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Hello,
I have a working 1975 citi car that hasn't been used for a few years because I didn't want to buy the wrong batteries and I thought they wouldn't last long due to limited use.? Now that gas it so high I am thinking maybe now is the time.? I have read multiple posts over the last few years about battery options different than the normal golf cart 6v batteries and the required chargers and battery managers.
IF you have current estimates for either tires or a battery set please reply so I can consider putting this car into service again.
thanks,
John
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I bought new 6v golf car batteries three years ago at Sam’s Club for about $85 each. A friend told me to replace two of them with 8v batteries. I don’t know about tires but I think you can get tires and wheels already assembled at Walmart for about the same price as tires alone. If you want to get more miles out of it you should replace the unit that controls the speed with a much newer type.
If you want to sell it I may be into.
Thanks?
On Friday, June 17, 2022, 9:27 PM, john Ledermann <thelederfam@...> wrote: Hello,
I have a working 1975 citi car that hasn't been used for a few years because I didn't want to buy the wrong batteries and I thought they wouldn't last long due to limited use.? Now that gas it so high I am thinking maybe now is the time.? I have read multiple posts over the last few years about battery options different than the normal golf cart 6v batteries and the required chargers and battery managers.
IF you have current estimates for either tires or a battery set please reply so I can consider putting this car into service again.
thanks,
John
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I would advise against fitting trailer tires, as they ride like they are made of stone, and are terrible in terms of steering and directional stability.
Coker sells a set of 125R12 Michelin radials that a miles ahead, though certainly not the cheapest option.
Tom
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On Jun 17, 2022, at 10:33 PM, Lonnie Caldwell via groups.io <lon.caldwell@...> wrote:
?
I bought new 6v golf car batteries three years ago at Sam’s Club for about $85 each. A friend told me to replace two of them with 8v batteries. I don’t know about tires but I think you can get tires and wheels already assembled at Walmart for about the same price as tires alone. If you want to get more miles out of it you should replace the unit that controls the speed with a much newer type.
If you want to sell it I may be into.
Thanks? Lonnie On Friday, June 17, 2022, 9:27 PM, john Ledermann <thelederfam@...> wrote: Hello,
I have a working 1975 citi car that hasn't been used for a few years because I didn't want to buy the wrong batteries and I thought they wouldn't last long due to limited use.? Now that gas it so high I am thinking maybe now is the time.? I have read multiple posts over the last few years about battery options different than the normal golf cart 6v batteries and the required chargers and battery managers.
IF you have current estimates for either tires or a battery set please reply so I can consider putting this car into service again.
thanks,
John
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The 6 volt lead acid batteries that I used in the 74 CITICAR WORKED fine. . John Iozza from Boston. 978 930 7435
On Jun 17, 2022 9:54 PM, Tom Rymes <tom@...> wrote: I would advise against fitting trailer tires, as they ride like they are made of stone, and are terrible in terms of steering and directional stability.
Coker sells a set of 125R12 Michelin radials that a miles ahead, though certainly not the cheapest option.
Tom On Jun 17, 2022, at 10:33 PM, Lonnie Caldwell via groups.io <lon.caldwell@...> wrote:
?
I bought new 6v golf car batteries three years ago at Sam’s Club for about $85 each. A friend told me to replace two of them with 8v batteries. I don’t know about tires but I think you can get tires and wheels already assembled at Walmart for about the same price as tires alone. If you want to get more miles out of it you should replace the unit that controls the speed with a much newer type.
If you want to sell it I may be into.
Thanks? Lonnie On Friday, June 17, 2022, 9:27 PM, john Ledermann <thelederfam@...> wrote: Hello,
I have a working 1975 citi car that hasn't been used for a few years because I didn't want to buy the wrong batteries and I thought they wouldn't last long due to limited use.? Now that gas it so high I am thinking maybe now is the time.? I have read multiple posts over the last few years about battery options different than the normal golf cart 6v batteries and the required chargers and battery managers.
