Re: Body repair, was got to sell my 78 Citi-car?? Baltimore MD
Hi Bart, Jacob and All, ? Jacob has it correct on Leaf modules and how to use them and the c car at low voltage is a heavy current user which Leaf modules don't do well at. But you'll end up paying more than for Volt modules for the same performance and Volt a far longer life.. ? Even Renault who owned part of the battery plant with Nissan switched to LG cells making Nissan rather mad.?? The only cells/modules you don't need to use a BMS with is the modules made with 30amp LG cells like the Volt plus the high output currents the ccar needs it handles well.? ?I'm on 2.5 yrs without any deviation of cells at all even with charging abuse. Tesla modules are marginal in a ccar unless you use 4 of them, 20kwh with contactor controller or an electronic controller with 2, 10kwh.? And you'll need to hack the BMS which I think is available. The others should have a BMS too which are readily available for 48vdc packs. I'm using Bolt modules on my next project but they are 36vdc modules? with LG cells so an E controller at 72vdc would be the ticket. Jerry Dycus
On Saturday, December 26, 2020, 01:36:24 PM PST, Jacob <jacobtimothyfield@...> wrote:
I've used Leaf batteries with the CCar before, so I can speak to my experience with them.
I wouldn't say not to use Leaf batteries at all, but I would say you need to know about some caveats. The cheapest (1st generation) leaf batteries you can find on eBay are often severely degraded, with perhaps 40-60% of their original capacity. In addition, they do not handle overcurrent well, and will swell. You can use 1st generation batteries, but you must make sure you have enough modules in parallel (I would say at least 3, and more like 6 if you want any sort of range) and a proper battery management system to ensure they are treated correctly.
Second generation Leaf batteries would work better--they will have more remaining capacity and should handle things a little better. However, you'll still need to make sure you have enough in parallel (probably also about 3) because they won't be able to handle much overcurrent safely.
That all being said--if I was to build modern batteries for a CCar again, I would get batteries salvaged from a Chevy Volt. I've read they are able to handle high charge/discharge currents, so perfect for a smaller battery for the CCar. They're also not much more expensive than the Leaf batteries, and probably most Volt batteries you buy will have little to no degradation of the capacity. Chevy ensured the Volt batteries would last a long time by programming the Volt to only use about 80% of the actual capacity.
There's one more option I'd recommend if you have the money: Tesla battery modules are pretty expensive, but you could power a CCar with just two of them and have decent range -- or add more for more power / more range.
All of the above will need a BMS (battery management system) -- you can get away without one but you'd be running a risk of prematurely killing your battery pack at best -- and at worst, your battery pack going up in flames, taking the CCar and anything around it with it.
- Jacob
Jerry
You said to avoid Leaf batteries, can you explain?
Bart
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Re: Body repair, was got to sell my 78 Citi-car?? Baltimore MD
I've used Leaf batteries with the CCar before, so I can speak to my experience with them.
I wouldn't say not to use Leaf batteries at all, but I would say you need to know about some caveats. The cheapest (1st generation) leaf batteries you can find on eBay are often severely degraded, with perhaps 40-60% of their original capacity. In addition, they do not handle overcurrent well, and will swell. You can use 1st generation batteries, but you must make sure you have enough modules in parallel (I would say at least 3, and more like 6 if you want any sort of range) and a proper battery management system to ensure they are treated correctly.
Second generation Leaf batteries would work better--they will have more remaining capacity and should handle things a little better. However, you'll still need to make sure you have enough in parallel (probably also about 3) because they won't be able to handle much overcurrent safely.
That all being said--if I was to build modern batteries for a CCar again, I would get batteries salvaged from a Chevy Volt. I've read they are able to handle high charge/discharge currents, so perfect for a smaller battery for the CCar. They're also not much more expensive than the Leaf batteries, and probably most Volt batteries you buy will have little to no degradation of the capacity. Chevy ensured the Volt batteries would last a long time by programming the Volt to only use about 80% of the actual capacity.
There's one more option I'd recommend if you have the money: Tesla battery modules are pretty expensive, but you could power a CCar with just two of them and have decent range -- or add more for more power / more range.
All of the above will need a BMS (battery management system) -- you can get away without one but you'd be running a risk of prematurely killing your battery pack at best -- and at worst, your battery pack going up in flames, taking the CCar and anything around it with it.
- Jacob
Jerry
You said to avoid Leaf batteries, can you explain?
Bart
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Re: Body repair, was got to sell my 78 Citi-car?? Baltimore MD
Jerry
You said to avoid Leaf batteries, can you explain?
Bart
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Re: Body repair, was got to sell my 78 Citi-car?? Baltimore MD
Don’t know if anyone has mentioned, but that back panel and left rear quarte should still be available from CB down in Winter Haven, FL.?
