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Emergency power
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Emergency power from the C-Car Since the C-CAR has a lot of batteries and provides a great plugin source of power for your home during a blackout, you might be interest in another that I moderate: The group covers all topics on emergency power, solar, EV's, whole house batteries etc.? .? There was a lot of discussion after the recent power outages in various parts of teh county over recent months.? Otherwise only about an email every few weeks maybe. Bob, WB4APR Author |
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I've actually thought of doing this. Maybe incorporate into the charging / home solar system. On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 1:54 PM Robert Bruninga <bruninga@...> wrote:
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Hi Barton and All, I've been doing it 29 yrs now on my light EVs , all 48vdc.? Just need to buy and inverter and wire it in at the voltage you use. I use it for blackouts, hurricanes, worksites and to power events. In say a 48vdc contactor one you'd want a 24vdc inverter so it works with EV power off.? Others need a 48-72vdc inverter. Of if one has a solar system just use it as extra storage at 48vdc, a common voltage for it and use the home inverter to make the AC. Jerry Dycus
On Monday, March 22, 2021, 02:46:39 PM PDT, Barton Fisher <bartonfisher77@...> wrote:
I've actually thought of doing this. Maybe incorporate into the charging / home solar system. On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 1:54 PM Robert Bruninga <bruninga@...> wrote:
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On 3/22/21 5:46 PM, Barton Fisher wrote:
I've actually thought of doing this. Maybe incorporate into the charging / home solar system.I have a 10kVA auto start/transfer propane whole house generator and 2 months' worth of propane. i installed the system which cost $5,000. Seems a lot more easy and sensible than wasting all that money on marginally functional solar. Solar is irrelevant for me anyway because my house is fully under a canopy of trees in the forest. John |
On Mar 22, 2021, at 9:13 PM, NeonJohn <jgd@...> wrote:I find your comment interesting, but the only part that makes sense is the part where solar make little sense for you because of tree cover. In that case, the generator is the better choice.On 3/22/21 5:46 PM, Barton Fisher wrote:I have a 10kVA auto start/transfer propane whole house generator and 2 months' worth of propane. i installed the system which cost $5,000. Seems a lot more easy and sensible than wasting all that money on marginally functional solar. Solar is irrelevant for me anyway because my house is fully under a canopy of trees in the forest. For most, or at least many, people, though, it would make much more sense to put that $5,000 towards a solar system with battery backup, providing much of the benefit of your generator, but also with the added benefit of cost savings every month. Sure, it makes more sense in Phoenix than in Halifax, but solar seems like a better choice to me in most cases. Tom |
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And, need I remind you all, that solar, even with embedded costs, is better for healing the climate emergency (and pandemic) we are all suffering through, than the burning of fossil fuels?? Isn't that why the C-Cars first came into existence?? Or why we are all preserving and/or driving our EV's? Life is made up of making the right decision when you come to that fork in the road, and we need to be making the correct ones for the sake of our ecological crisis and our whole civilization. Bob A in VT On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 10:40 PM Tom Rymes <tom@...> wrote:
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Hi John, You may want to find a solar plan/farm/large array, where you can offtake your necessary load, and use it to charge repurposed Chevy Volt batteries and build your own powerwall, assuming you are on the grid.? Congratulations for honoring those carbon-sequestering forest lands.? We are letting parts of our ~ 20 A. reforest from pastures at present. Be well, ???? Bob On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 9:13 PM NeonJohn <jgd@...> wrote:
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On 3/22/21 10:40 PM, Tom Rymes wrote:
let's do an analysis for using a C-car battery for emergency power. There are 220 amp-hours * 50 volts (6.25 volts * 8) = 11k kWh.On Mar 22, 2021, at 9:13 PM, NeonJohn <jgd@...> wrote:I find your comment interesting, but the only part that makes sense is the part where solar make little sense for you because of tree cover. In that case, the generator is the better choice.On 3/22/21 5:46 PM, Barton Fisher wrote:I have a 10kVA auto start/transfer propane whole house generator and 2 months' worth of propane. i installed the system which cost $5,000. Seems a lot more easy and sensible than wasting all that money on marginally functional solar. Solar is irrelevant for me anyway because my house is fully under a canopy of trees in the forest. Before I installed the generator, I had a 1500 watt 48 volt UPS. To use nuclear plant terms, I divided my house into Vital Bus (refrigeration, one CFL in each room and computer equipment) and Balance of Plant, unimportant things that lost power when the utility failed. I used 220 AH Trojan 6 volt wet cells. The load on the UPS with the refrigeration running (modern refrigeration is designed to run about 90% of the time as an energy saving measure), a CFL on only in the occupied rooms and my computer equipment totaled about 750 