATS (closed it
down).
Now what I see is as follows:-
Station A runs Ping All Stations. Station B responds back to the
ping and marks Station A as Black in the Stations list
Station B runs Ping All Stations. Station A never responds. and I
never saw the Station A callsign on the radio screen. That might
lead me to think this is an RF issue.
However, if I go back to using the radio with an antenna in the
basement (Station C), then Station B and C can both see each other
without issue.
So I do not believe it is an RF issue and I do not believe it is a
lack of TDMA.?
I tried to make testing simpler by going to Chat on each of the
three stations. When doing Chat, its just one station sending out
with no expectation of an acknowledgement from the receiving
stations, unlike the ping.
Station A sending Chat is seen by Station B and C
Station B sending is seen by Station C but not Station A
Station C sending is seen by Station A and B
So, there would appear to be an issue with Station B's
transmission (ID-880H) as it is not seen by Station A (IC-80AD)
and yet it is seen by Station C (IC-80AD).
73
Mike VA3MCT
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Re: Inconsistent CQCQCQ responses
Marius,
Thanks for the swift response.
I did think that was the issue I was seeing, Two radios both trying to respond simultaneously to a single CQCQCQ.
I have now removed one of the radios and the D-RATS (closed it down).
Now what I see is as follows:-
Station A runs Ping All Stations. Station B responds back to the ping and marks Station A as Black in the Stations list
Station B runs Ping All Stations. Station A never responds. and I never saw the Station A callsign on the radio screen. That might lead me to think this is an RF issue.
However, if I go back to using the radio with an antenna in the basement (Station C), then Station B and C can both see each other without issue.
So I do not believe it is an RF issue and I do not believe it is a lack of TDMA.?
I tried to make testing simpler by going to Chat on each of the three stations. When doing Chat, its just one station sending out with no expectation of an acknowledgement from the receiving stations, unlike the ping.
Station A sending Chat is seen by Station B and C
Station B sending is seen by Station C but not Station A
Station C sending is seen by Station A and B
So, there would appear to be an issue with Station B's transmission (ID-880H) as it is not seen by Station A (IC-80AD) and yet it is seen by Station C (IC-80AD).
73
Mike VA3MCT
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Re: Inconsistent CQCQCQ responses
This is a consequence of the CDMA concept in D-Star data
transmissions and to the fact that the radio's "are all programmed
the same except for callsign".
The radios will check both that the channel is available and start
to transmit, using similar timings. Depending on the small delay
difference between the radios, they will either transmit or not.
But there is a chance that both will see the radio channel
available and start transmitting at the same time. This will get
dramatically worse if the radios can not hear each other, and only
hear the repeater.
Since the 'ping all stations' is not connection oriented,
responses will overlap, with one or even both data packets being
compromised, depending on the RSSI at the receiving side.
Unless there is no form of TDMA implemented (remember DAMA for
ax.25?), there is not much that can be done in this situation: P2P
will work decently, P2MP will have these issues.
Marius, YO2LOJ
On 18/12/2022 13:57, VA3MCT wrote:
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I am testing out D-RATS for my local club from an EmComm
perspective, because we bought into D-STAR a while back and have a
large number of ID-880H and IC-80AD radios and I want t put them
to use.
I have three radios all at my home location, the ID-880H is using
an externally mounted antenna, one of the handhelds is using a
mobile antenna installed in an upstairs room and the second
handheld is using a very basic outdoor antenna inside my basement.
We have one local D-STAR repeater which unfortunately has no
gateway, but that's a separate issue for a different forum. All
radios are tuned to this one single repeater.
I am using "d-rats 0.3.10 beta 5 connect"? all on Windows 10 with
full updates applied.
All radios use a USB to RS-232 and then RS-232 to the 2.5mm TRS
connector on the radio.
What I find is that when I run "Ping all Stations", sometimes I
get two responses from the other two radios and sometimes I only
get one response and yet I know the other radio sent a reply. Each
radio should see a response from each of the other two radios.
I have checked the settings in the radios so that they are all
programmed the same except for callsign. I have checked the D-RATS
config to ensure they are all set the same except for callsign,
Name and ping reply.
I had this problem before and it seemed to get fixed by moving the
USB to a different physical port on the computer and picking up a
new serial port number, but that only seemed to last a few days.
I saw the details in a previous message about performance through
a repeater and the warmup times settings and played with those,
but no change.
If I take one of the radios out of the equation, and do a ping all
stations, I do seem to get a response back from the missing radio,
but it is marked in black and not blue, which I assume means it
was heard but not acknowledged in some way.
Can anyone suggest what else I should be looking into?
73
Mike VA3MCT EC York Region ARES
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Inconsistent CQCQCQ responses
I am testing out D-RATS for my local club from an EmComm perspective, because we bought into D-STAR a while back and have a large number of ID-880H and IC-80AD radios and I want t put them to use.
I have three radios all at my home location, the ID-880H is using an externally mounted antenna, one of the handhelds is using a mobile antenna installed in an upstairs room and the second handheld is using a very basic outdoor antenna inside my basement.
We have one local D-STAR repeater which unfortunately has no gateway, but that's a separate issue for a different forum. All radios are tuned to this one single repeater.
I am using "d-rats 0.3.10 beta 5 connect"? all on Windows 10 with full updates applied.
All radios use a USB to RS-232 and then RS-232 to the 2.5mm TRS connector on the radio.
What I find is that when I run "Ping all Stations", sometimes I get two responses from the other two radios and sometimes I only get one response and yet I know the other radio sent a reply. Each radio should see a response from each of the other two radios.
I have checked the settings in the radios so that they are all programmed the same except for callsign. I have checked the D-RATS config to ensure they are all set the same except for callsign, Name and ping reply.
I had this problem before and it seemed to get fixed by moving the USB to a different physical port on the computer and picking up a new serial port number, but that only seemed to last a few days.
I saw the details in a previous message about performance through a repeater and the warmup times settings and played with those, but no change.
If I take one of the radios out of the equation, and do a ping all stations, I do seem to get a response back from the missing radio, but it is marked in black and not blue, which I assume means it was heard but not acknowledged in some way.
Can anyone suggest what else I should be looking into?
73
Mike VA3MCT EC York Region ARES
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Try this: File>Preferences>Transfers Set Warmup Timeout to 1. Set Warmup Length to 8 and increase as necessary until you have reliable communications.
Patrick (N3TSZ)
On Thursday, December 15, 2022 at 07:35:10 AM EST, Michael Mandell <mikemandell@...> wrote:
Our weekly group uses a nice Icom repeater stack for D-Rats practice weekly. We have found chat is fine, but file transfers are slower and less reliable over the repeater than simplex. We suspect a timing issue with the repeater with ACK/NAK D-Rats stuff. Anybody have suggested settings for D-Rats to account for the slight repeater timing delay??
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Randy-W4LKS
Glen Strecker
Patrick Connor