?
?
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From: [email protected] On Behalf Of jerry freedomev via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2020 5:22 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [c-car] Body repair, was got to sell my 78 Citi-car ?? Baltimore MD
?
That is? some extensive damage.
?The front isn't available so what I'd do is take a piece of FG, alum or SS and make a stripe with it from the bumper to the windshield wide enough and glue it with 3M 5200
or other suitable glue, epoxy.
The other pieces I'd make a ply/wood backing, glue in? and fill in with FG and fair, paint the whole car.? Or make a FG piece and butt block glue it in, fair.
These would be the fastest, lowest cost ways.
Some of the other panels are available , just not the front.
The original contactor set up works well and has the power you need a 800amp electronic controller to match.
And they are rebuildable if needed.? Not a bad idea to buy some spare contacts ahead of time.? A group buy might be in order to get quantity price.
You might want to change the motor brushes and maybe brush holder as the brush leads get weak with age. And clean the commutator then break the brushes in.??
Since in there might as well replace the bearing and have a near new motor.? All up only $100 in parts and a couple hrs including R+R.
You'll have significantly better performance with used EV lithium batteries,. especially Volt, other LG cell? modules, not Leaf.? And if shopped well or buy a Volt pack,
as cheap as new lead just 30% of the weight.? With the lighter weight an E controller can be smaller, 400-600amp.
I'm not on the facebook list as many others are not so if someone wants could put this up there..??
On Friday, December 25, 2020, 03:42:52 PM PST, bw.hal via groups.io <bw.hal@...> wrote:
Hello everyone,
I am the one who bought Bob's Citicar. It is a 3.5hp, 48V, 1976 model (2134). Ideally I would like to restore it to as close to original as possible as most of the originals electronics are still intact(have not tested them yet), but it does have some major
body damage to the plastic. I included some photos below, but these are a couple weeks old from when I first got the car into my garage. I have since cleaned the entire outside and have moved on to cleaning the interior. I am already a part of the Facebook
groups and this list.
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Re: Ccar owner in St Pete.
No but I got yellow 74 in St. Pete Fred
On Saturday, December 26, 2020, 02:51, jerry freedomev via groups.io <freedomev@...> wrote:
Hi all, ? ?Does anyone know the artist woman who owns a running red CCar in St Pete???? Jerry
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Body repair, was got to sell my 78 Citi-car?? Baltimore MD
Hi ?? and All, That is? some extensive damage. ?The front isn't available so what I'd do is take a piece of FG, alum or SS and make a stripe with it from the bumper to the windshield wide enough and glue it with 3M 5200 or other suitable glue, epoxy. The other pieces I'd make a ply/wood backing, glue in? and fill in with FG and fair, paint the whole car.? Or make a FG piece and butt block glue it in, fair. These would be the fastest, lowest cost ways. Some of the other panels are available , just not the front. The original contactor set up works well and has the power you need a 800amp electronic controller to match. And they are rebuildable if needed.? Not a bad idea to buy some spare contacts ahead of time.? A group buy might be in order to get quantity price. You might want to change the motor brushes and maybe brush holder as the brush leads get weak with age. And clean the commutator then break the brushes in.?? Since in there might as well replace the bearing and have a near new motor.? All up only $100 in parts and a couple hrs including R+R. You'll have significantly better performance with used EV lithium batteries,. especially Volt, other LG cell? modules, not Leaf.? And if shopped well or buy a Volt pack, as cheap as new lead just 30% of the weight.? With the lighter weight an E controller can be smaller, 400-600amp. I'm not on the facebook list as many others are not so if someone wants could put this up there..?? ? Jerry Dycus?
On Friday, December 25, 2020, 03:42:52 PM PST, bw.hal via groups.io <bw.hal@...> wrote:
Hello everyone,
I am the one who bought Bob's Citicar. It is a 3.5hp, 48V, 1976 model (2134). Ideally I would like to restore it to as close to original as possible as most of the originals electronics are still intact(have not tested them yet), but it does have some major body damage to the plastic. I included some photos below, but these are a couple weeks old from when I first got the car into my garage. I have since cleaned the entire outside and have moved on to cleaning the interior. I am already a part of the Facebook groups and this list.
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Hi all, ? ?Does anyone know the artist woman who owns a running red CCar in St Pete???? Jerry
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Re: Got to sell my 78 Citi-car?? Baltimore MD
Hello everyone,
I am the one who bought Bob's Citicar. It is a 3.5hp, 48V, 1976 model (2134). Ideally I would like to restore it to as close to original as possible as most of the originals electronics are still intact(have not tested them yet), but it does have some major body damage to the plastic. I included some photos below, but these are a couple weeks old from when I first got the car into my garage. I have since cleaned the entire outside and have moved on to cleaning the interior. I am already a part of the Facebook groups and this list.