IF you have current estimates for either tires or a battery set please reply so I can consider putting this car into service again.
thanks,
John
|
If you wanted to use lithium batteries, my recommendation would be to use Chevy Volt modules and upgrade to a more modern speed controller. If you care more about driveability than originality, this is the best option. Lead acid and the original speed controller are less comfortable and the batteries won't last as long.
The biggest issue is you'd need to get a BMS and a new charger, and redo some wiring. This is a bit of a learning curve, but not that bad.
Something like the above would be perfect.?
Total cost would probably be around $1-3k depending on how fancy you want your speed controller and how much range you wanted.
- Jacob
Hello,
I have a working 1975 citi car that hasn't been used for a few years because I didn't want to buy the wrong batteries and I thought they wouldn't last long due to limited use.? Now that gas it so high I am thinking maybe now is the time.? I have read multiple posts over the last few years about battery options different than the normal golf cart 6v batteries and the required chargers and battery managers.
IF you have current estimates for either tires or a battery set please reply so I can consider putting this car into service again.
thanks,
John
|
On 6/17/22 22:33, Lonnie Caldwell via groups.io wrote: I bought new 6v golf car batteries three years ago at Sam’s Club for
about $85 each. A friend told me to replace two of them with 8v batteries. I don’t know about tires but I think you can get tires and
wheels already assembled at Walmart for about the same price as
tires alone. If you want to get more miles out of it you should
replace the unit that controls the speed with a much newer type. Do NOT replace the old contact controller with a solid state controller unless you want to get out and push!!! Before I stepped my car up to 72 volts and ruggedized the motor I had my 1000 amp Tong Tester clamp-on ammeter pegged hard when I went wide open from a stop, something necessary to keep up with downtown traffic. I followed conventional wisdom and bought an Alltrax 72600 controller. 72 volts, 600 amps. I installed it and the first time I started off, I felt like Fred Flinstone - I needed to pedal, the car was so sluggish. at that time I owned some restaurants and used the c-car for deliveries. On one frequent route, the car could no longer make it up a hill it formerly climbed easily. Something had to be done. Being a nuclear and electronics design engineer, I decided to design a controller bypass board. Being worried that hitting the motor at low speed with 72 volts might twist off the shaft or break the diff, my bypass circuit that looked at the motor voltage, an indicator of speed, and delayed pulling in one of the old contactors until the speed was high enough. This cut the controller completely out. The circuit was activated from a microswitch permissive, positioned so that the switch was thrown when the throttle reached wide open. This worked for several years until I sold the restaurants and the C-cars and retired to my mountain home. John -- John DeArmond jgd@... jgd@...
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Hi John, thanks for the good info and pictures.? Please answer these questions if you can. John
- What was the reason to replace some of the 6 volt batteries with 8 volt options? Was it to increase the supply voltage to the motor or for other accessories?? I have read that up to 72 volts might not hurt the motor but didn't it take a different charger to charge your battery string?? I still have the original charger.
- What amp rating 6 volt lead acid batteries are recommended for a system with the original contactor assembly?? I don't need 40 mile distances but the higher speed would be nice and long life of the batteries too.
- Your solution seems like an overdrive feature that is only activated when the speed/voltage was right to bypass the loss in the controller.? Do you think controlling this with a switch that was disconnected once the gas pedal was no longer pushed?
- If you were to do anything different today would you use lead acid batteries?
