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I use the same analogs that would have driven my Extron Switcher and drop em on the the DMPS module. The DSP, I totally feel ya, it sucks balls and anything with AC/VC gotta add a real DSP for echo cancellation and microphones but I still use the amp. In the end my base program did not change at all when I use a DMPS. Add a couple signals to the module to route the audio and bam your done. No time difference.

So why does this make it that you have to re-invent the wheel on every program.

--- In Crestron@..., "wretaudio" <wretaudio@> wrote:

The main control issues involve control of the DMPS itself. Control of third party devices is not the problem, except for when Crestron updates their database and causes your com ports to stop working. If it takes you the same amount of time to work up a DMPS system as it does for a CP2E with a real DSP and Extron video switcher, then please let me know your secret.

--- In Crestron@..., "sfprogrammer" <rjanssen@> wrote:

Seriously, Just because you have different devices in job doesn't mean you can't have modular programming. Now I can see where these things can over sold a bit but really there is nothing new or different about a video switcher and an audio DSP. I would be bummed if I was your manager and saw this.

--- In Crestron@..., "wretaudio" <wretaudio@> wrote:

You must be one of the lucky ones that can mainly copy an old system and paste it for the next one. Every room I program is different. Different gear and different functionality every time. This is by no means a terrific product line for a custom integrator. Custom integration use to be the reason to spec Crestron, but not anymore. Hang and bang/cookie cutter systems are all the DMPS line is good for.

--- In Crestron@..., "garrettmcw" <garrettmcw@> wrote:

Speaking as the sales guy *and* the programmer, I actually love this box. It has enabled my team to push a ton of conference room work through the shop this year, producing many happy clients and good referrals. I understand and sympathize with the gripes but in the big picture this is a terrific product line.


--- In Crestron@..., "wretaudio" <wretaudio@> wrote:

Long compile times, firmware update failures, hardware failures, long boot times, long initialize times, inaccurate feedback, new device databases that make your older programs stop working..............etc., etc., etc.,

Our sales guys love this box and our installers and programmers can't make them stop selling it. I guess my real question is, how do you convince a salesman to stop selling DMPS's?

I use the same analogs that would have driven my Extron Switcher and drop em on the the DMPS module. The DSP, I totally feel ya, it sucks balls and anything with AC/VC gotta add a real DSP for echo cancellation and microphones but I still use the amp. In the end my base program did not change at all when I use a DMPS. Add a couple signals to the module to route the audio and bam your done. No time difference.

So why does this make it that you have to re-invent the wheel on every program.

--- In Crestron@..., "wretaudio" <wretaudio@> wrote:

The main control issues involve control of the DMPS itself. Control of third party devices is not the problem, except for when Crestron updates their database and causes your com ports to stop working. If it takes you the same amount of time to work up a DMPS system as it does for a CP2E with a real DSP and Extron video switcher, then please let me know your secret.

--- In Crestron@..., "sfprogrammer" <rjanssen@> wrote:

Seriously, Just because you have different devices in job doesn't mean you can't have modular programming. Now I can see where these things can over sold a bit but really there is nothing new or different about a video switcher and an audio DSP. I would be bummed if I was your manager and saw this.

--- In Crestron@..., "wretaudio" <wretaudio@> wrote:

You must be one of the lucky ones that can mainly copy an old system and paste it for the next one. Every room I program is different. Different gear and different functionality every time. This is by no means a terrific product line for a custom integrator. Custom integration use to be the reason to spec Crestron, but not anymore. Hang and bang/cookie cutter systems are all the DMPS line is good for.

--- In Crestron@..., "garrettmcw" <garrettmcw@> wrote:

Speaking as the sales guy *and* the programmer, I actually love this box. It has enabled my team to push a ton of conference room work through the shop this year, producing many happy clients and good referrals. I understand and sympathize with the gripes but in the big picture this is a terrific product line.


--- In Crestron@..., "wretaudio" <wretaudio@> wrote:

Long compile times, firmware update failures, hardware failures, long boot times, long initialize times, inaccurate feedback, new device databases that make your older programs stop working..............etc., etc., etc.,

Our sales guys love this box and our installers and programmers can't make them stop selling it. I guess my real question is, how do you convince a salesman to stop selling DMPS's?