watts. So I had 11 kwh / 0.750 watts = about 15 hours of emergency power. I researched solar on NREL, contemplating cutting the trees shading my cabin. At my latitude (SE TN) It would have taken over $20,000 in solar panels to replace the power used when the sun didn't shine each day in the summer-time. In the winter, solar would have been hopeless, as we're under almost constant overcast. With this setup I could NOT run my AC, a vital accessory in Green Cove. This area is knows as America's Little Rain Forest. The humidity remains near 100% most of the summer and the temperature averages around 85 degrees in the daytime but has reached 100 deg. AC is simply not an option. To charge the batteries as fast as possible, I bought a cheap 10kVA generator and redesigned it with a PM field and rewound the stator to produce 60 volts peak at 100 amps. My very best friend (who died last Thanksgiving) owned Jerry's Electric Motor Service shop and I had the run of the place. I controlled output voltage by varying the engine speed using a medium sized RC model servo and a board that I designed and programmed. It did a full 3 stage charge profile. Unlike the crap batteries places like Sam's sells and many C-car owners use because of the price, the Trojans would reach approximately 80% of full charge while still in the bulk phase (100 amp charge rate). They would reach the float stage in about 2.5 hours. In contrast, the Sam's and similar ilk consumer batteries fell out of bulk (constant current) and moved to absorption ( constant voltage) at about 40% of full charge. This because of the high internal resistance. As soon as I could afford them, I added a second string of Trojans in parallel with the first set to extend my capacity beyond 24 hours. The second revision of my board measured battery voltage and auto-cranked the charger when the batteries were about 80% depleted. Since the primary power feed to our village is 25 miles long up a rough mountain right of way, outages are typically multi-day affairs. After 2 summers with no AC during outages, I bought the 10kVA auto-start whole house generator. When the power goes out, the generator computer waits 10 seconds to make sure it's an outage and not a switching transient, cranks the engine, lets it warm for 5 second and throws the transfer switch. The old system still exists, the Trojans replaced with a 600 AH 48 volt fork lift battery. It keeps the vital bus up during the 15 second transfer and keeps the bus up if the generator fails to start, something that happened once when the solenoid choke stuck shut. My "cordless battery charger" cost me about a $grand and the Generac about $5k, another $5k had I not done the installation. So for about $6k plus the cost of the batteries, I have a 100% available, highly reliable emergency power system that will carry me up to 2 months of the power being down. In the infamous Blizzard of '93, 2.5 ft of snow fell overnight in April. This is a trout fishing destination and the season was in full swing. The all-electric motel (about 75 rooms) was sold out. The power was off for 9 days and the sole road closed for 12 while they removed over 200 trees from across the access road. The motel owner was too cheap to provide alternative heat such as propane so everyone froze. The people who built the motel built a large apartment with a fireplace to live in. Several men went out and (illegally) cut trees from Forest Service land and everyone from the motel crowded into that one room with the fireplace. Meanwhile everything here was normal. I allowed people to come here a few at a time to warm up and shower if desired. A National Guard Helo dropped in a couple of pallets of MREs, mostly eaten cold because the packaged chemical warmer was designed for a desert environment. I'm not a prepper but I keep a month's supply of food on hand for the two of us. Several times I cooked them hot stew, chili and so on, on an electric range. I would have been in a similarly excellent position had I been in Texas recently. Texas is too independent to wheel power (wheeling is moving excess capacity to areas undergoing a shortfall) through the state so only two tiny interties (about 1GVA) exist, one on either side of the state. This blizzard demonstrated yet again the utter folly of relying on so-called "renewables" for base load. Texas almost lost the state grid about 15 years ago when the wind suddenly stopped blowing for a few hours. They saved the state only by virtue of having maintained many of their gas turbines and gas fired steam plants in cold standby (ready to start in seconds to hours) until the wind started blowing again. Many of those plants have since been demolished which is why the blizzard shut down the state. John |
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John,
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What you are describing is your personal needs and situation, which are clearly quite unusual, and also not suited to a solution using solar. From that one data point, you then extrapolate to “solar doesn’t make sense for anyone”. That’s some faulty logic. As for the motel, relying exclusively on electric heat with no backup generator in a rural village with known power problems is clearly stupid. Do keep in mind that most of us aren’t powering motels with electric heat, so that sort of calculation won’t be relevant. As for the recent problems in Texas, it has been clearly shown that renewables were not the cause, despite a concerted effort to pin the blame there. Renewables aren’t perfect, they aren’t the answer to every problem or use case, but the technology is rapidly evolving and improving, and it makes sense for many people, even if not for you. Tom On Mar 23, 2021, at 12:22 AM, NeonJohn <jgd@...> wrote: |