On Wednesday, June 29, 2022 at 09:23:49 AM CDT, NeonJohn <jgd@...> wrote:
On 6/17/22 22:33, Lonnie Caldwell via groups.io wrote: > I bought new 6v golf car batteries three years ago at Sam’s Club for >? about $85 each. A friend told me to replace two of them with 8v > batteries. I don’t know about tires but I think you can get tires and >? wheels already assembled at Walmart for about the same price as > tires alone. If you want to get more miles out of it you should > replace the unit that controls the speed with a much newer type. Do NOT replace the old contact controller with a solid state controller unless you want to get out and push!!! Before I stepped my car up to 72 volts and ruggedized the motor I had my 1000 amp Tong Tester clamp-on ammeter pegged hard when I went wide open from a stop, something necessary to keep up with downtown traffic. I followed conventional wisdom and bought an Alltrax 72600 controller.? 72 volts, 600 amps.? I installed it and the first time I started off, I felt like Fred Flinstone - I needed to pedal, the car was so sluggish. at that time I owned some restaurants and used the c-car for deliveries.? On one frequent route, the car could no longer make it up a hill it formerly climbed easily. Something had to be done.? Being a nuclear and electronics design engineer, I decided to design a controller bypass board.? Being worried that hitting the motor at low speed with 72 volts might twist off the shaft or break the diff, my bypass circuit that looked at the motor voltage, an indicator of speed, and delayed pulling in one of the old contactors until the speed was high enough.? This cut the controller completely out.? The circuit was activated from a microswitch permissive, positioned so that the switch was thrown when the throttle reached wide open. This worked for several years until I sold the restaurants and the C-cars and retired to my mountain home. John -- John DeArmond jgd@...jgd@...
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Hi John and All, ? ? If you want power, especially starting up a hill power, low cost and easy, low cost of repair, a contactor controller is the way. ? ? High amp E controllers on more flat land do work at reduced acceleration but if in up and down lands, you need starting power. The stock one with spare contacts is a great way to go and keeps it original.? My friend Bob Rice designed it as the tech guy behind c-car to get it into production.? ?He'd been building EVs for 10 yrs before so knew what it needed, a Forklift contactor controller. Though without a stock controller one can make them easily with upgrades like a reactor/diode series/parallel of the packs and field weakening.? ?I found an 18" length of solid 12gge copper wires shorted across the field terminals with a contactor worked well with my 36vdc version C-car motor and gave a 20% speed increase.? ?? But it can only be used once the motor is going as kills starting torque. Tains, forklifts have these, at least the older DC ones. Jerry
On Wednesday, June 29, 2022, 07:23:48 AM PDT, NeonJohn <jgd@...> wrote:
On 6/17/22 22:33, Lonnie Caldwell via groups.io wrote:
> I bought new 6v golf car batteries three years ago at Sam’s Club for
>? about $85 each. A friend told me to replace two of them with 8v
> batteries. I don’t know about tires but I think you can get tires and
>? wheels already assembled at Walmart for about the same price as
> tires alone. If you want to get more miles out of it you should
> replace the unit that controls the speed with a much newer type.
Do NOT replace the old contact controller with a solid state controller
unless you want to get out and push!!!
Before I stepped my car up to 72 volts and ruggedized the motor
I had my 1000 amp Tong Tester clamp-on ammeter pegged hard when I went
wide open from a stop, something necessary to keep up with downtown traffic.
I followed conventional wisdom and bought an
Alltrax 72600 controller.? 72 volts, 600 amps.? I installed it and the
first time I started off, I felt like Fred Flinstone - I needed to
pedal, the car was so sluggish. at that time I owned some restaurants
and used the c-car for deliveries.? On one frequent route, the car could
no longer make it up a hill it formerly climbed easily.
Something had to be done.? Being a nuclear and electronics design
engineer, I decided to design a controller bypass board.? Being worried
that hitting the motor at low speed with 72 volts might twist off the
shaft or break the diff, my bypass circuit that looked at the motor
voltage, an indicator of speed, and delayed pulling in one of the old
contactors until the speed was high enough.? This cut the controller
completely out.? The circuit was activated from a microswitch
permissive, positioned so that the switch was thrown when the throttle
reached wide open.
This worked for several years until I sold the restaurants and the
C-cars and retired to my mountain home.
John
--
John DeArmond
|
I used interstate batteries (on year 5) and they have been great, but are beginning to show their age.? My next battery might be lithium if the cost continues to decrease. I run Maxtour gt radials. They were super cheap online and much better than I expected.