I use the same analogs that would have driven my Extron Switcher and drop em on the the DMPS module. The DSP, I totally feel ya, it sucks balls and anything with AC/VC gotta add a real DSP for echo cancellation and microphones but I still use the amp. In the end my base program did not change at all when I use a DMPS. Add a couple signals to the module to route the audio and bam your done. No time difference.

So why does this make it that you have to re-invent the wheel on every program.

--- In Crestron@..., "wretaudio" <wretaudio@> wrote:

The main control issues involve control of the DMPS itself. Control of third party devices is not the problem, except for when Crestron updates their database and causes your com ports to stop working. If it takes you the same amount of time to work up a DMPS system as it does for a CP2E with a real DSP and Extron video switcher, then please let me know your secret.

--- In Crestron@..., "sfprogrammer" <rjanssen@> wrote:

Seriously, Just because you have different devices in job doesn't mean you can't have modular programming. Now I can see where these things can over sold a bit but really there is nothing new or different about a video switcher and an audio DSP. I would be bummed if I was your manager and saw this.

--- In Crestron@..., "wretaudio" <wretaudio@> wrote:

You must be one of the lucky ones that can mainly copy an old system and paste it for the next one. Every room I program is different. Different gear and different functionality every time. This is by no means a terrific product line for a custom integrator. Custom integration use to be the reason to spec Crestron, but not anymore. Hang and bang/cookie cutter systems are all the DMPS line is good for.

--- In Crestron@..., "garrettmcw" <garrettmcw@> wrote:

Speaking as the sales guy *and* the programmer, I actually love this box. It has enabled my team to push a ton of conference room work through the shop this year, producing many happy clients and good referrals. I understand and sympathize with the gripes but in the big picture this is a terrific product line.


--- In Crestron@..., "wretaudio" <wretaudio@> wrote:

Long compile times, firmware update failures, hardware failures, long boot times, long initialize times, inaccurate feedback, new device databases that make your older programs stop working..............etc., etc., etc.,

Our sales guys love this box and our installers and programmers can't make them stop selling it. I guess my real question is, how do you convince a salesman to stop selling DMPS's?

The main control issues involve control of the DMPS itself. Control of third party devices is not the problem, except for when Crestron updates their database and causes your com ports to stop working. If it takes you the same amount of time to work up a DMPS system as it does for a CP2E with a real DSP and Extron video switcher, then please let me know your secret.

--- In Crestron@..., "sfprogrammer" <rjanssen@> wrote:

Seriously, Just because you have different devices in job doesn't mean you can't have modular programming. Now I can see where these things can over sold a bit but really there is nothing new or different about a video switcher and an audio DSP. I would be bummed if I was your manager and saw this.

--- In Crestron@..., "wretaudio" <wretaudio@> wrote:

You must be one of the lucky ones that can mainly copy an old system and paste it for the next one. Every room I program is different. Different gear and different functionality every time. This is by no means a terrific product line for a custom integrator. Custom integration use to be the reason to spec Crestron, but not anymore. Hang and bang/cookie cutter systems are all the DMPS line is good for.

--- In Crestron@..., "garrettmcw" <garrettmcw@> wrote:

Speaking as the sales guy *and* the programmer, I actually love this box. It has enabled my team to push a ton of conference room work through the shop this year, producing many happy clients and good referrals. I understand and sympathize with the gripes but in the big picture this is a terrific product line.


--- In Crestron@..., "wretaudio" <wretaudio@> wrote:

Long compile times, firmware update failures, hardware failures, long boot times, long initialize times, inaccurate feedback, new device databases that make your older programs stop working..............etc., etc., etc.,

Our sales guys love this box and our installers and programmers can't make them stop selling it. I guess my real question is, how do you convince a salesman to stop selling DMPS's?

This is a great line:

"Another big problem with the DMPS is that it seems to be very stable once it is programmed and tested, and my customers are very happy with it, ordering more all the time."

I should have more problems like that! But seriously guys, sure there is some room for improvement.

1. The audio path is clearly not what we need. We since have brought on a new audio product technology manager. I have also reached out to a few people on this group to get some more detailed feedback on this.