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Re: AiLi Voltage Ammeter Current Meter
Thanks, I am starting to see the error in my math.
Sounds like this capacity meter is not what I am looking for.
?Thanks for the help.
Neil
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Re: AiLi Voltage Ammeter Current Meter
You don't hage a 2200 amp hour pack. If you have 10 220 amp hour batteries
you have a 60 volt 220 amp hour pack. At c-car current they won't give you
220 amp hours anyway, more like 120 if you are lucky. Batteris in series,
volts add, amp hours stay the same. Batteries in paralel, amp hours add,
volts stay the same. 350 amps is low. My c-car would pin the meter at 800
amps.
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Re: AiLi Voltage Ammeter Current Meter
I think my math is off, I got to 2200 AH’s, by adding 10 batteries at 220 AH’s per battery.
I just added the AH’s together as the batteries were in series.
I will do some more investigating at add to this.
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Re: AiLi Voltage Ammeter Current Meter
2200Ah seems pretty unlikely -- that means with 60V you have a 132kWh battery, larger than Tesla's largest battery pack. Check again?
As for the shunt--you will probably want more than 350A capability. If I recall correctly CCars will regularly draw more power than that when accelerating -- though, the shunt can probably handle more amperage for a certain amount of time. See if you can find ratings for it.
Finally, doubt the meter will run higher than 999Ah, because that's probably all the space they have on the readout--but again, you definitely don't need 999Ah unless you actually have a 132kWh battery to put in your CCar :)
I still have not got final approval from the Provincial Government Insurance about plates for my 1980 Comutacar, but am still looking and planning projects.
I saw some reference to these for various applications.
I am looking at the 350 amp shunt, but with my 60 volt system I would be around 2200 AH’s.
The meter is rated at 999 AH’s, would it work with a higher capacity?
Hopefully, I explained my question thoroughly and am not asking too much too soon.
?Thanks again,
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AiLi Voltage Ammeter Current Meter
I still have not got final approval from the Provincial Government Insurance about plates for my 1980 Comutacar, but am still looking and planning projects.
I saw some reference to these for various applications.
I am looking at the 350 amp shunt, but with my 60 volt system I would be around 2200 AH’s.
The meter is rated at 999 AH’s, would it work with a higher capacity?
Hopefully, I explained my question thoroughly and am not asking too much too soon.
?Thanks again,
|
No new updates.
Cleaned up the batteries and cables, batteries should be replaced but I want to confirm I can plate it first.
I have supplied our Government Insuruwith everything they asked for.
But, until I get their blessing I have no insurance.
I am trying to be patient, But.
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Re: Electrical help ......question
Corrected a typo in the First Speed section. The F/R contactor is moved (in the direction of the F-N-R switch) not the S/P.? Tom Keenan
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On Nov 30, 2020, at 4:52 PM, tnaneek via groups.io <tnaneek@...> wrote:
? The way the original contactor control setup worked was a bit complicated, but once you get what’s happening, you can begin to troubleshoot individual parts.? There are three main power handling parts: the F/R contactor (forward/reverse - tall one), the S/P contactor (series/parallel - shorter one) and a low speed resistor solenoid (looks like an old car starter solenoid can).? Starting from a ‘key off’ position, the three main parts are in their ‘resting’ position. F/R in ‘neutral’ (not up or down - centered), S/P in the Series configuration (48 volts, as opposed to 24 volts), and the low speed resistor can is open (not bypassing).?
Note: the S/P is normally 48v so the charger can charge the entire pack at 48v with no 12v control power applied (key off).?
Once the key is on, and the parking brake switch is closed, power will go to the S/P contactor, setting up 24 volts (used in ‘first’ and ‘second’ speed).?
When the accelerator is pushed down to the first speed, the F/R contactor will go either up (reverse) or down (forward) depending on the position of the dash direction switch, and send 24v to the motor via the low speed resistor.? As the accelerator is pressed to the second position, power is applied to the bypass can, putting full 24v to the motor (as opposed to a lower voltage and current that is seen in first routing through the resistor).? In third, the S/P contactor is de-powered, which allows the S/P to go to the 48v position. As the bypass can is also powered, full 48v power is sent directly to the motor.? A note of caution: if the tall contactor assembly is forced down by pressing on the moving contact tie screws, the motor will receive power, as the tall contactor acts as the main cut off contactor. This will make the vehicle move unexpectedly, and could cause problems if you’re not ready for it. Priority one should be to make sure the brakes work before attempting to make it move under its own power.?