Hello,
I have a working 1975 citi car that hasn't been used for a few years because I didn't want to buy the wrong batteries and I thought they wouldn't last long due to limited use.? Now that gas it so high I am thinking maybe now is the time.? I have read multiple posts over the last few years about battery options different than the normal golf cart 6v batteries and the required chargers and battery managers.
IF you have current estimates for either tires or a battery set please reply so I can consider putting this car into service again.
thanks,
John
|
Thanks guys for all the good information.? Testing a lead acid with a hydrometer and adding water as needed which was recommended in the old days isn't easily done with todays battery construction.? Is this still needed and is regular testing of the batteries still recommended or have improvements in the batteries and chargers made this less important?? I want to get the most from my investments in batteries.? The lithium sets are used and I don't know how much life these offer.? Trade offs in weight reduction and costs are also trade offs which make this a difficult decision.
On Thursday, June 30, 2022 at 05:44:13 AM CDT, Dave Brice <dbrice3721@...> wrote:
I used interstate batteries (on year 5) and they have been great, but are beginning to show their age.? My next battery might be lithium if the cost continues to decrease. I run Maxtour gt radials. They were super cheap online and much better than I expected.
Hello,
I have a working 1975 citi car that hasn't been used for a few years because I didn't want to buy the wrong batteries and I thought they wouldn't last long due to limited use.? Now that gas it so high I am thinking maybe now is the time.? I have read multiple posts over the last few years about battery options different than the normal golf cart 6v batteries and the required chargers and battery managers.
IF you have current estimates for either tires or a battery set please reply so I can consider putting this car into service again.
thanks,
John
|
Battery maintenance is still as important as it ever was. Modern chargers with an algorithm designed for the battery you choose will minimize the amount of water lost, but it does still happen.? I would avoid used batteries and would look into roy-pow or eco batteries for a lithium option. They offer some packages that would work for citicar, but designed for golf carts.?
Thanks guys for all the good information.? Testing a lead acid with a hydrometer and adding water as needed which was recommended in the old days isn't easily done with todays battery construction.? Is this still needed and is regular testing of the batteries still recommended or have improvements in the batteries and chargers made this less important?? I want to get the most from my investments in batteries.? The lithium sets are used and I don't know how much life these offer.? Trade offs in weight reduction and costs are also trade offs which make this a difficult decision.
On Thursday, June 30, 2022 at 05:44:13 AM CDT, Dave Brice < dbrice3721@...> wrote:
I used interstate batteries (on year 5) and they have been great, but are beginning to show their age.? My next battery might be lithium if the cost continues to decrease. I run Maxtour gt radials. They were super cheap online and much better than I expected. Hello,
I have a working 1975 citi car that hasn't been used for a few years because I didn't want to buy the wrong batteries and I thought they wouldn't last long due to limited use.? Now that gas it so high I am thinking maybe now is the time.? I have read multiple posts over the last few years about battery options different than the normal golf cart 6v batteries and the required chargers and battery managers.
IF you have current estimates for either tires or a battery set please reply so I can consider putting this car into service again.
thanks,
John
|
"Do NOT replace the old contact controller with a solid state controller unless you want to get out and push!!!"
Just an FYI, I replaced my contact controller with an alltrax 7245 about 10 years ago. Using 8 interstate golf cart batteries at 48 volts the car ran great! At the time I was living in a hilly terrain and had no issues climbing hills. The potted accelerator pedal has a micro switch that I repositioned to be closed when the pedal was pushed all the way to the floor. This enables field?weakening only when the pedal was pressed all the way to the floor.
Currently the car is configured roughly the same, except I'm using lithium batteries from a Chevy Volt. I'm also current limiting at 300 amps to extend my range. Not sure I'd ever go back to the old contactors knowing the difference from the old clicky 3 speed mess.
Battery maintenance is still as important as it ever was. Modern chargers with an algorithm designed for the battery you choose will minimize the amount of water lost, but it does still happen.? I would avoid used batteries and would look into roy-pow or eco batteries for a lithium option. They offer some packages that would work for citicar, but designed for golf carts.?