2. The initial release had big, big performance problems. But we believe that we made massive improvements in terms of the module size, i.e. compile time as well. Please make sure you are using the latest firmware and tools! If you are having concerns about compile time and such please do me a favor (I need the ammunition as well) - give me your compile/load times, etc. and give me the comparison - a processor with some sort of a switcher and an outboard DSP and tell me how long that takes. Also please throw in operating system and processor speed as well.

3. The other miscellaneous issues I have heard about - I assume they were all reported to support - I can check with them but didn't yet. But are these one-offs or things you are seeing over and over again.

4. What's the problem with the front panel? It sounds like its believed that this is a major cause of bloat somehow? Honestly there isn't much in that module to drive the front panel.

To be clear, I'm not saying there aren't any problems. I want to make sure they are clarified.

Thanks,

John Pavlik
Crestron Electronics, Inc.
Director, Architecture & Design

From: Crestron@... [mailto:Crestron@...] On Behalf Of jbudz1977
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 12:31 PM
To: Crestron@...
Subject: [Crestron] Re: Will there ever be a time when the DMPS line doesn't suck?



I don't think so... they will always be a pain to work with until they eliminate the uber-module and let us have direct hardware access like we do in a DM-MDXxX.

I'v been pretty annoyed by the database changes, especially the one that made the COM ports stop working - lost hours trying to figure out what was going on, it wasn't until I posted here that the answer was found.

The biggest problem with the DMPS is that the box has awesome features for an awesome price, so salespeople will continue to specify it. If you look at the total cost of re-creating a DMPS-300-C using a control processor and a DM8x8 it will be a lot more $$, and you would still need a 3rd party DSP for the mics.

Another big problem with the DMPS is that it seems to be very stable once it is programmed and tested, and my customers are very happy with it, ordering more all the time.

Maybe tell the salespeople to double their programming estimates with DMPS to account for all the dead time that the unit causes.

Personally, I feel major resentment towards Crestron about this box. I have a strong suspicion that the pain that these boxes cause is not necessary, but some manager said "it has to have a front panel" and "it has to have an uber-module to make it 'easy' to program."

The most success I've had with these is in cookie-cutter rooms, it's not so bad to configure and upload to one of these, I can usually get it done in about an hour or so.

--- In Crestron@...<mailto:Crestron%40yahoogroups.com>, "wretaudio" <wretaudio@<mailto:wretaudio@>> wrote:

Long compile times, firmware update failures, hardware failures, long boot times, long initialize times, inaccurate feedback, new device databases that make your older programs stop working..............etc., etc., etc.,

Our sales guys love this box and our installers and programmers can't make them stop selling it. I guess my real question is, how do you convince a salesman to stop selling DMPS's?

This e-mail message and all attachments transmitted with it may contain legally privileged and confidential information intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any reading, dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Seriously, Just because you have different devices in job doesn't mean you can't have modular programming. Now I can see where these things can over sold a bit but really there is nothing new or different about a video switcher and an audio DSP. I would be bummed if I was your manager and saw this.

--- In Crestron@..., "wretaudio" <wretaudio@> wrote:

You must be one of the lucky ones that can mainly copy an old system and paste it for the next one. Every room I program is different. Different gear and different functionality every time. This is by no means a terrific product line for a custom integrator. Custom integration use to be the reason to spec Crestron, but not anymore. Hang and bang/cookie cutter systems are all the DMPS line is good for.

--- In Crestron@..., "garrettmcw" <garrettmcw@> wrote:

Speaking as the sales guy *and* the programmer, I actually love this box. It has enabled my team to push a ton of conference room work through the shop this year, producing many happy clients and good referrals. I understand and sympathize with the gripes but in the big picture this is a terrific product line.


--- In Crestron@..., "wretaudio" <wretaudio@> wrote:

Long compile times, firmware update failures, hardware failures, long boot times, long initialize times, inaccurate feedback, new device databases that make your older programs stop working..............etc., etc., etc.,

Our sales guys love this box and our installers and programmers can't make them stop selling it. I guess my real question is, how do you convince a salesman to stop selling DMPS's?

This is a great line:

"Another big problem with the DMPS is that it seems to be very stable once it is programmed and tested, and my customers are very happy with it, ordering more all the time."

I should have more problems like that! But seriously guys, sure there is some room for improvement.

