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Folks having seen the recent thread on Livestock cars on Cajon whilst I don't want to hijack a thread I thought that some of you might be interested in the following. I have 25 Intermountain ATSF Livestock cars in HO for sale at $50 Australian each with current market exchange that is around $32 US plus postage let me know if you are interested in any off list and I can send you a list of the classes and numbers that I have. Rob McLear Australia.

To all: Here's a note sent to us by Steve Dunham: ----------------- A Remembrance of Charlie Slater Reflections by Steve Dunham I have known Charlie since the early 1970’s, meeting him and Joe Shine at Fullerton, waiting for a westbound San Diegan that had a breakdown and was being assisted by a GP35 on the point. We were standing near the tie-up area for all the Fullerton switchers. After being introduced, we went our ways to shoot the Alco S2/S4s parked, which back then were several in numbers. Over time we would meet up to do railfanning along the Third District and to San Bernardino yard to collect the activities of the day. Charlie was an employee of the Los Angeles Junction, known as the LAJ. His work schedule was when they called him for duty. In Charlie’s off time, he was a modeler in HO scale, and when he lived in Bellflower, he had built an HO layout in his garage. I remember going over for a run session, which was a blast. I remember Loren Martens setting up his movie camera on a flat car to take movies running along the layout. However, the camera had a problem with falling off the flat car and did not like going through tunnels, which caused derailments. Over time, Charlie was not getting too much time on the LAJ, so he started to paint models to supplement the income. He was a great modeler and kept busy with orders for services. Homer Henry was a great customer and had Charlie booked. Way back when the SHMO started up, this organization was founded mid-states, and they were recruiting for membership for Santa Fe modelers. They would hold a convention for the membership and put on clinics and set up tours of the shops, etc. With many of us westerners not able to travel as freely back then, we out here started up a group called the SFMA, Santa Fe Modelers Association, and would hold conventions and offer clinics on Santa Fe subject matter. We would also have a contest for the modelers, and it was open to all railroads. This is where Charlie and I would set up tables and categories for the attendees to enter models. We would solicit hobby shops for door prizes to hand out for the winners in the contest. This endeavor became very popular, as it gave modelers a place to show off their work. Eventually the two groups became the SFRH&MS, and the rest is history. In the meantime, Charlie, John Berry and I would take field trips to locations to shoot photos of anything Santa Fe, and one such trip took us to New Mexico. We headed east to El Paso and beyond to Carlsbad. Charlie had a field day shooting all the Ga-hoppers east of town. We spent the day shooting the depot, yard tracks and structures. Towards the end of the day, we headed north and just out of town. watching the sulfur train rolling into town. We heard a bang -- the train had split in two, breaking a knuckle. The separation was such that it was going to take time to fix, so we stepped in and offered to help the crew. We picked up a knuckle, put it in the car, and drove to the point of separation. Charlie pulled the pin and placed the new knuckle, using hand signals to the head end, got the train back to a joint, and set the gladhand connection. Then we headed back to town to clean up and meet the crew. They were very thankful for our assistance. The next stop on the trip was Flagstaff, AZ. By then it was starting to snow. This was April Fool’s Day, and we wanted to shoot what we could in the snow. As the snow became heavier, I thought it would be best to travel west for better weather conditions. Packing my scanner, we heard a train heading east with the empty coal train with the thirty-eight-hundreds on the point. They were new and rare on the system, with only ten on the roster. Charlie drove and headed to get ahead of the train. We just made it a little east of Flag town and caught the train rounding a curve. There were four GP40X on the point, and watching the train roll by, we found four more on the rear. That was all but two units short of the whole roster. Getting back to modeling, I can’t remember when Charlie started working with Martin Lofton

To all: I got this question from Jon McWhirter, and I need to pass it along to the group: --------------------- Hey Gentlemen, I am aspiring to paint an ATSF RPO in the two-tone gray paint scheme. I don't have any color pics of that paint scheme and I'm trying to get the 'right' color for the base (or 'light') gray. The B&W pics I've seen make that look almost like a medium gray rather than light, but I thought you might have either a color pic of the paint scheme or a raw recommendation as to the 'best' color for the 'light' gray. Sincerely, Jon McWhirter