Thanks guys for all the good information.? Testing a lead acid with a hydrometer and adding water as needed which was recommended in the old days isn't easily done with todays battery construction.? Is this still needed and is regular testing of the batteries still recommended or have improvements in the batteries and chargers made this less important?? I want to get the most from my investments in batteries.? The lithium sets are used and I don't know how much life these offer.? Trade offs in weight reduction and costs are also trade offs which make this a difficult decision.
On Thursday, June 30, 2022 at 05:44:13 AM CDT, Dave Brice < dbrice3721@...> wrote:
I used interstate batteries (on year 5) and they have been great, but are beginning to show their age.? My next battery might be lithium if the cost continues to decrease. I run Maxtour gt radials. They were super cheap online and much better than I expected. Hello,
I have a working 1975 citi car that hasn't been used for a few years because I didn't want to buy the wrong batteries and I thought they wouldn't last long due to limited use.? Now that gas it so high I am thinking maybe now is the time.? I have read multiple posts over the last few years about battery options different than the normal golf cart 6v batteries and the required chargers and battery managers.
IF you have current estimates for either tires or a battery set please reply so I can consider putting this car into service again.
thanks,
John
|
On 6/30/22 13:25, Tim Daley wrote: "Do NOT replace the old contact controller with a solid state controller unless you want to get out and push!!!"
Just an FYI, I replaced my contact controller with an alltrax 7245 about 10 years ago. Using 8 interstate golf cart batteries at 48 volts the car ran great! At the time I was living in a hilly terrain and had no issues climbing hills. The potted accelerator pedal has a micro switch that I repositioned to be closed when the pedal was pushed all the way to the floor. This enables fieldweakening only when the pedal was pressed all the way to the floor. If a 450 amp current limited controller (the one you bought) is doing you fine then you really don't have hills!!! Field weakening results in a faster armature speed but it reduces torque by a corresponding amount. Fine for level country. Sucks for hills. In a series motor torque is proportional to the current squared. This is first principles stuff. When you drop your max current from the 1000+ amps the contact controller can supply with good batteries to 450 amps, the motor's torque dropped by the square of the change in current. I repeat, if you're doing fine on 450 amps then you don't have hills. You have bumps in the road and/or you may have the high ratio differential. I had the low ratio (speed) rear end. john -- John DeArmond jgd@... jgd@...
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"if a 450 amp current limited controller (the one you bought) is doing you fine then you really don't have hills!!!"
I have very steep hills, and it does slow down going up the hills a bit, but I'm also current limiting to 300 amps.? ? Sounds like your experience with solid state motor controllers has been bad, probably due to faulty designs or just bad controllers.??
"Field weakening results in a faster armature speed but it reduces torque
by a corresponding amount. Fine for level country.? Sucks for hills."
This is very true!? ?I have the pot set so 3/4 down on the throttle is full speed, I only stomp it when on flat land.??
"I repeat, if you're doing fine on 450 amps then you don't have hills.
You have bumps in the road and/or you may have the high ratio
differential.? I had the low ratio (speed) rear end."
I repeat, Limited to 300 amps, and it does fine.? :D? ?It performs?very similar?to the original?contactors, just not limited to the clunky 3 speeds.??
The later C-Cars got a curtis?solid state controller.? Bob told me they used the contactors because solid state controllers were expensive and not as reliable at the time.? ?They were trying to cheapen the car up and keep them reliable.? I do not know if my cars have the "hilly" option for the rear end or not.? ?I suspect they may as I've never reached the top end speed on the original?contactors as others have.? ?One could use a controller and configure it to do a full controller bypass when on the floor, wouldn't be that hard to do.?
On Fri, Jul 1, 2022 at 2:51 AM NeonJohn < jgd@...> wrote:
On 6/30/22 13:25, Tim Daley wrote:
> "Do NOT replace the old contact controller with a solid state controller
> unless you want to get out and push!!!"