1. The audio path is clearly not what we need. We since have brought on a new audio product technology manager. I have also reached out to a few people on this group to get some more detailed feedback on this.

2. The initial release had big, big performance problems. But we believe that we made massive improvements in terms of the module size, i.e. compile time as well. Please make sure you are using the latest firmware and tools! If you are having concerns about compile time and such please do me a favor (I need the ammunition as well) - give me your compile/load times, etc. and give me the comparison - a processor with some sort of a switcher and an outboard DSP and tell me how long that takes. Also please throw in operating system and processor speed as well.

3. The other miscellaneous issues I have heard about - I assume they were all reported to support - I can check with them but didn't yet. But are these one-offs or things you are seeing over and over again.

4. What's the problem with the front panel? It sounds like its believed that this is a major cause of bloat somehow? Honestly there isn't much in that module to drive the front panel.

To be clear, I'm not saying there aren't any problems. I want to make sure they are clarified.

Thanks,

John Pavlik
Crestron Electronics, Inc.
Director, Architecture & Design

From: Crestron@... [mailto:Crestron@...] On Behalf Of jbudz1977
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 12:31 PM
To: Crestron@...
Subject: [Crestron] Re: Will there ever be a time when the DMPS line doesn't suck?



I don't think so... they will always be a pain to work with until they eliminate the uber-module and let us have direct hardware access like we do in a DM-MDXxX.

I'v been pretty annoyed by the database changes, especially the one that made the COM ports stop working - lost hours trying to figure out what was going on, it wasn't until I posted here that the answer was found.

The biggest problem with the DMPS is that the box has awesome features for an awesome price, so salespeople will continue to specify it. If you look at the total cost of re-creating a DMPS-300-C using a control processor and a DM8x8 it will be a lot more $$, and you would still need a 3rd party DSP for the mics.

Another big problem with the DMPS is that it seems to be very stable once it is programmed and tested, and my customers are very happy with it, ordering more all the time.

Maybe tell the salespeople to double their programming estimates with DMPS to account for all the dead time that the unit causes.

Personally, I feel major resentment towards Crestron about this box. I have a strong suspicion that the pain that these boxes cause is not necessary, but some manager said "it has to have a front panel" and "it has to have an uber-module to make it 'easy' to program."

The most success I've had with these is in cookie-cutter rooms, it's not so bad to configure and upload to one of these, I can usually get it done in about an hour or so.

--- In Crestron@...<mailto:Crestron%40yahoogroups.com>, "wretaudio" <wretaudio@<mailto:wretaudio@>> wrote:

Long compile times, firmware update failures, hardware failures, long boot times, long initialize times, inaccurate feedback, new device databases that make your older programs stop working..............etc., etc., etc.,

Our sales guys love this box and our installers and programmers can't make them stop selling it. I guess my real question is, how do you convince a salesman to stop selling DMPS's?

This e-mail message and all attachments transmitted with it may contain legally privileged and confidential information intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any reading, dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You must be one of the lucky ones that can mainly copy an old system and paste it for the next one. Every room I program is different. Different gear and different functionality every time. This is by no means a terrific product line for a custom integrator. Custom integration use to be the reason to spec Crestron, but not anymore. Hang and bang/cookie cutter systems are all the DMPS line is good for.

--- In Crestron@..., "garrettmcw" <garrettmcw@> wrote:

Speaking as the sales guy *and* the programmer, I actually love this box. It has enabled my team to push a ton of conference room work through the shop this year, producing many happy clients and good referrals. I understand and sympathize with the gripes but in the big picture this is a terrific product line.


--- In Crestron@..., "wretaudio" <wretaudio@> wrote:

Long compile times, firmware update failures, hardware failures, long boot times, long initialize times, inaccurate feedback, new device databases that make your older programs stop working..............etc., etc., etc.,

Our sales guys love this box and our installers and programmers can't make them stop selling it. I guess my real question is, how do you convince a salesman to stop selling DMPS's?

Speaking as the sales guy *and* the programmer, I actually love this box. It has enabled my team to push a ton of conference room work through the shop this year, producing many happy clients and good referrals. I understand and sympathize with the gripes but in the big picture this is a terrific product line.