To all: Lots of info from John McCall: ------------------ I have been unintentionally vague in my responses. First of all, I do not pose as an expert -- just an observer outside the loop, conditioned mainly years ago in high school by listening to my father (who WAS in the loop). I have been confusing, perhaps, two “automatic” in-cab signaling devices, as I understand them: (1) The cab signal technology and installation used between Chicago and Kansas City main lines, installed circa 1920 (IMO) and removed circa 1971 (IMO). This system - installed in both steam, diesel, and gas electric cars, when appropriate, picked up signals from the rails, through a framework of inductive pick up “pots” strung across a bar that was mounted at some location on the locomotive itself, horizontal to and just above the rails. The signal was processed through electronics contained in a visible external “box” about 1’ X 4’ X 2’, and the result displayed before the engineer on a three-aspect vertically arranged miniature searchlight signal arrangement. The inductive signal pickup bar I have observed mounted on tender frames behind trailing tender truck; on diesel power, the pickup bar I observed on forward frame of trailing truck on #1 and #10, and on F units, I never could see where AND I ASSUMED IT WAS BEHIND THE PILOT BUT DON’T KNOW. Power pickup was a mechanical connection to some locomotive axle end with a bolt-on device that reminded me of a speed recorder take-off on steroids. On steam locomotives, this was mounted on the lead axle of the pony truck. On diesel locomotives, this was mounted on the forward axle of the lead truck (in my memory). See shots of “bulldog” unit #1. On M.183,184,185,186, it was mounted just aft of the passenger vestibule steps. On steam locomotives, the box containing the processing electronics was typically mounted between sand domes or between single sand dome and steam dome, depending on locomotive. On local 2-6-2, it was likely mounted on the pilot deck, above the power drive. After cab signals were removed circa 1970 (perhaps deactivated earlier), steam locomotives involved usually displayed an extra long axle that stuck out at the front of the pony truck (as compared with the usual “flush” mounting of pony truck axles). 2. The Automatic Train Stop, so-called, displayed no aspect in the cab; when the locomotive went through a red signal, this ATS sounded an alarm, and the engineer had a short interval to “acknowledge” such, or the brakes were set in emergency. In my mind, this was a variation of the “dead man’s pedal” that the engineer had to keep depressed all the time in motion, or the brakes set. Later engineers had to only touch a control handle to acknowledge. The pick up for ATS was a “shoe” readily visible at the end of some axle of either steam, diesel, or gas electric car. These were motive power assigned to main line service on the East end of the railroad and not relevant to locomotives west of Kansas City. ------------------ Many thanks, John. I wonder if the 1970 date for cab signals in steam locos is a typo. John Thompson

To all: Here is more from Loren Joplin: --------------------- So this means you visually couldn’t see the ATC device. This is kind of important because only certain units were so equipped to run between Chicago and Kansas City where this was required until 1970. We know units 1 to 47, 300 to 314, 325 to 344 and the Alco PA,s and the FM unit 90. We know the FT units had it s well as the GP 20’s, 1100 class. as well as the GE 1600 class. We identified the location of the device on the 1100 class. Now another question comes up. Units 244 to 280 were equipped with a steam boiler for use on passenger trains. I wonder if these had ATC. I don’t recall seeing a photo of a 200 class unit between Chicago and Kansas City before 1970. Any thoughts Loren Joplin From: John Thompson <jthomp1945@...> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2025 11:40 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [cajon] Automatic Train Control Devices To all: Here's an answer from John McCall: -------------------- Generally on the lead journal of trailing truck, engineer’s side. That is for ATS shoe. Cab signal inductive pick up different animal, usually hidden behind pilot or across leading edge of trailing truck on #1 and #10 after three-axle trailing truck was added to original bulldog conversion. ------------------ Thanks, John, John Thompson On Mar 26, 2025, at 1:23 PM, John Thompson <jthomp1945@...> wrote: To all: Let's not forget Loren's question, below. To all: Loren Joplin asks again: ------------------- Yes, but where was this device on the diesel passenger units? Loren Joplin = ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2025 at 06:42:51 PM PDT Subject: Re: [cajon] Automatic Train Control Devices 3751 on trailing truck, engineer side. J. Stephen Sandifer From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Steven Crise via groups.io Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2025 2:44 PM To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: [cajon] Automatic Train Control Devices The 3751 had or still has the ATS mounted on the trailing truck under the cab. I probably have a photo of it. Steve Crise On Mar 25, 2025, at 7:51 AM, Thomas <t2sf@...> wrote: ? SF steamers with ATC had an Engine equipment box mounted externally toward the front of the locomotive I believe. Tom Thompson <AT_SF Cab Signaling With Train Control Railway Signaling Aug 1927.pdf>