>
> Just an FYI, I replaced my contact controller with an alltrax 7245 about
> 10 years ago. Using 8 interstate golf cart batteries at 48 volts the car
> ran great! At the time I was living in a hilly terrain and had no issues
> climbing hills. The potted accelerator pedal has a micro switch that I
> repositioned to be closed when the pedal was pushed all the way to the
> floor. This enables fieldweakening only when the pedal was pressed all
> the way to the floor.
If a 450 amp current limited controller (the one you bought) is doing
you fine then you really don't have hills!!!
Field weakening results in a faster armature speed but it reduces torque
by a corresponding amount. Fine for level country.? Sucks for hills.
In a series motor torque is proportional to the current squared.? This
is first principles stuff.? When you drop your max current from the
1000+ amps the contact controller can supply with good batteries to 450
amps, the motor's torque dropped by the square of the change in current.
I repeat, if you're doing fine on 450 amps then you don't have hills.
You have bumps in the road and/or you may have the high ratio
differential.? I had the low ratio (speed) rear end.
john
--
John DeArmond
jgd@...
jgd@...
|
On 7/1/22 16:09, Tim Daley wrote: "if a 450 amp current limited controller (the one you bought) is doing
you fine then you really don't have hills!!!"
I have very steep hills, and it does slow down going up the hills a bit, but I'm also current limiting to 300 amps.? ? Sounds like your experience with solid state motor controllers has been bad, probably due to faulty designs or just bad controllers. No, I'm a scientist and engineer. I don't guess, I instrument. The controller was working fine, current limiting just a bit over 650 amps. As you probably know, the Alltrax is probably the best on the market currently. The later C-Cars got a curtis?solid state controller.? Bob told me they used the contactors because solid state controllers were expensive and not as reliable at the time.? ?They were trying to cheapen the car up and keep them reliable.? I do not know if my cars have the "hilly" option for the rear end or not.? ?I suspect they may as I've never reached the top end speed on the original?contactors as others have. ?One could use a controller and configure it to do a full controller bypass when on the floor, wouldn't be that hard to do. I'm pretty positive you have the hilly rear-end and I had the speed rear end. On 72 volts, I reached 55 mph on my radar gun. The car didn't max out - I did. I'm a former race car and motorcycle racer. There wasn't much that would make me back off the throttle except turns. My C-car was so out of control at 55 mph that I chickened out and backed off. It was still accelerating when I chickened out so I believe it would have achieved at least 60 mph. John On Fri, Jul 1, 2022 at 2:51 AM NeonJohn <jgd@... <mailto:jgd@...>> wrote:
On 6/30/22 13:25, Tim Daley wrote:
> "Do NOT replace the old contact controller with a solid state
controller
> unless you want to get out and push!!!"
>
> Just an FYI, I replaced my contact controller with an alltrax
7245 about
> 10 years ago. Using 8 interstate golf cart batteries at 48 volts
the car
> ran great! At the time I was living in a hilly terrain and had no
issues
> climbing hills. The potted accelerator pedal has a micro switch
that I
> repositioned to be closed when the pedal was pushed all the way
to the
> floor. This enables fieldweakening only when the pedal was
pressed all
> the way to the floor.
If a 450 amp current limited controller (the one you bought) is doing
you fine then you really don't have hills!!!
Field weakening results in a faster armature speed but it reduces
torque
by a corresponding amount. Fine for level country.? Sucks for hills.
In a series motor torque is proportional to the current squared.? This
is first principles stuff.? When you drop your max current from the
1000+ amps the contact controller can supply with good batteries to 450
amps, the motor's torque dropped by the square of the change in current.
I repeat, if you're doing fine on 450 amps then you don't have hills.
You have bumps in the road and/or you may have the high ratio
differential.? I had the low ratio (speed) rear end.
john
--
John DeArmond
jgd@... <mailto:jgd@...>
jgd@... <mailto:jgd@...>
-- John DeArmond jgd@... jgd@...
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Frankly, 35 MPH is scary? :)
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hill axle 6.83 pumkin is big & round, speed axle 5.17 pumkin smaller, sort
of oval. spped axle was only shipped to flat states
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NeonJohn