--- In Crestron@..., "wretaudio" <wretaudio@> wrote:

Long compile times, firmware update failures, hardware failures, long boot times, long initialize times, inaccurate feedback, new device databases that make your older programs stop working..............etc., etc., etc.,

Our sales guys love this box and our installers and programmers can't make them stop selling it. I guess my real question is, how do you convince a salesman to stop selling DMPS's?

I'm sorry dudes I love this box, yes it's having it's growing pains and I have had a couple of times where it was slightly oversold. The fact remains that this is a perfect box for basic conference room installs and the price point is right on the money. I really have not had all the problems described here but then again I keep pretty up to date with the devices I use on a regular basis and always let the firmware chill for a week or so before I install it on a functioning box. Long compile and reboot times... Really this is going to keep you from selling this piece - seriously grow up dudes - do you guys even remember how hard it was to load the old touch panels over cresnet or serial on they still looked like crap. Our company did over 50 different installs last year and all are happily running holding video conferences and displaying presentations.

I absolutely agree that Crestron should give us the option to remove the OOTBF stuff take full control of the box. But it's not a deal breaker for me.

I do not understand why you are all having so much trouble but I will gladly take those jobs off your hands if you don't want em :]

Cheers,

Rob J.

--- In Crestron@..., "wretaudio" <wretaudio@> wrote:

I am to the point where I do not believe that any money is saved by the cost savings of there boxes due to the amount of time lost in firmware updating, programming, and debugging. I have lost quite a bit of time recently when a DMPS went bad, so we replaced it, but all of our DSP settings were lost forever, so we had to tune the DSP all over again. We also had to make yet another trip too the job site because we failed to turn phantom power on on the mic inputs, since that setting was lost when we changed out the DMPS's. Every time I use a DMPS, I find another reason to hate these boxes.

--- In Crestron@..., "jbudz1977" <jbudz1977@> wrote:

I don't think so... they will always be a pain to work with until they eliminate the uber-module and let us have direct hardware access like we do in a DM-MDXxX.

I'v been pretty annoyed by the database changes, especially the one that made the COM ports stop working - lost hours trying to figure out what was going on, it wasn't until I posted here that the answer was found.

The biggest problem with the DMPS is that the box has awesome features for an awesome price, so salespeople will continue to specify it. If you look at the total cost of re-creating a DMPS-300-C using a control processor and a DM8x8 it will be a lot more $$, and you would still need a 3rd party DSP for the mics.

Another big problem with the DMPS is that it seems to be very stable once it is programmed and tested, and my customers are very happy with it, ordering more all the time.

Maybe tell the salespeople to double their programming estimates with DMPS to account for all the dead time that the unit causes.

Personally, I feel major resentment towards Crestron about this box. I have a strong suspicion that the pain that these boxes cause is not necessary, but some manager said "it has to have a front panel" and "it has to have an uber-module to make it 'easy' to program."

The most success I've had with these is in cookie-cutter rooms, it's not so bad to configure and upload to one of these, I can usually get it done in about an hour or so.



--- In Crestron@..., "wretaudio" <wretaudio@> wrote:

Long compile times, firmware update failures, hardware failures, long boot times, long initialize times, inaccurate feedback, new device databases that make your older programs stop working..............etc., etc., etc.,

Our sales guys love this box and our installers and programmers can't make them stop selling it. I guess my real question is, how do you convince a salesman to stop selling DMPS's?

Speaking as the sales guy *and* the programmer, I actually love this box. It has enabled my team to push a ton of conference room work through the shop this year, producing many happy clients and good referrals. I understand and sympathize with the gripes but in the big picture this is a terrific product line.


--- In Crestron@..., "wretaudio" <wretaudio@> wrote:

Long compile times, firmware update failures, hardware failures, long boot times, long initialize times, inaccurate feedback, new device databases that make your older programs stop working..............etc., etc., etc.,

Our sales guys love this box and our installers and programmers can't make them stop selling it. I guess my real question is, how do you convince a salesman to stop selling DMPS's?

I am to the point where I do not believe that any money is saved by the cost savings of there boxes due to the amount of time lost in firmware updating, programming, and debugging. I have lost quite a bit of time recently when a DMPS went bad, so we replaced it, but all of our DSP settings were lost forever, so we had to tune the DSP all over again. We also had to make yet another trip too the job site because we failed to turn phantom power on on the mic inputs, since that setting was lost when we changed out the DMPS's. Every time I use a DMPS, I find another reason to hate these boxes.

