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Electric brakes?


 

Would Electric trailer brakes be suitable? for use on citi citicar??

dave@...


 

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I¡¯d say that, if it has the word ¡°trailer¡± in front of it, it¡¯s a bad idea. Trailer brakes, trailer tires, etc.

Can they be made to work? Sure? Should they? No, if for no other reason than the fact that you¡¯d lose brakes if something went wrong electrically (short, fuse, whatever).

Rather than trying to find a different braking system, send the original bits off for a proper rebuild and resleeve with brass, etc. I¡¯d recommend White Post Restorations in Virginia.

Tom

On Dec 27, 2020, at 10:37 AM, david404k@... wrote:

?Would Electric trailer brakes be suitable? for use on citi citicar??

dave@...


 

Welcome

Since 1940, WPR has been a renowned leader in the world of automobile restoration. During our 75 years of operation, our name has become synonymous with exquisite attention to detail and unsurpassed workmanship. WPR does not specialize in any particular make or model, but rather in exceeding our client¡¯s expectations. With over 1000 cars restored since our inception ¨C from Rolls Royce to Ford and everything in between ¨C we are confident in our ability to provide you with an experience and exceptionally restored automobile that you will treasure.
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Whether you are interested in our automobile restoration or brake sleeving and rebuilding services, we appreciate the opportunity to serve you and look forward to adding you to our extensive list of satisfied clientele.
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No they won't work,? electric brakes are self energizing and won't modulate like hydraulic brakes would?



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-------- Original message --------
From: david404k@...
Date: 12/27/20 8:24 AM (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [c-car] Electric brakes?

Would Electric trailer brakes be suitable? for use on citi citicar??

dave@...


 

?I saw a tv show where they were using Electric brakes on vintage car restorations where? brake parts were not available or reliable.

Initially I thought using Electric brakes would be a simple solution for upgrading decades old brakes on the CitiCar.

The citicar's got trailer sized wheels so why not use trailer brakes?

?Obviously its not sounding like such a good idea.?

?I'm still curious.

Does proportional control of the electric brake duplicate or have characteristics of the standard hydraulic brakes?

D.

On Sun, Dec 27, 2020, 12:58 PM mrspeed700 via <mrspeed700=[email protected]> wrote:
No they won't work,? electric brakes are self energizing and won't modulate like hydraulic brakes would?



Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
Date: 12/27/20 8:24 AM (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [c-car] Electric brakes?

Would Electric trailer brakes be suitable? for use on citi citicar??

dave@...


 

On 12/27/20 12:58 PM, mrspeed700 via groups.io wrote:
No they won't work,? electric brakes are self energizing and won't modulate like hydraulic brakes would
Yes they will. A drum trailer brake consists of a backing plate, two shoes and a cam attached to an arm with an electromagnet on the end. The electromagnet is positioned to touch a smooth part of the side of the drum.

When current is applied to the magnet, it is attracted to the moving drum. The drum movement causes the arm to slide on the drum, the cam rotates and the brakes begin to be applied.

The more current applied, the stronger the drag and thus more braking. If full 12 volts is applied, most trailer brakes (unless the trailer is overloaded) can skid the wheels.

Old fashioned brake controllers consisted of a cylinder which was spliced into the vehicle's hydraulic brake plumbing. This cylinder pushed against a spring. Also attached to the cylinder was an arm that swept over a wirewound resistor element. The harder the brakes were applied, the further the arm was moved and more current was applied to the trailer brakes.

Modern controllers are electronic and contain an accelerometer.

After installation, the vehicle is parked on a level surface. A little lever or knob on the side is used to zero the accelerometer so that it detects no change in motion due to gravity. The controller is typically mounted at a 45 deg upward angle so the driver can see the display and can move the manual application lever to apply braking without pressing the brake pedal.

in operation, when the vehicle brakes are applied, the accelerometer detects the deceleration and applies current to the brakes. The embedded processor contains algorithms to compensate for braking on a hill. It contains a separate algorithm to relax the trailer brakes when the vehicle starts to move from a stop downhill. On a downhill, the accelerometer would detect apparent braking and continuously apply the trailer brakes, preventing the tow vehicle from moving, absent the hill compensation algorithm.

That said, designing a controller to operate electric brakes as the primary brakes would be a very complex project, one that I would not want to take on. Only one aspect is providing proportional pedal resistance as the brakes area applied just like hydraulic brakes. Absent proportional resistance, as you apply the brakes, the g force will push your leg forward, applying more braking in a positive feedback loop, locking up the wheels and maybe even standing the car on its nose, depending on where the batteries are located.

When I had to sell my car, I had identified an automotive axle that would replace the stock one with much better brakes. Faded memory can't recall the car model. Someone else had identified an automotive brake assembly which could be bolted to the existing axle. Pinto lingers in my memory but I'm not sure.

Yet a third option is to buy a hotrodder's universal brake assembly from some place like Scummit and make or have made an adapter plate. That would probably be the overall simplest option.

John


 

On 12/27/20 10:57 AM, Tom Rymes wrote:
I?€?d say that, if it has the word ?€?trailer?€? in front of it, it?€?s a bad idea. Trailer brakes, trailer tires, etc.
Can they be made to work? Sure? Should they? No, if for no other reason than the fact that you?€?d lose brakes if something went wrong electrically (short, fuse, whatever).
Just like hydraulic brakes will fail if a line corrodes enough to leak. Had that happen to me in my '75 Datsun 280Z at about the 300,000 mile mark. Fortunately all modern cars have dual circuit brakes so only 2 wheels failed. The other two continued to work.

If I designed an electric brake system, I'd use the same dual redundant system as hydraulic systems. And I'd store enough energy within the controller to achieve at least a couple of stops if a fuse blew. Hopefully the engineer would use a self-resetting PolyFuse. Airbomb detonators do the same thing. I won't touch a modern car's yellow wiring (code for air bomb wiring) until the battery has been disconnected for at least a half hour.

Details like these are what separate engineers from great engineers. And they are what would make an electronic so complex to design and test on all 4 corners of possible failure.

John


 

On 12/27/20 6:09 PM, David Schwartz wrote:

Does proportional control of the electric brake duplicate or have characteristics of the standard hydraulic brakes?
Yes.

John


 

Pretty good information regarding my question about electric brakes.?
I'll hold off on the electric brakes and continue working on the? hydraulic ones that came with the car.
Thanks for the helpful information.
D.