To all: Loren Joplin writes: --------------- These photos clearly show the ATS (automatic train stop) I can't identify the ATC device. John McCall claims that the device is behind the front pilot on F units. I would like to verify that. Loren Joplin ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, March 28, 2025 at 08:37:15 PM PDT Subject: Re: [cajon] Automatic Train Control Devices Here are more examples of the pick-up. It is on the front of the rear trucks of the E and F units, but the back of the front truck on the DL-109, PA and Erie Built. J. Stephen Sandifer From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of JThomp1945 via groups.io Sent: Friday, March 28, 2025 1:26 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Fw: [cajon] Automatic Train Control Devices To all: Here is more from Loren Joplin: --------------------- So this means you visually couldn’t see the ATC device. This is kind of important because only certain units were so equipped to run between Chicago and Kansas City where this was required until 1970. We know units 1 to 47, 300 to 314, 325 to 344 and the Alco PA,s and the FM unit 90. We know the FT units had it s well as the GP 20’s, 1100 class. as well as the GE 1600 class. We identified the location of the device on the 1100 class. Now another question comes up. Units 244 to 280 were equipped with a steam boiler for use on passenger trains. I wonder if these had ATC. I don’t recall seeing a photo of a 200 class unit between Chicago and Kansas City before 1970. Any thoughts Loren Joplin From: John Thompson <jthomp1945@...> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2025 11:40 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [cajon] Automatic Train Control Devices To all: Here's an answer from John McCall: -------------------- Generally on the lead journal of trailing truck, engineer’s side. That is for ATS shoe. Cab signal inductive pick up different animal, usually hidden behind pilot or across leading edge of trailing truck on #1 and #10 after three-axle trailing truck was added to original bulldog conversion. ------------------ Thanks, John, John Thompson On Mar 26, 2025, at 1:23 PM, John Thompson <jthomp1945@...> wrote: To all: Let's not forget Loren's question, below. To all: Loren Joplin asks again: ------------------- Yes, but where was this device on the diesel passenger units? Loren Joplin = ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2025 at 06:42:51 PM PDT Subject: Re: [cajon] Automatic Train Control Devices 3751 on trailing truck, engineer side. J. Stephen Sandifer From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Steven Crise via groups.io Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2025 2:44 PM To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: [cajon] Automatic Train Control Devices The 3751 had or still has the ATS mounted on the trailing truck under the cab. I probably have a photo of it. Steve Crise On Mar 25, 2025, at 7:51 AM, Thomas <t2sf@...> wrote: ? SF steamers with ATC had an Engine equipment box mounted externally toward the front of the locomotive I believe. Tom Thompson <AT_SF Cab Signaling With Train Control Railway Signaling Aug 1927.pdf>

To all: From Cindi Andersen: ---------------- Hello, Mr. Thompson, Wow! That 37LABC (also being the first engine of its F7 Class) was a seriously unlucky locomotive set... Please thank Mr. Joplin for me; the data and photos are really something - Thank you again, Cindi Andersen

To all: From Loren Joplin (but which photo?): -------------------- This photo of Automatic Train Stop (ATS) not Automatic train control. This was used between Kansas City and Chicago. Question is, where is this device located on all F and E units. Loren Joplin From: John Thompson <jthomp1945@...> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2025 7:44 PM Subject: Fw: [cajon] Automatic Train Control Devices See photo. ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2025 at 06:32:51 PM PDT Subject: Re: [cajon] Automatic Train Control Devices J. Stephen Sandifer From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of JThomp1945 via groups.io Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2025 4:45 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [cajon] Automatic Train Control Devices To all: Here's some very helpful info from John McCall: -------------------- Steam locomotives with four-wheel trailing trucks had the ATS shoe mounted on the lead axle journal, engineer’s side. Small actuator box usually located directly above, under the cab. I “think” steam locomotives with two wheel trailers had the ATS shoe on that single journal - engineer’s side. Doodlebugs that had them (applied when running on main line ) generally had them on trailing axle, lead truck, engineer’s side. Folks here seem in some cases to be confusing the ATS system-wide installation on main lines after WW2 to allow locomotives equipped to meet ICC regs restricting speeds over 79 mph for locos without such with the cab signal system used Chicago-Kansas City between circa 1920 and 1970. These didn’t have ATS shoes involved; they had an inductive pick-up bar horizontally mounted full width of rails behind trailing truck of tender with electronics in a box usually top of locomotive boiler between sand domes or between single sand dome and steam dome. Such also had a geared power take-off mount ed on the engineer’s side of the lead (pony) truck. After such removed, pony truck axle stuck out naked. For example, GP20, after concentration on east end of railroad, ALL had cab signals, with the electronics box mounted just in front of cab (below windshield level) on engineer’s side. --------------- Many thanks, John, John Thompson On Mar 26, 2025, at 1:23 PM, John Thompson <jthomp1945@...> wrote: To all: Let's not forget Loren's question, below. To all: Loren Joplin asks again: ------------------- Yes, but where was this device on the diesel passenger units? Loren Joplin