--- In Crestron@..., "jbudz1977" <jbudz1977@> wrote:

I don't think so... they will always be a pain to work with until they eliminate the uber-module and let us have direct hardware access like we do in a DM-MDXxX.

I'v been pretty annoyed by the database changes, especially the one that made the COM ports stop working - lost hours trying to figure out what was going on, it wasn't until I posted here that the answer was found.

The biggest problem with the DMPS is that the box has awesome features for an awesome price, so salespeople will continue to specify it. If you look at the total cost of re-creating a DMPS-300-C using a control processor and a DM8x8 it will be a lot more $$, and you would still need a 3rd party DSP for the mics.

Another big problem with the DMPS is that it seems to be very stable once it is programmed and tested, and my customers are very happy with it, ordering more all the time.

Maybe tell the salespeople to double their programming estimates with DMPS to account for all the dead time that the unit causes.

Personally, I feel major resentment towards Crestron about this box. I have a strong suspicion that the pain that these boxes cause is not necessary, but some manager said "it has to have a front panel" and "it has to have an uber-module to make it 'easy' to program."

The most success I've had with these is in cookie-cutter rooms, it's not so bad to configure and upload to one of these, I can usually get it done in about an hour or so.



--- In Crestron@..., "wretaudio" <wretaudio@> wrote:

Long compile times, firmware update failures, hardware failures, long boot times, long initialize times, inaccurate feedback, new device databases that make your older programs stop working..............etc., etc., etc.,

Our sales guys love this box and our installers and programmers can't make them stop selling it. I guess my real question is, how do you convince a salesman to stop selling DMPS's?

Long compile times, firmware update failures, hardware failures, long boot times, long initialize times, inaccurate feedback, new device databases that make your older programs stop working..............etc., etc., etc.,

Our sales guys love this box and our installers and programmers can't make them stop selling it. I guess my real question is, how do you convince a salesman to stop selling DMPS's?

Long compile times, firmware update failures, hardware failures, long boot times, long initialize times, inaccurate feedback, new device databases that make your older programs stop working..............etc., etc., etc.,

Our sales guys love this box and our installers and programmers can't make them stop selling it. I guess my real question is, how do you convince a salesman to stop selling DMPS's?

I don't think so... they will always be a pain to work with until they eliminate the uber-module and let us have direct hardware access like we do in a DM-MDXxX.

I'v been pretty annoyed by the database changes, especially the one that made the COM ports stop working - lost hours trying to figure out what was going on, it wasn't until I posted here that the answer was found.

The biggest problem with the DMPS is that the box has awesome features for an awesome price, so salespeople will continue to specify it. If you look at the total cost of re-creating a DMPS-300-C using a control processor and a DM8x8 it will be a lot more $$, and you would still need a 3rd party DSP for the mics.

Another big problem with the DMPS is that it seems to be very stable once it is programmed and tested, and my customers are very happy with it, ordering more all the time.

Maybe tell the salespeople to double their programming estimates with DMPS to account for all the dead time that the unit causes.

Personally, I feel major resentment towards Crestron about this box. I have a strong suspicion that the pain that these boxes cause is not necessary, but some manager said "it has to have a front panel" and "it has to have an uber-module to make it 'easy' to program."

The most success I've had with these is in cookie-cutter rooms, it's not so bad to configure and upload to one of these, I can usually get it done in about an hour or so.



--- In Crestron@..., "wretaudio" <wretaudio@> wrote:

Long compile times, firmware update failures, hardware failures, long boot times, long initialize times, inaccurate feedback, new device databases that make your older programs stop working..............etc., etc., etc.,

Our sales guys love this box and our installers and programmers can't make them stop selling it. I guess my real question is, how do you convince a salesman to stop selling DMPS's?

Long compile times, firmware update failures, hardware failures, long boot times, long initialize times, inaccurate feedback, new device databases that make your older programs stop working..............etc., etc., etc.,

Our sales guys love this box and our installers and programmers can't make them stop selling it. I guess my real question is, how do you convince a salesman to stop selling DMPS's?