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Hi John and All, Things have changed.? ? Prices for solar, used EV batteries are cheaper than Trojans/kwh and while Trojans are rated that, getting even 9kwh would be hard and more not good for them. As for your situation which is also mine in an old oak forest I originally bought to hide from the summer sun and it did do that fairly well, it limited from using either solar or ?wind effectively. The solution in your area is an RE fueled generator, preferably a water cooled/marine? diesel, an Onan would work used as CHP.? ? Fuel can be 5 micron filtered veg oil or B100.? I do completely agree on a? DC generator to directly fast charge the batteries which greatly cuts run time, fuel? and doesn't make too much heat. The other part is load reduction as no reason to use much power for fridge, freezer by switching to 2 chest freezers, one at 38F using 20% of normal ones.? I bought them at Lowes for just $129 each. And mine only run 20% of the time in the Florida summer. A/C and heating are the only real loads. For most that can get solar it is the way to go with battery and CHP.? Though in the north wind may be better or both. Your prices are rather high as one can buy panels, inverter for $600/kw well shopped at Raybro, etc and do it themselves or hire an electrician to do what people can't is under $1/wt plus battery. New inverters now can control lithium battery voltage limits, solar at very low prices, $.20/wt.?? Buying a full lithium used EV battery pack is cheaper and I prefer the Volt as so far doesn't require a BMS, just upper and lower voltage limits .? I use Deka/East Penn instead of Trojans. Just as good but 40% less well shopped.? ?Remember battery prices argue for 40% off list or no deal as they get 60% off usually.. Though when you bought they they were cheaper before they jacked the price. With such a system sized to demand one doesn't need to even hook up to the grid other than overbuild and sell power in places that works. As a sailor I also have a full set of 12vdc pots, pans, laptop, TV , blanket,? internet, fridge/freezer and run the A/C off the 2kw pure sine inverter and my 12vdc lead battery system made up of recycled batteries from an EV I supplied Volt modules to, keeping the good ones. Here in Tampa just the 12vdc electric blanket and clothes? heating needs. And my EVs recharge them or I throw up some solar panels in one of the few spots the sun gets through at that time of the yr as it moves a lot. And I have a ethanol fueled? 160cc Honda gocart motor hotrodded to 8kwh as a backup. And as a REx for my EVs for unlimited range.? So lots of cost effective solutions without the need for FFs and EVs should be part of the system. Jerry Dycus
On Monday, March 22, 2021, 09:22:12 PM PDT, NeonJohn <jgd@...> wrote:
On 3/22/21 10:40 PM, Tom Rymes wrote: > > >> On Mar 22, 2021, at 9:13 PM, NeonJohn <jgd@...> wrote: >> >>> On 3/22/21 5:46 PM, Barton Fisher wrote: >>> I've actually thought of doing this. Maybe incorporate into the charging / home solar system. >> >> I have a 10kVA auto start/transfer propane whole house generator and 2 months' worth of propane.? i installed the system which cost $5,000. Seems a lot more easy and sensible than wasting all that money on marginally functional solar.? Solar is irrelevant for me anyway because my house is fully under a canopy of trees in the forest. >> > > I find your comment interesting, but the only part that makes sense is the part where solar make little sense for you because of tree cover. In that case, the generator is the better choice. > > For most, or at least many, people, though, it would make much more sense to put that $5,000 towards a solar system with battery backup, providing much of the benefit of your generator, but also with the added benefit of cost savings every month. Sure, it makes more sense in Phoenix than in Halifax, but solar seems like a better choice to me in most cases. let's do an analysis for using a C-car battery for emergency power. There are 220 amp-hours * 50 volts (6.25 volts * 8) = 11k kWh. Before I installed the generator, I had a 1500 watt 48 volt UPS.? To use nuclear plant terms, I divided my house into Vital Bus (refrigeration, one CFL in each room and computer equipment) and Balance of Plant, unimportant things that lost power when the utility failed.? I used 220 AH Trojan 6 volt wet cells. The load on the UPS with the refrigeration running (modern refrigeration is designed to run about 90% of the time as an energy saving measure), a CFL on only in the occupied rooms and my computer equipment totaled about 750 watts.? So I had 11 kwh / 0.750 watts = about 15 hours of emergency power. I researched solar on NREL, contemplating cutting the trees shading my cabin.? At my latitude (SE TN) It would have taken over $20,000 in solar panels to replace the power used when the sun didn't shine each day in the summer-time.? In the winter, solar would have been hopeless, as we're under almost constant overcast. With this setup I could NOT run my AC, a vital accessory in Green Cove. ? This area is knows as America's Little Rain Forest.? The humidity remains near 100% most of the summer and the temperature averages around 85 degrees in the daytime but has reached 100 deg.? AC is simply not an option. To charge the batteries as fast as possible, I bought a cheap 10kVA generator and redesigned it with a PM field and rewound the stator to produce 60 volts peak at 100 amps.? My very best friend (who died last Thanksgiving) owned Jerry's Electric Motor Service shop and I had the run of the