Tom Keenan On Nov 30, 2020, at 3:19 PM, Roy Egan via groups.io <lowbid2001@...> wrote:
?put six 8volt batteres in
turned key ....no surprise....no movement
have seen parking brake has lockout switch?
seen automotive solenoid.... what happens when you jump solenoid?
can you bypass lockout switch and get car to move?
course have no interest in getting electrocuted here?
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Re: Electrical help ......question
The way the original contactor control setup worked was a bit complicated, but once you get what’s happening, you can begin to troubleshoot individual parts.? There are three main power handling parts: the F/R contactor (forward/reverse - tall one), the S/P contactor (series/parallel - shorter one) and a low speed resistor solenoid (looks like an old car starter solenoid can).? Starting from a ‘key off’ position, the three main parts are in their ‘resting’ position. F/R in ‘neutral’ (not up or down - centered), S/P in the Series configuration (48 volts, as opposed to 24 volts), and the low speed resistor can is open (not bypassing).?
Note: the S/P is normally 48v so the charger can charge the entire pack at 48v with no 12v control power applied (key off).?
Once the key is on, and the parking brake switch is closed, power will go to the S/P contactor, setting up 24 volts (used in ‘first’ and ‘second’ speed).? When the accelerator is pushed down to the first speed, the S/P contactor will go either up (reverse) or down (forward) and send 24v to the motor via the low speed resistor.? As the accelerator is pressed to the second position, power is applied to the bypass can, putting full 24v to the motor (as opposed to a lower voltage and current that is seen in first routing through the resistor).? In third, the S/P contactor is de-powered, which allows the S/P to go to the 48v position. As the bypass can is also powered, full 48v power is sent directly to the motor.? A note of caution: if the tall contactor assembly is forced down by pressing on the moving contact tie screws, the motor will receive power, as the tall contactor acts as the main cut off contactor. This will make the vehicle move unexpectedly, and could cause problems if you’re not ready for it. Priority one should be to make sure the brakes work before attempting to make it move under its own power.?
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On Nov 30, 2020, at 3:19 PM, Roy Egan via groups.io <lowbid2001@...> wrote:
?put six 8volt batteres in
turned key ....no surprise....no movement
have seen parking brake has lockout switch?
seen automotive solenoid.... what happens when you jump solenoid?
can you bypass lockout switch and get car to move?
course have no interest in getting electrocuted here?
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Re: Electrical help ......question
put six 8volt batteres in
turned key ....no surprise....no movement
have seen parking brake has lockout switch?
seen automotive solenoid.... what happens when you jump solenoid?
can you bypass lockout switch and get car to move?
course have no interest in getting electrocuted here?
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Re: Electrical help ......we got the manuals
with the car
now to pull out a genius beer or two and figure this thing out
Will this car move with batteries? ....all dash wiring off the 12volt and for monitoring?
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I have done a bit more research and tomorrow I am going to start removing the batteries and cleaning them and checking all connections.
I will post some more pictures when I get started.
I am still waiting patiently (?) to hear back about licence plates.
More to follow.
?Thanks again?
Neil
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Re: Electrical help ......Happy Thanksgiving
Holy Cats!
You are going ?to have fun with that. When I get off work I’ll send you a link to the wiring diagrams. The thicker orange wire is in the charging circuit, it leads to the charging gauge...the green goes to the charger...the others...not certain?
Tony Perreault?
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On Nov 25, 2020, at 12:17 PM, Roy Egan via groups.io <lowbid2001@...> wrote:
?ok back on the trail after yard ornament stage?
would like to see if this thing moves
hot 12v supersized Mercedes battery and turn key lights turn on and wiper move
wiper does not shut off........dash wiring looks a mess....
Have taken pictures engine bay guessing wires may be charging related
was hoping someone has a feel for commuta car wiring ...got commuta
pic one
1. two wires bottom right corner yellow and green?
guessing those would go to charging system quite possibly?
green obviously negative?
yellow one ....they spliced to a black wire with female small square end?
2.orange capped wires know they are from side plug for plug in charging? three wires
pic two
3. yellow and orange with knot and taped together in second attachment
see there are already one set yellow and orange connecting to shifting towers
tried see if there were juice to these two wires although did not go to ground separately to see if turning on switch activates them 12v
here is what we have going on around fuse box picture 3
and 3 wires hanging around picture 4
have smart phone as well?
Thanks for any help
Roy 508 472 4207
Massachusetts
<commutaelec.jpg>
<commutaelec1.jpg>
<commutaelec2.jpg>
<commutaelec3.jpg>
--
Cheers
Tony P
1980 Orange Comuta-car?
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Peter Crisitello
Neil
Roy Egan
Tony399