To all:Here's a message from Bob Chaparro from 2021, with links to a 4-part clinic on everything about Helium cars on the Santa Fe: -----------------Re: Helium Operations on the Santa Fe - Helium Cars and Videos Bob Chaparro 05/30/21 #25029 Here they are... The Helium Industry on the Santa Fe Railway - Tank Cars and Videos This is a repost from today on the Real Steam Era Freight Car Discussion Group. Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA ++++ Recently Frank Schultz sent the following informational links about the helium industry. The videos are very nicely done and well worth your time. The link to Jay’s handout will be found at the end of the Part 4 video. Jay’s handout has a roster, equipment usage timeline and a drawing for the 1942 U.S.N.X Helium tank car. The machine shop tour is a bonus. Hard copies of Jay’s research material including drawings are at the Springer Archives in Temple, Texas. Randy Danniel ++ "FEATURED VIDEOS – By Renaissance Man, Jay Miller. Jay continues his outstanding professional-quality productions based on extremely well-researched history with many rare photos, his remarkable family, the AT&SF and much more. All of these are fascinating and include a lot that I didn’t know about Helium. (I’ve passed the Helium Museum in Amarillo many times, but never went in as I thought all it had was a bunch of antique Helium atoms floating-around or mounted on display boards.): Helium Operations on the Santa Fe Railway Part 1 of 4 – Natural Gas to Airships https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9yepP-44oQ&t=3s Helium Operations on the Santa Fe Railway Part 2 of 4 – Helium Plants https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KheJtrdDgks&t=3s Helium Operations on the Santa Fe Railway Part 3 of 4 – The Helium Tank Cars https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mgPkgQgyWA Helium Operations on the Santa Fe Railway Part 4 of 4 – Modeling the Helium Tank Cars (and more) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYPhK90m-bs Railroad Machine Shop Tour & History of Miller Machine Works & Miller Brothers: 1885 to the Present https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA2F3zOJvjg&t=155s

To all: Here's an answer from John McCall: -------------------- Generally on the lead journal of trailing truck, engineer’s side. That is for ATS shoe. Cab signal inductive pick up different animal, usually hidden behind pilot or across leading edge of trailing truck on #1 and #10 after three-axle trailing truck was added to original bulldog conversion. ------------------ Thanks, John, John Thompson

To all: Let's not forget Loren's question, below. To all: Loren Joplin asks again: ------------------- Yes, but where was this device on the diesel passenger units? Loren Joplin = ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2025 at 06:42:51 PM PDT Subject: Re: [cajon] Automatic Train Control Devices 3751 on trailing truck, engineer side. J. Stephen Sandifer From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Steven Crise via groups.io Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2025 2:44 PM To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: [cajon] Automatic Train Control Devices The 3751 had or still has the ATS mounted on the trailing truck under the cab. I probably have a photo of it. Steve Crise On Mar 25, 2025, at 7:51 AM, Thomas <t2sf@...> wrote: ? SF steamers with ATC had an Engine equipment box mounted externally toward the front of the locomotive I believe. Tom Thompson <AT_SF Cab Signaling With Train Control Railway Signaling Aug 1927.pdf>

To all: Loren Joplin asks again: ------------------- Yes, but where was this device on the diesel passenger units? Loren Joplin = ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2025 at 06:42:51 PM PDT Subject: Re: [cajon] Automatic Train Control Devices 3751 on trailing truck, engineer side. J. Stephen Sandifer From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Steven Crise via groups.io Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2025 2:44 PM To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: [cajon] Automatic Train Control Devices The 3751 had or still has the ATS mounted on the trailing truck under the cab. I probably have a photo of it. Steve Crise On Mar 25, 2025, at 7:51 AM, Thomas <t2sf@...> wrote: ? SF steamers with ATC had an Engine equipment box mounted externally toward the front of the locomotive I believe. Tom Thompson <AT_SF Cab Signaling With Train Control Railway Signaling Aug 1927.pdf>

To all: Here's a note from Robert Rogers: ----------------- 25 March 2025 @ 17:25 PDT Dear John, Yes, I remember some photos have the ATS shoe mounted over the front truck/wheel, to the side (you do have to LOOK for the ATS shoe, since it is as black as the rest of a steam locomotive). I would think the trailing truck had less wire between the shoe and cab that way, but that forward location may have been the initial way to mount the shoe. I will research the 4-8-4 photo books and get back to you. Regards, Robert ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Thomas <t2sf@...> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2025 at 05:50:36 AM PDT Subject: Re: [cajon] Automatic Train Control Devices SF steamers with ATC had an Engine equipment box mounted externally toward the front of the locomotive I believe. Tom Thompson