place. I controlled output voltage by varying the engine speed using a medium sized RC model servo and a board that I designed and programmed.? It did a full 3 stage charge profile. Unlike the crap batteries places like Sam's sells and many C-car owners use because of the price, the Trojans would reach approximately 80% of full charge while still in the bulk phase (100 amp charge rate).? They would reach the float stage in about 2.5 hours.? In contrast, the Sam's and similar ilk consumer batteries fell out of bulk (constant current) and moved to absorption ( constant voltage) at about 40% of full charge. ? This because of the high internal resistance. As soon as I could afford them, I added a second string of Trojans in parallel with the first set to extend my capacity beyond 24 hours. The second revision of my board measured battery voltage and auto-cranked the charger when the batteries were about 80% depleted. Since the primary power feed to our village is 25 miles long up a rough mountain right of way, outages are typically multi-day affairs.? After 2 summers with no AC during outages, I bought the 10kVA auto-start whole house generator.? When the power goes out, the generator computer waits 10 seconds to make sure it's an outage and not a switching transient, cranks the engine, lets it warm for 5 second and throws the transfer switch. The old system still exists, the Trojans replaced with a 600 AH 48 volt fork lift battery.? It keeps the vital bus up during the 15 second transfer and keeps the bus up if the generator fails to start, something that happened once when the solenoid choke stuck shut. My "cordless battery charger" cost me about a $grand and the Generac about $5k, another $5k had I not done the installation.? So for about $6k plus the cost of the batteries, I have a 100% available, highly reliable emergency power system that will carry me up to 2 months of the power being down. In the infamous Blizzard of '93, 2.5 ft of snow fell overnight in April. ? This is a trout fishing destination and the season was in full swing. ? The all-electric motel (about 75 rooms) was sold out.? The power was off for 9 days? and the sole road closed for 12 while they removed over 200 trees from across the access road. The motel owner was too cheap to provide alternative heat such as propane so everyone froze.? The people who built the motel built a large apartment with a fireplace to live in.? Several men went out and (illegally) cut trees from Forest Service land and everyone from the motel crowded into that one room with the fireplace.? Meanwhile everything here was normal.? I allowed people to come here a few at a time to warm up and shower if desired. A National Guard Helo dropped in a couple of pallets of MREs, mostly eaten cold because the packaged chemical warmer was designed for a desert environment.? I'm not a prepper but I keep a month's supply of food on hand for the two of us.? Several times I cooked them hot stew, chili and so on, on an electric range. I would have been in a similarly excellent position had I been in Texas recently.? Texas is too independent to wheel power (wheeling is moving excess capacity to areas undergoing a shortfall) through the state so only two tiny interties (about 1GVA) exist, one on either side of the state.? This blizzard demonstrated yet again the utter folly of relying on so-called "renewables" for base load.? Texas almost lost the state grid about 15 years ago when the wind suddenly stopped blowing for a few hours.? They saved the state only by virtue of having maintained many of their gas turbines and gas fired steam plants in cold standby (ready to start in seconds to hours) until the wind started blowing again.? Many of those plants have since been demolished which is why the blizzard shut down the state. John |
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One thing I was surprised to learn about trees and solar is the fact (not in your FLorida) but at mid latitudes that having a tree shading the south also shades winter heat gain which is significant (maybe 40% of your heating needs).? Be sure to trim all low branches so you dont?block low winter sun on the house walls. Further shade the house roof with a tree on the west is best.? That way you still get full shade on th roof?but dont block winter sun on the south. A deciduous?tree without any leaves stil blocks 40% of solar.? Both heat and eclectic?if you have solar panels behind them.? The western tree is estimated to be 6 times more advantage (solar heat gain wise) than a southern tree. FInally just a single solar panel is worth 8 fully mature trees with respect to carbon reduction and so a full home solar array is worth maybe 3 acres of trees.? Plus giving one energy independence for life.? So it is worth cutting down a few trees if that can get you 6 hours of full sun, but if you live in a forest there are just too many to cut down to get 6 hours... oh well...? Bob Authour? On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 6:46 AM jerry freedomev via <freedomev=[email protected]> wrote:
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My CitiCar is charged by the sun. I do have a desire to hook up an inverter to the CitiCar as an additional source of backup power. I also wrote some software that pings the solar charge controller and logs the information over time (battery temperature, kwh generated/consumed, battery state, etc.), so you'll see some of that in some of the videos. On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 11:46 AM Robert Bruninga <bruninga@...> wrote:
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NeonJohn
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